JoeCanuck
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RE: Aircraft Flap Found In La Réunion (RUN) Part 2

Thu Jul 30, 2015 6:24 pm

Quoting Luv2cattlecall (Reply 146):
I know aviation is expensive...but what makes a flaperon cost as much as a few Cessnas, a helicopter, a Rolls-Royce, or a decent sized house?

Product liability insurance.
What the...?
 
B777fan
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RE: Aircraft Flap Found In La Réunion (RUN) Part 2

Thu Jul 30, 2015 6:33 pm

Quoting Luv2cattlecall (Reply 146):
I know aviation is expensive...but what makes a flaperon cost as much as a few Cessnas, a helicopter, a Rolls-Royce, or a decent sized house?

I took those numbers as just a made up example of how repair costs work, not actual cost. (Not sure what it really costs but I doubt it is cheap)
 
TXspotter
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RE: Aircraft Flap Found In La Réunion (RUN) Part 2

Thu Jul 30, 2015 6:43 pm

Quoting m1m2 (Reply 142):
In any case, MAS should know whether or not that flaperon on 9M-MRO was ever replaced.

MAS would know. Even though airlines can change parts, each part has ppwk tracing it back to birth.

Quoting Luv2cattlecall (Reply 146):
Out of curiosity, how much do those actuators cost? Also, are they hydraulic or electric? It's amazing how quick they are.

They are hydraulic. I am not sure if they have a way to move on electrical or pneumatic power like other high lift devices

Quoting Luv2cattlecall (Reply 146):
I know aviation is expensive...but what makes a flaperon cost as much as a few Cessnas, a helicopter, a Rolls-Royce, or a decent sized house?

hard question but for flaperon, i would not think it costs as much as a Cessna. I used $500k as an example.

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 150):
Product liability insurance.

Without going into detail, I think its more R&D than insurance.
 
AirGAbon
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RE: Aircraft Flap Found In La Réunion (RUN) Part 2

Thu Jul 30, 2015 6:51 pm

Quoting GSP psgr (Reply 148):
Am I the only one really happy that it's the French handling this debris and not the Malaysians, who have proved to be far from competent in this whole thing?

I guess very lucky that the debris have been found in the French overseas department of Reunion, if this part of the wing would have reach, for instance the coast of Madagascar, I am sure that no one would have even heard about it and the debris would be now kept in coastline villages to be used for house, roof, kitchen materials etc.!

In the area, only Mauritius and Reunion (and of course more further in the West, South Africa) have the administration and capacities to face this kind of situation.
 
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RE: Aircraft Flap Found In La Réunion (RUN) Part 2

Thu Jul 30, 2015 6:58 pm

Quoting AirGabon (Reply 153):
I guess very lucky that the debris have been found in the French overseas department of Reunion, if this part of the wing would have reach, for instance the coast of Madagascar, I am sure that no one would have even heard about it and the debris would be now kept in coastline villages to be used for house, roof, kitchen materials etc.!

In the area, only Mauritius and Reunion (and of course more further in the West, South Africa) have the administration and capacities to face this kind of situation.

I wonder if the powers that be may now start asking about and offering $$$ for items found on the coast in Madagascar.
 
lancelot07
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RE: Aircraft Flap Found In La Réunion (RUN) Part 2

Thu Jul 30, 2015 7:09 pm

Quoting GSP psgr (Reply 154):

Certainly they will search especially the northern coasts of all islands in the vicinity. Unfortunately, Madagascar is mostly parallel to the current. And we have to remember that it was very lucky that this part was washed ashore at all, considering how vast the ocean is and how small La Reunion.

But I do not think it will give much information - except that they are searchin in the right ocean. The fuselage and the boxes still have to be found. Still, finding the first piece of the airliner is a major event, even if not a mojor clue.
 
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Aesma
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RE: Aircraft Flap Found In La Réunion (RUN) Part 2

Thu Jul 30, 2015 7:10 pm

Quoting vfw614 (Reply 130):
But given the projections of the currents, debris that began its journey in the current search area should not have reached LA Reunion yet, but sometime between September 2015 and February 2016. Does this make it more likely that the crash site was further to the west?

You forget the wind.
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RE: Aircraft Flap Found In La Réunion (RUN) Part 2

Thu Jul 30, 2015 7:17 pm

Sorry if this has been asked before. But with this discovery, have they dispatched any aircraft to do a surface scan of the area for more possible debris floating around? It would seem like a logical step, regardless if the piece is confirmed or not.
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RE: Aircraft Flap Found In La Réunion (RUN) Part 2

Thu Jul 30, 2015 7:19 pm

Quoting GSP psgr (Reply 148):

I share your sentiments. The French will do a fine technical job. The Malaysians... Need to admit air crash investigation requires expertise they lack.

