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Independence76
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Delta 191: 30 Years Ago

Sun Aug 02, 2015 5:59 pm

Just noticed on Aviation Safety Network that today is the 30th anniversary of Delta Air Lines 191 from FLL-DFW. It was an L-1011 with 163 people on board which crashed short of runway 17L (now 17C) due to microburst/windshear, killing 134 of the occupants. A driver in a vehicle was also killed when they were hit by the aircraft.

This was the crash that was the game-changer for windshear detection technology as well as the widespread expansion of Dopplar radar seen at every commercial airport worldwide.

There's current a small memorial for the crash at Founder's Plaza (planespotting park) which was erected 5 years ago for the 25th anniversary. I attended the event in 2010 and some survivors and the CEO of DFW airport were present.

Accident information and final report:
http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19850802-0

Air Crash Investigation/Mayday episode:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pADVkfv1PDU
 
phatfarmlines
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RE: Delta 191: 30 Years Ago

Sun Aug 02, 2015 6:17 pm

I used to think that had those water tanks not been there, the pilots perhaps could have had a fighting chance to stop the plane, but there was already damage to the plane after hitting the car on Highway 114 and some light posts. I don't remember if TOGA power was applied after the captain called for it. The Air Crash Investigation episode video, though briefly, showed fire to engine #1 and a bent underbelly landing gear after the impact on Highway 114.

In a what-if scenario, the NTSB report stated the plane likely would have struck some of the cargo planes on the east ramp or would have flipped upside-down.
 
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jsnww81
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RE: Delta 191: 30 Years Ago

Sun Aug 02, 2015 6:47 pm

Quoting phatfarmlines (Reply 1):
I used to think that had those water tanks not been there, the pilots perhaps could have had a fighting chance to stop the plane, but there was already damage to the plane after hitting the car on Highway 114 and some light posts. I don't remember if TOGA power was applied after the captain called for it. The Air Crash Investigation episode video, though briefly, showed fire to engine #1 and a bent underbelly landing gear after the impact on Highway 114.

Survivors (sitting in the tail section) reported that very intense fire had entered the fuselage before the main impact with the tanks, on the left side of the cabin near the wing root. Had the plane not hit the tanks, I'd say DL191 would have either a.) stopped near the runway threshold and been a burning-aircraft evacuation or b.) continued slewing left and struck the aircraft on the east cargo ramp. There would still have been fatalities, mostly in the center section where the fire had already penetrated, but the passengers in the forward cabin would have had a fighting chance.

As it happened, most of them died of impact trauma when the forward cabin hit the tanks. Passengers in the center section died mostly of thermal injuries, many of them probably before the tanks were struck.

I always think about the accident when landing on 17C. The plane first entered the microburst as it passed over SH-121 and I-635, and the rapid loss of altitude occurred between I-635 and SH-114. The field where the plane first touched down is now full of warehouses, so the aircraft wouldn't have it made it to 114 and the water tanks had the accident happened today.

I was five years old and living in Dallas (Carrollton) when this happened. I do have some vague memories of it, mostly of news footage as TV stations kept cutting into cartoon shows with updates.
 
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jsnww81
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RE: Delta 191: 30 Years Ago

Sun Aug 02, 2015 6:57 pm

As an aside, this lengthy article ran in the Fort Lauderdale Sun-Sentinel about a year after the crash. Many of the victims and passengers were from south Florida where the flight originated. This is one of the best accounts of DL191 I've come across:

Part 1:
http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/198...lta-flight-attendants-driveway-car

Part 2:
http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/198...1_1_wendy-robinson-attendant-plane

Part 3:
http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/198...272_1_seat-belt-unbuckled-wreckage

Part 4:
http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/198.../8602140273_1_flight-home-jet-rain
 
L1011Lover
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RE: Delta 191: 30 Years Ago

Sun Aug 02, 2015 7:01 pm

It was a horrible tragedy and even though I was only 9 years old at the time I vividly remember it. Ever since it happened I'm thinking about the victims and the survivors on every August 2nd!

