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Tenerife 1977 - Why 747 Service To Las Palmas?

Posted: Wed Jul 29, 2015 8:53 pm
by aa87
I'm wondering if anyone knows why PA and KLM had 747 service to Las Palmas ? were those scheduled or charter flights ? Was Las Palmas a hot destination then ? Not directly relevant for the accident but I always wondered why PA and KLM were flying 747s to Las Palmas. Why didn't most tourists connect through Spain ? I'm sure the islands are beautiful, just curious how there was enough demand for direct 747 service from multiple carriers in the 70s.

RE: Tenerife 1977 - Why 747 Service To Las Palmas?

Posted: Wed Jul 29, 2015 9:00 pm
by GARUDAROD
If I'm not mistaken both aircraft where charters operating to bring passengers to a cruise
ship departing from the region.

RE: Tenerife 1977 - Why 747 Service To Las Palmas?

Posted: Wed Jul 29, 2015 9:00 pm
by kaitak
Not sure about the KLM aircraft, but the Pan Am passengers were on a fly-cruise, to meet a ship at LPA.

I think the KLM flight was a standard IT flight; there were several aircraft diverted to TFN, including a Sabena 747 and various other charter flights.

RE: Tenerife 1977 - Why 747 Service To Las Palmas?

Posted: Wed Jul 29, 2015 9:03 pm
by SpaceshipDC10
Quoting aa87 (Thread starter):
Not directly relevant for the accident but I always wondered why PA and KLM were flying 747s to Las Palmas. Why didn't most tourists connect through Spain ? I'm sure the islands are beautiful, just curious how there was enough demand for direct 747 service from multiple carriers in the 70s.

KL flight was a charter from the Netherlands probably filled up with tourists looking for some sun and sea over the winter period, even though it was already the end of March. Pan Am, iirc, was on a scheduled flight. You have to remember it was almost 40 years, that is things were very different than nowadays. Then why connect through Spain when you can get a direct flight there, especially when flying from within Europe?

RE: Tenerife 1977 - Why 747 Service To Las Palmas?

Posted: Wed Jul 29, 2015 9:04 pm
by PanHAM
Quite common in the 70s to fly wide Body Equipment to the Canary Islands or destinations in the Mediterranean like PMI or AGP.

Condor had 747s flying parallel with LTU Tristars on DUS-PMI or to the Canaries as well. These were, like the KL flight charter flights.
We had DC8s, 707/720s and CV990 besieds DC9 and the 727s or BAC 1-11 on these jobs while it is mostly boring 320s and 738s nowadays.

[Edited 2015-07-29 14:22:31]

RE: Tenerife 1977 - Why 747 Service To Las Palmas?

Posted: Wed Jul 29, 2015 9:20 pm
by Aesma
Yeah, don't forget medium range small planes just didn't exist at the time.

RE: Tenerife 1977 - Why 747 Service To Las Palmas?

Posted: Wed Jul 29, 2015 9:23 pm
by klwright69
Yes, interesting observations. The Canary Islands are obviously quite far from the western USA, and the PA flight began in LAX. A lot of the passengers were from California and Washington state. I did some research into the people on the PA flight a long time ago.

There was even a group of around 65 people from a retirement community in southern California on the flight, and only 10 survived. Of course they were going on the cruise. Several instances where one spouse survived and the other died also. Actually 275 boarded on LAX.
https://www.awesomestories.com/asset/view/PAN-AM-1736-MISSED-EXIT-Tenerife-Deadliest-Air-Accident

A long ways to go to go on a cruise. Wow.

[Edited 2015-07-29 14:25:25]

RE: Tenerife 1977 - Why 747 Service To Las Palmas?

Posted: Wed Jul 29, 2015 9:49 pm
by iahcsr
Both flights were diverted there due to an explosion at LPA..... The fog rolled in after they arrived. PA was cleared to depart first, but had to wait as KL was bumping fuel and blocked PA.

RE: Tenerife 1977 - Why 747 Service To Las Palmas?

Posted: Thu Jul 30, 2015 1:29 am
by timz
The 10/76 OAG shows SA 747s to LPA-- no others.

Suspect PA never scheduled flights to the Canary Islands. In any case, in summer 1977 they didn't.

RE: Tenerife 1977 - Why 747 Service To Las Palmas?

