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KarelXWB
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MH370 Flap Found In La Réunion - Part 4

Wed Aug 05, 2015 9:05 am

As the prior thread has gotten long a new thread is being created to continue the conversation.

The previous thread can be found here:
Aircraft Flap Found In La Réunion (RUN) Part 3 (by KaiGywer Jul 30 2015 in Civil Aviation)
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Toni_
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MH370 Flap Found In La Réunion - Part 4

Wed Aug 05, 2015 12:18 pm

Quoting Pihero (Reply 246):
Been discussed before : around the search area, the conditions of the day of the accident were rather mild : 1 m swell, 5 to 10 kt winds ( mainly crosswind ).
Nothing as dramatic as you think and write.


Sorry I missed that discussion. I'm fully aware that the "roaring forties" sometimes don't roar at all. That is rather mild indeed.
 
galleypower
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MH370 Flap Found In La Réunion - Part 4

Wed Aug 05, 2015 1:20 pm

French authorities and Boeing have “officially identified” the flaperon as being part of a 777. But what aircraft it comes from. See www.flightglobal.com
 
lancelot07
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MH370 Flap Found In La Réunion - Part 4

Wed Aug 05, 2015 3:27 pm

Quoting galleypower (Reply 2):
See www.flightglobal.com

Registered users only  

Do planes loose flaperons in flight? Does such a loss go unnoticed ? If No, then whrer could it come from, except MH370 ?
 
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Aaron747
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MH370 Flap Found In La Réunion - Part 4

Wed Aug 05, 2015 3:38 pm

Quoting lancelot07 (Reply 3):
Do planes loose flaperons in flight? Does such a loss go unnoticed ? If No, then whrer could it come from, except MH370 ?

No, major control surfaces do not simply come off in flight. If one did, some ridiculous amount of incompetence or negligence would be required. And it would not go unnoticed or unreported - no way.
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MH370 Flap Found In La Réunion - Part 4

Wed Aug 05, 2015 4:16 pm

Press conference scheduled for 2PM ET.
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GrahamHill
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MH370 Flap Found In La Réunion - Part 4

Wed Aug 05, 2015 4:18 pm

The prosecutor will hold a press conference about the flaperon investigation at 8 pm Paris time : http://www.lefigaro.fr/flash-actu/20...-procureur-s-exprimera-ce-soir.php (in French)

Edit: Joshu beat me to it.

[Edited 2015-08-05 09:19:45]
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MH370 Flap Found In La Réunion - Part 4

Wed Aug 05, 2015 5:09 pm

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 4):
No, major control surfaces do not simply come off in flight. If one did, some ridiculous amount of incompetence or negligence would be required. And it would not go unnoticed or unreported - no way.

I could imagine that there are airlines out there that wouldn't report it. I could see some airline wanting to avoid bad press over the the loss of a control surface and just claiming it was damaged when ordering a new one.

Quoting GrahamHill (Reply 6):
The prosecutor will hold a press conference

Why would a French prosecutor be holding a press conference? Is there some sort of criminal investigation going on? I can understand why the French are investigating, because the part was found in French territory.
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32andBelow
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MH370 Flap Found In La Réunion - Part 4

Wed Aug 05, 2015 5:17 pm

Quoting falstaff (Reply 7):
I could imagine that there are airlines out there that wouldn't report it. I could see some airline wanting to avoid bad press over the the loss of a control surface and just claiming it was damaged when ordering a new one.

This stuff doesn't happen in aviation. If your airplane falls apart, it gets reported, or you get shut down. There are 777s we are talking about not C208s
 
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MH370 Flap Found In La Réunion - Part 4

Wed Aug 05, 2015 5:50 pm

Malaysian PM confirms it was from MH flight 370


http://i955.photobucket.com/albums/ae40/PhilipOA260/532BE95A-22D6-4655-A322-879976AA48B8_zpsxufyg7l8.png

[Edited 2015-08-05 10:53:54]
 
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MH370 Flap Found In La Réunion - Part 4

Wed Aug 05, 2015 5:51 pm

Quoting falstaff (Reply 7):
Why would a French prosecutor be holding a press conference? Is there some sort of criminal investigation going on? I can understand why the French are investigating, because the part was found in French territory.

The Napoleonic Code is not the same as British Common Law. French law is different in many respects, and one of them is that there is no technical concept of accidental death. All deaths are investigated criminally. There is a very concerted effort to charge someone criminally as well.

This reality was on display after Concorde crashed. They criminally charged a Continental mechanic who fabricated a part out of a stronger metal than normally used that happened to fall off and then happened to get run over by Concorde due to poor runway inspection and, which punctured the badly designed tires which lead to a catastrophic explosion of a poorly protected fuel tank. In the USA or England, it would have at most been a civil matter...
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MH370 Flap Found In La Réunion - Part 4

Wed Aug 05, 2015 5:52 pm

Quoting OA260 (Reply 9):
Malaysian PM confirms it was from MH flight 370

Good news. Hope this helps in any what way possible to relocate the most of the wreckage of the aircraft.
 