Flight Attendant Wendy Robinson-Fernsell was one of the survivors. Here's her story:

http://www.mypalmbeachpost.com/wendyrobinson/#f9055d55.2561339.735810

The pilots were ATL based, while the FA's were based in MIA/FLL

Representative for all people involved (victims, survivors and rescue personell) here are the names of the ill-fated flight crew:

Captain Edward M. Connors
First Officer Rudy P. Price
Second Officer Nick N. Nassick
Lead Flight Attendant Frances Alford
Flight Attendant Freida Artz
Flight Attendant Joan Modzelwski
Flight Attendant Alyson Lee
Flight Attendant Diane Johnson
Flight Attendant Jenny Amatulli (survivor)
Flight Attendant Vickie Chavis (survivor)
Flight Attendant Wendy Robinson (survivor)

God bless them!

Best regards
L1011Lover
 
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DFWflightpath
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RE: Delta 191: 30 Years Ago

Sun Aug 02, 2015 7:46 pm

I appreciate this thread a lot. At age 8 in the DFW area, I was already an aviation enthusiast when Delta 191 met it's unfortunate end. The news stories and images from that day stuck with me. It's impossible not to think about the lives lost when driving near the north boundary of DFW on state highway 114.

Today's Dallas Morning News article about how the crash led to advances in wind shear detection and avoidance:

http://www.dallasnews.com/news/trans...85-helped-start-wind-of-change.ece
 
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mikelive
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RE: Delta 191: 30 Years Ago

Sun Aug 02, 2015 8:51 pm

Here is a write-up from the National Weather Service office in Fort Worth.

http://www.srh.noaa.gov/fwd/?n=delta191
 
Q
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RE: Delta 191: 30 Years Ago

Mon Aug 03, 2015 12:00 am

I have a friend of mine Delta pilot (retired 1990's). I called his wife. She told me that he is safe but he is going to fly FLL-DFW-LAX tomorrow same flight 191. She heard news and screamed not sure which date he was on flight. He was in FLL and heard the news he ran to phone to call her. What a scary story. I also I remember I met co pilot L1011 name First Officer Mr Price. He was involved killed in crashed. I felt so bad and saddened!

Q
 
thegoldenargosy
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RE: Delta 191: 30 Years Ago

Mon Aug 03, 2015 2:17 am

There's still a small memorial in the FA lounge in FLL for the 5 FLL based FA's that died. It brings awareness of the crash to FA's who weren't even born when DL191 went down.
 
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jmw99ttu
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RE: Delta 191: 30 Years Ago

Mon Aug 03, 2015 2:42 am

I was 8 growing up in Arlington, on the south side of the airport, when this happened. My parents had been out that day running errands and came home talking about all of the fire trucks and ambulances out on the roads. I'll never forget the front page of the Fort Worth Star-Telegram the next day with the picture of the tail of the plane. Oddly, that began my fascination with aviation.

When I was in college I worked for DL at DFW and there were still a bunch of employees who worked there at the time and had grim stories from the day.

My current commute to work takes me down 114 along the north side of the airport. At least once a week I think of DL191 coming down right where I'm driving and get a bit of a chill.
 
cha747
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RE: Delta 191: 30 Years Ago

Mon Aug 03, 2015 2:45 am

I remember watching DL 191 Docudrama Fire and Rain on USA Network in 1989. Here is a clip from youtube (not entire film)

Fire and Rain Part 1

[Edited 2015-08-02 19:48:13]
Piedmontgirl was always right
 
aa87
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RE: Delta 191: 30 Years Ago

Mon Aug 03, 2015 5:01 am

I remember this vividly. I was 17 spending my first summer in DC right after graduating high school. We were watching TV in a dorm lounge at Georgetown University when news came on. I immediately said it was wind shear and other kids looked at me like, what is that and how do you know ? I said I was certain. I had done a wind shear research project in high school, all I had to hear was AC on final in bad thunderstorm, crash on landing, and I knew ...