Posted: Thu Jul 30, 2015 2:28 am
by Viscount724
Quoting SpaceshipDC10 (Reply 3):
Pan Am, iirc, was on a scheduled flight

No, Pan Am was also a charter, for a cruise I believe. Pan Am never operated scheduled services to the Canary Islands.

RE: Tenerife 1977 - Why 747 Service To Las Palmas?

Posted: Thu Jul 30, 2015 3:43 am
by 747buff
Both flights were charters. In fact, I remember reading somewhere that the PA 747 was to deadhead to Paris, then operate a scheduled flight back to the U.S. Also, the PA flight was numbered 1736. Did this by chance correspond to the reg (N736PA)?

RE: Tenerife 1977 - Why 747 Service To Las Palmas?

Posted: Thu Jul 30, 2015 4:00 am
by aa87
Thanks for replies. I did some more digging and yes indeed both were charters. These tragedies are always horrific, but this one had the added irony that in a larger sense neither plane should have been at Tenerife in the first place. The tower wasn't properly staffed, communication difficulties, field was never designed for so many ac at once, especially jumbos. I'd even bet those may have been the first 747s ever at Tenerife. Add sudden fog and a rushed, complacent, overly experienced and overconfident Dutch captain, and the tragedy chain link is complete. The terrorists who planted the bombs at LPA really did kill almost 600 people.

RE: Tenerife 1977 - Why 747 Service To Las Palmas?

Posted: Thu Jul 30, 2015 8:01 am
by n729pa
N736PA as I recall had an eventful history

She operated the first commercial 747 service JFK-LHR 22/1/70 as a substitute for the original aircraft (N733PA) that developed a technical fault.

She was the first 747 hijacked too on 2/8/70.

RE: Tenerife 1977 - Why 747 Service To Las Palmas?

Posted: Thu Jul 30, 2015 2:22 pm
by CiC
All Charters... As far as I know only Iberia (MAD-LPA-CCS) and SA (Europe-LPA fuel stop-JNB) were scheduled...

RE: Tenerife 1977 - Why 747 Service To Las Palmas?

Posted: Thu Jul 30, 2015 3:25 pm
by B737900
Quoting iahcsr (Reply 7):
Both flights were diverted there due to an explosion at LPA.....
Quoting SpaceshipDC10 (Reply 3):

KL flight was a charter from the Netherlands
Quoting SpaceshipDC10 (Reply 3):
Pan Am, iirc, was on a scheduled flight.

Seems to be some confusion here. Whatever the reason for both aircraft being at Tenerife, fog played the major role in the tragedy.

RE: Tenerife 1977 - Why 747 Service To Las Palmas?

Posted: Thu Jul 30, 2015 3:50 pm
by Clydenairways
Quoting aa87 (Thread starter):
I'm wondering if anyone knows why PA and KLM had 747 service to Las Palmas ?

747's were regularly used on holiday charter flights during the 70's and 80's. Also Holiday charters were also operated by legacy carriers a lot more than today.
EI, LH, SK, KL, SN, SR 747's could also be seen on holiday charters during that era.

RE: Tenerife 1977 - Why 747 Service To Las Palmas?

Posted: Thu Jul 30, 2015 6:29 pm
by TonyBurr
I was alive at that time. They were diversions due to problems at their destiantion airports. Neither was suppose to be there at all. They were not 747 destinations for either airport. I forget whether they were weather or airport safety diverions. I know they were not scheduled or charters.

RE: Tenerife 1977 - Why 747 Service To Las Palmas?

Posted: Thu Jul 30, 2015 6:42 pm
by AR385
I seem to recall that due to this accident a requirement came into being that forbade two airplanes to be on the active at the same time. Am I wrong?

RE: Tenerife 1977 - Why 747 Service To Las Palmas?

Posted: Thu Jul 30, 2015 6:57 pm
by iberiadc852
Quoting kaitak (Reply 2):
I think the KLM flight was a standard IT flight; there were several aircraft diverted to TFN, including a Sabena 747 and various other charter flights.

The Sabena 747, and a BAW L-1011 (among other charters), were not diverted. They were scheduled to TFN that day.
TFN received a Condor 747 every Thursday those times.

RE: Tenerife 1977 - Why 747 Service To Las Palmas?

Posted: Thu Jul 30, 2015 8:00 pm
by rbavfan
Las Palmas was a fuel stop for most carriers during the 70's in route to southern Africa. Stopping for fuel allowed for greater cargo loads or just because they needed it to fly the route. the 747 of 1970 did not have the range of the 747-400/747-8 series.

