MadameConcorde
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RE: Aircraft Flap Found In La Réunion (RUN) Part 2

Thu Jul 30, 2015 1:48 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 91):
Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 82):
Why would they send the flaperon to Toulouse when the Bureau Enquêtes Accidents is at Le Bourget??

Black boxes would go to the office at Le Bourget. The only thing you need to examine an aircraft part is a hangar and the BEA has a warehouse in TLS.

Thanks for the info.

  
There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
 
A388
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RE: Aircraft Flap Found In La Réunion (RUN) Part 2

Thu Jul 30, 2015 1:51 pm

Wow, I didn't expect this to be found. To what extend will this aircraft part improve the chance of finding the remaining wreckage? As KarelXWB said, if it was a soft impact in the sea the wreckage might be more in tact but if it's a hard impact into the sea, the wreckage is scattered all over the Indian Ocean.


A388
 
WarrenPlatts
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RE: Aircraft Flap Found In La Réunion (RUN) Part 2

Thu Jul 30, 2015 2:15 pm

Quoting parapente (Reply 88):
'16 months is plenty of time for barnacles in those warm waters'.

You can age muscles very accurately via shell rings.They will be able to date when they started growing - possibly even where.

They may never find the plane or why.But the rest may now come sadly and quickly.

Barnacles are not mussels (a type of mollusk), they're actually a type of arthropod--a completely different phylum, but barnacles do have a fairly definite growth rate. The goose barnacles found on the flaperon probably grow ~1 to 2 cm/year, so they're consistent with the part coming from 9M-MRO.

Compare the flaperon barnacles with barnacles from a boat in the same waters known to be missing for 8 months:

 
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N328KF
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RE: Aircraft Flap Found In La Réunion (RUN) Part 2

Thu Jul 30, 2015 2:18 pm

Quoting WarrenPlatts (Reply 102):
Barnacles are not mussels (a type of mollusk), they're actually a type of arthropod--a completely different phylum, but barnacles do have a fairly definite growth rate. The goose barnacles found on the flaperon probably grow ~1 to 2 cm/year, so they're consistent with the part coming from 9M-MRO.

I guarantee that the BEA is tracking down the best barnacle scientist they can find to determine min/max ages.

To which that scientist will be thinking, "This is my moment in the sun!"

[Edited 2015-07-30 07:18:39]
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PHKLM
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RE: Aircraft Flap Found In La Réunion (RUN) Part 2

Thu Jul 30, 2015 2:22 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 86):

Right wing flaperon of a Boeing 777
 
WarrenPlatts
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RE: Aircraft Flap Found In La Réunion (RUN) Part 2

Thu Jul 30, 2015 2:27 pm

Quoting N328KF (Reply 103):
I guarantee that the BEA is tracking down the best barnacle scientist they can find to determine min/max ages.

To which that scientist will be thinking, "This is my moment in the sun!"

That would be Marine biologist Joseph Pouplin from the French naval academy!  
Quote:
The Journal de L’île de la Réunion said expert analysis of photos of the debris has identified the type of crustaceans on it.

The paper said the species was Lepas anatifera (also known as goose barnacle), which lives ‘in temperate or warm waters’ and grows by 1cm to 2cm a year.

Marine biologist Joseph Pouplin from the French naval academy in Brest told the newspaper that these crustaceans could have attached themselves to the debris for several months or a year.

Source is the excellent Guardian article.

Here's a bit on goose barnacle biology: http://www.asnailsodyssey.com/LEARNABOUT/GOOSE/goosFeed.php
 
jetwet1
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RE: Aircraft Flap Found In La Réunion (RUN) Part 2

Thu Jul 30, 2015 2:41 pm

Quoting jpetekyxmd80 (Reply 32):
I don't believe any of this suitcase stuff. Highly unlikely they drifted the same as the flaperon. The flaperon is perfect to have made such a long journey. It's composite and light and would be more characteristic of a watercraft than anything.

Also, if we have suitcases floating 4000 miles that would be indicative of a vast floating debris field which I find highly unlikely since there has been NOTHING found until this point.

I have an old Samsonite suitcase my mother gave me when I moved to Vegas, she had been using it for years, the thing is nearly indestructible, trust me i've tried. If the aircraft was split open (which is very possible) I can see such baggage slowly "leaking" from the hull.

Quoting 77west (Reply 73):

I firmly believe that not only will they expand the search, but they will find more debris as well.

There was probably a lot of debris to start with, but spotting anything in an ocean is difficult, spotting something the size of a suitcase in next to impossible unless it's in a field of the stuff, heck authorities have had a hard enough time trying to keep track of MV Lyubov Orlova as it made it's way across the Atlantic, and that is 328' long ship.

Quoting YoungMans (Reply 79):
However, a single big component, floating, shouldn't that have been identifiable by some you-beaut automatic satellite image analysing technology?