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DUSdude
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RE: Aircraft Flap Found In La Réunion (RUN) Part 2

Thu Jul 30, 2015 7:20 pm

Quoting ACDC8 (Reply 157):
Sorry if this has been asked before. But with this discovery, have they dispatched any aircraft to do a surface scan of the area for more possible debris floating around? It would seem like a logical step, regardless if the piece is confirmed or not.

Supposedly a French helicopter has departed Reunion to look for more stuff on the surface.
 
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RE: Aircraft Flap Found In La Réunion (RUN) Part 2

Thu Jul 30, 2015 7:23 pm

Quoting vikinga346 (Reply 112):
CNN is now reporting that it is confirmed that the flaperon is from a Boeing 777. This pretty much solidifies that it must be from MH370 as no other 777 has crashed in this part of the world that has parts missing

Actually, I disagree to a degree..

While the inclination is to BELIEVE that this part must be from MH370, we're only closer to confirming that it belongs to a 777 aircraft - and even at this point, neither Boeing or MAS have 100% concretely confirmed that this item IS a 777 part.

Secondarily, a good investigation won't arrive at a conclusion (ie, this IS MH370's flaperon) without first exhausting ALL other available means of collecting evidence.

I'll feel a little more confident saying this is MH370's flaperon if we are able to concretely identify a sn, and/or other identifiable (SN) parts show up on shore.

I know it's far-fetched, but there's always the possibility that someone threw something into the ocean to create a story / hype... human beings are known for loving excitement, even highly trained professionals. I believe this is highly unlikely, but a good investigator won't come to a conclusion unless they have strong evidence to do so.

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RE: Aircraft Flap Found In La Réunion (RUN) Part 2

Thu Jul 30, 2015 7:25 pm

Quoting ACDC8 (Reply 157):
Sorry if this has been asked before. But with this discovery, have they dispatched any aircraft to do a surface scan of the area for more possible debris floating around? It would seem like a logical step, regardless if the piece is confirmed or not.

The French authorities have been scanning the area close to Reunion using helicopters.
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JetBuddy
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RE: Aircraft Flap Found In La Réunion (RUN) Part 2

Thu Jul 30, 2015 7:26 pm

Quoting WarrenPlatts (Reply 143):
I could be wrong of course since we only have these grainy photos to go off of. Thus, if an expert could figure out that the barnacles are a full 18 months old, then that would exclude the southern region, and the likely search area would be in the north off the coast of Perth!

Thanks for taking time to respond to my post.   Yes, a maritime biologist would most likely be able to pinpoint the age of the barnacles, and together with meterologist and oceanographers they could figure out exactly what latitude the barnacles started forming on the flaperon. Together with already known data about longtitude based on fuel on board and last locations, we'd have both longtitude and latitude of the crash/ditch. And there's probably more biological evidence on the flaperon than the barnacles.

Quoting richierich (Reply 145):
I don't necessarily agree with this statement. To assume that the investigators will be able to piece together what happened to MH370 based on this one piece of debris is asking a lot!!

Yes, it's asking a lot for sure. But like you suggested yourself, finding out the cause of the crash is a whole lot of deduction. And by analyzing this flaperon the aeronautical experts could get a lot of information. The dents, how they formed, by what force was the flaperon ripped from the wing, if the flaps were lowered, approximate speed of the impact, angle of the impact, if the flaperon came off during flight and many other things. Most chemical residue would most likely be gone by now though.

Together with the barnacles and other biological evidence (like I mentioned above your quote) and the likelyhood of discoveries of other debris from the crash within the next weeks and months, I think we'll get very close to the truth. And that's what I wrote in my original post as well. We'll get close to the truth, if not find out exactly what happened.

Quoting GSP psgr (Reply 148):

Am I the only one really happy that it's the French handling this debris and not the Malaysians, who have proved to be far from competent in this whole thing?

I have full confidence in the French aerospace experts and investigators in Toulouse and Le Bourget as well.

[Edited 2015-07-30 12:29:49]
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Aircraft Flap Found In La Réunion (RUN) Part 2

Thu Jul 30, 2015 7:38 pm

Quoting Luv2cattlecall (Reply 146):
Quoting Txspotter (Reply 121):
xample: A new flaperon costs $500,000
We would give them our new flaperon for $50,000
We would get their damaged flaperon and get it repaired, another $50,000
we would bill the airline for the repair and now have another unit ready to sell.