RE: Tenerife 1977 - Why 747 Service To Las Palmas?

Posted: Thu Jul 30, 2015 8:05 pm
by levg79
Quoting 747buff (Reply 10):
he PA flight was numbered 1736. Did this by chance correspond to the reg (N736PA)?

Absolutely! I remember reading about an interview with Robert Bragg years ago and he said that the charter flight numbers were based on the aircraft registration. He also mentioned in the interview that PA did not normally fly to Canary Islands and while bidding on this trip he actually had to look at the map to see where this destination was.

RE: Tenerife 1977 - Why 747 Service To Las Palmas?

Posted: Thu Jul 30, 2015 8:08 pm
by rbavfan
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 9):

But PanAm did regularly stop for fuel as did canadian & EU carriers. Remember guys Pan Am flew mostly 747-100 in these years 4880nm max range with 385 passenger. PanAm flew JFK-Johannesburg in the 70's 6936nm Even KLM with their 747-100's was 4697nm from Frankfurt. Both needed fuel stops. Most African countries did not allow flyover of their lands due to apartheid. The 747 could not do it non-stop. One of Las Palmas most consistent business was a giant gas station.

[Edited 2015-07-30 13:15:45]

[Edited 2015-07-30 13:16:34]

[Edited 2015-07-30 13:18:28]

RE: Tenerife 1977 - Why 747 Service To Las Palmas?

Posted: Thu Jul 30, 2015 8:37 pm
by brilondon
I believe that both aircraft were diverted due to weather and neither were supposed to be there.

RE: Tenerife 1977 - Why 747 Service To Las Palmas?

Posted: Thu Jul 30, 2015 8:48 pm
by Adipasquale
Quoting brilondon (Reply 22):
I believe that both aircraft were diverted due to weather and neither were supposed to be there.

No, as stated before, they were diverted to TFN because of an explosion at their original destination of LPA. Weather played a factor in the fact that fog obscured the runway of TFN so that KL 4805 was on the runway at the same time PA 1736 was cleared for takeoff. The fact that nonstandard terminology was used by the crew of KL 4805 led to PA 1736 being cleared for takeoff while KL 4805 was obstructing the runway. So really it was a combination of the weather and the nonstandard terminology that caused the accident.

RE: Tenerife 1977 - Why 747 Service To Las Palmas?

Posted: Thu Jul 30, 2015 8:49 pm
by cedarjet
Where you guys getting your facts from?! PA was a scheduled flights, diversions due to wx?! This is madness. Both charter flights, both diverted from Gran Canaria due to a bomb explosion in the terminal there. How can anyone on here not know the basic facts yet be posting on this thread.

RE: Tenerife 1977 - Why 747 Service To Las Palmas?

Posted: Thu Jul 30, 2015 8:52 pm
by deltacto
Quoting brilondon (Reply 22):
I believe that both aircraft were diverted due to weather and neither were supposed to be there.

The Pan Am 747 and KLM 747 were both flying as charters to Las Palmas. A terrorist group set off a bomb in the Las Palmas terminal, closing that airport. Pan Am and KLM - along with several other large jets - were then diverted to Los Rodeos on Tenerife. Lots of good info here

http://www.airdisaster.com/special/special-pa1736.shtml

adipasquale and cedarjet ... my apologies ... i did not see your posts before i posted mine

[Edited 2015-07-30 13:54:25]

RE: Tenerife 1977 - Why 747 Service To Las Palmas?

Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 12:52 am
by aa87
Guys, I guess I wasn't clear. I know the destination was Las Palmas and both were diverted to Tenerife due to the terrorist bombing at destination. I was really just wondering why PA and KLM had 747s scheduled for Las Palmas in the first place. Charters make perfect sense. It is interesting how jumbos were used back when there were far fewer of them.

On a related note, was it bc of this accident that standard terminology became using "take off" only when giving or reading back TO clearance, and using "departure" for all other comm ? I recall hearing that many years ago, and when I've listened to ATC seems that is the custom (eg, "prepare for departure").

Quoting adipasquale (Reply 23):
The fact that nonstandard terminology was used by the crew of KL 4805 led to PA 1736 being cleared for takeoff while KL 4805 was obstructing the runway.

