Quoting bhill (Reply 46): As part of the settlement, the United States did not admit legal liability but agreed to pay on an ex gratia basis US$61.8 million, amounting to $213,103.45 per passenger, in compensation to the families of the Iranian victims."

Something tells me that we will find a similiar solution in this case, but not now, maybe in 10 years.

Quoting moo (Reply 49): The issue had to go to a *court* for the US to come to a settlement on an issue that was indisputably of their fault, and yet they refused to accept legal liability...

OF COURSE it went to court...that is what aggrieved parties do to get resolution!

But this thread is about Col. Putin...not the US....right?

Neener Neener...

Quoting bhill (Reply 51): OF COURSE it went to court...that is what aggrieved parties do to get resolution!

Except that the comment was made that:

Quoting bhill (Reply 39): Except when one of them did shoot down a civilian airliner, we fessed up.

If you (being the US) really had "fessed up" then there would have been no need to dispute indisputable facts or for Iran to have to take the issue to court, because you (being the US) would have dealt with the situation in a mature manner.

Quoting bhill (Reply 51): But this thread is about Col. Putin...not the US....right?

No, this thread is about Russia vetoing a UN resolution.

As the Iran Air Flight 655 case shows, the correct course of action is for the case to be taken to the ICJ - there is no need for a UN tribunal on the matter.

Quoting Sydscott (Reply 10): Russia vetoing this is effectively Russia denying Justice to the families of the victims who deserve justice and closure on this issue. And if the Russians truly have nothing to hide you'd think they would support its establishment in order to clear themselves of involvement / make sure blame was apportioned to the appropriate people who actually did it.

Please - don't trust everything you hear in the Western news. This is politics. Maybe they just don't want people to be in certain areas...not necessarily related with MH17.

Just some more facts.

About 27 civil airliners have been shot down since the Wright brothers first flight;

1. On August 24, 1938 - during the Second Sino-Japanese War - a DC-2 (the Kweilin), jointly operated by China National Aviation Corporation (CNAC) and Pan American, carrying 18 passengers and crew, was forced down by Japanese aircraft just north of Hong Kong in Chinese territory.

2. Junkers Ju 52-3/mge "Kaleva" OH-ALL was a civilian passenger plane operated by the Finnish carrier Aero O/Y, shot down by two Soviet Ilyushin DB-3 bombers on June 14, 1940, while en route from Tallinn, Estonia, to Helsinki, Finland.

3. On October 29, 1940, a DC-2 named the Chungking, operated by CNAC, was destroyed by Japanese fighters at Changyi Airfield, Yunnan, China, as it landed.

4. On March 3, 1942, a KLM Douglas DC-3 (Dakota) airliner operated by KNILM on a flight from Bandung, Netherlands East Indies, to Broome, Australia, was attacked by three Japanese Mitsubishi A6M fighter planes; PK-AFV crash-landed on a beach near Broome. Four passengers died.

5. On 1 June 1943 a KLM DC3 operating as flight BOAC 777 from Lisbon's Portela Airport in neutral Portugal, to Whitchurch near Bristol, England, was attacked by eight German Junkers Ju 88 fighter bombers and crashed into the Bay of Biscay, resulting in the deaths of all aboard including the English actor Leslie Howard.

6. On July 23, 1954 a four-engined propeller-driven Douglas DC-4 airliner operated by Cathay Pacific Airways, en route from Bangkok to Hong Kong was shot down by People's Liberation Army Air Force Lavochkin La-7 fighters off the coast of Hainan Island; ten on board died.

7. On July 27, 1955 El Al Flight 402, a Lockheed L-149 Constellation, registered 4X-AKC, was on an international passenger flight from Vienna, Austria, to Tel Aviv, Israel, via Istanbul, Turkey. The aircraft strayed into Bulgarian airspace, refused to land, and was shot down by two Bulgarian MiG-15 jet fighters several kilometers away from the Greece border near Petrich, Bulgaria. All seven crew and fifty-one passengers on board the airliner died.

8. On February 21, 1973 Libyan Airlines Flight 114 a regularly scheduled flight from Tripoli, Libya, via Benghazi to Cairo operated by a Boeing 727 became lost in bad weather and suffered equipment failure over northern Egypt. The aircraft entered Israeli-controlled airspace over the Sinai Peninsula, was intercepted by two Israeli F-4 Phantom II fighters, refused to land, and was shot down. Of the 113 people on board, 5 survived, including the co-pilot.

9. On April 20, 1978, Korean Air Lines Flight 902 a civilian Boeing 707 airliner was shot down near Murmansk by Soviet Sukhoi Su-15 fighters, after it violated Soviet airspace and failed to respond to Soviet interceptors. Two passengers died in the incident. 107 passengers and crew survived after the plane made an emergency landing on a frozen lake.

10 and 11. Two Air Rhodesia Vickers Viscounts Flight 825 and 827, both scheduled flights between Kariba and Salisbury, Rhodesia (now Harare, Zimbabwe), were shot down on September 3, 1978 and february 12, 1979 by Zimbabwe People's Revolutionary Army (ZIPRA) guerrillas using Strela 2 missiles. Eighteen of the fifty-six passengers of the 1st Vickers Viscount survived the crash, but ten of the survivors were killed by the guerrillas at the crash site. All 59 occupants of the 2nd Viscount died.

12. On 8 February 1980 a Linhas Aéreas de Angola Yakovlev Yak-40, was shot down near Matala, Angola with the loss of all on board (4 crew and 15 passengers). ICAO reported a sudden situation took place in response to actions by a foreign aircraft and accidentally the Yak-40 was hit and crashed.