Obviously the captain was blamed for continuing the approach even after seeing lightning from one of the dark clouds ahead, but like the captain of the Titanic, I believe a certain complacency builds up over many hours of transport experience. So many had continued approaches like that and made it fine, probably him as well. For comparison read the CVR of the EA 727 at JFK in '75. The FO or FE actually said "this is nuts" about 2 min bf they crashed. And I think any line captain will admit to having flown approaches that in hindsight probably were not smart.

Years ago I was on a DL 767 landing in JAX, got dark and ugly and very bumpy. They broke off the approach, circled 15 min and came back in no problem. I know standard happens all the time but I told the captain great job.

Rest in peace to all on DL 191.
 
Max Q
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RE: Delta 191: 30 Years Ago

Mon Aug 03, 2015 6:05 am

Quoting aa87 (Reply 11):
They broke off the approach, circled 15 min and came back in no problem.

This often makes all the difference.


I simply don't land at or depart from an airport with convective activity that cannot be avoided. I will go and hold somewhere
until its no longer or a threat and divert if necessary.


It simply isn't worth the risk
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


GGg
 
Pihero
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RE: Delta 191: 30 Years Ago

Mon Aug 03, 2015 10:24 am

Quoting Independence76 (Thread starter):
This was the crash that was the game-changer for windshear detection technology as well as the widespread expansion of Dopplar radar seen at every commercial airport worldwide.

It's been more, much more than that, Morgan :

Soon after the accident, most simulation companies issued a DFW windshear pattern that was used by all airlines to train their crews and make them aware of the dangers of continuing the approach in windshear ( the terrm microburst came later).

Most of us ( and I was then flying Tristars ) who experienced the pattern realised that going around and wait somewhere else was the only choice one could make.

This as a tribute to the crew and passengers of the flight 191.

Quoting Max Q (Reply 12):
I simply don't land at or depart from an airport with convective activity that cannot be avoided. I will go and hold somewhere

  
Contrail designer
 
skaggs
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RE: Delta 191: 30 Years Ago

Mon Aug 03, 2015 12:13 pm

I was 15 at a summer camp in Cape Cod. My Dad was a DL L1011 FO @ DFW. I was able to confirm it wasn't him pretty quickly thankfully.
 
WA707atMSP
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RE: Delta 191: 30 Years Ago

Mon Aug 03, 2015 1:52 pm

I think crew complacency was a factor in both the DL L1011 crash and the PA 727 crash three years earlier in MSY, because both crews had flown through thunderstorms so many times before that they didn't take them seriously enough.

The NTSB report on the DL crash even said that almost all of DL's route system was exposed to strong thunderstorms.
 
trent1000
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RE: Delta 191: 30 Years Ago

Mon Aug 03, 2015 1:54 pm

Quoting Independence76 (Thread starter):
due to microburst

or 'cold air downdraft', the existence of which was determined by the late, great "Ted" Fujita, who became an American citizen & worked in Chicago.

The tornado F scale also comes from his name.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ted_Fujita
 
WA707atMSP
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RE: Delta 191: 30 Years Ago

Mon Aug 03, 2015 2:00 pm

Quoting trent1000 (Reply 16):
or 'cold air downdraft', the existence of which was determined by the late, great "Ted" Fujita, who became an American citizen & worked in Chicago.

The tornado F scale also comes from his name.

The August, 1977 issue of National Geographic has a cover story about air safety, which discusses Dr. Fujita and his role in the Eastern JFK crash investigation.

The picture on the cover is of an L-1011 flying along the California coast taken from one of the first tail mounted cameras.

The magazine is definitely worth buying!
 
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william
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RE: Delta 191: 30 Years Ago

Mon Aug 03, 2015 2:08 pm

Quoting jsnww81 (Reply 2):
Survivors (sitting in the tail section) reported that very intense fire had entered the fuselage before the main impact with the tanks, on the left side of the cabin near the wing root. Had the plane not hit the tanks, I'd say DL191 would have either a.) stopped near the runway threshold and been a burning-aircraft evacuation or b.) continued slewing left and struck the aircraft on the east cargo ramp. There would still have been fatalities, mostly in the center section where the fire had already penetrated, but the passengers in the forward cabin would have had a fighting chance.