PA was still backtaxiing on the runway when KLM rolled without clearance - but you're absolutely correct that use of non-standard terminology allowed situation to occur where KLM captain thought/assumed they were cleared, and ATC thought/assumed KLM was holding in position, and fog prevented visual by everyone until it was too late.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 17):
I seem to recall that due to this accident a requirement came into being that forbade two airplanes to be on the active at the same time. Am I wrong?

Wasn't that always the rule ? This was what I characterize as a communication accident, not a clearance or operational accident.

Quoting iberiadc852 (Reply 18):
The Sabena 747, and a BAW L-1011 (among other charters), were not diverted. They were scheduled to TFN that day.
TFN received a Condor 747 every Thursday those times.

Interesting, so the Canary Islands were clearly very popular destinations. Has anyone here been there recently ? does this tragedy still hang over the islands ?

RE: Tenerife 1977 - Why 747 Service To Las Palmas?

Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 1:47 am
by B737900
Back during that time my father-in-law was a captain for PanAm flying 747's. My wife and I were living in bush Alaska and heard of the accident over the radio. We knew he was out on a trip but knew not where. We called home. He was safe but the family knew the PanAm crew. It was a small family. Tragic day.

RE: Tenerife 1977 - Why 747 Service To Las Palmas?

Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 2:30 am
by Viscount724
Quoting aa87 (Reply 26):
It is interesting how jumbos were used back when there were far fewer of them.

There were roughly 700 wide bodies in service at the time of the Tenerife event in March 1977. Around 300 747s, 230 DC-10s, 140 L-1011s and 25 A300s had been delivered by then. Considering how much smaller the air travel market was in those pre-deregulation days, and how much lower average load factors were then (rarely much over the 60% range), 700 widebodies was a lot of capacity at the time.

Pan Am had 37 747s in service then, including their first half dozen 747SPs, and March wasn't the peak season, so they were probably happy with any charter business they could get, considering that they had ordered far too many 747s, one of Pan Am's problems for many years.

RE: Tenerife 1977 - Why 747 Service To Las Palmas?

Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 5:55 am
by PanHAM
Quoting rbavfan (Reply 21):
But PanAm did regularly stop for fuel as did canadian & EU carriers. Remember guys Pan Am flew mostly 747-100 in these years 4880nm max range with 385 passenger. PanAm flew JFK-Johannesburg in the 70's 6936nm Even KLM with their 747-100's was 4697nm from Frankfurt. Both needed fuel stops. Most African countries did not allow flyover of their lands due to apartheid. The 747 could not do it non-stop. One of Las Palmas most consistent business was a giant gas station.

LPA was certainly not a fuel stop for PA and they served JNB mostly with the 747SP in the 70s. The logic fuel stop for NA Services was and is Ilha do Sal which is a bit south of the Canaries.
Also, Europea carriers could stop anywhere in Africa on the way to JNB, South African could not. Sal was a fuel stop for Europe as well, on some flights LPA too.

RE: Tenerife 1977 - Why 747 Service To Las Palmas?

Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 7:00 am
by ACEregular
As correctly stated by Cedar and others, both flights were charter flights. The PA flight had been chartered to join the Golden Odyssey cruise ship and cruise the Mediterranean. The KLM flight was a regular flight operated on behalf of Dutch tour operator Holland International. Onboard were three Holland International tour representatives travelling back to Gran Canaria which was their allocated resort destination. One of those representatives escaped death by choosing to stay over in Tenerife rather than continuing to Gran Canaria. Supposedly her boyfriend worked in Tenerife and she decided to leave the flight after the diversion, thus saving her life. She is the only person to surviving the flight though not actually onboard at the time,she did travel with them all from Amsterdam that morning.

The Canary Islands at the time were in the midst of the tourism boom that started in the 60's. Primarily as the result of the birth of the inclusive tour packages, making travel much more easily accessible to the general public. These islands are not really a primitive backwater, though certainly not quite to the standard North Americans probably expect and most definitely not primitive by anyone today's standards. They are a prime destination for many North Europeans, having a good infrastructure and abundant year round sunshine. Bear in mind they are only a four hour flight from the UK. A similar distance from NYC to Cancun to compare the two hotspots. I usually visit one of the Islands at least once a year. This year I have been to both Lanzarote and Tenerife. I have never encountered any locals who have talked of it hanging over their heads. You should consider though that TFN has had a chequered history. Prior to 77 there was the Spantax Convair crash which claimed all onboard and in 1980 a British charter flight crashed into terrain on it's descent to TFN again with a loss of all. Strangely just two years previously a new airport opened in the south of the island and had this flight been operated into TFS instead of TFN it most likely would never have flown into the terrain. At the time though the southern resorts were still in their infancy and possibly not quite as desirable as they are now. I do think that in most European travellers of a certain age do remember these events and where they occurred. Lessons have been learned but we don't forget.