13. On September 1, 1983 Korean Air Lines Flight 007 a Boeing 747 was shot down by a Soviet Su-15TM fighter near Moneron Island just west of Sakhalin island. All 269 passengers and crew, including US congressman Larry McDonald, perished. An official investigation concluded that the course deviation was likely caused by pilot error in configuring their air navigation system.

14. On February 24, 1985, the Polar 3, a Dornier Do 228 research airplane of the Alfred Wegener Institute, was shot down by guerrillas of the Polisario Front over West Sahara. All three crew members died. Polar 3 was on its way back from Antarctica and had taken off in Dakar, Senegal, to reach Arrecife, Canary Islands.

15. On October 14, 1987, a Lockheed L-100 Hercules registered HB-ILF, owned by the Swiss company Zimex Aviation and operated on behalf of the ICRC was shot down about four minutes after departing at Cuito airport, Angola. It was hit by an unknown projectile fired by unknown combattants during the Angolan Civil War. Four crew members and two passengers died.

16. On November 6, 1987, an Air Malawi Shorts Skyvan 7Q-YMB was shot down while on a domestic flight from Blantyre, Malawi to Lilongwe. The flight plan took it over Mozambique where the Mozambican Civil War was in progress. The aircraft was shot down near the Mozambican town of Ulongwe. The eight passengers and two crew on board died.

17. On July 3, 1988 Iran Air Flight 655 an Airbus A300 was a commercial flight operated by Iran Air from Bandar Abbas, Iran to Dubai, UAE. The aircraft was shot down by the U.S. Navy Ticonderoga-class guided missile cruiser USS Vincennes when it fired a RIM-66 Standard surface-to-air missile. The airplane was destroyed between Bandar Abbas and Dubai; all 290 passengers and crew died. The Airbus A300, was allegedly misidentified as an Iranian F-14.

18. On December 8, 1988 a Douglas DC-7 chartered by the US Agency for International Development was shot down over Western Sahara by the Polisario Front, resulting in 5 deaths. Leaders of the movement said the plane was mistaken for a Moroccan Lockheed C-130. The aircraft was to be used to spray insecticide to control a locust outbreak.

19. and 20. In September 1993, two airliners belonging to Transair Georgia were shot down by missiles and gunfire in Sukhumi, Abkhazia, Georgia. The first, a Tupolev Tu-134, was shot down on September 21, 1993 by a missile during landing approach. The second a Tupolev Tu-154, was shot down a day later also during approach.

21. On 6 April 1994, a Dassault Falcon 50 carrying Rwandan president Juvénal Habyarimana and Burundian president Cyprien Ntaryamira was shot down as it prepared to land in Kigali, Rwanda. Both presidents died. Responsibility for the attack is disputed.

22. On September 29, 1998 Lionair Flight 602, operated by an Antonov An-24RV, crashed into the sea off the north-western coast of Sri Lanka. The aircraft departed Jaffna-Palaly Air Force Base on a flight to Colombo and disappeared from radar screens just after the pilot had reported depressurization. Initial reports indicated that the plane had been shot down by Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam rebels. All seven crew and forty-eight passengers died.

23. On 4 October 2001, a Tu-154 crashed in the Black Sea. The plane was hit by a S-200 surface-to-air missile, fired from the Crimea peninsula during a Ukrainian military exercise. All on board (66 passengers and 12 crew) died. The President of Ukraine Leonid Kuchma and several high commanders of the military expressed their condolences to the relatives of the victims. The Ukrainian Government paid out $200,000 in compensation to the families of every passenger and crew who died when the plane crashed. They paid out a total of $15 million in compensation for the accident.

24. On November 22, 2003, shortly after takeoff from Baghdad, an Airbus A300 cargo plane owned by European Air Transport (a subsidiary of the German express-mail service DHL) was struck on the left wing tip by a surface-to-air missile. Severe wing damage resulted in a fire and complete loss of hydraulic flight control systems. The pilots used differential engine thrust to fly the plane back to Baghdad, and were able to land without any injuries or major aircraft damage.

25.On January 9, 2007, an Antonov An-26 crashed while attempting a landing at Balad Air Base in Iraq. Although poor weather is blamed by officials, witnesses claim they saw the plane being shot down and the Islamic Army in Iraq claimed responsibility. Thirty-four of the thirty-five civilian passengers on board died.

26. On March 23, 2007, a TransAVIAexport Airlines Ilyushin Il-76 airplane crashed in outskirts of Mogadishu, Somalia, during the 2007 Battle of Mogadishu. Witnesses, including a Shabelle reporter, claim they saw the plane shot down, and Belarus has initiated an anti-terrorist investigation, but Somalia insists the crash was accidental. All eleven Belarusian civilians on board died.

27. On July 17, 2014, Malaysia Airlines Flight 17, a Boeing 777-200ER, flying from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur, crashed near Donetsk in the eastern part of Ukraine. All 283 passengers and 15 crew died when the plane crashed from roughly 33,000 ft.

Interesting to note no. 23 and the Ukrainian Government admitting shooting down the Tu-154 by accident.

Quoting Marvinhsv (Reply 53): Please - don't trust everything you hear in the Western news.

Hence the importance of a tribunal where everyone gets a chance to look at the facts and decide. As we all know, airline crash investigations typically have formal hearings.

For Boeing or Airbus (or the involved airline), as an example, to lobby against a public hearing after any crash...would be suspicious and self-serving, regardless of what any media outlet says. That's what Putin has done here.

Quoting Western727 (Reply 55): For Boeing or Airbus (or the involved airline), as an example, to lobby against a public hearing after any crash...would be suspicious and self-serving, regardless of what any media outlet says. That's what Putin has done here.

