DL To Start B739ER Service West Coast-Hawaii?

ANA787 · Thu Jul 30, 2015 7:28 pm

According to this forum yes!

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/delta...y-737-900er-hawaii-starts-feb.html

I suppose this means DL will make both SFO/PDX-HNL year round.

MesaFlyGuy · Thu Jul 30, 2015 7:32 pm

Quoting ana787 (Thread starter):
I suppose this means DL will make both SFO/PDX-HNL year round.

Isn't PDX-HNL only running for a few weeks around Christmas?

United_fan · Thu Jul 30, 2015 7:40 pm

Didn't UA switch off 739 flying to Hawaii due to range and payload issues?

calpsafltskeds · Thu Jul 30, 2015 8:04 pm

UA is currently running 739s and 738s to Hawaii. I believe they remove 739s during the heavy Spring westbound headwind season.

DualQual · Thu Jul 30, 2015 8:05 pm

Quoting United_fan (Reply 2):

There's one SFO-KOA today that's a 739ER. The range/payload issues are generally overblown here. At times they happen but HNL/KOA have lengthy runways.

brilondon · Thu Jul 30, 2015 8:40 pm

Yeah we get 737s to fly to the mainland instead of 757s...

I don't see this as anything special or a change except for those who sit in the very back of the plane, they can get off the aircraft quicker than the 753s.

brilondon · Thu Jul 30, 2015 8:45 pm

Quoting United_fan (Reply 2):
Didn't UA switch off 739 flying to Hawaii due to range and payload issues?

The DL aircraft are of the ER variety where as the UA aircraft are non-ER so you would be comparing apples to oranges.

BoeingGuy · Thu Jul 30, 2015 8:49 pm

Quoting brilondon (Reply 5):
I don't see this as anything special or a change except for those who sit in the very back of the plane, they can get off the aircraft quicker than the 753s.

Not like lengthy de-boarding times of 753s should be totally new to Hawaii travelers. UA flew DC-8-61/71s to Hawaii for many years.

Polot · Thu Jul 30, 2015 8:52 pm

Quoting brilondon (Reply 6):
The DL aircraft are of the ER variety where as the UA aircraft are non-ER so you would be comparing apples to oranges.

Only 12 of UA's 739s are non-ERs (and I doubt are ever used to Hawaii). The other ~120 are the ER variant just like DL's.

United1 · Thu Jul 30, 2015 9:02 pm

Quoting Polot (Reply 8):

Quoting brilondon (Reply 6):
The DL aircraft are of the ER variety where as the UA aircraft are non-ER so you would be comparing apples to oranges.

Only 12 of UA's 739s are non-ERs (and I doubt are ever used to Hawaii). The other ~120 are the ER variant just like DL's.

The 12 737-900s are ETOPS but I have never seen one route to Hawaii...

DualQual · Thu Jul 30, 2015 9:05 pm

Quoting United1 (Reply 9):

They've gone to Hawaii. Not often but they have.

brilondon · Thu Jul 30, 2015 9:08 pm

Quoting Polot (Reply 8):

Quoting brilondon (Reply 6):
The DL aircraft are of the ER variety where as the UA aircraft are non-ER so you would be comparing apples to oranges.

Only 12 of UA's 739s are non-ERs (and I doubt are ever used to Hawaii). The other ~120 are the ER variant just like DL's.

I stand corrected.

peanuts · Thu Jul 30, 2015 9:11 pm

The B737-900ER in Delta's configuration should "cure" a few Skymiles "slaves" from the crazy notion to always book on the same carrier of choice (=voluntary enslavement).

Thanks Delta! The awareness is spreading.

Let's just hope not everyone follows suit.

HALFA · Thu Jul 30, 2015 10:15 pm

I just checked seat guru and it shows the configuration of 20 F Class seats with one lavatory up front, and 160 economy seats with no lavatories in the middle or at the F/Y divider and just 3 lavatories all the way in the back for the 160 Y passengers.
Sounds like a flight attendant nightmare! Good luck DL FA's!

Aloha,
HALFA

northwestEWR · Thu Jul 30, 2015 10:21 pm

Quoting HALFA (Reply 13):
I just checked seat guru and it shows the configuration of 20 F Class seats with one lavatory up front, and 160 economy seats with no lavatories in the middle or at the F/Y divider and just 3 lavatories all the way in the back for the 160 Y passengers.
Sounds like a flight attendant nightmare! Good luck DL FA's!