As above, it's really not that big, if the authorities had a good idea where it was then maybe, but with out a small area to work in, I can easily see it being missed.
 
mark2fly1034
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RE: Aircraft Flap Found In La Réunion (RUN) Part 2

Thu Jul 30, 2015 2:53 pm

So if this is from the 777 over the next few days we should maybe start seeing more parts. i am little on edge till its confirmed that this is from 370 that it is 370. If the plane did break up what are the odds that the black boxes could be floating as well. I know the ELT on them should of gone off but this is MH we are talking about so who knows what kind of safety standards they have with checking the batteries on them. Or at this point would water of gotten into the boxes and they would be destroyed anyway?
 
ThirtyEcho
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RE: Aircraft Flap Found In La Réunion (RUN) Part 2

Thu Jul 30, 2015 2:58 pm

One thing is certain, if this is from MH370 it will server to multiply and enhance all of the strange conspiracy "theories" out there, not debunk them. We are already seeing statements that the flaperon was deliberately dropped there to throw off the search.
 
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flyingturtle
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RE: Aircraft Flap Found In La Réunion (RUN) Part 2

Thu Jul 30, 2015 2:59 pm

Quoting WarrenPlatts (Reply 102):
they're actually a type of arthropod--a completely different phylum

I'm a biologist and I'm amazed that arthropods (to which centipedes, spiders, cicadas and bees belong to) can take this form...


I look forward to how this find plays out, if it leads to a search of the coasts of La Réunion and other islands. Perhaps they could pay the Indian Ocean garbage patch a visit... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Ocean_garbage_patch

David
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seahawk
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RE: Aircraft Flap Found In La Réunion (RUN) Part 2

Thu Jul 30, 2015 3:00 pm

Quoting solarflyer22 (Reply 99):
I don't think you can infere that just yet but its an interesting proposition. That would imply ditching if true.

No, it tells us nothing. The Us Airways ditched slow with the flaps down and the flaps survived roughly intact. The the flaperon in neutral position (in line with the wing) it is likely to survive stronger impacts.
 
TXspotter
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RE: Aircraft Flap Found In La Réunion (RUN) Part 2

Thu Jul 30, 2015 3:05 pm

Quoting mark2fly1034 (Reply 107):
If the plane did break up what are the odds that the black boxes could be floating as well. I know the ELT on them should of gone off but this is MH we are talking about so who knows what kind of safety standards they have with checking the batteries on them. Or at this point would water of gotten into the boxes and they would be destroyed anyway?

Black boxes would have sunk. Still a good possibility the data is still able to be used if the boxes are found.

For reference. the black boxes are located above in the ceiling above the aft galley. There is also a quick access recorder (QAR) located in the main EE bay. It will be ruined due to water damage. Very unlikely that it will have useful data. It is more for the maintenance and measures may similar parameters as the FDR.
 
vikinga346
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RE: Aircraft Flap Found In La Réunion (RUN) Part 2

Thu Jul 30, 2015 3:10 pm

CNN is now reporting that it is confirmed that the flaperon is from a Boeing 777. This pretty much solidifies that it must be from MH370 as no other 777 has crashed in this part of the world that has parts missing.

[Edited 2015-07-30 08:11:07]
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MKIAZ
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RE: Aircraft Flap Found In La Réunion (RUN) Part 2

Thu Jul 30, 2015 3:13 pm

So assuming this is from mh370 which it appears to be, what can investigators learn from the piece?

If the plane ran out of fuel at altitude - with no one at the controls - would the descent allow this big of a piece to survive?

Perhaps they can look at the breaks on the back end and see approximately how much force was applied to break off the back, giving a rough speed? The amount of the piece that broke off should give an idea of the position of the part at impact.
 
WarrenPlatts
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RE: Aircraft Flap Found In La Réunion (RUN) Part 2

Thu Jul 30, 2015 3:20 pm

Quoting ThirtyEcho (Reply 108):
One thing is certain, if this is from MH370 it will server to multiply and enhance all of the strange conspiracy "theories" out there, not debunk them. We are already seeing statements that the flaperon was deliberately dropped there to throw off the search.

Well, while the barnacles certainly are not necessary evidence to tie the flaperon to 9M-MRO (the "657 BB" inscription at post #86 above clinches to a moral certainty that the part is indeed from 9M-MRO), the barnacles do show the part has been in the water for quite a while now. I guess the conspirators could have kept it soaking in a secret lagoon somewhere, waiting for this opportunity, but really it's a great confirmation of the Inmarsat model IMHO.
 
wannabe
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RE: Aircraft Flap Found In La Réunion (RUN) Part 2

Thu Jul 30, 2015 3:23 pm

It has also been reported that Air France flies 777's into Reunion Island. If so, was a flaperon ever replaced on an aircraft at this island, and if so, how was it disposed of? Could this just be a piece of locally disposed of junk, as opposed to something that floated up on the beach?
 