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MH370 Flap Found In La Réunion - Part 4

Wed Aug 05, 2015 5:53 pm

There has been something nagging me since this started. It has been stated that it never goes unreported that a 777 lost it's inboard control surface...does that mean it was unreported or it just didn't get noticed on here? Is it still possible we just missed it and it did in fact come off another 777 at some point in the last few months/years?
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flightsimer
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MH370 Flap Found In La Réunion - Part 4

Wed Aug 05, 2015 5:54 pm

As it has been just now confirmed that this is one of the flapperons from MH370, I think a threads title change is due.

Glad to finally see some bit of closure to this mystery.
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AirGAbon
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MH370 Flap Found In La Réunion - Part 4

Wed Aug 05, 2015 6:02 pm

Quoting falstaff (Reply 7):
Why would a French prosecutor be holding a press conference? Is there some sort of criminal investigation going on? I can understand why the French are investigating, because the part was found in French territory.

Also because 4 of the passengers onboard were French, so a criminal investigation is also opened in France for hijacking and terrorism.
 
kurtjeter
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MH370 Flap Found In La Réunion - Part 4

Wed Aug 05, 2015 6:04 pm

Quoting NBGSkyGod (Reply 12):
Is it still possible we just missed it and it did in fact come off another 777 at some point in the last few months/years?

It's been confirmed -- BBC among others--it's from MH 370.
 
chuchoteur
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MH370 Flap Found In La Réunion - Part 4

Wed Aug 05, 2015 6:05 pm

it will be interesting to see how far the analysis can go with this one part...
 
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Wed Aug 05, 2015 6:05 pm

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MH370 Flap Found In La Réunion - Part 4

Wed Aug 05, 2015 6:06 pm

Quoting OA260 (Reply 9):
Malaysian PM confirms it was from MH flight 370

Couldn't he wait that French officials hold their press conference?

Anyway, it's positivie news. This might be the beginning of solving the mystery around this crash.

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 10):
The Napoleonic Code is not the same as British Common Law. French law is different in many respects, and one of them is that there is no technical concept of accidental death. All deaths are investigated criminally.

Indeed, that's how we proceed.
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avi8
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MH370 Flap Found In La Réunion - Part 4

Wed Aug 05, 2015 6:06 pm

FOX News is transmitting it live right now, it is confirmed that it belonged to the plane.
avi8

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OMP777X
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MH370 Flap Found In La Réunion - Part 4

Wed Aug 05, 2015 6:09 pm

Quoting flightsimer (Reply 13):
As it has been just now confirmed that this is one of the flapperons from MH370, I think a threads title change is due.

Glad to finally see some bit of closure to this mystery.

Maybe in addition to all of that, some of the side discussions about whether 777 flaperons routinely detach during flight or get improperly disposed of can be put to rest as well. We all basically knew when this thread was first started last week that this flaperon was from 9M-MRO, and it seems to me that portion of this discussion should now be brought to an end at this point.

May this confirmation somehow ease a portion of the pain and uncertainty that the families of those who were lost have had to endure thus far.

Best,

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ap305
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MH370 Flap Found In La Réunion - Part 4

Wed Aug 05, 2015 6:09 pm

The Inmarsat people must be relieved after all flack they took for their calculations.....

[Edited 2015-08-05 11:11:20]
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MH370 Flap Found In La Réunion - Part 4

Wed Aug 05, 2015 6:11 pm

Great but still sad news at the same time.


I really hope they can find MH370 soon. This is big news for the search.
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MH370 Flap Found In La Réunion - Part 4

Wed Aug 05, 2015 6:14 pm

Quoting OA260 (Reply 9):

Great news but as also mentioned sad news at the same time 

Hope this narrows down the search area.

EK413
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MH370 Flap Found In La Réunion - Part 4

Wed Aug 05, 2015 6:23 pm

Quoting AirGabon (Reply 15):
Also because 4 of the passengers onboard were French, so a criminal investigation is also opened in France for hijacking and terrorism.

I would think that could be the only reason. If there were no French citizens involved I wouldn't think they would have the legal right to prosecute for a crime that did not occur in French territory or happen to French property.

I would think other nations would have to prosecute in order to seek justice for their citizens.
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trintocan
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MH370 Flap Found In La Réunion - Part 4

Wed Aug 05, 2015 6:24 pm

Yes it has been reported on the BBC as well, the Malaysian Prime Minister has confirmed that the debris is from MH370. All at once it brings a partial sense of closure for those affected, whether directly, indirectly or merely following the saga of this flight. All the same the mystery behind the flight deepens. One thing is for sure - it went down in the Indian Ocean.