Not really - Boeing or Airbus can be sued, Putin can't. He just want to keep the anti-Western politics alive. If his country is being punished with sanctions he creates his own. Russia (and mostly China, too) block most of the decisions made in NY - simply because they don't want to support Western ideology. They don't have anything to hide (well, of course but not everytime and not necessarily related with MH17).

The chance of Russia or Ukraine being in charge for that crime is exactly 50/50.

Quoting PlaneInsomniac (Thread starter): As expected, Russia has vetoed an international UN-backed tribunal on MH17, which had been proposed by Australia, Belgium, Malaysia, the Netherlands and Ukraine

Not surprising.

Perhaps those nations that lost nationals in MH17, ought to get together and 'veto' the FIFA Football World Cup in 2018 being held in Russia. Thousands of fans flying into places like Volgograd and Sochi will have to fly over Ukrainian airspace; so how does Putin suggest these fans do so safely ?

Quoting pipeafcr (Reply 41): Sir you sound like a southern conservative.

Quoting pipeafcr (Reply 41): Moderators please act upon the rights bestowed and close the thread.

And you sound like Putin himself. "No one should be allowed to discuss the truth"... the attitude of Mother Russia and its cronies is clear: censorship is better than an open discussion.

Quoting SelseyBill (Reply 57): Perhaps those nations that lost nationals in MH17, ought to get together and 'veto' the FIFA Football World Cup in 2018 being held in Russia. Thousands of fans flying into places like Volgograd and Sochi will have to fly over Ukrainian airspace; so how does Putin suggest these fans do so safely ?

         That "veto" should have been done a year ago!

Quoting B747400ERF (Reply 44): I notice the pictures in your profile, your agenda is quite obvious, you are not waiting for anything your mind is already made up. same with all the others here defending the indefensible and ignoring all the facts.

Indeed. One would think they'd be more subtle with their profile, if trying to influence public opinion (possibly for a living)....

Three pictures in my profile (from the time when we still discussed MH17 tragedy) made you think that I had some agenda?
This is not correct.
I fall into a category of Russians who actually accept a 50/50 probability. Might be rebels - or Ukrainians (the UA army was completely out of control a year ago.)
All what I question is the investigation.

We have 81 threads about KUL-PEK flight.
And none in existence regarding MH17.
Because... why? Is all clear? How so?

I don't even start a threat about Almaz-Antey proposed full-scale experiment.
I am forced to discuss it elsewhere but not on A-Net.
All voices casting doubt here were harassed - and all gone.

This is just not right.

Quoting pylon101 (Reply 60): I fall into a category of Russians who actually accept a 50/50 probability.

Try 100/0 and then you might be getting the picture.

Russia needs to own up and admit their fault, so the families of the people who perished can move on. But Russia under Putler is not going to do that anytime soon. A leopard never changes its spots...

It always makes me laugh that Russia demands respect. The thing is, respect has to be earned, and Russia's actions do nothing to earn that respect.

the Russians are known for shooting planes down. Lives don't seem to be valuable to them. Look at KE007... It's such a shame. Most any other nation in the world would acknowledge it, offer their sincerest condolences and offer restitution too. Apparently the government is trying to paint a guiltless face. The irony is their arrogance makes them more guilty!

Quoting upwardfacing (Reply 5): Put in the same place, any other of the P5 members would have done exactly the same.

Putin put himself into a place of culpability.

Quoting pylon101 (Reply 60): I fall into a category of Russians who actually accept a 50/50 probability.

Ah yes. The new tactic of, "I'm open to the possibility....but will actively argue against evidence supporting it."

Quoting pylon101 (Reply 60): I don't even start a threat about Almaz-Antey proposed full-scale experiment

They don't have to wait for anybody to put up that experiment. Let them spend the funds and put up the show. They can invite anybody they want. And present their evidence to whoever they wish. Nobody is stopping them.

Unfortunately for them, nobody believes them and the sanctions that will sink their business won't end because even internet bloggers are already shooting them down:


The issues with Almaz-Antey claims

There are two major issues with the statements.

1.The statement the 9M38M1 missile is only in use by Ukraine is not true. A BUK system can use 3 type of missiles. The older 9M38 (not in use anymore) , the 9M38M1 (used by both Russia and Ukraine) and the newer 9M317 ( in use by Russia but not by Ukraine). The 9M317 can easily be recognized as it has shorter chords (the vins located on the missile). There are many pictures showing the 9M38M1 missile is still being used by the Russian Armed Forces.
Photos posted on Russian social media show the 9M38M1 missile in active duty near the Ukraine border.For a detailed description of the BUK system see this post.At June 3 Bellingcat posted a new blog with evidence Russia does still use the 9M38M1 missile. Missile crates clearly show 9M38M1.

2. The second issue is the launch location. Russian MoD presented satellite pictures of the area close to Zaroschinskoe. The photo shows a couple of BUk systems. However Bellingcat showed that these photos were fake. Investigators of German Correct!v went to the village. Nobody saw a BUK in the area.At May 12 Novaya Gazeta again publishes on MH17. This time an expert explains it is impossible a missile was shot from Zaroschinskoe. A 9M38M1 will use the closest route towards the target. As MH17 flew in a straight line, the shortest route will target the middle section of the righthand side of the fuselage. The missile would explode about 17-10 meters in front of the aircraft. This means the righthand side engine would be destroyed and the fueltanks of the wing on the right would explode. This did not happen.