As it happened, most of them died of impact trauma when the forward cabin hit the tanks. Passengers in the center section died mostly of thermal injuries, many of them probably before the tanks were struck.

I always think about the accident when landing on 17C. The plane first entered the microburst as it passed over SH-121 and I-635, and the rapid loss of altitude occurred between I-635 and SH-114. The field where the plane first touched down is now full of warehouses, so the aircraft wouldn't have it made it to 114 and the water tanks had the accident happened today.

I was five years old and living in Dallas (Carrollton) when this happened. I do have some vague memories of it, mostly of news footage as TV stations kept cutting into cartoon shows with updates.

Remember watching Channel 8 news when the news broke. Since then I have read the NTSB report and still have many questions-

1. The report states the PIC could have easily flew out of the microburst, he had the altitude, but for some reason stuck to the approach.
2. Yes, the field where 191 touched down is now full of warehouses, but if the PIC would have increased the angle, could he had leaped frogged 21, still hitting the tops of the lights , but not at the wing root.
 
LovesCoffee
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RE: Delta 191: 30 Years Ago

Mon Aug 03, 2015 2:50 pm

I remember that day well. I lived in Carrollton and had gone to pick up my wife at the park & ride. It was sunny and cool, probably from the downdraft of the thunderstorms close by. I looked west as I waited and saw thick black smoke rising from what appeared to be DFW airport and thought "that can't be good". The smoke was different, darker and thicker than smoke from grass or a house fire. Then the news came over the radio that an airliner had crashed at DFW. No word on survivors or what airline. It continued on the news for several days as the picture became clearer and we started to grasp the magnitude and horror of the crash. As we used 114 regularly, in the following days and months, we could always see the dented, crumpled water tank that had taken the direct hit. It always reminded us of the crash that had taken so many people so close to our home. God bless Ted Connors, Rudy Price and Nick Nassick, busy until impact trying to save as many people as possible. And RIP to those that died that day.
Life is too short for cheap coffee.
 
klwright69
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RE: Delta 191: 30 Years Ago

Mon Aug 03, 2015 3:29 pm

And this crash was really terrible. IBM had 10 of its best engineers on the plane, only 1 survived.

Here is another absolutely heartwrenching story of a married couple who survived, and the wife nearly didn't and she has permanent disability. But it's touching. And they were supposed to be in first class also which would have killed them.
http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/199...es-delta-air-lines-muffin-business


Several survivors lived for weeks after the crash only to succumb to injuries. Their injuries were that bad.

This survivor later died, Kathleen Wright, a prominent community member.

http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/198...oward-county-commission-convention

Greg Lapedus died 6 weeks later.
http://www.nytimes.com/1985/09/15/us/136th-victim-in-dallas-crash.html

And Mark Visich, who had his legs amputated with burns over 80 percent of his body.
http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/...athy-ford-burns-critical-condition

What is really amazing is that a few survivors had no injuries. One was seen walking around the crash site and police told her to clear the area and she said, "I am a survivor."

Some survivors said they never knew a cigarette would save their lives, since they were in the smoking section.

[Edited 2015-08-03 08:42:48]

And 12 year old Richard Laver survived because he was thrown 100 yards from the plane, wearing no seat belt saved him.
http://themighty.com/2015/01/this-pl...his-daughter-gave-him-a-reason-to/


[Edited 2015-08-03 08:50:44]

[Edited 2015-08-03 08:51:17]
 
Sooner787
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RE: Delta 191: 30 Years Ago

Mon Aug 03, 2015 4:35 pm

Those water tanks still have wrinkles in the impact area to this day.

Kinda surprised the airport didn't completely replace those tanks,

but it's a visible reminder of what happened that fateful day
 
klwright69
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RE: Delta 191: 30 Years Ago

Mon Aug 03, 2015 5:25 pm

I think think that crashes with multiple survivors are always very fascinating. Their stories are incredible. Their stories of survival and recovery capture our imaginations and leave us in awe.

Another shocking story.
http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/198...0601_1_delta-air-lines-plane-crash
This accident with multiple survivors reminds me of PA 1736 (and KLM-no survivors obviously).