Aloha,
HALFA

Not a single person aside from the accountants like the 900ER at Delta. It's a giant pain in the can. I hope this isn't true and that we continue sending the 757s to Hawaii. Especially with all the cargo we haul on those routes.

azjubilee · Thu Jul 30, 2015 11:25 pm

Quoting northwestEWR (Reply 14):

Just curious... After all the bags are loaded on those 757s, how much meaningful belly cargo is actually carried? You got any rough estimates in pounds?

calpsafltskeds · Thu Jul 30, 2015 11:31 pm

I ran the 12 UA 739 non ERs through Flight Aware and none have been to HNL since 4/1/15 for what its worth. With every subsequent 739ER added to the fleet, it should be very easy to keep the non ERs off certain routes.

Regarding the 739 vs. 739ER, I believe they have the same fuel capacity/engines with the difference being the 739 has the same MGTOW weight of the 738, over 13K lbs. less than the 739ER. I guess if the headwinds and payload is low on each direction, the 739 could do Hawaii.

calpsafltskeds · Fri Jul 31, 2015 12:32 am

If DL has lots of 752s they should send them to Hawaii as there are no penalties. Put all the bags and cargo you can fit realizing the 752 has an eventual retirement date.

But, keep in mind that accountants like this - UA says the 739ER saves $2 million per year per unit when the 739ER is subbed for the 752 and that includes fuel, ownership cost, minor revenue reduction due to fewer seats, maint, and maybe diversions for fuel. With slimline seats, revenue from seat loss should help the bottom line even more. UA has retired 68 752s since the merger, so that's $136 million per year savings with another 13 or so to go. I would guess DL is thinking the same for its 739ER.

compensateme · Fri Jul 31, 2015 12:43 am

Quoting CALPSAFltSkeds (Reply 18):
But, keep in mind that accountants like this - UA says the 739ER saves $2 million per year per unit when the 739ER is subbed for the 752 and that includes fuel, ownership cost, minor revenue reduction due to fewer seats, maint, and maybe diversions for fuel. With slimline seats, revenue from seat loss should help the bottom line even more. UA has retired 68 752s since the merger, so that's $136 million per year savings with another 13 or so to go. I would guess DL is thinking the same for its 739ER.

Cost accounting is a mythical somewhat arbitrary science; in spite of that, $2M is difficult number to believe, especially in today's fuel enviroment. UA's decision to retire the 757 has more to do with the age of the aircraft coupled with the deal struck to sell them to FedEx. DL, OTOH, has a large number of late-build 757 that it recently added to -- including plenty that are ETPS -- making the decision to add ETOPS & insure the frames across the Pacific somewhat of a head scratcher. (And from a passenger standpoint, the refrub'd 757 won't look much different than the 739.)

tlecam · Fri Jul 31, 2015 12:11 pm

I have a question - is the 739 more adversely affected by headwinds than other similar single aisles (738, 320 etc...)? Meaning, does it fly more slowly when faced with headwinds because it's relatively underpowered (or whatever the reason may be).

ec99 · Fri Jul 31, 2015 2:11 pm

Quoting HALFA (Reply 13):
I just checked seat guru and it shows the configuration of 20 F Class seats with one lavatory up front, and 160 economy seats with no lavatories in the middle or at the F/Y divider and just 3 lavatories all the way in the back for the 160 Y passengers.
Sounds like a flight attendant nightmare! Good luck DL FA's!

From just about every perspective the 737-900 looks worse than the 757 version that it is replacing on the Hawaii route (http://www.seatguru.com/airlines/Delta_Airlines/Delta_Airlines_Boeing_757-200_Hawaii_75V.php).

However, the bathroom issue is the one area where it doesn’t seem to be much of a change. The 757s they fly to Hawaii also only have three lavs for coach, all of which are in the back of the plane.