If a handful of internet bloggers can discredit them with basic geometry, imagine what the experts will do.... Oh and the "Ukrainian Buk" theory comes after months of the Russian government trying to convince the world that a Ukrainian Su-25 shot down a civilian airliner. The rest of the world sees these theories for exactly what they are. "Let's run it up the flagpole and see if it catches on." Can't convince the world that the Ukrainian air force did it? Well then, just tell them the Ukrainian Army did it. I suppose next we'll hear there were Urkainian terrorists on the flight itself running a suicide false-flag operation. You heard it hear first!

Quoting pylon101 (Reply 60): We have 81 threads about KUL-PEK flight. And none in existence regarding MH17. Because... why? Is all clear? How so?

Because those of us that are aviation enthusiasts on this site are sick of paid bloggers and Putin nationalists ruining any and every discussion where Russia might be implicated.

[Edited 2015-07-30 13:05:47]

I think that obstructing investigation and court assessment is unethical. Not to mention all the misinformation that has been spread during the last year.

If anybody was looking for more evidence, I think the above actions speak volumes.

May the innocent victims rest in peace and the their loved ones find some closure, eventually.

Quoting bhill (Reply 39): Except when one of them did shoot down a civilian airliner, we fessed up.

I know it has been mentioned, but we never did "fess up" to shooting down. The U.S. has never formally apologized to Iran. Settling in court without acknowledging any wrongdoing is not the same as admitting a mistake was made. Look, I think Putin is a terrible leader and would never trust any of the BS propaganda coming out of Russia, but as an American, I really can't get all that mad at Russia for not wanting to admit any wrongdoing in the shoot down of MH17 when my country refused to do the same. If anything, the downing of IR655 is more egregious because it was undisputedly downed by US military personnel, despite the fact that EP-IBU was squawking in Mode III, was in Iranian airspace and the USS Vincennes travelled into Iranian waters to shoot down the plane. I'm not trying to be a Russian apologist here, but it has not been confirmed that MH17 was downed by Russians, only that Russian made equipment was used to shoot it down. Really, the US should admit wrongdoing in the downing of IR655 and Russia should do the same with MH17, that's IMHO the honorable thing to do, especially for the innocent people who lost their lives.

Quoting olddominion727 (Reply 62): Russians are known for shooting planes down. Lives don't seem to be valuable to them. Look at KE007

This has been discussed so many times - to the American users: please just don't talk about things like that. You should know certain other governments aren't any better. Before someone thinks - no I'm neither left-wing-party nor communist. And I have been many times to the US, too. It's just absolut non-sense to talk with certain people about problems like that. Nothing has been proven, yet. To the ones never been to either Ukraine or Russia you can't tell at all what's going on there. Watching the news is something different than actually being there. Don't get the impression I don't care about such tragedy, especially as I have close ties to the Dutch. I just don't like those people with very little knowledge in politics publishing comments like a statesman.

Quoting SelseyBill (Reply 57): so how does Putin suggest these fans do so safely ?

Such as every other plane flying somehow into the direction of Ukraine - ever checked FR24 for routings in that area?

Quoting SelseyBill (Reply 57): Thousands of fans flying into places like Volgograd and Sochi will have to fly over Ukrainian airspace; so how does Putin suggest these fans do so safely ?

Without even considering the air travel, how could anyone feel safe in Russia? Even a prominent politician can't walk next to the Kremlin without being murdered.... I guess security guards just disappear on their own accord.   

Quoting eielef (Reply 23): Here they want to start the tribunal (the trial) before even haven't finished the investigation.

Well, let's look at that assertion.

Russian-armed and funded separatists obstructed the investigators from accessing the crime scene and removed/tampered with the evidence before letting them in.

And now Russia is arguing that there should not be a process because the investigation is incomplete.

It's a lousy pretext for avoiding a judicial process in a notorious case of mass murder.

We all know that Russian separatists had been bringing down large transport aircraft in the preceding days.

We all know that after mistakenly downing MH17 the same Russian separatists claimed responsibility on social media, then deleted their posts when they realised what they had brought down.

And we all know that the same Russian separatists then obstructed access to the site for several days afterwards until their allies had been able to do whatever they did to the crime scene and the evidence.

It's extraordinary to the point of comical for the Russian government to think that the rest of the world doesn't know what happened in this matter. I know that they are used to closing down discussion and dissent at home, but do they really think that this veto will help their cause? It is perceived by pretty much everyone in the world community as tantamount to a signed confession of responsibility.

Quoting Semaex (Reply 24): But then again, no other nation has shot down a civilian aircraft with 298 people on board.

That is a strong statement.

Quoting adipasquale (Reply 66): it has not been confirmed that MH17 was downed by Russians, only that Russian made equipment was used to shoot it down.

I''m embellishing the point, but it seems as if A.netters have more confidence of their knowledge about this incident than even national intelligence agencies do.

There is a lot of gratuitous criticism here of the Russian media (and generally of the Russian nation and government as well), but it doesn't seem like the Anglo-American media is much better.

Quoting alfa164 (Reply 1): Russia's denials, stone-walling, and disinformation campaign has ben disgraceful. It must be horribly tragic to the friends and families of the victims to see this charade being played out. Someday, I hope, Russia will be made to pay for its sins.

What's not disgraceful? American attempts to appoint someone "non-democratic" guilty? Official Dutch investigation stated they didn't even establish yet what type of missile was it - air-to-air or surface-to-air, after a year into investigation. And you are already making someone "pay for sins". At thus pace, by the time they will prepare a case, all statutes of limitations will run out. Perhaps that's why they are taking too long - maybe it's indeed not Russians or Ukrainian rebels? In case of Spanish crash of A-320 everything was clear within days.

Quoting macc (Reply 16): So, why then not a UN tribunal? What other institution can you think of? Or is the truth only true when it comes from the Kremlin?