I read one of the articles referenced. Survivor Kathy Ford was in a coma and died 10 years later-absolutely shocking.

I don't believe there has been another windshear related crash since then.
 
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rj968
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RE: Delta 191: 30 Years Ago

Mon Aug 03, 2015 6:42 pm

This is the "Caring" pin that Delta sent to employees that worker is event at DFW. From the customer service agents that worked with the families to the Rampers/cargo/cabin service folks that cleaned up the accident sight.

Delta 'caring' pin


RJ
 
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jsnww81
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RE: Delta 191: 30 Years Ago

Mon Aug 03, 2015 7:00 pm

Quoting klwright69 (Reply 22):
I don't believe there has been another windshear related crash since then.

USAir Flight 1016 in Charlotte (in summer 1994) was ultimately attributed to windshear - it occurred during an aborted landing attempt. Much lower death toll, and included some survivors, but I believe that was the last major windshear-related crash we've had in the US.

Coming on the heels of the terrible 1975-85 period - EA66, PA759 and DL191 - you're correct that the record has been very admirable since then, though.
 
LH707330
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RE: Delta 191: 30 Years Ago

Mon Aug 03, 2015 7:35 pm

Quoting klwright69 (Reply 22):
I don't believe there has been another windshear related crash since then.

AF358 was a microburst, that could have been much uglier.
 
Alnicocunife
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RE: Delta 191: 30 Years Ago

Tue Aug 04, 2015 1:49 am

The worst is the last words on the CVR from ATC stating "Delta, go around". I feel sick listening to it. They got behind the power curve and could not get out.

https://youtu.be/dKwyU1RwPto
 
PlanesNTrains
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RE: Delta 191: 30 Years Ago

Tue Aug 04, 2015 2:16 am

Quoting jsnww81 (Reply 3):
As an aside, this lengthy article ran in the Fort Lauderdale Sun-Sentinel about a year after the crash. Many of the victims and passengers were from south Florida where the flight originated. This is one of the best accounts of DL191 I've come across:

Thanks so much for posting those links. I just finally finished reading them and it was really fascinating and humbling at the same time.

-Dave
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
BoeingGuy
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RE: Delta 191: 30 Years Ago

Tue Aug 04, 2015 5:48 am

Quoting LH707330 (Reply 25):
AF358 was a microburst, that could have been much uglier.

AF358 was a runway excursion, not really a microburst issue. Of course, they should have been in YOW instead of trying to land.
 
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777Jet
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RE: Delta 191: 30 Years Ago

Tue Aug 04, 2015 6:53 am

Quoting klwright69 (Reply 20):

I remember the story from Johnny Meier who said that smoking saved his life:


""
Before leaving Fort Lauderdale that afternoon, Meier changed seats moving from the front of the plane to the smoking section in the back.

The tail section remained intact. That s where the 31 survivors were.

Smoking saved my life in a way, because if I didn't smoke I would have been sitting in Row 15, Meier said.""

http://www.wfaa.com/story/news/local/2014/08/09/13607432/
DC10-10/30,MD82/88/90, 717,727,732/3/4/5/7/8/9ER,742/4,752/3,763/ER,772/E/L/3/W,788/9, 306,320,321,332/3,346,359,388
 
LovesCoffee
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RE: Delta 191: 30 Years Ago

Tue Aug 04, 2015 4:50 pm

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 29):
The tail section remained intact. That s where the 31 survivors were.

Actually, there were 8 survivors not in the tail section, 7 of which had "thermal injuries" and all has serious injuries.

Life is too short for cheap coffee.
 
klwright69
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RE: Delta 191: 30 Years Ago

Tue Aug 04, 2015 9:37 pm

Hi LovesCoffee, I wonder who was on row 20? Talk about a miracle. That is an interesting seating chart.
 
hondah35
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RE: Delta 191: 30 Years Ago

Tue Aug 04, 2015 11:15 pm

I was 8 years old and we were heading north on Belt Line Road in Irving heading toward Irving Mall for dinner when we saw the smoke. We were only 7-8 miles from the crash and saw the smoke but it wasn't clear that it was a crash because the thunderstorm didn't appear that big or threatening when we saw the smoke. It was only after we entered the mall and saw coverage of the crash on some of the TV screens in an electronics store that we realized what had happened.
 