Quoting NBGSkyGod (Reply 12):
There has been something nagging me since this started. It has been stated that it never goes unreported that a 777 lost it's inboard control surface...does that mean it was unreported or it just didn't get noticed on here? Is it still possible we just missed it and it did in fact come off another 777 at some point in the last few months/years?

Modern aircraft simply do not lose control surfaces - or any components for that matter - spontaneously inflight. I once read that the force needed to break a 777 wing - which would almost certainly have to occur to allow a flaperon to fall off - is so high that an explosion would occur as it did so.

God speed to all concerned.

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MH370 Flap Found In La Réunion - Part 4

Wed Aug 05, 2015 6:31 pm

The French public prosecutor has just held a press conference as well in which they confirmed that, based on analysis by experts, including experts from Boeing, the debris is "almost certainly" from MH370. This is based on two main reasons:
1) Boeing confirming that the part found is indeed a flaperon from a Boeing 777 airplane (based on dimensions, material, etc.)
2) Boeing and MH confirming that markings found on the flaperon correspond to technical maintenance documents specific to MH.

It should be noted that this is just based on a preliminary analysis and further tests and analyses are still to be carried out.

[Edited 2015-08-05 11:32:30]
42
 
B8887
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MH370 Flap Found In La Réunion - Part 4

Wed Aug 05, 2015 6:48 pm

I second the comments upthread. Great news and sad news at the same time. Also for the search effort in general, I hope this will bring some motivation.

Regards.

B8887
 
manny
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MH370 Flap Found In La Réunion - Part 4

Wed Aug 05, 2015 6:51 pm

I think its good that the families of the victims finally have closure.
 
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MH370 Flap Found In La Réunion - Part 4

Wed Aug 05, 2015 6:53 pm

Quoting manny (Reply 29):

I think the 'closure' would come when they finally find the aircraft itself.
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aaexecplat
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MH370 Flap Found In La Réunion - Part 4

Wed Aug 05, 2015 7:02 pm

Quoting anfromme (Reply 27):
2) Boeing and MH confirming that markings found on the flaperon correspond to technical maintenance documents specific to MH.

I think this is the clinching item.
 
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MH370 Flap Found In La Réunion - Part 4

Wed Aug 05, 2015 7:02 pm

Quoting Miami (Reply 23):

Great but still sad news at the same time.

I really hope they can find MH370 soon. This is big news for the search.

It is sad news for the relatives who might have had hopes. It is good news that a first trace of MH370 has been found.

But so far it is only confirming that the search is in the right ocean. I hope confirmation of the general region of the search will follow, but i don't think it will help narrowing down the current primary search zone, or give a new, smaller search zone.
 
OMP777X
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MH370 Flap Found In La Réunion - Part 4

Wed Aug 05, 2015 7:02 pm

Quoting Miami (Reply 30):

Quoting manny (Reply 29):

I think the 'closure' would come when they finally find the aircraft itself.

I would hope so, but it may not come even then. There still may be many questions left unanswered, especially if the black boxes aren't recovered or are destroyed. I truly hope for the sake of the families involved and the aviation industry as a whole that the answers do come, and that they do sooner than later.
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MH370 Flap Found In La Réunion - Part 4

Wed Aug 05, 2015 7:06 pm

Quoting anfromme (Reply 27):
2) Boeing and MH confirming that markings found on the flaperon correspond to technical maintenance documents specific to MH.

Thats slightly strange, what 'markings' could that possibly be? Apart from a specific serial number tieing the part to MH370 which was not mentioned in the Press announcement.

I also find it a bit odd that the Malaysians have 'conclusively confirmed' that the Flaperon is from MH370, but the French have said that it is 'almost certainly' from MH370. There is a big difference in word meaning there.

[Edited 2015-08-05 12:20:16]
 
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MH370 Flap Found In La Réunion - Part 4

Wed Aug 05, 2015 7:06 pm

Quoting anfromme (Reply 27):
It should be noted that this is just based on a preliminary analysis and further tests and analyses are still to be carried out.

This here gets me thinking more than anything. Though logic would clearly suggest based on the two reasons listed that it would be from MH370, if they themselves say they need further analysis to make certain it was from that specific aircraft, I don't feel comfortable calling it confirmed just yet. Call it treading lightly from the way things had been handled so far with releasing information quickly to satisfy world media/governments/customers/etc., and the Malaysian press conference deliberately ahead of the scheduled French presser almost seemingly to be first to report and in their words confirm it outright, while the French say "almost certainly" though would not say definitively so.

I'll call it highly likely as most would, but I will still wait for confirmation from analysis to leave no doubt.