The airline has payed $100,000 for a new unit instead of $500,000

I know aviation is expensive...but what makes a flaperon cost as much as a few Cessnas, a helicopter, a Rolls-Royce, or a decent sized house?

This:



or this:

http://www.acrewind.com/Maintenance%20Release%20Certificate.jpg


Jan
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ATCGOD
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RE: Aircraft Flap Found In La Réunion (RUN) Part 2

Thu Jul 30, 2015 7:45 pm

Quoting lnglive1011yyz (Reply 160):
I know it's far-fetched, but there's always the possibility that someone threw something into the ocean to create a story / hype... human beings are known for loving excitement, even highly trained professionals. I believe this is highly unlikely, but a good investigator won't come to a conclusion unless they have strong evidence to do so.

True, but you have to admit that it's an expensive throw away if someone is trying to set this up as a red herring.

Also, let's not forget that the initial search area was the South China Sea. I believe they searched that area exhaustively for awhile before they received the Inmarsat data and started looking in the South Indian Ocean. So, the floating debris may have traveled a ways before searchers were in the relative area.
 
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RE: Aircraft Flap Found In La Réunion (RUN) Part 2

Thu Jul 30, 2015 7:54 pm

Quoting WarrenPlatts (Reply 143):

The scientist in me is hopeful that with the microscope that the Indian Ocean has been under since the crash, we can hopefully work backwards and deduce the location of the crash site
  

If Immarsat had been more open about their information earlier, I'm sure that the debris might have been spotted before (much more of it) sank and the debris field was relatively intact.
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RE: Aircraft Flap Found In La Réunion (RUN) Part 2

Thu Jul 30, 2015 7:58 pm

Quoting ATCGOD (Reply 164):
True, but you have to admit that it's an expensive throw away if someone is trying to set this up as a red herring.

Oh, no doubt - As I said, while I believe that line of thinking to be extremely far-fetched, with the lack of a Serial #, or anything else to identify MH370, we're stuck in circumstantial evidence.

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RE: Aircraft Flap Found In La Réunion (RUN) Part 2

Thu Jul 30, 2015 8:13 pm

Quoting JetBuddy (Reply 162):
Thanks for taking time to respond to my post. Yes, a maritime biologist would most likely be able to pinpoint the age of the barnacles, and together with meterologist and oceanographers they could figure out exactly what latitude the barnacles started forming on the flaperon. Together with already known data about longtitude based on fuel on board and last locations, we'd have both longtitude and latitude of the crash/ditch. And there's probably more biological evidence on the flaperon than the barnacles.

Hopefully, Messier Pouplin will have a chance to look at the barnacle specimens when the part is in France. Doesn't sound like they took any special steps to preserve the biological evidence though... (Prolly don't watch CSI down there!   ) Really, after the initial look-see, they should have reimmersed it in oceanwater to minimize any disturbance to the fauna. I would have recommended to put the whole thing in a big aquarium for the flight to France if that would be possible, or at least carefully collect a few specimens while they still alive and send them back separately....
 
N415XJ
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RE: Aircraft Flap Found In La Réunion (RUN) Part 2

Thu Jul 30, 2015 8:14 pm

Someone mentioned a while back (don't remember if it was this or the first thread) that it may be junk that the maitenence department at La Reunion disposed of. Of course, aviation professionals should know how to dispose of such was properly, but I'm wondering... how would it be disposed of? Say, for example, they had to take a flaperon of an Air Austral 777. Something happens to it (it falls, gets run over by a truck, etc...), and it cannot be economically repaired. What would they do with it? Perhaps it was given to a scrapper, and it exchanged hands several times before being dumped into the sea, by accident or on purpose?
 
m1m2
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RE: Aircraft Flap Found In La Réunion (RUN) Part 2

Thu Jul 30, 2015 8:16 pm

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 163):
This:

You nailed it Jan!
 
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anfromme
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RE: Aircraft Flap Found In La Réunion (RUN) Part 2

Thu Jul 30, 2015 8:17 pm

Quoting lancelot07 (Reply 155):
And we have to remember that it was very lucky that this part was washed ashore at all, considering how vast the ocean is and how small La Reunion.

Well, in the coming weeks/months we could see
a) more pieces found around La Réunion
b) more pieces found washed up at Mauritius, Madagascar, and/or the African continent
c) all of the above.