FlyASAGuy2005
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RE: Delta 191: 30 Years Ago

Tue Aug 04, 2015 11:38 pm

Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 15):

The Craxy thing with this crash.. a light a/c was right ahead of them and passed through the same cloud formation and landed without incident.

Quoting klwright69 (Reply 31):

Row 20 only had one pax and they didn't survive.

What I find interesting are the cases where pax sitting side by side.. One surviving, one not.. Very morbid.
What gets measured gets done.
 
Brick
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RE: Delta 191: 30 Years Ago

Tue Aug 04, 2015 11:45 pm

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 29):
I remember the story from Johnny Meier who said that smoking saved his life:


""
Before leaving Fort Lauderdale that afternoon, Meier changed seats moving from the front of the plane to the smoking section in the back.

The tail section remained intact. That s where the 31 survivors were.

Smoking saved my life in a way, because if I didn't smoke I would have been sitting in Row 15, Meier said.""

http://www.wfaa.com/story/news/local/2014/08/09/13607432/

There was a passenger that survived Air Florida 90 that went into the Potomac River who said the same thing. His family had been begging him to quit smoking for years. Yet because he had not quit and was seated in the smoking section at the rear of the 737, he survived.
A noble spirit embiggens the smallest man...
 
L1011Lover
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RE: Delta 191: 30 Years Ago

Wed Aug 05, 2015 12:10 am

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 33):
Quoting klwright69 (Reply 31):

Row 20 only had one pax and they didn't survive.

He obviously meant the survivor in seat 21J ! And yes, that's what I call a miracle!
 
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aloha73g
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RE: Delta 191: 30 Years Ago

Wed Aug 05, 2015 12:11 am

Quoting klwright69 (Reply 31):
Hi LovesCoffee, I wonder who was on row 20? Talk about a miracle. That is an interesting seating chart.

One of the longer articles linked above mentioned a 12 y/o boy who wasn't wearing his seat belt and was thrown from the plane. His dad who was belted in next to him did not survive.

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 33):
What I find interesting are the cases where pax sitting side by side.. One surviving, one not.. Very morbid.

There was mention of this too in one of the long articles...2 seats that were ejected from the plane with one passenger surviving and the other decapitated.
Aloha Airlines - The Spirit Moves Us. Gone but NEVER Forgotten. Aloha, A Hui Hou!
 
kakk80
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RE: Delta 191: 30 Years Ago

Wed Aug 05, 2015 1:26 am

Wow. I can't believe its been 30 years. I worked at the Amfac Hotel at DFW at the time (now the Hyatt). Fresh out of college working at the front desk. It was my first close experience with a big disaster. I remember checking in family members from those on the flight. It was hard!!

And now I have 26 years with American Airlines as a support agent for reservations and airport agents. I've gone through a couple of crashes of our own and several others from other airlines. All are sad and difficult because our business is to get people to where they are going whether its for a business trip, wedding, funeral, honeymoon, family trip, or just to get away for some personal time. And as an airline employee , we all feel a big loss when it doesn't work. Of course it's hard when it's your own airline. I cried when I found out that 2 of the planes that were involved in 9/11 were AA . But I've also felt a deep loss when any airline doesn't make it. Sometimes we are rivals, but when an aircraft doesn't make it to its intended destination, I feel we are all one!!

.

My heart is out to everyone who lost a special person on Delta Airlines 191, and to all those who helped in the rescue and recovery, and to those who helped in the support of the family members. And I guess that's a little bit me. I hope those who stayed at the Amfac Hotel and were checked in by me remember a shy awkward 22 year old who didn't know quite what to do or say to family members. I know I was quiet, but nice. I just wish I would have given out some hugs. #regrets
 
BoeingGuy
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RE: Delta 191: 30 Years Ago

Wed Aug 05, 2015 2:17 am

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 33):
Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 15):

The Craxy thing with this crash.. a light a/c was right ahead of them and passed through the same cloud formation and landed without incident.

