JETnyc
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Airbus London To NY In One Hour

Tue Aug 04, 2015 2:25 am

Airbus has thoughts of building a airplane that would fly from London to NY in one hour, seeing is believing.
See the description of the aircraft. http://yhoo.it/1VXZmjF
 
rj777
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RE: Airbus London To NY In One Hour

Tue Aug 04, 2015 3:01 am

If this does get off the ground, do you think AF and BA will go for it?
 
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northwestEWR
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RE: Airbus London To NY In One Hour

Tue Aug 04, 2015 3:05 am

Is it even possible to accelerate from takeoff to Mach 4.5 and then back to landing speed without extreme G-forces in an hour? Probably even more difficult when you account for the complex SID/STAR altitude and speed restrictions in NYC and London.
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eal
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RE: Airbus London To NY In One Hour

Tue Aug 04, 2015 3:11 am

Only 20 passengers? What's the point?
 
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mayor
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RE: Airbus London To NY In One Hour

Tue Aug 04, 2015 3:13 am

Quoting eal (Reply 3):

Only 20 passengers? What's the point?

How exorbitant would the fares have to be to make it worthwhile?
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tortugamon
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RE: Airbus London To NY In One Hour

Tue Aug 04, 2015 3:21 am

Quoting mayor (Reply 4):

If it is only an hour then you could fit in 10+ flights per day. That sure would make things cheaper.

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XT6Wagon
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RE: Airbus London To NY In One Hour

Tue Aug 04, 2015 3:33 am

yah, no. It takes an hour to fly anywhere that isn't the same airport you started at...

Take off and landing burn so much time that I simply can't see doing that in an hour unless you go deeply supersonic by the end of the runway.
 
B747forever
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RE: Airbus London To NY In One Hour

Tue Aug 04, 2015 3:41 am

Only taxiing around both LHR and JFK by itself can easily take up to an hour. There is no way you can do the whole trip in an hour.
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mayor
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RE: Airbus London To NY In One Hour

Tue Aug 04, 2015 3:43 am

How many U.S. gateways would be actually usable if they could only go supersonic over the water? Not many, I would think. Kind of limits the routes you could fly and the airlines you could sell them, to.
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rotating14
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RE: Airbus London To NY In One Hour

Tue Aug 04, 2015 4:12 am

I guess this means we already know the cover story of the next Popular Science magazine issue.
 
LH707330
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RE: Airbus London To NY In One Hour

Tue Aug 04, 2015 4:14 am

Quoting northwestEWR (Reply 2):
Is it even possible to accelerate from takeoff to Mach 4.5 and then back to landing speed without extreme G-forces in an hour? Probably even more difficult when you account for the complex SID/STAR altitude and speed restrictions in NYC and London.

Mach 4.5 is ~4,500 km/h, which is 4,500,000 m/h, which is 1,250 m/s. 1g is 10 m/s^2, so with a steady 1 g acceleration you can be there in 2 minutes. Easy peasy.
 
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NWAROOSTER
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RE: Airbus London To NY In One Hour

Tue Aug 04, 2015 4:22 am

Is it really necessary or important that civilian aircraft cross the Atlantic in one hour?
I question the "need" for such an aircraft.      
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TWA772LR
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RE: Airbus London To NY In One Hour

Tue Aug 04, 2015 4:26 am

The nose in the CGI rendering looks oddly like a 737...

That design just seems way too complex. They'd probably be better off taking off the top deck of the A380 and putting a 50-80 seat ram-jet plane on the whale that detaches in-flight with ram jets, and the mother ship carries pax somewhere else, or to the same place.
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PBNZ
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RE: Airbus London To NY In One Hour

Tue Aug 04, 2015 4:27 am

Mach 4.5 = 5500 km per hour

= 1530 metres per second

Allowing half hour to accelerate then the other to decelerate (1800 s + 1800 s)

So from 0 to 1530 m/s in 1800 s is only 0.85 ms-2

So compared to g (9.8 ms-2) that's only 1/10 gravity.