NASBWI
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RE: Aircraft Flap Found In La Réunion (RUN) Part 2

Thu Jul 30, 2015 3:28 pm

Quoting wannabe (Reply 115):
It has also been reported that Air France flies 777's into Reunion Island.

As does Air Austral, yes? But depending on the variant (200ER/300ER), would the same part be labeled differently?
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vikinga346
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RE: Aircraft Flap Found In La Réunion (RUN) Part 2

Thu Jul 30, 2015 3:29 pm

Quoting wannabe (Reply 115):

It has also been reported that Air France flies 777's into Reunion Island. If so, was a flaperon ever replaced on an aircraft at this island, and if so, how was it disposed of? Could this just be a piece of locally disposed of junk, as opposed to something that floated up on the beach?

Really far fetching if you ask me... I would certainly expect aviation professionals to dispose of such "junk" in an appropriate matter - not let it drift off into the ocean.

Although i do get where you're coming from covering all angles, I don't think anyone here can answer that question. Let's wait a couple days until they've done analysis in TLS to determine that it is in fact from the MH 777 and not some other fluke.
...you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been and there you shall return
 
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JetBuddy
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RE: Aircraft Flap Found In La Réunion (RUN) Part 2

Thu Jul 30, 2015 3:29 pm

I think everyone can safely assume that this flaperon is from MH370.

And I'm not sure it's that smart dismissing that the suitcase(s) recently found in the same area could be from MH370. The pictures I've seen are just shreds of nylon fabric and zippers which easily could float for months or years. Unlike someone mentioned earlier in this thread, a suitcase can actually stay afloat for a long time, even if it was weighed down with content. Either way, the suitcase I've seen was shredded.

An airliner impacting the ocean would most likely form patches of debris. I suspect we'll find more airplane parts and other items related to the crash/ditch within the next few weeks around the same area.

Of course stuff washes ashore all the time, but dismissing the suitcase this early would be wrong in my opinion.

The barnicles on the flaperon will be able to tell where in the ocean they started growing, and how old they are. Together with the damage on the flaperon, I think we'll get very close to the truth about what happened to the aircraft in the next few weeks/months.
 
TXspotter
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RE: Aircraft Flap Found In La Réunion (RUN) Part 2

Thu Jul 30, 2015 3:30 pm

the 657 BB writing is the part number to a small skin panel. There are many skin panels on the leading edge of the flaperon and is painted on the inside to protect it from the elements. Many of those "BB" panels are riveted together to make the various parts of the flaperon.

The whole flaperon assembly has the designation of PN 113W6100-10, as seen in the pictures I referenced. The data plate for the flaperon which would show PN 113W6100-10 and SN XXXXX has been detached. Therefore the BB657 gives conclusive evidence that the part is a B777 flaperon since the data plate for the flaperon assembly is missing.

FWIW, the flaperon actuators/ flaperon power control units (PCUs) (2 per flaperon) are the most expensive actuators on the B777 due to their constant movement. They are in the order of 4-5ft long and attach to the protruding mounts at the bottom of the flaperon.

Flaperon Power Control Unit PN 1567700-3
 
WarrenPlatts
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RE: Aircraft Flap Found In La Réunion (RUN) Part 2

Thu Jul 30, 2015 3:34 pm

Quoting MKIAZ (Reply 113):
So assuming this is from mh370 which it appears to be, what can investigators learn from the piece?

If the plane ran out of fuel at altitude - with no one at the controls - would the descent allow this big of a piece to survive?

Perhaps they can look at the breaks on the back end and see approximately how much force was applied to break off the back, giving a rough speed? The amount of the piece that broke off should give an idea of the position of the part at impact.

Well, the big problem is still finding the main wreckage site. Thus the big question is whether this part could somehow narrow down the search area.

I guess if they could somehow determine the velocity of the impact from this one piece, a slow velocity impact would indicate a more or less controlled descent, and thus raise the probability that the wreck will be found more toward the outer edge of the search area band. Whereas a high velocity impact might place the likely wreckage site more toward the middle or inner side of the band...
 
TXspotter
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RE: Aircraft Flap Found In La Réunion (RUN) Part 2

Thu Jul 30, 2015 3:39 pm

Quoting wannabe (Reply 115):
It has also been reported that Air France flies 777's into Reunion Island. If so, was a flaperon ever replaced on an aircraft at this island, and if so, how was it disposed of? Could this just be a piece of locally disposed of junk, as opposed to something that floated up on the beach?

95% of the time the airline would take the damaged flaperon and exchange it with a repaired flaperon like the one I posted. They would pay about 1/10th of the price of the repaired one.

Example: A new flaperon costs $500,000
We would give them our new flaperon for $50,000
We would get their damaged flaperon and get it repaired, another $50,000
we would bill the airline for the repair and now have another unit ready to sell.

The airline has payed $100,000 for a new unit instead of $500,000

Airlines save money by only paying 1/5th the price and do not have expensive spare parts sitting around their warehouses that they may never need. Win-win.