I've flown the DL 191 incident and Pan Am in MSY scenarios in the engineering simulators numerous time and find both events fairly benign if you even remotely follow the windshear recovery procedure.

As I understand it, the pilot flying on DL 191 put the nose down and pulled the throttles back when they had the sudden performance increase at the front end of the windshear. We know now that was the absolute worst thing he possibly could have done.
 
aa87
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RE: Delta 191: 30 Years Ago

Wed Aug 05, 2015 3:50 am

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 38):
As I understand it, the pilot flying on DL 191 put the nose down and pulled the throttles back when they had the sudden performance increase at the front end of the windshear. We know now that was the absolute worst thing he possibly could have done.

Yeah, and if the Titanic crew had taken no evasive action at all, they would have crushed the bow, killed 10-50 pax, but stayed afloat and out of the history books. Transportation history is full of crews making absolutely split second decisions - we read about the wrong ones, not the right ones.

Interesting your sim experience. Was it really benign w wind shear recovery procedures ? makes it even more tragic. I thought both incidents were severe and essentially non-recoverable.
 
klwright69
Posts: 2712
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2000 4:22 am

RE: Delta 191: 30 Years Ago

Wed Aug 05, 2015 4:38 am

Quoting aloha73g (Reply 36):

Quoting klwright69 (Reply 31):
Hi LovesCoffee, I wonder who was on row 20? Talk about a miracle. That is an interesting seating chart.

One of the longer articles linked above mentioned a 12 y/o boy who wasn't wearing his seat belt and was thrown from the plane. His dad who was belted in next to him did not survive.

Ah, yes, Richard Laver boy. I mentioned him in my post. You learn something new. I thought everyone survived in the back while everyone died forward.
 
BoeingGuy
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RE: Delta 191: 30 Years Ago

Wed Aug 05, 2015 5:09 am

Quoting aa87 (Reply 39):
Interesting your sim experience. Was it really benign w wind shear recovery procedures ? makes it even more tragic. I thought both incidents were severe and essentially non-recoverable.

Not even close to being non-recoverable. The TWA at LGA is nasty. MSY either isn't modeled correctly or it really wasn't much of a windshear.

Right now the Boeing procedure calls for initiating the Windshear Recover maneuver if:

...uncontrolled changes from normal steady state flight conditions below 1000 feet AGL, in excess of any of the following:
• 15 knots indicated airspeed
• 500 FPM vertical speed
• 5 degrees pitch attitude
• 1 dot displacement from the glideslope
• unusual thrust lever position for a significant period of
time

Of course today you'd likely also get the Predictive Windshear Caution and Warning and immediately do a go-around. Then you'd get the Reactive Windshear Warning if you actually get into it.
 
Max Q
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RE: Delta 191: 30 Years Ago

Wed Aug 05, 2015 5:13 am

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 33):
The Craxy thing with this crash.. a light a/c was right ahead of them and passed through the same cloud formation and landed without incident.

Not sure about a light twin but I know a learjet was ahead of 191.


Not surprising it would get through when you consider its power to weight ratio.
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


GGg
 
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N328KF
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RE: Delta 191: 30 Years Ago

Wed Aug 05, 2015 2:04 pm

One of the prominent (I hesitate to say "important") passengers was Don Estridge, who was technical lead on the IBM PC project and was one of two people who essentially made that system what it was. There were several other of his employees (and their spouses) on board.

After his death, IBM made several questionable technical decisions that started their slow retreat from the glory days of the early 1980s. Had he survived, it might not have made much of a difference to a post-PC world, but it may have meant that IBM would have retained much more market footprint in the late 1980s and through the 1990s.

[Edited 2015-08-05 07:28:34]
“In the age of information, ignorance is a choice.”
-Donny Miller
 
LovesCoffee
Posts: 222
Joined: Thu May 31, 2012 4:07 am

RE: Delta 191: 30 Years Ago

Wed Aug 05, 2015 3:47 pm

Quoting N328KF (Reply 43):
Don Estridge

Also known as "the father of the PC".
Life is too short for cheap coffee.
 