[Edited 2015-07-31 00:15:59]

RE: Tenerife 1977 - Why 747 Service To Las Palmas?

Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 7:12 am
by SCQ83
Not trying to be picky, but it is Gran Canaria Airport. Las Palmas is just (the largest) city in the island of Gran Canaria.

RE: Tenerife 1977 - Why 747 Service To Las Palmas?

Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 7:23 am
by wjcandee
Quoting aa87 (Thread starter):
I'm wondering if anyone knows why PA and KLM had 747 service to Las Palmas ?

Wikipedia has most of the info. Both were charters to Las Palmas for cruises. PA for Royal Cruise Line and KLM for Holland International. They ended up at Tenerife (Los Rodeos Airport), a smaller regional airport, because terrorists exploded a bomb in a flower shop on the concourse at Las Palmas and there was the threat of a second. The staff at Los Rodeos had to park a bunch of planes, including multiple 747s.

RE: Tenerife 1977 - Why 747 Service To Las Palmas?

Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 7:25 am
by factsonly
Quoting rbavfan (Reply 21):
Even KLM with their 747-100's was 4697nm from Frankfurt.

KLM never operated B747-100 !

KLM was Boeing's first B747 customer to accept the B747-200B.


After the initial 747-100 model, Boeing developed the −100B, a higher maximum takeoff weight (MTOW) variant, and the −100SR (Short Range), with higher passenger capacity.

In 1971 Boeing increased the MTOW to allow more fuel and a longer range. The -200B featured more powerful engines and a higher MTOW.

RE: Tenerife 1977 - Why 747 Service To Las Palmas?

Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 11:10 am
by Buyantukhaa
Quoting rbavfan (Reply 21):
Even KLM with their 747-100's was 4697nm from Frankfurt.

Surely they fly out of AMS not FRA...

Quoting aceregular (Reply 30):
Strangely just two years previously a new airport opened in the south of the island and had this flight been operated into TFS instead of TFN it most likely would never have flown into the terrain.

TFS opened only in 1978, even if most of its infrastructure was complete at the time of the disaster.

RE: Tenerife 1977 - Why 747 Service To Las Palmas?

Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 4:02 pm
by dennys
The EU carriers did not need a fuel stop , but a commercial stop such as NBO or FIH to fill up their huge 747s or DC10s on those days .

On the contrary SAA really needed a fuel stop like SID or LPA on their way to NYC or Europe .

RE: Tenerife 1977 - Why 747 Service To Las Palmas?

Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 5:17 pm
by timz
Quoting rbavfan (Reply 21):
PanAm flew JFK-Johannesburg in the 70's

Via Dakar, was it? Not via the Canaries, anyway.

RE: Tenerife 1977 - Why 747 Service To Las Palmas?

Posted: Sat Aug 01, 2015 1:47 am
by Viscount724
Quoting timz (Reply 36):
Quoting rbavfan (Reply 21):
PanAm flew JFK-Johannesburg in the 70's

Via Dakar, was it? Not via the Canaries, anyway.

Pan Am's service in the early '70s was multi-stop with 707s. For example, in the April 29, 1973 timetable JNB was 2 x week with 707, one with 3 stops and one with 5 stops. Those were similar to routings operated in propeller days.

Routings:

JFK-ROB-ACC-FIH-JNB (ROB = Monrovia, Liberia)
JFK-DKR-ROB-ACC-LOS-FIH-JNB

By April '79 JNB was down to just 1 x week with a 707 and originated MIA with one stop at GIG, with 5th freedom rights GIG-JNB. The return flight made a fuel stop (no traffic rights) at CPT due JNB's high elevation, operating JNB-CPT-GIG-MIA.

They must have dropped JNB for a while as there was no service in the April 1980 timetable, but they returned some time prior to 1982.

In the September 1982 timetable JNB was once a week with a 747SP JFK-ABJ-JNB.

They dropped JNB permanently sometime thereafter. No service in 1985 or 1987 timetables.