Air France will almost NEVER buy anything OUTRIGHT (i.e. pay $500,000), they will exchange their broken for our new.

I believe Air Austral flies their B777's to Reunion as well.
 
B8887
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RE: Aircraft Flap Found In La Réunion (RUN) Part 2

Thu Jul 30, 2015 3:53 pm

Quoting Reply 120

I am sure that piece of metal will be scrutinised to the fullest extent that money and means can possibly provide.

I am sure it will undergo ultrasound analysis to find out about microcracks, they will carry out a full chemical analysis including plankton concentrations, salinity and pH, and it will also undergo a thorough structural analysis.

Regards.

B8887

[Edited 2015-07-30 09:08:55]
 
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blooBirdie
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RE: Aircraft Flap Found In La Réunion (RUN) Part 2

Thu Jul 30, 2015 3:57 pm

Quoting Txspotter (Reply 121):
I believe Air Austral flies their B777's to Reunion as well.

I should hope so, that's where they're based!
 
AirGAbon
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RE: Aircraft Flap Found In La Réunion (RUN) Part 2

Thu Jul 30, 2015 4:00 pm

Quoting Txspotter (Reply 121):
I believe Air Austral flies their B777's to Reunion as well.

Air Austral is the airline based in Reunion Island (RUN), operating a fleet of 3 B777-300ER, 1 B777-200LR, 2 B737-800 and 2 ATR72-500.

It is Reunion commercial airline flying from RUN to: CDG, JNB, MAA, BKK, HAH, DZA, MRU, SEZ, TNR, NOS, TMM and in the past having a trans Indian Ocean flight from RUN to SYD and NOU.
 
bueb0g
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RE: Aircraft Flap Found In La Réunion (RUN) Part 2

Thu Jul 30, 2015 4:04 pm

Quoting oxymorph (Reply 85):

I disagree. A pilot with a conviction and determination and meticulousness (insomuch as the planning and preparation for such a deliberate and nefarious action), would see things through to the end. The idea that he would take himself out at the FMT makes no sense.

And risk screwing the whole thing? Problem is, if we assume it was one of the pilots, that's 6+ hours he has sole control of the plane. He must either have killed the other pilot, or locked him out of the flightdeck. If the other pilot is locked out, everyone on board will know very quickly that something is wrong - while the aircraft is still over land, and passengers can use their phones, most likely. News would have made it off the aircraft. That's 200+ people who know they're hijacked - for over 6 hours; they're not going to sit and wait. I don't think the hijacker could risk that. Similarly, if the other pilot is still in the cockpit but dead/incapacitated (less likely - means the hijacker needs to have got a weapon on board) people might well notice the turn off-course, and the cabin crew would notice that they're not being allowed to serve the cockpit their food services. Whichever way you cut it, for the hijacker, having 200+ people in the back for 6+ hours while you carry out your scheme is a massive liability.

The obvious answer is to depressurise the cabin before anybody knows what's happening. And if you did that, you'd be able to stay awake for a while, but even the cockpit oxygen doesn't last for 6 hours so at some point you would also pass out, and the aircraft is then on its own.

Quoting mark2fly1034 (Reply 107):
what are the odds that the black boxes could be floating as well.

Zero.

Quoting mark2fly1034 (Reply 107):
I know the ELT on them should of gone off but this is MH we are talking about so who knows what kind of safety standards they have with checking the batteries on them.

What does this even mean? MAS is a respected operation.

Quoting mark2fly1034 (Reply 107):
Or at this point would water of gotten into the boxes and they would be destroyed anyway?

AF 447 recorders survived for longer than this, although it was past their certified survivability.
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TheRedBaron
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RE: Aircraft Flap Found In La Réunion (RUN) Part 2

Thu Jul 30, 2015 4:05 pm

Quoting oxymorph (Reply 70):
Why MH370 could not fly slow (near stall speed) is something you will need to explain. If it is being piloted (which is a more likely assumption), then it can be flown slowly.

We don't know anything for sure so please refrain all speculation to our never ending MH thread in its 80Th part, this one is about the debris found.

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 78):
We don't have a single bit of evidence regarding the moment the plane entered the water, whether or not it was under pilot control, whether or not aircraft systems were in control, whether or not anything was in control, If it hit fast or slow, steep or shallow angle, if it ran out of fuel...(which affects many systems regardless of whether or not anyone/anything was controlling the aircraft.

Amen to this, this is only a very important part of the puzzle but sheds no more information other than the aircraft went down in the SIO.

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 78):
That being said, there isn't one shred of proof to support any theory, regarding its crash into the ocean.

  

Quoting oxymorph (Reply 85):
Zaharie didn't just conjure this up on whim.

Because you can read minds?

Quoting richierich (Reply 96):
No less than some of their own so-called "experts"...sifting through these threads, I would guess 1 in 10 people on here actually know what they are talking about, and if you can figure out who they are, you are probably better off than watching CNN, etc.