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jsnww81
Posts: 2541
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 3:29 am

RE: Delta 191: 30 Years Ago

Thu Aug 06, 2015 1:03 am

Quoting hondah35 (Reply 32):
I was 8 years old and we were heading north on Belt Line Road in Irving heading toward Irving Mall for dinner when we saw the smoke. We were only 7-8 miles from the crash and saw the smoke but it wasn't clear that it was a crash because the thunderstorm didn't appear that big or threatening when we saw the smoke. It was only after we entered the mall and saw coverage of the crash on some of the TV screens in an electronics store that we realized what had happened.

I was too young to fully know what was going on - I don't even remember it being rainy that day. I remember the TV shows I was watching being interrupted multiple times and seeing footage of the wreckage filmed from the shoulder of the highway. I was already fascinated by aviation at that age, but I was still too small to really understand what was being discussed on TV. It was a big story in Dallas for quite awhile after the accident. I remember the Delta 727 crash at DFW, a few years later, much more vividly.

I always thought it was a nice gesture by DFW to memorialize DL191 at Founders Plaza. Very few airports have done anything similar.
 
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777Jet
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RE: Delta 191: 30 Years Ago

Thu Aug 06, 2015 1:12 am

Quoting LovesCoffee (Reply 30):
Actually, there were 8 survivors not in the tail section, 7 of which had "thermal injuries" and all has serious injuries.

That an article can't get such basic numbers correct does not surprise me  

Thanks for providing that seat map BTW!  

Unless I saw wrong, it shows 2 lavs at the very front and 5 lavs at the very back. Were pax allowed to use the lavs in a different class in those days? If not, it would have been a long walk for the people sitting up front in the first Y zone, row 10, to the lavs at the very back  

Also, I note that there are different smoking sections throughout the cabin...

Quoting Brick (Reply 34):
There was a passenger that survived Air Florida 90 that went into the Potomac River who said the same thing. His family had been begging him to quit smoking for years. Yet because he had not quit and was seated in the smoking section at the rear of the 737, he survived.

I guess that now that most if not all flights are strictly non-smoking, the decision to smoke won't save lives anymore as people won't be moving to the usually safe rear section to smoke anymore  
DC10-10/30,MD82/88/90, 717,727,732/3/4/5/7/8/9ER,742/4,752/3,763/ER,772/E/L/3/W,788/9, 306,320,321,332/3,346,359,388
 
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jsnww81
Posts: 2541
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 3:29 am

RE: Delta 191: 30 Years Ago

Thu Aug 06, 2015 1:32 am

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 46):
Also, I note that there are different smoking sections throughout the cabin...

There was a smoking section for each class of service. On widebodies, the rearmost Y cabin was typically the smoking cabin. Unfortunately for nonsmoking F passengers, usually the last few rows of the cabin were designated for smokers. The smoke didn't usually keep to those rows, alas. Still better than many European carriers, which designated one side of the aisle smoking and the other nonsmoking!

Up until smoking was banned on domestic flights in the late 1980s, it was fairly typical for smokers to be among the survivors in a crash, if the tail remained intact. Look at Eastern 66, Air Florida 90, Delta 191, Southern 242, and many others.
 
747buff
Posts: 679
Joined: Thu Jan 11, 2001 3:05 pm

RE: Delta 191: 30 Years Ago

Thu Aug 06, 2015 2:12 am

Seat maps from crashes are quite interesting yet poignant. I find myself looking at every seat wondering who sat there and what their story was.
At Eastern, we earn our wings every day!
 
CF-CPI
Posts: 1448
Joined: Sat Nov 18, 2000 12:54 am

RE: Delta 191: 30 Years Ago

Thu Aug 06, 2015 2:20 am

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 38):
As I understand it, the pilot flying on DL 191 put the nose down and pulled the throttles back when they had the sudden performance increase at the front end of the windshear. We know now that was the absolute worst thing he possibly could have done.

At the time of the crash, were there clear recommendations to apply full thrust at the onset of windshear?

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