That said, it is amazing they are putting more seats on the 739 than the 757 they normally fly to Hawaii. I guess this is easy to do when you reduce first class leg pitch by 7-9 inches and coach legroom by 1-3 inches.

roseflyer · Fri Jul 31, 2015 3:06 pm

I think he 900ER gets a bad reputation on this website since it has a very long takeoff roll. Aviation enthusiasts tend to find it boring compared to airplanes like the 757. Unfortunately in the world of debated takeoffs combined with its low rotation angle make it boring. Some also think the A321 looks more like a 757 due to it being taller and having more doors. Again not that big of an impact once you are on it, but I understand the reason owning since this website did start as a photography website.

With that said, there is nothing wrong with it flying to Hawaii. It does have the range. There was a huge thread about a United 737 bumping passengers including a veteran that seemed to establish a reputation as it having insufficient range for Hawaii. I think that event was caused by a maintenance deferral that required a performance limitation, which is an airline decision.

In general I think some are very critical which is somewhat understood. The delta 737s don't have a mid cabin lavatory and economy walks through first class on boarding so it might not be as desirable.

Quoting tlecam (Reply 21):

I have a question - is the 739 more adversely affected by headwinds than other similar single aisles (738, 320 etc...)? Meaning, does it fly more slowly when faced with headwinds because it's relatively underpowered (or whatever the reason may be).

The 737-900ER is not under powered and cruises just as fast as other 737s for the most part. The 737-900ER may have a lower initial cruising altitude than a 737-800 due to the higher weights. The 737-700 and 737-800 tend to be the best of the current generation narrow bodies for getting higher. The 737-900ER will cruise at a similar altitude as an A320 and A321 on a similar mission. The lower an airplane must fly, the less options it has to find more favorable winds and rides.

United1 · Fri Jul 31, 2015 3:19 pm

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 25):
There was a huge thread about a United 737 bumping passengers including a veteran that seemed to establish a reputation as it having insufficient range for Hawaii. I think that event was caused by a maintenance deferral that required a performance limitation, which is an airline decision.

Just a a point of clarification that was a 738 which as you said had MTC deferred item on it....

mpdpilot · Fri Jul 31, 2015 5:23 pm

Quoting peanuts (Reply 12):
The B737-900ER in Delta's configuration should "cure" a few Skymiles "slaves" from the crazy notion to always book on the same carrier of choice (=voluntary enslavement).

Thanks Delta! The awareness is spreading.
Let's just hope not everyone follows suit.

Have you flown on one? As a passenger who flies DL almost exclusively, I would go out of my way to fly on a 737-900ER over one of the old 757s. With the new Sky Interior, it is far and away an improvement over some of DLs 757s.

Quoting HALFA (Reply 13):
Not a single person aside from the accountants like the 900ER at Delta. It's a giant pain in the can. I hope this isn't true and that we continue sending the 757s to Hawaii. Especially with all the cargo we haul on those routes.

I can see how DL employees might not be a fan, but from a passenger's perspective, it is a fantastic aircraft.

This past summer/Spring I did a flight on an original interior 738, I think it was an old 5600 series 757 (I can't be sure), and a 737-900ER. If I had to choose between those three aircraft for a flight to Hawaii, I'd pick the 900ER every time.

Av8rDAL · Fri Jul 31, 2015 6:38 pm

Quoting mpdpilot (Reply 27):
I can see how DL employees might not be a fan, but from a passenger's perspective, it is a fantastic aircraft.

Did you fly up front or in economy? Sure, the First Class experience is great with the huge PTVs and all. But try planning your trip to the lav with 160 other pax with the same idea. Add 4 flight attendants taking their time with the beverage/snack service during a 5 hour transcon, blocking the single aisle.

While waiting in the galley for a lav to open up, I usually talk to Delta F/As and have not had a single one tell me they're a fan of the 739 due to the lav layout and small galley area. Lavs are tiny, too. Almost like Southwest's.

If it makes sense, I'll go through the curtain into F and use theirs. No shame!

The only positives I have with this plane are the new PTVs and large bins.

mpdpilot · Fri Jul 31, 2015 7:02 pm

Quoting Av8rDAL (Reply 28):

Nope, not in F. I fly economy exclusively. As for the lavatory concern, I have never had a problem. Perhaps I have a large bladder. Even with that concern, I would still take a 900ER over the 75 or 738 with the old interior.

For the flight attendants, I can see how those long skinny aircraft can be a challenge. No argument on that.

b727fa · Fri Jul 31, 2015 8:42 pm

The new -800 interiors are very attractive.