1 in 10 !!! You Sir are very optimistic! I am no expert myself, but I find sad that some "real" experts here sometimes don't even post because of all the mumbo jumbo posted and argued ad infinito....

The big news here if the part is confirmed by authorities as part of the missing airplane, is that they will be able to find other debris along the probable path on the SIO, more parts could make the investigative report a lot easier and better. Basically that flapperon is the flashlight they needed in the darkness. Hope soon we have better data and other confirming debris, so the relatives can find closure, and the investigators can give more info on the posible scenarios that led to such terrible tragedy.

TRB
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m1m2
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RE: Aircraft Flap Found In La Réunion (RUN) Part 2

Thu Jul 30, 2015 4:12 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 86):
Part number '657-BB' is clearly visible in this picture:

This number would most likely be a panel designation number, not a part number. Aircraft have a number for each access panel that is installed. This is referenced in the maintenance manual when it needs to be removed for maintenance. That number still may be unique to the 777, that I can't speak of as I've never worked on Boeing aircraft.

You'll often see the designation number on wing/engine pylon panels when you look out the window of an airliner. Air Canada does this with most of their airplanes.
 
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JetBuddy
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RE: Aircraft Flap Found In La Réunion (RUN) Part 2

Thu Jul 30, 2015 4:22 pm

Quoting Txspotter (Reply 121):
Example: A new flaperon costs $500,000
We would give them our new flaperon for $50,000
We would get their damaged flaperon and get it repaired, another $50,000
we would bill the airline for the repair and now have another unit ready to sell.

The airline has payed $100,000 for a new unit instead of $500,000

Airlines save money by only paying 1/5th the price and do not have expensive spare parts sitting around their warehouses that they may never need. Win-win.

Interesting business model, sounds lucrative. So the "new" flaperon you sell back to the airline is a repaired/refurbished unit which is in as good as new condition, with the paperwork and warranty and everything done?

I figured something like this was happening, but it's interesting to hear it from someone who works in that business.  
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Aircraft Flap Found In La Réunion (RUN) Part 2

Thu Jul 30, 2015 4:27 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 86):
Part number '657-BB' is clearly visible in this picture:


That's not a part number. This is an access panel location designation.

Jan
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vfw614
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RE: Aircraft Flap Found In La Réunion (RUN) Part 2

Thu Jul 30, 2015 4:28 pm

Quoting SpinalTap (Reply 16):
"Professor Charitha Pattiaratchi, from the University of Western Australia, said the aircraft part “can only have come from” the current search zone."

"Professor Pattiaratchi said modelling showed that wreckage would emerge in the region around Reunion Island within 18 to 24 months but current speeds were not uniform and difficult to predict. The MH370 aircraft went missing almost 17 months ago."

But given the projections of the currents, debris that began its journey in the current search area should not have reached LA Reunion yet, but sometime between September 2015 and February 2016. Does this make it more likely that the crash site was further to the west?
 
ak
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RE: Aircraft Flap Found In La Réunion (RUN) Part 2

Thu Jul 30, 2015 4:29 pm

Now it appears that a piece of luggage has washed up.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/luggage-piece-found-french-island-near-possible-mh370-130210347.html

[Edited 2015-07-30 09:32:37]
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TXspotter
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RE: Aircraft Flap Found In La Réunion (RUN) Part 2

Thu Jul 30, 2015 4:33 pm

Quoting JetBuddy (Reply 128):
Interesting business model, sounds lucrative. So the "new" flaperon you sell back to the airline is a repaired/refurbished unit which is in as good as new condition, with the paperwork and warranty and everything done?

Yes, there are different level of repaired. Inspected all the way to factory new - with new being the highest price. It all depends on how much money you want to spend on the repair vs what you think you can sell it for.

They also have warranties from the company doing the repair/overhaul and usually from the company selling the part.
 
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lightsaber
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RE: Aircraft Flap Found In La Réunion (RUN) Part 2

Thu Jul 30, 2015 4:34 pm

Quoting richierich (Reply 96):

I consider myself an aviation expert, but I am withholding making statements as these parts are outside of my specific expertise. However, after 509 days, it would be good tov'ckose the loop' on this investigation. I hope more is found. Alas, I think we are 500+ days away from finding the black boxes.

I half wonder if we'll find Amelia Earhart during the search...  

Lightsaber
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m1m2
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RE: Aircraft Flap Found In La Réunion (RUN) Part 2

Thu Jul 30, 2015 4:34 pm

Aircraft often get parts that have been overhauled/repaired. Engines are a good example of this. In many cases, the only new engines an aircraft will ever have will be the ones it was delivered from the manufacturer with. Once they are changed it is almost always an overhauled engine.

Of course, these parts all have traceability and certification tags to prove they are serviceable.
 
A332DTW
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RE: Aircraft Flap Found In La Réunion (RUN) Part 2

Thu Jul 30, 2015 4:45 pm

It may sound far fetched... but if a loved one from one of the victims would be able to identify that suitcase as belonging to their loved one, that would make a solid suggestion that this is indeed debris from MH370; that along with a 777 flaperon washing ashore... too many coincidences for it not to be related to MH370.
 