RE: Tenerife 1977 - Why 747 Service To Las Palmas?

Posted: Sat Aug 01, 2015 2:15 am
by Max Q
Quoting PanHAM (Reply 29):
LPA was certainly not a fuel stop for PA and they served JNB mostly with the 747SP in the 70s.

From where did they fly to JNB ?


Was it non stop from JFK ?

Quoting dennys (Reply 35):
On the contrary SAA really needed a fuel stop like SID or LPA on their way to NYC or Europe .

Did SAA ever operate their Classics non stop to or from Europe ? I imagine their SP's could.

[Edited 2015-07-31 19:26:20]

RE: Tenerife 1977 - Why 747 Service To Las Palmas?

Posted: Sat Aug 01, 2015 2:24 am
by Revelation
Quoting clydenairways (Reply 15):
747's were regularly used on holiday charter flights during the 70's and 80's.
Quoting aceregular (Reply 30):
Primarily as the result of the birth of the inclusive tour packages, making travel much more easily accessible to the general public.

Also charters were not subject to a lot of the strict airline pricing regulations that scheduled flights had during that era, so in many cases they could fill up 707s with bargain hunters.

This led to various dubious packaging of charters with $1 fees to join affiliated "cultural appreciation societies" that allowed one to access such charters.

Ref: http://news.google.com/newspapers?ni...IBAJ&pg=2360,5673536&hl=en

Note I am NOT saying that's what happened in the tragic accident, I'm just responding to why the Canaries supported 747 service.

RE: Tenerife 1977 - Why 747 Service To Las Palmas?

Posted: Sat Aug 01, 2015 3:03 am
by Viscount724
Quoting Max Q (Reply 38):
Quoting PanHAM (Reply 29):
LPA was certainly not a fuel stop for PA and they served JNB mostly with the 747SP in the 70s.

From where did they fly to JNB ?


Was it non stop from JFK ?

As mentioned in Reply 37, in 1982 it was JFK-ABJ (Abidjan)-JNB once a week with 747SP. I doubt the SP had enough range for JFK-JNB nonstop without payload restrictions. It's about 400 miles further than SYD-LAX. And northbound would be even more of a challenge with JNB's 5,558 ft. elevation

I believe at some point Pan Am also used the 747SP briefly on the MIA-GIG-JNB route previously operated for a while with 707s (with a fuel stop at CPT on the return trip).

RE: Tenerife 1977 - Why 747 Service To Las Palmas?

Posted: Sat Aug 01, 2015 3:43 am
by Max Q
Interesting,amazing how widespread the PAA network was.


Rio to Johannesburg was and still is a pretty lonely route, especially when Pan Am was operating it.

RE: Tenerife 1977 - Why 747 Service To Las Palmas?

Posted: Sat Aug 01, 2015 4:50 am
by 777Jet
Quoting iahcsr (Reply 7):
Both flights were diverted there due to an explosion at LPA..... The fog rolled in after they arrived. PA was cleared to depart first, but had to wait as KL was bumping fuel and blocked PA.

And then the ultimate price was paid because Jacob Louis Veldhuyzen van Zanten decided to takeoff without being 'cleared for takeoff'  
Quoting AR385 (Reply 17):
I seem to recall that due to this accident a requirement came into being that forbade two airplanes to be on the active at the same time. Am I wrong?

That would still not prevent nonsense like this form occurring:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhAd5Dki1no

Luckily the KAL pilot displayed typical KAL pilot skills  
Quoting cedarjet (Reply 24):
This is madness.

What van Zanten did was madness...

RE: Tenerife 1977 - Why 747 Service To Las Palmas?

Posted: Sat Aug 01, 2015 5:54 am
by Ned Kelly
Quoting 747buff (Reply 10):
. Also, the PA flight was numbered 1736. Did this by chance correspond to the reg (N736PA)?

Yes you are correct. Pan Am when operating charters always used the registration number preceded by a 1. I remember during my spotting days in the 70's catching the registration number on my airband radio from the call sign, although these were mainly 707's.

Quoting iberiadc852 (Reply 18):
The Sabena 747, and a BAW L-1011 (among other charters), were not diverted. They were scheduled to TFN that day.