The truth is only true when it comes from Washington, apparently.

Quoting B747400ERF (Reply 44): I notice the pictures in your profile, your agenda is quite obvious, you are not waiting for anything your mind is already made up. same with all the others here defending the indefensible and ignoring all the facts.

What facts gave been established? Maybe you know something the official investigators don't? They stated - they haven't even yet established what kind of missile hit the plane, and whether it was surface-to-air, or air-to-air.

Quoting SelseyBill (Reply 57): Perhaps those nations that lost nationals in MH17, ought to get together and 'veto' the FIFA Football World Cup in 2018 being held in Russia. Thousands of fans flying into places like Volgograd and Sochi will have to fly over Ukrainian airspace; so how does Putin suggest these fans do so safely ?

Don't worry you won't fly to Sochi over Ukraine. They shut down that airspace. You will be perfectly safe and fine in Russian airspace.

Quoting ptrjong (Reply 31): MH17 was shot down by a Russian or Russian-supported SAM crew which may have been incompetent, trigger-happy or drunk, but did not intend to shoot down a Malaysian airliner. All they could be accused of is negligence.

Why can't we say exactly the same about Ukrainian crew? It's even more possible - they pulled their Buks out of 25 year long storage, put them together and some monkey was curious to know what happens if they press that big red button. And did exactly that. From that point on it was all automatic - missile did what it was designed to do, which is find and hit the target.
Russian air defense crews have opportunities to be far more professional - they have air defense deployed around their whole huge country, and in addition do regular shootings, with closed airspace in training regions. And civil airliners were hit in Russia, after KAL flight at least.

Quoting ptrjong (Reply 31): The Dutch governemnt's insistance on a tribunal or trial is completely naive, and I don't believe this is helpful to the victims at all.

Well, the Netherlands are a member of both EU and NATO, and we can't talk about them as a sovereign nation. As sad and unfortunate as it sounds. They follow a political line developed elsewhere, even in case where hundreds of their citizens got killed.

Quoting anrec80 (Reply 74): Why can't we say exactly the same about Ukrainian crew? It's even more possible - they pulled their Buks out of 25 year long storage, put them together and some monkey was curious to know what happens if they press that big red button. And did exactly that. From that point on it was all automatic - missile did what it was designed to do, which is find and hit the target.

Let's not try to rewrite history here: First, on Russia’s VKontakte website on July 17, a website that had been continually used by the rebels to brag about their "accomplishments", the "rebels" bragged about shooting down an aircraft within minutes of the MH17 shoot-down. Secondly, the incident occurred over rebel-controlled - not Ukrainian controlled - area. Thirdly, because that claim was posted by Igor Girkin, a Ukrainian separatist known as “Strelkov,” who was known as the "Commander" of the proposed independent (or Russian-controlled) "Eastern Ukraine" state. And finallyy, because it was posted before anyone else - no other media - had knowledge of the shootdown. It was an "We-were-there-shooting-at-airplanes" admission. Read it yourself:

"In the vicinity of Torez, we just downed a plane, an AN-26. It is lying somewhere in the Progress Mine. We have issued warnings not to fly in our airspace. We have video confirming. The bird fell on a waste heap. Residential areas were not hit. Civilians were not injured."

The posting was taken down as soon as it became apparent that the plane was not an AN-26, but a civilian airliner. His chilling, sickening bragadocio makes it clear who is responsible...except to those who are determined to spread disinformation and propaganda.

Quoting anrec80 (Reply 75): Well, the Netherlands are a member of both EU and NATO, and we can't talk about them as a sovereign nation

Really? Not a "sovereign nation"? I supposed Canada is not a "sovereign nation" because of its ties to the British Commonwealth...

Is this the opening round of an attempt to discredit the anticipated findings of the Dutch report? This would be another pitiful tactic to divert attention from the real - admitted - culprits: the so-called "rebels" and their Russian enablers.

Quoting Nouflyer (Reply 69): We all know that Russian separatists had been bringing down large transport aircraft in the preceding days.

Lets call the things by their name. They are Ukrainian separatists. People from Donetsk and Luhansk are Ukrainians. They were born in Ukraine and, maybe they are pro-Russia, but they are still today Ukrainians, in a war with their own State.
Russia has if any, a very small quote of responsibility by (allegedly) providing the Ukrainian separatists with weapons.

Quoting eielef (Reply 77): Lets call the things by their name. They are Ukrainian separatists. People from Donetsk and Luhansk are Ukrainians. They were born in Ukraine and, maybe they are pro-Russia, but they are still today Ukrainians, in a war with their own State.

Well... let's call thinks by their actual names. They are some Ukrainian separatists, augmented by and combined with Russian soldiers, led by Russian nationals with ties to the Kremlin. And supplied - barely more than a year ago - with a Russian BUK missile launcher.

We can all see how well that worked out...

Quoting upwardfacing (Reply 70): Quoting Semaex (Reply 24):But then again, no other nation has shot down a civilian aircraft with 298 people on board. That is a strong statement.

I guess you misinterpreted my post quoting reply 5 which goes as follows:

Quoting Semaex (Reply 24): Quoting upwardfacing (Reply 5):Put in the same place, any other of the P5 members would have done exactly the same. You may be right. But then again, no other nation has shot down a civilian aircraft with 298 people on board. So it's hard to say what other nations would do. It's a case of "what if" which nobody can answer.

Out of the "P5", none has shot an airliner in this scenario, so my point is still valid.

Quoting upwardfacing (Reply 70): I''m embellishing the point, but it seems as if A.netters have more confidence of their knowledge about this incident than even national intelligence agencies do.