747megatop
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RE: Aircraft Flap Found In La Réunion (RUN) Part 2

Thu Jul 30, 2015 4:51 pm

Quoting YoungMans (Reply 79):
why then wasn't it found much earlier?

By the time the surface search started, the floating debris had probably drifted away and the rest of it had sunk.
 
karadion
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RE: Aircraft Flap Found In La Réunion (RUN) Part 2

Thu Jul 30, 2015 4:56 pm

777 Flaperon
This is specific to all MAS 777 frames which this is from a maint manual for MAS.

So you can see panel 657 BB highlighted in this. Yesterday I linked the one for the left wing which is 557 BB which was the wrong one. Originally I was looking for BB660 which didn't make sense now that it's clarified, we know what they're talking about.

[Edited 2015-07-30 09:56:57]
 
MD11Engineer
Posts: 13916
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RE: Aircraft Flap Found In La Réunion (RUN) Part 2

Thu Jul 30, 2015 5:02 pm

Quoting Txspotter (Reply 121):
Quoting wannabe (Reply 115):
It has also been reported that Air France flies 777's into Reunion Island. If so, was a flaperon ever replaced on an aircraft at this island, and if so, how was it disposed of? Could this just be a piece of locally disposed of junk, as opposed to something that floated up on the beach?

95% of the time the airline would take the damaged flaperon and exchange it with a repaired flaperon like the one I posted. They would pay about 1/10th of the price of the repaired one.

Example: A new flaperon costs $500,000
We would give them our new flaperon for $50,000
We would get their damaged flaperon and get it repaired, another $50,000
we would bill the airline for the repair and now have another unit ready to sell.

The airline has payed $100,000 for a new unit instead of $500,000

Airlines save money by only paying 1/5th the price and do not have expensive spare parts sitting around their warehouses that they may never need. Win-win.

Air France will almost NEVER buy anything OUTRIGHT (i.e. pay $500,000), they will exchange their broken for our new.

I believe Air Austral flies their B777's to Reunion as well.

This is also the reason why Boeing, once the aircraft has been handed over to the operator, cannot track part and serial numbers.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
CXfirst
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RE: Aircraft Flap Found In La Réunion (RUN) Part 2

Thu Jul 30, 2015 5:20 pm

Quoting 77west (Reply 41):
Media now linking Airliners.net user images!!

Suddenly we are informed experts...

At least they refer to us as 'armchair investigators'! Rather accurate in my opinion!

-CXfirst
 
b747400erf
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RE: Aircraft Flap Found In La Réunion (RUN) Part 2

Thu Jul 30, 2015 5:24 pm

Quoting Nouflyer (Reply 12):
Unfortunately, it has been obvious from the start that a number of major powers know precisely what happened but have elected not to reveal that information either not to reveal their own secret capabilities or because they have sought to use the information as leverage in other matters of international politics. That is very prudent politics, but it means that a full picture is impossible to assemble.
Quoting Nouflyer (Reply 12):

The Australian writer Ben Sandilands (who is mature and highly respected) has written in his "Plane Talking" blog at length about obvious lies being told by a number of the countries that presumably did not want a quick resolution to this affair. It will be hard for us ever to learn anything about what really happened now.

Even a basic plane crash is a huge world wide conspiracy with some people
 
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Horstroad
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RE: Aircraft Flap Found In La Réunion (RUN) Part 2

Thu Jul 30, 2015 5:25 pm

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 138):

This is also the reason why Boeing, once the aircraft has been handed over to the operator, cannot track part and serial numbers.

But the operator has to know what part and serial numbers are installed on their aircraft. Should be easy to crosscheck a serial number once (if) they find one on the flaperon or attaching parts.

If the S/N does not belong to 9M-MRO (according to documentation), then the search begins. Boeing knows to whom they sold the flaperon, attached to an airframe or not. It shouldn't be too hard to follow the life something like a flaperon.
 
m1m2
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RE: Aircraft Flap Found In La Réunion (RUN) Part 2

Thu Jul 30, 2015 5:42 pm

Quoting horstroad (Reply 141):
But the operator has to know what part and serial numbers are installed on their aircraft. Should be easy to crosscheck a serial number once (if) they find one on the flaperon or attaching parts.

If the S/N does not belong to 9M-MRO (according to documentation), then the search begins. Boeing knows to whom they sold the flaperon, attached to an airframe or not. It shouldn't be too hard to follow the life something like a flaperon.

I would think something like a flaperon would stay on the aircraft until it became damaged, or required replacement for cracking or some sort of wear. In my opinion it is highly likely that if this is the flaperon from 9M-MRO, it is the one installed by Boeing. This should make it easy to identify. Even if the data plate is missing, the ribs in there, or some component probably has the batch number of the aluminum it was made from still printed on it (provided these parts are made of Al)

In any case, MAS should know whether or not that flaperon on 9M-MRO was ever replaced.
 