Quoting lnglive1011yyz (Reply 160):
While the inclination is to BELIEVE that this part must be from MH370, we're only closer to confirming that it belongs to a 777 aircraft - and even at this point, neither Boeing or MAS have 100% concretely confirmed that this item IS a 777 part.

True, but... at this point, we've seen (not least here) quite a lot of pretty solid hints that what was found is indeed a flaperon from a 777.
So in order to assume this is not a flaperon from MH370, you have to assume that a 777 flaperon - not the most common object in the world - somehow found its way into the Indian ocean.
Sure, you have to double- and triple-check to be sure that this flaperon isn't one that e.g. fell off a ship/rubber dingy. But its appearance in an ocean where, just about 16 months ago, a plane presumably crashed that happens to be of the same type that the flaperon belongs to means it is indeed pretty likely that the flaperon was once a part of said crashed plane.

Believing instead that, for example, somebody deliberately placed the flaperon there certainly requires the bigger leap of faith.

Quoting lnglive1011yyz (Reply 160):
I know it's far-fetched, but there's always the possibility...

I'm all in favour of not jumping to conclusions - but at this point, coming up with any scenario where this is a) not a 777 flaperon and by extension b) not a flaperon from MH370 requires an increasing amount of construction work with increasingly shaky foundations.

Of course, conspiracy theorists won't be deterred. As has been pointed out before - the less likely their hypotheses are, the (ironically) more likely they are to them. Because the higher the level of improbability, the more it shows what great lengths the conspiracists are willing to go. Crazy people are crazy.
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klwright69
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RE: Aircraft Flap Found In La Réunion (RUN) Part 2

Thu Jul 30, 2015 8:20 pm

Quoting N14AZ (Reply 77):

Quoting 77west (Reply 73):
Quoting GRJGeorge (Reply 72):If confirmed, will they perhaps expand a search for more debris in that area, on sea and along the coasts of Reunion, Mauritius, Rodrigues, Madagascar...if there's more it might even be possible that might have already drifted past these islands and going south again?
I firmly believe that not only will they expand the search, but they will find more debris as well.


But even if they will find more debris, this will not explain what happened. Remember AF447. They found the tail fin and a part of the crew rest area but could only conclude how the tail fin was ripped of from the fuselage. At that time we still didn't had a clue what had happened onboard AF447.

Partly true. They learned a lot from the debris of AF 447. The learned pretty early on the aircraft pancaked on the ocean. Things like galley carts and other items were destroyed in a way consistent with vertically hitting the ceiling for instance.
 
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Miami
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RE: Aircraft Flap Found In La Réunion (RUN) Part 2

Thu Jul 30, 2015 8:28 pm

Here is the panel number:



[Edited 2015-07-30 13:54:30]

[Edited 2015-07-30 13:55:12]
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JetBuddy
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RE: Aircraft Flap Found In La Réunion (RUN) Part 2

Thu Jul 30, 2015 8:29 pm

Quoting WarrenPlatts (Reply 167):
Hopefully, Messier Pouplin will have a chance to look at the barnacle specimens when the part is in France. Doesn't sound like they took any special steps to preserve the biological evidence though... (Prolly don't watch CSI down there!   ) Really, after the initial look-see, they should have reimmersed it in oceanwater to minimize any disturbance to the fauna. I would have recommended to put the whole thing in a big aquarium for the flight to France if that would be possible, or at least carefully collect a few specimens while they still alive and send them back separately....


Yes, I've been worried some schmuck scraped them off prior to sending the unit to mainland France. It would be the same type of person who would stumble upon an invaluable ancient artifact, then polish it nice and shiny before handing it over to the experts. But I'm sure there's people with common sense down there.  
Quoting N415XJ (Reply 168):
Say, for example, they had to take a flaperon of an Air Austral 777. Something happens to it (it falls, gets run over by a truck, etc...), and it cannot be economically repaired. What would they do with it? Perhaps it was given to a scrapper, and it exchanged hands several times before being dumped into the sea, by accident or on purpose?

That almost sounds more far fetched than the conspiracy theory where MH370 supposidly lands on an island of quicksand and is swallowed whole. 
 
lnglive1011yyz
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RE: Aircraft Flap Found In La Réunion (RUN) Part 2

Thu Jul 30, 2015 8:31 pm

Quoting anfromme (Reply 170):
Of course, conspiracy theorists won't be deterred. As has been pointed out before - the less likely their hypotheses are, the (ironically) more likely they are to them. Because the higher the level of improbability, the more it shows what great lengths the conspiracists are willing to go. Crazy people are crazy

True, and I do agree with you.