STT757 · Sat Aug 01, 2015 1:07 pm

Quoting mpdpilot (Reply 27):
Have you flown on one? As a passenger who flies DL almost exclusively, I would go out of my way to fly on a 737-900ER over one of the old 757s. With the new Sky Interior, it is far and away an improvement over some of DLs 757s.

Last month I took the family to Cancun and I had my first trip on a Sky interior 737, a 2014 build UA 737-900ER. It's amazing how much more modern the plane looked and felt then the 2008 build 737-800 we flew back. I would imagine the difference becomes more stark if you were to compare one of DL's new Sky interior 737-900ERs to one of their domestic 757s.

I would agree though DL not going for the mid-cabin lav seems strange if they're using them on longer trips.

northwestEWR · Sat Aug 01, 2015 3:08 pm

Quoting mpdpilot (Reply 29):

Quoting Av8rDAL (Reply 28):

Nope, not in F. I fly economy exclusively. As for the lavatory concern, I have never had a problem. Perhaps I have a large bladder. Even with that concern, I would still take a 900ER over the 75 or 738 with the old interior.

For the flight attendants, I can see how those long skinny aircraft can be a challenge. No argument on that.

You say that until you end up on a new interior 757. Those are beautiful and super spacious.

The old 757 and domestic 767s can be pretty brutal in terms of updated cabins and PTVs but once they've been refurbed the 739 looks like crap again.

flyboy80 · Sat Aug 01, 2015 4:06 pm

Who has the densest 739ER interior? I would imagine DL with the 20F seats and still managing to have a high Y count.

I know UA alone has possibly more then a few variants, and I'm not sure which one is considered the standard one for good comparison to Alaska or Delta.

United1 · Sat Aug 01, 2015 4:12 pm

Quoting flyboy80 (Reply 34):
I know UA alone has possibly more then a few variants, and I'm not sure which one is considered the standard one for good comparison to Alaska or Delta.

UAs aircraft are all either in or are moving to a 20F/42Y+/117Y configuration...

flyboy80 · Sat Aug 01, 2015 4:18 pm

Quoting United1 (Reply 35):
UAs aircraft are all either in or are moving to a 20F/42Y+/117Y configuration...

Are they reconfiguring the forward galley? I'm under the impression the FWD facing galley at door 1R is full-size cart stowage, whereas Delta has half carts in this location, essentially increasing cabin space.

United1 · Sat Aug 01, 2015 5:15 pm

Quoting flyboy80 (Reply 36):

Quoting United1 (Reply 35):
UAs aircraft are all either in or are moving to a 20F/42Y+/117Y configuration...

Are they reconfiguring the forward galley? I'm under the impression the FWD facing galley at door 1R is full-size cart stowage, whereas Delta has half carts in this location, essentially increasing cabin space.

That I am not sure about...CALTECH can probably tell you if you send him a PM. I do know that some of the newest deliveries have the micro lav between F and Y+ vs the standard sized mid-cabin lav on the rest of the fleet. The seating capacity didn't change from 179 with the smaller lav however.

BrianDromey · Sat Aug 01, 2015 6:08 pm

Quoting Av8rDAL (Reply 28):

Just willingly remaking the law, then? Your needs are obviously far more important and self-entitled than those who have paid extra (either by cash or miles) to bring it from first class. Nice.

I don't understand why a mid cabin lav is so desirable? Surely having 3 toilets grouped together will make queue times shorter. As posted out elsewhere, on the 757 DL also has 3 lavs for Y.

United1 · Sat Aug 01, 2015 6:16 pm

Quoting BrianDromey (Reply 41):
I don't understand why a mid cabin lav is so desirable? Surely having 3 toilets grouped together will make queue times shorter. As posted out elsewhere, on the 757 DL also has 3 lavs for Y.

It's not that big of a deal except when the F/As have a cart in the aisle...then you just hope that nature doesn't call

The advantages of the mid-cabin lav are simply that it prevents you from being trapped on the other side of the cart from the lav and also if I am flying in F and the forward lav is occupied I can always walk back and use the mid cabin lav.