WarrenPlatts
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RE: Aircraft Flap Found In La Réunion (RUN) Part 2

Thu Jul 30, 2015 5:46 pm

Quoting JetBuddy (Reply 118):
I think everyone can safely assume that this flaperon is from MH370.

Agreed.

Quote:
And I'm not sure it's that smart dismissing that the suitcase(s) recently found in the same area could be from MH370. The pictures I've seen are just shreds of nylon fabric and zippers which easily could float for months or years. Unlike someone mentioned earlier in this thread, a suitcase can actually stay afloat for a long time, even if it was weighed down with content. Either way, the suitcase I've seen was shredded.

Of course stuff washes ashore all the time, but dismissing the suitcase this early would be wrong in my opinion.

I saw those pictures as well, but the suitcase seemed pretty clean to me--that is, it didn't have the sea life growth on it that the flaperon had, possibly indicating that it wasn't in seawater for very long.

Quote:
An airliner impacting the ocean would most likely form patches of debris. I suspect we'll find more airplane parts and other items related to the crash/ditch within the next few weeks around the same area.

True, a debris field would be formed, but the individual pieces of flotsam would soon begin a random walk away from each other and become wildly separated. Hopefully, more debris will turn up, but it is perhaps about equally likely that more debris could turn up in Tasmania as Reunion. (cf. that Monto Carlo simulation model)

Quote:
The barnicles on the flaperon will be able to tell where in the ocean they started growing, and how old they are. Together with the damage on the flaperon, I think we'll get very close to the truth about what happened to the aircraft in the next few weeks/months.

This is an interesting thought, but it turns out that Lepas anatifera (a.k.a. the pelagic goose barnacle)--if indeed that is the species of barnacle found on the flaperon--has a worlwide distribution because it drifts everywhere. HOWEVER, it also turns out that Lepas antifera can't reproduce in cold waters.

Here is a surface temperature map of the SIO:

http://i.imgur.com/yTBcKle.gif

Note that the map was made in October (2005) and that October is toward the end of the southern winter, so the temperatures probably show the coldest extreme.

Now, here is a link to a very interesting article on Lepas antifera:

http://animaldiversity.org/accounts/Lepas_anatifera/

From the article:

Quote:
The eggs of Lepas anatifera are about 140-260 X 100-120 microns and hatch into free swimming larvae that undergo six specialized naupliar stages. Development to the 10 mm long, plankton-eating stage VI can take up to two months. The larvae then transforms into a cyprid, which is a non-feeding search and settlement stage. The cyprid larvae drift along the ocean currents until it identifies and attaches to a substratum. Once they are attached, cirri develop. Lepas anatifera reaches sexual maturity when the capitulum reaches 2.5 cm across. Sexual maturity occurs more slowly in cold waters than in warmer waters. Approximately 120 days after settlement these barnacles develop reproductive organs at temperatures between 10.2 to 18.4 ºC, but the reproductive development takes 30 days if the surface temperature of the water is around 25 ºC.


So P. antifera most likely can't reproduce in the southern portion of the search area where the water temperatures are typically below 16-20 ºC (cf. Patel 1959). Moreover, if you'll look at the comparison of the pictures above showing the flapiron versus the boat that had been in the water, the barnacles seem to be at approximately the same stage of development, with a size diameter of an inch or so. (I'm assuming the flapiron is about 5 feet across at the wide part.)

This would seemingly entail that the flapiron DID NOT begin its voyage in warm water (because the barnacles would be more developed), but instead began its voyage within the south/western portion of the search area, drifted north into warmer waters, and only then aquired its colony of barnacles!

I could be wrong of course since we only have these grainy photos to go off of. Thus, if an expert could figure out that the barnacles are a full 18 months old, then that would exclude the southern region, and the likely search area would be in the north off the coast of Perth!
 
Rara
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RE: Aircraft Flap Found In La Réunion (RUN) Part 2

Thu Jul 30, 2015 5:50 pm

Quoting 77west (Reply 50):
My rather vivid imagination just pictured a 777 in those seas being slammed around like that... makes me feel sick really.

I seem to remember from a much earlier thread that the weather was fine and the waves were relatively low (and it was already bright morning) at the place where MH370 supposedly crashed based on the Inmarsat data.

Quoting ThirtyEcho (Reply 108):
One thing is certain, if this is from MH370 it will server to multiply and enhance all of the strange conspiracy "theories" out there, not debunk them. We are already seeing statements that the flaperon was deliberately dropped there to throw off the search.