But I would find it hard to believe that the investigators would make a statement that this must be from MH370, simply because there is no evidence to prove otherwise, without any other evidence, despite the fact that it would be extremely unlikely a random flaperon would show up in the Indian Ocean where MH370 is suspected to have disappeared.

I suspect there'll be a much larger search near the area it was found, in order to find some other corroborating evidence, before they declare this to be part of MH370.

I'm strictly saying from an investigative point of view - you do NOT assume something, just because any evidence doesn't exist to dispell your thought process - you have to have FACT. You can have working theories, but then you have to prove them, just like they do for every accident where the cause isn't necessarily staring you right in the eyes.

There's a high probability that this is from MH370, so hopefully something else comes along that can concretely prove so.

That's all  

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m1m2
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RE: Aircraft Flap Found In La Réunion (RUN) Part 2

Thu Jul 30, 2015 8:31 pm

Quoting Miami (Reply 172):
Here is the serial number:

That isn't a serial number. That's the number Boeing uses to identify the panel in their AMM. In some inspection somewhere it will say to remove panel 657 BB to carry out that inspection.
 
TXspotter
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RE: Aircraft Flap Found In La Réunion (RUN) Part 2

Thu Jul 30, 2015 8:40 pm

Quoting Miami (Reply 172):

Not a SN. Nothing more than a panel number. That panel number is not unique to a specific flaperon so the only thing to conclude with 100% accuracy is that this is a B777 flaperon.

Quoting m1m2 (Reply 175):
That isn't a serial number. That's the number Boeing uses to identify the panel in their AMM. In some inspection somewhere it will say to remove panel 657 BB to carry out that inspection.

Correct
 
karadion
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RE: Aircraft Flap Found In La Réunion (RUN) Part 2

Thu Jul 30, 2015 8:41 pm

Quoting Miami (Reply 172):

That's a panel #. Look at this maintenance manual for MAS' 777's. Right Wing Flaperon
 
N415XJ
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RE: Aircraft Flap Found In La Réunion (RUN) Part 2

Thu Jul 30, 2015 8:55 pm

Quoting JetBuddy (Reply 173):

That almost sounds more far fetched than the conspiracy theory where MH370 supposidly lands on an island of quicksand and is swallowed whole. 

Why? Stranger things have happened than a broken piece of metal being misplaced. I'm not saying that its likely, but I don't think that its impossible or akin to a conspiracy theory. How smooth/reliable are official dealings (such as the treatment/disposal of airplane parts) on Reunion? If they're as organized as things on mainland France I'd say my theory is extraordinarily unlikely, but if they're more like a 3rd-world country I wouldn't entirely discount it.
 
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Miami
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RE: Aircraft Flap Found In La Réunion (RUN) Part 2

Thu Jul 30, 2015 8:56 pm

Quoting m1m2 (Reply 175):
Quoting Txspotter (Reply 176):
Quoting Karadion (Reply 177):

Good eyes. Sorry about that, I wasn't really paying attention. Thank you.


Note to self: Pay more attention and more coffee!
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karadion
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RE: Aircraft Flap Found In La Réunion (RUN) Part 2

Thu Jul 30, 2015 9:16 pm

Okay, so this particular component may explain why it may have survived for so long. The list of materials states that the skin is made of Glass Fiber Reinforced Plastic laminate, the bonded parts is a GFRP honeycomb sandwich on the leading edge & skin panel, and the upper/lower skin panel is a CFRP honeycomb sandwich. So there would be a ton of air pockets in the honeycomb sandwich that may have contributed to why it didn't sink compared to the rest of the aircraft. Am I getting this right?
 
flymia
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RE: Aircraft Flap Found In La Réunion (RUN) Part 2

Thu Jul 30, 2015 9:18 pm

Quoting Txspotter (Reply 176):
That panel number is not unique to a specific flaperon so the only thing to conclude with 100% accuracy is that this is a B777 flaperon.

If that is the case, it would be shocking if this part did not come from MH 370 then. I doubt there are many random $500,000 777 flaperon's floating around the ocean without a known loss of the panel etc..