I remember seeing a picture of the line up of the aircraft stuck on the ramp for a few days after the accident. I always recall that I remember seeing a British Airtours (Charter arm of BA) 707-436 and a Sabena (may have been a Sobelair) 707-329, don't recall seeing a BA L10 or an SN 747, but I am happy to be corrected on this. Someone once (maybe even on this site) gave a full list of aircraft and registrations of those aircraft stuck at TFN. Perhaps someone has this list here?



Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 37):
By April '79 JNB was down to just 1 x week with a 707 and originated MIA with one stop at GIG, with 5th freedom rights GIG-JNB. The return flight made a fuel stop (no traffic rights) at CPT due JNB's high elevation, operating JNB-CPT-GIG-MIA.

I was in JNB Aug/Sep 1979 and I only ever saw PA operate a 707, never a 747.

RE: Tenerife 1977 - Why 747 Service To Las Palmas?

Posted: Sat Aug 01, 2015 6:05 am
by modernArt
Quoting Ned Kelly (Reply 43):
I remember seeing a picture of the line up of the aircraft stuck on the ramp for a few days after the accident.

Is this the ramp in the background or is this a different airport?

RE: Tenerife 1977 - Why 747 Service To Las Palmas?

Posted: Sat Aug 01, 2015 6:34 am
by Ned Kelly
Quoting modernart (Reply 44):
Is this the ramp in the background or is this a different airport?

Thanks for the photo, It does look around the right time given the colour schemes and the wreckage at the front is a bit of a giveaway! Just to chuck a spanner in the works, any idea of the exact date this photo was taken, could it possibly be that this photo was when the airport reopened to arriving traffic? I do recall that journalist were present at the airport for a while after the accidents and the reopening of the airport was reported in the news. There must be another picture taken from another angle showing a KT 707 & SN 707, I tried a Google search but couldn't find it. I was 15 at the time of the accident, and perhaps I am loosing my marbles and memory a bit.

RE: Tenerife 1977 - Why 747 Service To Las Palmas?

Posted: Sat Aug 01, 2015 6:54 am
by PanHAM
Tere's a Sterlng Caravelle and a CV990 wih must be Spntax visible in that pictre. The first a/c behind the 747 is a 707

RE: Tenerife 1977 - Why 747 Service To Las Palmas?

Posted: Sat Aug 01, 2015 8:10 am
by Ned Kelly
Quoting PanHAM (Reply 46):
Tere's a Sterlng Caravelle and a CV990 wih must be Spntax visible in that pictre. The first a/c behind the 747 is a 707

You are right about the sterling Caravelle, but the aircraft behind the 747 looks like a DC8-50 looking at the engines, but can't recall what airline it would be. The aircraft behind that looks like a Conair of Scandinavia Boeing 720, and behind that is an Aviaco DC8.

RE: Tenerife 1977 - Why 747 Service To Las Palmas?

Posted: Sat Aug 01, 2015 9:27 am
by cougar15
Quoting aa87 (Thread starter):
I'm wondering if anyone knows why PA and KLM had 747 service to Las Palmas ? were those scheduled or charter flights ? Was Las Palmas a hot destination then ? Not directly relevant for the accident but I always wondered why PA and KLM were flying 747s to Las Palmas. Why didn't most tourists connect through Spain ? I'm sure the islands are beautiful, just curious how there was enough demand for direct 747 service from multiple carriers in the 70s.

go to Youtube, there is a 2 hour documentary/dcudrama from the early ACI/Mayday series there & answers all your questions

RE: Tenerife 1977 - Why 747 Service To Las Palmas?

Posted: Sat Aug 01, 2015 9:40 am
by ACEregular
Quoting timz (Reply 36):
Quoting Buyantukhaa (Reply 34):
Quoting rbavfan (Reply 21):
Even KLM with their 747-100's was 4697nm from Frankfurt.

Surely they fly out of AMS not FRA...

Quoting aceregular (Reply 30):
Strangely just two years previously a new airport opened in the south of the island and had this flight been operated into TFS instead of TFN it most likely would never have flown into the terrain.

TFS opened only in 1978, even if most of its infrastructure was complete at the time of the disaster.



I am aware TFS opened in 1978, two years previous to the 1980 Dan Air crash which occurred during an approach to TFN, the crash I was referencing with relation to TFN's chequered history and not saying TFS was operational at the time of the PA/KL collision.

Also does anyone know how long the runway was out of use and how long the stranded aircraft were at TFN. I was thinking perhaps they got a dispensation for using the taxiway to get airborne.