I like the way you phrased this, because you say that a.netters seem to have more "confidence" in their own knowledge, which I believe to be true and good!
We've been fooled by so-called national "intelligence" too many times. Everybody with a strong gut-feeling is in their ight mind questioning official "sources".

Quoting Semaex (Reply 79): Out of the "P5", none has shot an airliner in this scenario, so my point is still valid.

I think we have to make a distinction between nation-states and non-state actors. Nation-states can cultivate non-state actors, or take on non-state actors as clients, but it's very hard to keep them under control.

Quoting upwardfacing (Reply 70): I''m embellishing the point, but it seems as if A.netters have more confidence of their knowledge about this incident than even national intelligence agencies do.

National governments will hide things if they are damaging or if there is a potential that it could spark a war. So even if both sides know (possible) then they're not going to directly accuse.

Quoting upwardfacing (Reply 70): There is a lot of gratuitous criticism here of the Russian media (and generally of the Russian nation and government as well), but it doesn't seem like the Anglo-American media is much better.

It is better, you can criticise government and use outside evidence. I know it's not perfect, but national media in a place like the UK isn't government controlled to the same extent as Russia's.

Quoting anrec80 (Reply 74): Why can't we say exactly the same about Ukrainian crew?

Because there's no evidence of that.

Quoting anrec80 (Reply 74): It's even more possible

It is not. There is no evidence.

Quoting anrec80 (Reply 74): they pulled their Buks out of 25 year long storage, put them together and some monkey was curious to know what happens if they press that big red button.

Using a stealth missile battery that despite being in rebel territory has not been photographed or mentioned by any eyewitnesses?

Quoting anrec80 (Reply 74): And did exactly that.

Whatever you say chief.

Quoting anrec80 (Reply 74): From that point on it was all automatic - missile did what it was designed to do, which is find and hit the target.

My, we have a clever one here!

Quoting anrec80 (Reply 74): Russian air defense crews have opportunities to be far more professional - they have air defense deployed around their whole huge country, and in addition do regular shootings, with closed airspace in training regions. And civil airliners were hit in Russia, after KAL flight at least.

And if the people operating it were separatists and not Russian military? I'm sorry, what you've just written is a load of b*llocks, this is a conflict a few miles from the Russian border, very relevant to the Russian state. They would have surveillance of the area, and you can be certain they would have brought it to light, rather than focusing on inaccurate Flightaware data and spouting lies left, right and centre.

I believe we cannot expect any progress in seeking the truth until presidential election in November 2016.
Even a slightest reasonable doubt cast by DSB or any other investigative body will compromise the narrative and will trigger an immense backlash.
If it happens, the chance Ms. Clinton to win will be close to none.
The presidency will fall into Republicans' hands without the need of Kochs' billions.
The pro-Democratic party elites simply can't afford such a development.

So what's to be done? Almost nothing.
Russia will be waiting for DSB report in October.
Russia (with some backing of China) will be pushing Ban Ki-moon to give the case to direct investigation of ICAO. It will not work.
Russia can arrange a full-scale experiment. But it will also not work without presence of official investigative bodies.

I also expect cautious U.S. - Russia contacts, direct ones or via European facilitators.
We all are pretty much stuck. Even though for the most MSM consumers the investigation is over and the culprits assigned.
Politics and geopolitics rule.

Quoting MrHMSH (Reply 81): It is better, you can criticise government and use outside evidence. I know it's not perfect, but national media in a place like the UK isn't government controlled to the same extent as Russia's.

There are certain topics on which the Anglo-American media engage in a surprising degree of self-censorship, or enter into co-operative relationships with their host governments. National security and a free press are not the best of friends.

Quoting upwardfacing (Reply 70): Quoting adipasquale (Reply 66): it has not been confirmed that MH17 was downed by Russians, only that Russian made equipment was used to shoot it down. I''m embellishing the point, but it seems as if A.netters have more confidence of their knowledge about this incident than even national intelligence agencies do.

Which is not too suprising as Ukraine used to be a part of the Soviet Union and so there's still loads of military equipment around from that era. Especiall in war times when everything is needed.

Quoting eielef (Reply 77): People from Donetsk and Luhansk are Ukrainians

Not necessarily. Most of them are ethnical Russians. Lots of them don't even speak Ukrainian. It was more than for sure that such kind of conlict will come some day. There's a very good reason why Russia itself has so many autonomous regions. They should've established the same in other countries.

Quoting alfa164 (Reply 78): augmented by and combined with Russian soldiers

Another vice reporter in here - great. Any other inside news?

Quoting Marvinhsv (Reply 67): Quoting SelseyBill (Reply 57):so how does Putin suggest these fans do so safely ? Such as every other plane flying somehow into the direction of Ukraine - ever checked FR24 for routings in that area?

I watch FR24 all the time, and know perfectly well that Ukrainian airspace is generally avoided.

The point I was trying to make, is how the Russians/ seperatists can (allegedly) shoot an airliner down, but then expect thousands to happily travel to the World Cup without concern.

Quoting eielef (Reply 77): Lets call the things by their name. They are Ukrainian separatists. People from Donetsk and Luhansk are Ukrainians. They were born in Ukraine and, maybe they are pro-Russia, but they are still today Ukrainians, in a war with their own State. Russia has if any, a very small quote of responsibility by (allegedly) providing the Ukrainian separatists with weapons.

There may be some, but most of the so called "separatists" aren't locals. How do I know? My wifes family lives in the region.

Quoting Marvinhsv (Reply 84): Not necessarily. Most of them are ethnical Russians.

Correct, as in my wifes family.