Compared to acceleration at takeoff of 0 to 150 knots or 78 ms-1 in a minute or so, which would be about 1 ms-2, it's similar.

Certainly doable and shouldn't feel any worse than a really long takeoff roll.
 
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northwestEWR
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RE: Airbus London To NY In One Hour

Tue Aug 04, 2015 4:31 am

Quoting LH707330 (Reply 10):
Mach 4.5 is ~4,500 km/h, which is 4,500,000 m/h, which is 1,250 m/s. 1g is 10 m/s^2, so with a steady 1 g acceleration you can be there in 2 minutes. Easy peasy.

That doesn't sound right.... I think you're missing a zero somewhere.

My calculations show that with an initial speed of 200 knots to Mach 4.5 which is 1530 m/s would be about 22-23 minutes at 1G.
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aerolimani
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RE: Airbus London To NY In One Hour

Tue Aug 04, 2015 4:37 am

Quoting northwestEWR (Reply 2):

Is it even possible to accelerate from takeoff to Mach 4.5 and then back to landing speed without extreme G-forces in an hour?

Keep your eyes open for an inertial dampener patent to be filed soon!

Actually, the design apparently calls for passengers to be seated in some kind of hammock. Do you think they will they serve piña coladas and play ukulele music too?    http://youtu.be/0dyrbRGkVKI
 
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northwestEWR
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RE: Airbus London To NY In One Hour

Tue Aug 04, 2015 4:44 am

Quoting northwestEWR (Reply 14):
My calculations show that with an initial speed of 200 knots to Mach 4.5 which is 1530 m/s would be about 22-23 minutes at 1G.

........And in that time you'd cover about 1900 miles...... LHR-JFK is 3451 miles. It's not even possible to reach Mach 4.5 and decelerate again at 1G on a route that length.

I call BS.
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nikeson13
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RE: Airbus London To NY In One Hour

Tue Aug 04, 2015 4:44 am

This seems more like a patent for 50 years down the road, rather than something soon. Seems like something out of movies, where cities like NYC have 40 million people and thus enough uber-rich to support such a plane.
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NAV30
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RE: Airbus London To NY In One Hour

Tue Aug 04, 2015 5:21 am

Quoting nikeson13 (Reply 17):
This seems more like a patent for 50 years down the road, rather than something soon.

Actually more like fifty years BACK! The supersonic Anglo-French Concorde first flew in 1969, and some of them were still 'in service' until 2003.

Public opinion, worldwide, was dead against 'sonic booms' over populated areas. The Atlantic was one of the few places the Concorde could 'go supersonic' - it was forbidden pretty well everywhere over land.

The same thing will undoubtedly happen if this latest venture proceeds - though personally I don't see the faintest chance of that happening?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concorde
 
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Aesma
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RE: Airbus London To NY In One Hour

Tue Aug 04, 2015 5:56 am

Quoting eal (Reply 3):
Only 20 passengers? What's the point?

Well, if you can afford one, you can afford 10 or 50 ! That's what the Saudi king would need, he just spent a week vacationing on the Cote d'Azur, with a modest entourage of 1000 people...

Quoting northwestEWR (Reply 14):
That doesn't sound right.... I think you're missing a zero somewhere.

My calculations show that with an initial speed of 200 knots to Mach 4.5 which is 1530 m/s would be about 22-23 minutes at 1G.

What about 1.5G and 2G ?
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lancelot07
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RE: Airbus London To NY In One Hour

Tue Aug 04, 2015 6:09 am

Quoting northwestEWR (Reply 14):
My calculations show that with an initial speed of 200 knots to Mach 4.5 which is 1530 m/s would be about 22-23 minutes at 1G.