Okcflyer · Sun Aug 02, 2015 2:35 pm

The 739ER wins against the A321 in a couple metrics, the most important being operating cost. Sure, it take more runway to get off the ground but that is only a concern when enough runway doesn't exist. Many argue the A321 sold more copies therefore it must be better. Such an argument fails to consider reasoning. Truth is, the A320 is fuel limited and therefore range limited. Need long range? Got to buy a A321. The A320 is also smaller than the 738. The need to upgauge from A320 to A321 capacity is realistic. The 738 is basically in between. It's for this reason many A320 operators have purchased A321 while B738 operators haven't had the need to. No flaming needed for either side. B738 advantages negate the reasoning most A320 operators have been springing for A321's.

The only true Niche may be the A321neoLR. That's said, most fuel is burnt on shorter flights where such capability is a disadvantage. An overwhelming majority of segments are less than 1000 miles. In for the "volume" areas, the MAX will still have advantage. In the end, they're well balanced hence market spilt is basically 50/50.

Sending 739's to Hawaii is a major upgrade in my eyes. 20 First seats is a big step up from the 738's.

Only the seats in the front of coach have issues with the rear lavs. Everyone else has time to get there or get back before the cart reaches them. And in the event the cart blocks you, it's only for 30 minutes at max. Turbulence can keep you seated for longer than that. Find something else to B about because that is about as small of an issue as there can be.

BrianDromey · Sun Aug 02, 2015 2:46 pm

Quoting United1 (Reply 42):

Quoting BrianDromey (Reply 41):
I don't understand why a mid cabin lav is so desirable? Surely having 3 toilets grouped together will make queue times shorter. As posted out elsewhere, on the 757 DL also has 3 lavs for Y.

It's not that big of a deal except when the F/As have a cart in the aisle...then you just hope that nature doesn't call The advantages of the mid-cabin lav are simply that it prevents you from being trapped on the other side of the cart from the lav and also if I am flying in F and the forward lav is occupied I can always walk back and use the mid cabin lav.

Most of my flights, admittedly in Europe, there are two carts, one from the front and the other from the rear, so it makes no difference. If, however, there is only one cart then it makes a difference. Service must take forever with just one cart!

calpsafltskeds · Sun Aug 02, 2015 3:41 pm

Quoting OKCFlyer (Reply 45):
Only the seats in the front of coach have issues with the rear lavs. Everyone else has time to get there or get back before the cart reaches them. And in the event the cart blocks you, it's only for 30 minutes at max. Turbulence can keep you seated for longer than that. Find something else to B about because that is about as small of an issue as there can be.

However, the DL Comfort+ (E+) people have to walk a minimum of 24 rows to get to the bathroom.

Prost · Sun Aug 02, 2015 7:17 pm

During the YC service, if YC passengers are blocked from using the law, the FC lav is open for them to use. The only favor I ask my passengers is that they queue behind the curtain so the front cabin isn't crowded, and I'm able to continue my service to them. It isn't ideal as a mid lav, but I haven't had any problems with this method on flights from ATL-west coast, so I can't imagine it won't be any more difficult in flights to Hawaii.

I find the exercises of 'what if' can get a bit out of hand. 99.99% of passengers can see that there is a lav, and that it's reasonable to be asked to wait outside of the first class cabin to use it.

United1 · Sun Aug 02, 2015 7:51 pm

Quoting BrianDromey (Reply 46):
Most of my flights, admittedly in Europe, there are two carts, one from the front and the other from the rear, so it makes no difference. If, however, there is only one cart then it makes a difference. Service must take forever with just one cart!

Generally goes fairly fast as you have 2-3 F/As working coach on a 737-900ER. On longer flights UA runs two carts simultaneously (BoB and a drink cart) both start from the front and work their way back. Shorter flights without BoB use just one cart but still work front to back...would assume DL/AA does the same...

I don't think any airline does domestic cart service in F...

IADCA · Sun Aug 02, 2015 8:08 pm

Quoting DualQual (Reply 4):
There's one SFO-KOA today that's a 739ER. The range/payload issues are generally overblown here. At times they happen but HNL/KOA have lengthy runways.

FWIW, I'm booked on a 739 (don't know the variant) for that leg next month. I was a bit surprised to see it, but not an issue for me. I'll be on vacation.

b727fa · Mon Aug 03, 2015 6:02 am

Yes--except that DL uses a train of 1/2 carts for that service.

Who is online

Popular Searches On Airliners.net