Quoting Marvinhsv (Reply 84): Lots of them don't even speak Ukrainian.

Correct.

Quoting Marvinhsv (Reply 84): It was more than for sure that such kind of conlict will come some day.

Incorrect.

Quoting alfa164 (Reply 76): Let's not try to rewrite history here: First, on Russia’s VKontakte website on July 17, a website that had been continually used by the rebels to brag about their "accomplishments", the "rebels" bragged about shooting down an aircraft within minutes of the MH17 shoot-down. Secondly, the incident occurred over rebel-controlled - not Ukrainian controlled - area. Thirdly, because that claim was posted by Igor Girkin, a Ukrainian separatist known as “Strelkov,” who was known as the "Commander" of the proposed independent (or Russian-controlled) "Eastern Ukraine" state. And finallyy, because it was posted before anyone else - no other media - had knowledge of the shootdown. It was an "We-were-there-shooting-at-airplanes" admission. Read it yourself:"In the vicinity of Torez, we just downed a plane, an AN-26. It is lying somewhere in the Progress Mine. We have issued warnings not to fly in our airspace. We have video confirming. The bird fell on a waste heap. Residential areas were not hit. Civilians were not injured." The posting was taken down as soon as it became apparent that the plane was not an AN-26, but a civilian airliner. His chilling, sickening bragadocio makes it clear who is responsible...except to those who are determined to spread disinformation and propaganda.

  

Has everyone seen this TV documentary:

http://rtd.rt.com/films/mh17-a-year-without-the-truth/#part-1

Quoting Unflug (Reply 86): Incorrect.

No - nobody expected the Crimea to be taken back to Russia but at a different point it would have happend. Too many cultures and languages within a country combined with too few rights for certain groups never end well. Name a single example to prove the opposite!

Quoting Marvinhsv (Reply 88): Too many cultures and languages within a country combined with too few rights for certain groups never end well. Name a single example to prove the opposite!

Since you ask for a single example: many cultures and languages seem to work in Switzerland. But that is not really relevant.

Can you name the groups you are talking about and the rights they did not have? Without just repeating the propaganda stories?

Quoting Unflug (Reply 89): many cultures and languages seem to work in Switzerland

I'm not talking about a mix of Italian/German/French influences - that's more or less the same. It works well because there's a lot of money in this country. On the other hand it doesn't work at all - reading Swiss newspapers and websites shows a different face of Switzerland. A LOT of the 'original' Swiss' don't the like the huge presence of foreigners. Not just the huge amount of people coming from the Balkan but also Germans. Check out the last five years when it comes to political decisions regarding the rights of foreigners and what could happen to them if they do certain things. I know this because I've worked a lot in that country over years. You should have come up with a better example that's more like Ukraine. Conflicts usually come up when certain groups don't get enough attention or being kept away from economic progress.

Quoting Unflug (Reply 89): Without just repeating the propaganda stories?

It seems like you did follow nothing else but the propaganda otherwise you'd know that ethnical Russians in Ukraine were almost supposed to not use Russian as their official language anymore. The government in Kiew doesn't care much about anything but Kiev and the areas that makes the money for them. This is neither propaganda nor a secret - simple analysis of facts. Almost 20% of the Ukrainian population are Russians so this isn't a small group.

Quoting Unflug (Reply 89): Since you ask for a single example: many cultures and languages seem to work in Switzerland. But that is not really relevant.

hmm, one of the most right wing orientated countries in Europe, next to Austria! no value to this discussion, but what a bad example!

[Edited 2015-08-07 13:29:49]

Quoting cougar15 (Reply 91): hmm, one of the most right wing orientated countries in Europe, next to Austria! no value to this discussion, but what a bad example!

Is it really such a surprise, left wing governments generally tend to divide people by concentrating too much on ethnicity, religion, race and other such irrelevant matters to make sure no minority gets offended. By doing that they tend to work exactly against their ideal of a multicultural society.

Quoting cougar15 (Reply 91): hmm, one of the most right wing orientated countries in Europe, next to Austria! no value to this discussion, but what a bad example!

Indeed. My intention to ask for a good example was that there simply isn't a single one. Nicely shown if somebody comes up with Switzerland.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 92): their ideal of a multicultural society.

Indeed. Luckily there aren't much of those governments...

Quoting Marvinhsv (Reply 90): It seems like you did follow nothing else but the propaganda otherwise you'd know that ethnical Russians in Ukraine were almost supposed to not use Russian as their official language anymore. The government in Kiew doesn't care much about anything but Kiev and the areas that makes the money for them.

Nonsense. The government in Kyiv (not Kiew) speaks Russian much of the time. The most spoken language in the streets of Kyiv, to this day, is Russian. And the beauty is that nobody cares...

The language issue is a red herring, and this is a Belgian speaking...

Quoting Marvinhsv (Reply 84): Not necessarily. Most of them are ethnical Russians. Lots of them don't even speak Ukrainian. It was more than for sure that such kind of conlict will come some day. There's a very good reason why Russia itself has so many autonomous regions. They should've established the same in other countries.

Of course many don't speak Ukrainian. The language was banned in Ukraine under Soviet rule...and had been for decades. It wasn't allowed to be taught in schools, or used in any official capacity. The Soviets made Russian the only official language of Ukraine.

By the time Ukraine got independence, the Russians had almost achieved their goal of wiping out every speck of Ukrainian language and culture.

My girlfriend didn't learn Ukraiiane until it was taught to her after 1991, when Ukraine made Ukrainian the official language of the country.

Quoting Marvinhsv (Reply 88): No - nobody expected the Crimea to be taken back to Russia but at a different point it would have happend. Too many cultures and languages within a country combined with too few rights for certain groups never end well. Name a single example to prove the opposite!