To be fair though... that's at least consistent. If you believe that there is a conspiracy which is powerful enough to let a whole airliner and all its passengers disappear, there is no reason not to believe that they couldn't also place a random aircraft part in the waters of Réunion. That's the strength of conspiracy theories: they're based on improbable conjectures, so the more improbable something becomes, the more it would seem to support the theory.
Samson was a biblical tough guy, but his dad Samsonite was even more of a hard case.
 
richierich
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RE: Aircraft Flap Found In La Réunion (RUN) Part 2

Thu Jul 30, 2015 5:56 pm

Quoting JetBuddy (Reply 118):
Together with the damage on the flaperon, I think we'll get very close to the truth about what happened to the aircraft in the next few weeks/months.

I don't necessarily agree with this statement. To assume that the investigators will be able to piece together what happened to MH370 based on this one piece of debris is asking a lot!!

Moving past the assumption that it is indeed part of the previously-missing airliner, what can we realistically expect to learn from a single flaperon? Certainly not enough to know what brought down the plane. However it may yield a few clues, most importantly about how the aircraft hit the water (i.e., with great force or perhaps a more shallow angle ditching.) Given the fact the flaperon is seperate from the wing, one can probably deduce where this is going. If the aircraft exploded in mid-air, for example, there may be tell-tale pitting along the flaperon, or perhaps if the investigators are lucky, chemical traces of explosives. All very highly unlikely, in my opinion.

I'm not putting a lot of faith into the barnacle scientists, either. They may give some interesting information but considering this wreckage will have been flotsam for well over a year, it would be unwise to expect anything more than a general area of search (i.,e., one quadrant of the Indian Ocean) as a basis for finding the main crash site....in other words, it will not be anything much greater than is what already known.
None shall pass!!!!
 
luv2cattlecall
Posts: 810
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RE: Aircraft Flap Found In La Réunion (RUN) Part 2

Thu Jul 30, 2015 5:56 pm

Quoting Txspotter (Reply 119):
FWIW, the flaperon actuators/ flaperon power control units (PCUs) (2 per flaperon) are the most expensive actuators on the B777 due to their constant movement. They are in the order of 4-5ft long and attach to the protruding mounts at the bottom of the flaperon.

Out of curiosity, how much do those actuators cost? Also, are they hydraulic or electric? It's amazing how quick they are.

Quoting Txspotter (Reply 121):
xample: A new flaperon costs $500,000
We would give them our new flaperon for $50,000
We would get their damaged flaperon and get it repaired, another $50,000
we would bill the airline for the repair and now have another unit ready to sell.

The airline has payed $100,000 for a new unit instead of $500,000

I know aviation is expensive...but what makes a flaperon cost as much as a few Cessnas, a helicopter, a Rolls-Royce, or a decent sized house?
.
 
rwessel
Posts: 2448
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RE: Aircraft Flap Found In La Réunion (RUN) Part 2

Thu Jul 30, 2015 6:09 pm

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 84):
Some are back calculating from reunion and ocean currents that it would've ditched into the ocean a lot more north than the current search area, but that theory is slightly incompatible with the satellite pings that *assumed* the plane flew a straight line from the Aceh island

The satellite pings assumed nothing of the aircraft's course. They established that the aircraft was on a certain arc at a certain time. Some sections of the arc (really a circle) were impossible for various reasons (the section over the equator to the east is impossible as the aircraft would have been seen by a satellite further east, to the west would have been out of range of the 777). Some of the frequency offsets in the signal from the aircraft further isolated that to the southern arcs. The intersection of an assumed straight flight and the last arc is the "high probability" search area.
 
GSP psgr
Posts: 665
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RE: Aircraft Flap Found In La Réunion (RUN) Part 2

Thu Jul 30, 2015 6:11 pm

Am I the only one really happy that it's the French handling this debris and not the Malaysians, who have proved to be far from competent in this whole thing?
 
L-188
Posts: 29881
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RE: Aircraft Flap Found In La Réunion (RUN) Part 2

Thu Jul 30, 2015 6:13 pm

Quoting jpetekyxmd80 (Reply 3):
Look how beat up the ailerons got on US1549. In a lot of ways the flaperon is in pretty remarkable condition

I wouldn't rely on photos of US1549 as being indicative of the damage that is caused by a water landing. Most of those photos are from after the aircraft was lifted out of the river and a lot of the damage was actually from the tugboats and cranes moving that aircraft around. Not the actual crash itself.

Quoting YoungMans (Reply 79):

The flaperon would have floated horizontally, i.e. only partially submerged.
It would have been visible from the air; mind you, from which height and distance is not so certain.

Hell, I have a 96 quart all white Igloo cooler that would pass for that part from an airplane in a search.

Quoting JetBuddy (Reply 118):
And I'm not sure it's that smart dismissing that the suitcase(s) recently found in the same area could be from MH370. The pictures I've seen are just shreds of nylon fabric and zippers which easily could float for months or years. Unlike someone mentioned earlier in this thread, a suitcase can actually stay afloat for a long time, even if it was weighed down with content. Either way, the suitcase I've seen was shredded.

Agreed, I used to do a lot of beachcombing and it is amazing what you can fine up on the beach. We used to see a lot of stuff from Korea, China and Japan.
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