1G = 9.81 m/s^2. or roughly 10m/s^2
time = speed / acceleration, giving 1530/10 = 153 seconds. Units: (m/s) / (m/s^2) = s. No fault there.
Of course, 1G is quite a lot, especially slowing down.
 
gkirk
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RE: Airbus London To NY In One Hour

Tue Aug 04, 2015 6:25 am

It's a bit surpising that nobody currently flies any Airbus a/c on London-NYC...
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speedbored
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RE: Airbus London To NY In One Hour

Tue Aug 04, 2015 6:35 am

Quoting gkirk (Reply 21):
It's a bit surpising that nobody currently flies any Airbus a/c on London-NYC...

BA do.
 
bcworld
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RE: Airbus London To NY In One Hour

Tue Aug 04, 2015 6:36 am

Quoting gkirk (Reply 21):
It's a bit surpising that nobody currently flies any Airbus a/c on London-NYC...

BA LCY-JFK? (With a stop at SNN)
 
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RE: Airbus London To NY In One Hour

Tue Aug 04, 2015 6:39 am

Quoting NAV30 (Reply 18):
Actually more like fifty years BACK!

Yes, but for another reason than the one mentioned... with the advent of the internet, there's just not a "need" for supersonic pax travel.

A desire? Perhaps.

But is that desire sufficient to cover the cost? ...well, the fact that there's no serious/firm* attempt to address such a market, suggests that no, it's not.


*yes, I'm counting the Aerion in that as well. All talk, no results.
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EA CO AS
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RE: Airbus London To NY In One Hour

Tue Aug 04, 2015 6:44 am

Great; now show me a business case justifying the investment by Airbus. With rocket propulsion it won't receive anything other than experimental certification from any worldwide agency.
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RE: Airbus London To NY In One Hour

Tue Aug 04, 2015 6:45 am

Quoting northwestEWR (Reply 2):
Is it even possible to accelerate from takeoff to Mach 4.5 and then back to landing speed without extreme G-forces in an hour? Probably even more difficult when you account for the complex SID/STAR altitude and speed restrictions in NYC and London.

And once it arrives near its destination it will spend the same amount of time that the flight just took in a holding pattern  
Quoting tortugamon (Reply 5):
If it is only an hour then you could fit in 10+ flights per day. That sure would make things cheaper.

Just imagine how many flights would be affected if it went tech operating high frequencies  
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RE: Airbus London To NY In One Hour

Tue Aug 04, 2015 11:00 am

Quoting gkirk (Reply 21):
It's a bit surpising that nobody currently flies any Airbus a/c on London-NYC...

Huh ?? VS daily A346 / A333 !!
 
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RE: Airbus London To NY In One Hour

Tue Aug 04, 2015 11:05 am

Quoting TC957 (Reply 27):
Huh ?? VS daily A346 / A333 !!

And the BA A318!
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gkirk
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RE: Airbus London To NY In One Hour

Tue Aug 04, 2015 11:05 am

Quoting TC957 (Reply 27):

Forgot about them, thought they used 747s  
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nighthawk
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RE: Airbus London To NY In One Hour

Tue Aug 04, 2015 11:16 am

Quoting gkirk (Reply 21):
It's a bit surpising that nobody currently flies any Airbus a/c on London-NYC...

Virgin use A330-300s and A340-600s...

[Edited 2015-08-04 04:17:02]
 
PhilBy
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RE: Airbus London To NY In One Hour

Tue Aug 04, 2015 12:03 pm

Quoting NWAROOSTER (Reply 11):
Is it really necessary or important that civilian aircraft cross the Atlantic in one hour?
Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 25):
Great; now show me a business case justifying the investment by Airbus.

It's worth noting that the patent application is by Airbus Defense and Space, what used to be Astrium and not Airbus Civil Aircraft.
 
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RE: Airbus London To NY In One Hour

Tue Aug 04, 2015 12:26 pm

Quoting lancelot07 (Reply 20):
1G = 9.81 m/s^2. or roughly 10m/s^2
time = speed / acceleration, giving 1530/10 = 153 seconds. Units: (m/s) / (m/s^2) = s. No fault there.
Of course, 1G is quite a lot, especially slowing down.