Unless of course, someone placed it there..
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Western727
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RE: Aircraft Flap Found In La Réunion (RUN) Part 2

Thu Jul 30, 2015 9:20 pm

Forgive me for potentially rehashing an old question. It's been almost two days now, and I would think that it's quick and easy to positively identify the flaperon's "identity" by serial number. Why has this still not happened?
Jack @ AUS
 
WarrenPlatts
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RE: Aircraft Flap Found In La Réunion (RUN) Part 2

Thu Jul 30, 2015 9:24 pm

Because the serial number is on a separate nameplate that's apparently missing....
 
KELPkid
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RE: Aircraft Flap Found In La Réunion (RUN) Part 2

Thu Jul 30, 2015 9:34 pm

Quoting Karadion (Reply 180):
Okay, so this particular component may explain why it may have survived for so long. The list of materials states that the skin is made of Glass Fiber Reinforced Plastic laminate, the bonded parts is a GFRP honeycomb sandwich on the leading edge & skin panel, and the upper/lower skin panel is a CFRP honeycomb sandwich. So there would be a ton of air pockets in the honeycomb sandwich that may have contributed to why it didn't sink compared to the rest of the aircraft. Am I getting this right?

Yeah, that and the fact that it is also relatively light compared to the volume of water that it displaces...heck, it may have even been buoyant if the inner "compartment" was compromised and allowed to fill with seawater  
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spacecadet
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RE: Aircraft Flap Found In La Réunion (RUN) Part 2

Thu Jul 30, 2015 9:34 pm

It's disheartening that *every* MH370 thread - even ones related to factual events - has to turn into a conspiracy soapbox. Some people have been watching too many LOST episodes. Charles Widmore is not a real person, guys.

Quoting anfromme (Reply 170):
at this point, coming up with any scenario where this is a) not a 777 flaperon and by extension b) not a flaperon from MH370 requires an increasing amount of construction work with increasingly shaky foundations.

Occam's razor applies here as anywhere else. The conclusion that requires the fewest jumps in logic tends to be the right one.

Quoting lancelot07 (Reply 155):
Still, finding the first piece of the airliner is a major event, even if not a mojor clue.

It most certainly is a major clue. Investigators can tell a lot from this single piece of evidence, up to and including the likely accident scenario. They can tell if this part was ripped off in the air or at impact, what direction it ripped off in, how much force was imparted on it and what direction that force came from, among other things. Remember when investigators basically had AF447's crash sequence figured out after discovering a section of galley? Same principle here.

Not to mention what some others already have, that computer modeling can, with coarse accuracy, work backwards to determine approximately where this flaperon came from. And it can do so with probability attached, which could help refine the search area.

They're not going to get into anyone's head and figure out whether someone deliberately crashed the plane based on this piece of evidence, but they will almost definitely know basically how the airplane hit the water, how fast it was going, what its angle of attack was and more after close examination.

It's also pretty likely that more wreckage will now turn up in the coming weeks and months, and the more that does, the more data the investigators will have to plug into the computer models and refine the search area.
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747megatop
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RE: Aircraft Flap Found In La Réunion (RUN) Part 2

Thu Jul 30, 2015 9:37 pm

Quoting WarrenPlatts (Reply 102):
Barnacles are not mussels (a type of mollusk), they're actually a type of arthropod--a completely different phylum, but barnacles do have a fairly definite growth rate. The goose barnacles found on the flaperon probably grow ~1 to 2 cm/year, so they're consistent with the part coming from 9M-MRO.

Now..now. Aren't we treading on uncharted territory here? Isn't this best left to the Barnacologists?
 
Pihero
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RE: Aircraft Flap Found In La Réunion (RUN) Part 2

Thu Jul 30, 2015 9:53 pm

Quoting Karadion (Reply 177):
That's a panel #. Look at this maintenance manual for MAS' 777's. Right Wing Flaperon

Is it just me or is it that the Maintenance Manual drawing of the part was for the *left wing* ? (see where the inboard side is)
In which case the numbering is wrong.
Unless 777s have a habit of shedding their flaperons right left and center all over the world - which they certainly don't do- we can now be fairly sure this one belonged to MH370.

Can we derive some conclusions as to what happened to the plane ?
Not a lot.
What is quite obvious is this is a rather well sheltered piece during a ditching :
A/- Pilot-controlled ditching ==> flaps are down. See this picture :

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Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Jaysen F. Snow - Midwest Tail Chasers


One can see that the flaperon trailing edge is some 3 to 5 feet higher than the inboard double-slotted flap : it therefore touches the water some time after the flap, hence at a reduced speed from the initial impact one. The speed would have already been reduced by the engine hitting the water ( in all probability been torn off ).
The speed seemed sufficient to have ripped the trailing edge of the flaperon in a more-or-less straight line.