When I was in Crimea, nobody seemed very concerned about Ukrainian rule. In fact, within Ukraine, Crimea was considered a semi autonomous state, not just another oblast, with more self rule than any other Ukrainian region..ironically, kind of like what Putin says he is trying to get for the other areas of Ukraine he has invaded.

If Crimea was so anxious to separate, there seemed to be very little signs of it. There wasn't any signs of revolution until the Russian troops stormed out of their bases...troops that Ukraine mistakenly let use Crimea.

Signs of revolt should have been everywhere...in papers, on line, international pleas for freedom but nope...nothing. Just people calmly going about their lives, working, eating out, relaxing, sitting at cafe's...you know, living in peace.

It was the quietest revolution ever...until the Russians started shooting.

The only reason Crimea was ever going to be part of Russia was by force...something Putin said he planned weeks before he actually attacked.

Quoting Marvinhsv (Reply 90): It seems like you did follow nothing else but the propaganda otherwise you'd know that ethnical Russians in Ukraine were almost supposed to not use Russian as their official language anymore. The government in Kiew doesn't care much about anything but Kiev and the areas that makes the money for them. This is neither propaganda nor a secret - simple analysis of facts. Almost 20% of the Ukrainian population are Russians so this isn't a small group.

That's crap. Of course Russian speakers could use Russian and of course a great deal of the population is Russian. the Soviets moved millions of Russians to Ukraine. All of the Soviet Socialist Republics were part of one country, and because most people were Russian, Russians went to every part of the USSR. The Kremlin certainly couldn't trust Ukrainians to run themselves, could they? They might get uppity and want to control their own land.

When Ukraine became independent, all that happened was that the official language became Ukrainian, not Russian. You could get any service you wanted in Russian, especially in areas closer to Russia.
Everyone I knew spoke Russian, because that's all they were allowed to learn in school. Ukraine has only been independent since 1991. People only learned or spoke Ukraine at home because it was a crime to speak Ukrainian in public.

Ukraine is just beginning to get their heritage back from decades of Soviet dictatorial rule.

The whole save the russian speakers schtick is such garbage. The Putin propaganda machine forgot to take into consideration people who have spent time in Ukraine.

Everything you have said, from...

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 95): Of course

...until...

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 95): The Putin propaganda machine forgot to take into consideration people who have spent time in Ukraine.

... is fully consistent with my own experiences in Ukraine.

Thank you for writing it out!

[Edited 2015-08-07 16:33:51]

Quoting Scipio (Reply 96):

I was just getting so bloody sick of the bull presented by Putin's propaganda puppets as fact. Most people haven't been to Ukraine so they just don't know how life in Ukraine is or was. Most of the putin apologists, if any, have never been to Ukraine, care in the least about Ukraine or could find it on a map.

Even during the orange revolution, (which only happened because Yanikovich was so smug he stuffed some ballet boxes and threw out others within camera shot), never caused Donetsk and area to revolt. They also had a great deal of autonomy, simply because Kyiv isn't and wasn't powerful enough to extend its influence and power very far.

The fantasy of the mighty Ukrainian military running roughshod over the poor, defenseless citizens of the east, with only thousands of vacationing Russian troops, their weapons, aircraft, missiles and armor to defend themselves.

Hell the Ukrainians probably had to look under carpets for the keys to their armored vehicles and aircraft and siphon fuel from buses to get them started. They didn't even have enough money to play war games.

Ukraine is broke and has been forever. There isn't enough money to put down any real revolution. If the east wanted to be part of Russia, they would have long ago. There wasn't much stopping them. Ukraine didn't even put up a fight when Russia stole Crimea. When Putin invaded Ukraine, then the government had no choice but to fight back.

The rest is blah, blah, blah for the Russian people rallying the citizens while pretending some of their sons are coming back in body bags because they had the flu.

Quoting Marvinhsv (Reply 90): It seems like you did follow nothing else but the propaganda otherwise you'd know that ethnical Russians in Ukraine were almost supposed to not use Russian as their official language anymore. The government in Kiew doesn't care much about anything but Kiev and the areas that makes the money for them. This is neither propaganda nor a secret - simple analysis of facts. Almost 20% of the Ukrainian population are Russians so this isn't a small group.

Obviously you have never been there and have no idea of what you are talking about. Some others have, I have been there. My wifes family lives there. They are ethnical Russians, have always been speaking Russian. They were NOT asking for Putins help.

Quoting Marvinhsv (Reply 93): Indeed. My intention to ask for a good example was that there simply isn't a single one. Nicely shown if somebody comes up with Switzerland.

So you believe that Switzerland will sooner or later have separatists and violence like in eastern Ukraine? Your point was that too many cultures "never end well"...

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 95): Signs of revolt should have been everywhere...in papers, on line, international pleas for freedom but nope...nothing. Just people calmly going about their lives, working, eating out, relaxing, sitting at cafe's...you know, living in peace. It was the quietest revolution ever...until the Russians started shooting.

Even before they started shooting they were organizing the protest on the streets. Protesters were brought in by busses in the morning and home in the evening. There are videos showing these "protesters" receiving their payment when boarding the return bus...

Quoting Unflug (Reply 98):

Most people correctly believe Putin is lying, pretty much whenever he speaks, but a few of us actually know he is lying from personal experience in Ukraine.

Obviously these Putin apologists are counting on the lack of knowledge of most people, to get them to believe the nonsense.

I feel it's almost a duty at this point to spread some first hand knowledge and truth about Ukraine in the face of the outright lies of the paid propagandists.