Indeed. With respect for northwestEWR, something isn't right with whatever calculations he's done. In any case, 1G is quite a lot, but if you can accelerate to Mach 4.5 in 156 seconds (my calculation...a little less approximation, difference in result of only a small amount then you should be able to have a relatively smooth and slow deceleration. Clearly this would increase flight time, but a more "rigorous" acceleration might be more amenable to passengers (and safer!) than such a deceleration. IF any airframer were to build such an aircraft, they would have to use passenger comfort and physiology as an important metric when publishing performance projections.


As far as discussion of the concept as a whole...it's not anything even remotely possible within the next few decades. The amount of infrastructure change necessary to make operations as described within the patent application to be even feasible. Not to mention noise levels! I bet those who are protesting the third runway at LHR would be thrilled to take a third runway for conventional aircraft over having a rocket launchpad next to their homes!  duck 

[Edited 2015-08-04 05:30:40]
 
richierich
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RE: Airbus London To NY In One Hour

Tue Aug 04, 2015 1:22 pm

All a bit 'pie in the sky' talk to me. Then again, so was the idea of Concorde back in the early 1960s when the program was kicked off.

The world is a different place five decades later though. Some might say it is worse, but I tend to look at the glass being half full - for every step back we have taken in speed since the pioneering days of supersonic airliners, we have gained in economy and comfort (again, to a degree.) The cost of a round trip flight between, say, New York and London is not significantly higher in 2015 than it was in 1995, and a lot of that can be attributed to taxes.
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Burkhard
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RE: Airbus London To NY In One Hour

Tue Aug 04, 2015 1:35 pm

I would not think it is impossible.

On and very near to the Airport it is a normal Jet with two engines, then the rocket brings it up over water to the altitude where it can go very fast.

Biggest environmental issue I have is that water, once brought into that hight, never comes back, so a few of such aircraft could have a bigger greenhouse effect than all the thousands of low flying ones.
 
JAAlbert
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RE: Airbus London To NY In One Hour

Tue Aug 04, 2015 2:30 pm

We have the jumbo, the whale, and now courtesy of that CGI rendering, we have ... the turtle!

The plane, with three different engines, sounds like a maintenance nightmare. How much would such a thing cost to manufacture in comparison to currently available aircraft?
 
sstsomeday
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RE: Airbus London To NY In One Hour

Tue Aug 04, 2015 2:59 pm

The design seems pretty rudimentary to me - and so general in concept that I'm surprised they are able to patent it.

At this point I think Airbus is just covering their bases in terms of patent law. It's proven very difficult to know what can evolve technologically in 10, 15 or 20 years. I would think Airbus might put only a small amount of resources into such a project at this time, but should such a project someday find it's way to the fore due to technological advances and demand for this kind of craft, Airbus wants to be in the game.
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northwestEWR
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RE: Airbus London To NY In One Hour

Tue Aug 04, 2015 3:23 pm

Quoting jayfred (Reply 32):
Indeed. With respect for northwestEWR, something isn't right with whatever calculations he's done. In any case, 1G is quite a lot, but if you can accelerate to Mach 4.5 in 156 seconds (my calculation...a little less approximation, difference in result of only a small amount then you should be able to have a relatively smooth and slow deceleration. Clearly this would increase flight time, but a more "rigorous" acceleration might be more amenable to passengers (and safer!) than such a deceleration. IF any airframer were to build such an aircraft, they would have to use passenger comfort and physiology as an important metric when publishing performance projections.

I used an online Physics calculator. Your calculations make more sense now that I'm doing the paper math. I suppose that also means distance to accelerate doesn't become an issue.

Still absolutely ridiculously impractical but physically possible I suppose.
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bmacleod
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RE: Airbus London To NY In One Hour

Tue Aug 04, 2015 3:44 pm

I'll just limit my    to 2 questions....