B/- Uncontrolled pancake ==> flaps are up. See this picture :

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Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Jonathan Rankin


One can see that the trailing edges of the flaps and the flaperon (s) are aligned.
In this case, the engines hit first ( and got torn off)... There could be a slight nose-up movement of the aircraft as the CoG would move aft and the water would mainly be pulling both the flaps and the flaperons backwar'd. The leading edges are protected by their fitting in the wing trailing edge, but their rear part would be damaged.
The flaperon is further protected by the engine pylon which would provoke a wake.

Unfortunately there is no details on the pics for the underside of the flaperon, which could reveal more on how the actuators have been ripped off ( torsion or vertical stress or plain rearward movement or any combination of the three ).

There is no way to favor either A or B for the time being with these pictures.

As for a fall into the ocean... I would have expected - since the beginning of these threads - more catastrophic damage and hence a lot more debris.

[Edited 2015-07-30 14:56:25]
Contrail designer
 
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Joshu
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RE: Aircraft Flap Found In La Réunion (RUN) Part 2

Thu Jul 30, 2015 9:58 pm

NBC is reporting that their sources confirm that the piece of aircraft found belongs to a B772.
Washington-Baltimore Spotters Group
 
karadion
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RE: Aircraft Flap Found In La Réunion (RUN) Part 2

Thu Jul 30, 2015 10:03 pm

Quoting Pihero (Reply 187):
Is it just me or is it that the Maintenance Manual drawing of the part was for the *left wing* ? (see where the inboard side is)

That's the Boeing manual, so no. That's for the right wing. This is the left wing. Do you see where the arrow says FWD? It helps shows what side the component is on.
 
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Miami
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RE: Aircraft Flap Found In La Réunion (RUN) Part 2

Thu Jul 30, 2015 10:12 pm

Prime Minister of Australia on the possibility of being MH370 "we may be on the verge of some confirmation"
Aviation is proof that given, the will, we have the capacity to achieve the impossible. - Eddie Rickenbacker
 
747megatop
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RE: Aircraft Flap Found In La Réunion (RUN) Part 2

Thu Jul 30, 2015 10:14 pm

Quoting Joshu (Reply 188):
NBC is reporting that their sources confirm that the piece of aircraft found belongs to a B772.

Nothing new IMHO. CNN was claiming the same thing yesterday. Heard the same claim on radio too saying Boeing has said that the wreckage belongs to a 772. Some of the folks on this thread too have confirmed that the flap belongs to a 772..for all you know NBC and CNN's source might be this thread   LoL.
I think a positive confirmation (official communication) from BEA would be big news to everybody versus CNN, NBC etc. saying "their sources confirm".
 
oxymorph
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RE: Aircraft Flap Found In La Réunion (RUN) Part 2

Thu Jul 30, 2015 10:25 pm

CNN reporting that "internal US intel assessment concluded that MH370 was deliberately steered off course by someone in the cockpit".

They are also reporting that they have exhaustively cleared ALL the pax and cabin crew.
 
Osubuckeyes
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RE: Aircraft Flap Found In La Réunion (RUN) Part 2

Thu Jul 30, 2015 10:41 pm

Quoting oxymorph (Reply 192):

CNN reporting that "internal US intel assessment concluded that MH370 was deliberately steered off course by someone in the cockpit".

Lets bring it back to earth

http://www.cnn.com/2015/07/30/politi...vities-u-s-intelligence/index.html

Quote:
The intelligence assessment falls short of establishing any firm conclusions of what happened to MH370. But it could renew focus on the two pilots, or perhaps someone else, in the aircraft's cockpit.
 
B777fan
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RE: Aircraft Flap Found In La Réunion (RUN) Part 2

Thu Jul 30, 2015 10:47 pm

Quoting Pihero (Reply 187):
Is it just me or is it that the Maintenance Manual drawing of the part was for the *left wing* ? (see where the inboard side is)
In which case the numbering is wrong.

Both left and right maintenance pages have been posted or linked to so the one you saw could well be left instead of right.

657BB however is clearly stated in the manual as the right flaperon. The recovered flaperon matches the right wing maintenance page.
 
WarrenPlatts
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RE: Aircraft Flap Found In La Réunion (RUN) Part 2

Thu Jul 30, 2015 11:01 pm

Quoting 747megatop (Reply 186):
Now..now. Aren't we treading on uncharted territory here? Isn't this best left to the Barnacologists?