1. Pie-in-sky or does this crazy idea really have a chance?

2. Likely EIS between 2025-2030 or later?
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RE: Airbus London To NY In One Hour

Tue Aug 04, 2015 3:48 pm

Doesn't sound much faster than the SR-71 that flew Edwards to Andrew AFB in one hour back in the 1980's. That's about 2500 miles roughly. I don't think G forces and rapid acceleration and deceleration so would make this impossible.
 
SANChaser
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RE: Airbus London To NY In One Hour

Tue Aug 04, 2015 4:09 pm

It seems that the concept is not unlike the Scaled Composites SpaceShip One/Two concept. The rotating tail at high speed to provide stability is similar to the "feathering" concept. I think the rendering is far from an actual product would look like. I have doubts about the blunt nose/cockpit (regular airliner style) would be sufficient for a Mach 4.5+ flight regime. I also liked the concept around possible "dissipation" of the sonic boom by going nearly vertical.


Whether this has a sound business case or not, you have to admit that the concept of flying across major hubs in a couple of hours is attractive to someone for the "right" price. Obviously jumping on your skype call is faster for the rest of us  
 
delta88
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RE: Airbus London To NY In One Hour

Tue Aug 04, 2015 4:45 pm

While im all for getting there as quickly as possible, is it really nessecary to fly that far in such a short amount of time? It certainly wouldnt be out of the realm that in 20-40 years Supersonic Air Travel could return( though it would have to be bigger, much more fuel efficent, and safer), do you really wanna go that fast that quick? Takes the fun out of flying!
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RE: Airbus London To NY In One Hour

Tue Aug 04, 2015 5:14 pm

Quoting eal (Reply 3):
Only 20 passengers? What's the point?

This is my thought.

Quoting mayor (Reply 4):

How exorbitant would the fares have to be to make it worthwhile?

This was my second thought.

Quoting B747forever (Reply 7):

Only taxiing around both LHR and JFK by itself can easily take up to an hour. There is no way you can do the whole trip in an hour.

This was my third thought, having flown from LHR to JFK last week I know that there you have to go alot faster once in the air in order to achieve a one hour flight between JFK and LHR.

Quoting northwestEWR (Reply 14):
That doesn't sound right.... I think you're missing a zero somewhere.

My calculations show that with an initial speed of 200 knots to Mach 4.5 which is 1530 m/s would be about 22-23 minutes at 1G.

This seems more plausible. I think his initial calculations would make the experience excruciatingly painful. The human body could not withstand those G forces he was proposing.
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lancelot07
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RE: Airbus London To NY In One Hour

Tue Aug 04, 2015 5:27 pm

Quoting pwm2txlhopper (Reply 39):
Doesn't sound much faster than the SR-71 that flew Edwards to Andrew AFB in one hour back in the 1980's. That's about 2500 miles roughly. I don't think G forces and rapid acceleration and deceleration so would make this impossible.

The SR-71 took a bit less than 2 hours from around New York to London for the air show in Farnborough back in the 70-ies.
But civil passengers are not an elite of Air Force pilots or trained Astronauts. The people who can afford this trip will mostly be older, not so fit. Comfort will be all-important.
 
Prost
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RE: Airbus London To NY In One Hour

Tue Aug 04, 2015 5:33 pm

When you have certain Investment Bankers who can make (I can't say earn) $2.8 Billion http://www.forbes.com/2009/04/08/wal...business-wall-street-earnings.html
In a year, a one hour flight makes a lot of sense. This LHR-JFK flight isn't for the likes of any of us on the site, it's for this rarefied slice of society where time is literally money.
 
LH707330
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RE: Airbus London To NY In One Hour

Tue Aug 04, 2015 5:42 pm

Quoting northwestEWR (Reply 14):
Quoting LH707330 (Reply 10):
Mach 4.5 is ~4,500 km/h, which is 4,500,000 m/h, which is 1,250 m/s. 1g is 10 m/s^2, so with a steady 1 g acceleration you can be there in 2 minutes. Easy peasy.