Actually, people that study barnacles would be "cirripediologists", of whom Charles Darwin himself was a noted exemplar.

I understand that many of of you all are mainly concerned with exactly what happened on the inside of that plane. However, we will never be able to conclusively answer that question until we find out WHERE the crash happened.

The Inmarsat data proved crucial, as it was about the ONLY evidence that MH370 was diverted to SIO. Still, the resultant search area is HUGE. Therefore, any clue at all, including biological evidence, that can further constrain the search area would be extremely helpful. IMHO. YMMV.

While I am no cirripediologist, I do happen to have an MS in fishery biology (in addition to my geology degree), and I've studied phylogenetic and biogeographic theory quite a bit. So I'm probably one of the few people on this forum who can quickly dig into the cirripediology literature, understand the jargon, and hopefully scoop up some useful information.

That said, barnacles are problematic because they have such wide geographic distributions. Still, there is some biogeographic diversity among Lepas sp.

Now, it turns out that Lepas anatifera is sometimes also known as the "long-necked barnacle" because individuals are typically supported by an unusually long (for barnacle species) stalk or peduncle, which can be quite striking as a quick google image search for "Lepas anatifera" will show.

In addition, Lepas anatifer is characterized by scarlet to orange edges of its plates.

But the picture of the flaperon shows drab colored goose barnacles lacking long necks.

IOW, they look to me more like Lepas australis goose barnacles. These are a cold water species that make the Antarctic circumpolar current their main breeding grounds. This current extends north up to perhaps 40*S, so if the flaperon were colonized by L. australis barnacles, that would indicate that the crash site is most likely in the extreme southern area of the search area, as in about 39*S 87*N. Just sayin'.

Alternatively, they could perhaps be true Lepas anatifera that haven't had time to develop long necks yet, possibly indicating a colonization event that happened quite a while after the known crash time, which would also indicate a southern crash site. Or they could be Lepas anatifera that are fully 17 months old, and that would indicate a northern crash site.

Of course, I'm no expert in cirripediology, that's why it's absolutely mandatory that bona fide cirripediologists be granted access to the actual specimens attached to the flapiron. Because, as my initial foray shows, the species and age of the barnacles can say quite a bit about at least the water temperature, and hence the latitude of the initial colonization event. As it stands now, there is only speculation about such things as the speed and course of the aircraft, whether their was a pilot, and other esoterica that can constrain the latitude of the search area band--and these are anybody's guess, I'm the first to admit. Any other clues that could further constrain the search area would seem to be a good thing IMO.
 
oxymorph
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RE: Aircraft Flap Found In La Réunion (RUN) Part 2

Thu Jul 30, 2015 11:04 pm

Quoting osubuckeyes (Reply 193):
Lets bring it back to earth

I didn't know we were ever in orbit. Here's the first paragraph:

"(CNN)A preliminary assessment by U.S. intelligence agencies, produced in the wake of the MH370 disaster, suggested it was likely someone in the cockpit deliberately caused the aircraft's movements to go off course before the Malaysian airliner disappeared'.
 
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flyingturtle
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RE: Aircraft Flap Found In La Réunion (RUN) Part 2

Thu Jul 30, 2015 11:13 pm

Quoting WarrenPlatts (Reply 195):

That's one informative posting! Thank you for sharing this!


David
Reading accident reports is what calms me down
 
Pihero
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RE: Aircraft Flap Found In La Réunion (RUN) Part 2

Thu Jul 30, 2015 11:17 pm

Quoting Karadion (Reply 189):
That's the Boeing manual, so no.
Quoting B777fan (Reply 194):
Both left and right maintenance pages have been posted or linked to so the one you saw could well be left instead of right.

For crying out loud !
See the page linked to by Karadion # 177 . : 57 - 05 - 03

If it's the right flaperon, it follows that the *inboard side* is in the left of the drawing,especially when the *FWD* direction is noted : the inner side should be on the right of the page... So...The drawing is for the left wing... and in this case, the parts numbering should be switched over.

... as the discussions as to conspiracies and crime + suicide, they shouldn't be on this thread. 80 + haven't brought anything anywhere.
Contrail designer
 
gcb5196
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RE: Aircraft Flap Found In La Réunion (RUN) Part 2

Thu Jul 30, 2015 11:35 pm

Quoting JetBuddy (Reply 128):
Interesting business model, sounds lucrative.

Not to mention airlines might also have their own sheet metal/composite shops and do the work in house. So really just the cost of labor and materials for a "new" part.

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