That doesn't sound right.... I think you're missing a zero somewhere.

My calculations show that with an initial speed of 200 knots to Mach 4.5 which is 1530 m/s would be about 22-23 minutes at 1G.

Are you sure you're not confusing m/sec^2 and G?

Quoting lancelot07 (Reply 20):

1G = 9.81 m/s^2. or roughly 10m/s^2
time = speed / acceleration, giving 1530/10 = 153 seconds. Units: (m/s) / (m/s^2) = s. No fault there.
Of course, 1G is quite a lot, especially slowing down.

Same ballpark I ended up in, I lazily assumed Mach 1=1,000 km/h without looking it up, so my number was 125 seconds.

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 26):
And once it arrives near its destination it will spend the same amount of time that the flight just took in a holding pattern

Indeed, they'd have to find a better way to land.

Quoting Burkhard (Reply 34):
Biggest environmental issue I have is that water, once brought into that hight, never comes back, so a few of such aircraft could have a bigger greenhouse effect than all the thousands of low flying ones.

Really? Is there really not much atmospheric circulation up there?

Quoting JAAlbert (Reply 35):
The plane, with three different engines, sounds like a maintenance nightmare. How much would such a thing cost to manufacture in comparison to currently available aircraft?

Too much, which is why we don't have it yet.

Quoting northwestEWR (Reply 37):
I used an online Physics calculator. Your calculations make more sense now that I'm doing the paper math. I suppose that also means distance to accelerate doesn't become an issue.

What acceleration units did it use? I think you may have confused them somewhere. One of my old teachers always taught us to round numbers and do the calculation with the unit conversions and counting the zeros before using calculators.

Somehow the Blackbird crews were able to do get to 3.5 and fly around without any issues, so 4.5 isn't much more of an issue.
 
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RE: Airbus London To NY In One Hour

Tue Aug 04, 2015 5:52 pm

Quoting eal (Reply 3):
Only 20 passengers? What's the point?

Proof of concept and technology. We didn't jump to the Boeing 747 immediately. The Boeing 247 came earlier. We tend to make technology progress incrementally. The bigger question is who foots the development costs for such a giant leap in technology with what would be initially very limited demand.

Quoting NWAROOSTER (Reply 11):
I question the "need" for such an aircraft.

Picture it: The world in the 1930s. "I can get to Europe in several days on a boat, and even quicker by airship. Why would I need to get there any quicker?"

Because it's what comes next.
 
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RE: Airbus London To NY In One Hour

Tue Aug 04, 2015 6:01 pm

I'm sure it's nore a business jet than a regulare passneger Aircraft, considering the low numbers of passengers it could take ...
 
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RE: Airbus London To NY In One Hour

Tue Aug 04, 2015 6:12 pm

IIRC former POTUS Ronald Reagan once proposed a hypersonic space plane (HSP) that could fly IAD-NRT in three hours. That was sometime between 1981 and 1988. Today there is still no hypersonic space plane. However I'm sure Boeing and Lockheed Martin have a number of patents from the HSP project. The Airbus proposal is nothing more than another HSP project which earned Airbus nothing more than a patent of their own.
 
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RE: Airbus London To NY In One Hour

Tue Aug 04, 2015 6:21 pm

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 26):
Just imagine how many flights would be affected if it went tech operating high frequencies
[quote=bmacleod,reply=38]2. Likely EIS between 2025-2030 or later?

It will likely never EIS. The OEMs do these filings all of the time. Boeing launched a derivative of an existing aircraft in 2013 that won't EIS until 2020. 7 years. Imagine a new airplane with three different types of engines one of which (scramjet) the most successful version of the type has failed 2 out of the 4 times it has been flown in the last 5 years.

A lot more needs to be done to figure out a solution just to make these things into weapons, let alone military aircraft, let alone civilian aircraft.

A 2030 EIS is beyond the realm of possibility in my opinion.

tortugamon

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