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holzmann
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MH370 Flap Found In La Réunion - Part 4

Wed Aug 05, 2015 7:11 pm

Sorry to be THAT guy but say the plane was flown to Baikonur as a few (tin foil hats) propose. Couldn't I simply take off a part here or there, say a flaperon, and fly it to the Indian Ocean, drop it in the water and hope it washes up somewhere some 18 months later?
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spacecadet
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MH370 Flap Found In La Réunion - Part 4

Wed Aug 05, 2015 7:11 pm

Quoting Pohakuloa (Reply 35):
I'll call it highly likely as most would, but I will still wait for confirmation from analysis to leave no doubt.

"Today, 515 days since the plane disappeared, it is with a heavy heart that I must tell you that an international team of experts have conclusively confirmed that the aircraft debris found on Reunion Island is indeed from MH370," Prime Minister Najib Razak said in an early morning televised statement.
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Kaiarahi
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MH370 Flap Found In La Réunion - Part 4

Wed Aug 05, 2015 7:17 pm

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 10):
French law is different in many respects, and one of them is that there is no technical concept of accidental death. All deaths are investigated criminally. There is a very concerted effort to charge someone criminally as well.

Ignorant rubbish.

Quoting falstaff (Reply 7):
Why would a French prosecutor be holding a press conference? Is there some sort of criminal investigation going on? I can understand why the French are investigating, because the part was found in French territory.

The translation of "procureur" as "prosecutor" is very misleading. Under French law, a "procureur" is a magistrate who initiates and directs preliminary investigations and if necessary seeks the assignment of a "juge d'instruction" to lead a formal judicial investigation.
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lancelot07
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MH370 Flap Found In La Réunion - Part 4

Wed Aug 05, 2015 7:22 pm

Quoting Pohakuloa (Reply 35):
if they themselves say they need further analysis to make certain it was from that specific aircraft, I don't feel comfortable calling it confirmed just yet.

The french prosecutor was a bit reserved. But they certainly will need further analysis to get out all conceivable information from that flaperon. It is the first clue in over a year.
 
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falstaff
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MH370 Flap Found In La Réunion - Part 4

Wed Aug 05, 2015 7:24 pm

Quoting holzmann (Reply 36):
Sorry to be THAT guy but say the plane was flown to Baikonur as a few (tin foil hats) propose. Couldn't I simply take off a part here or there, say a flaperon, and fly it to the Indian Ocean, drop it in the water and hope it washes up somewhere some 18 months later?

Would be the point of taking an aircraft somewhere and not using it for something? Sure you could pull off some parts and dump them in the water, but why would you use control surfaces, which you would need to fly the plane at some later date? If you were going to pull off some parts to make it look like it crashed common sense would tell you that you would remove some stuff you don't need to control the aircraft.

If somebody did remove a control surface that they would need later on they would have to replace it. Where would they get it from? I doubt you could just call up Boeing or a supplier of used 777 parts and just ask for whatever part you need and have them ship it to you no questions asked. Plus that wouldn't be a very stealthy operation if they had airplane parts delivered there.

The tinfoil hat stuff never made sense to me mostly because if you had the aircraft somewhere and planned on flying it you would need fuel. Somebody has to sell the fuel and transport it, which would give away your location. Even if you stole the fuel somebody would report fuel and trucks missing.
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Ammad
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MH370 Flap Found In La Réunion - Part 4

Wed Aug 05, 2015 7:29 pm

It's good news and sad news at same time. Hope black box will soon be retrieve and the guy should be awarded for spotting debris.
 
lhrnue
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MH370 Flap Found In La Réunion - Part 4

Wed Aug 05, 2015 7:30 pm

Quoting holzmann (Reply 36):
and fly it to the Indian Ocean, drop it in the water and hope it washes up somewhere some 18 months later?

Sure, of course, most certain, 100% possible, likely, no way it could not the be case.
 
lpdal
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MH370 Flap Found In La Réunion - Part 4

Wed Aug 05, 2015 7:43 pm

Current cause both sand and objects in the ocean to move. Is it possible that the search has been hindered by the wreckage being buried under loose sand (some oceans have looser sand than others)?

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777X
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MH370 Flap Found In La Réunion - Part 4

Wed Aug 05, 2015 8:08 pm

I don't know if this has been asked before, but is there any way to determine which wing the flaperon is from?

Didn't 9M-MRO undergo repairs to its right wing after a collision in 2012? Could this have anything to do with that?
 
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anfromme
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MH370 Flap Found In La Réunion - Part 4

Wed Aug 05, 2015 8:13 pm

Quoting SuperSix2 (Reply 34):
'conclusively confirmed' that the Flaperon is from MH370, but the French have said that it is 'almost certainly' from MH370

That may have been lost in translation on both sides. In German, I'd use the phrase "mit an Sicherheit grenzender Wahrscheinlichkeit", which is what you're talking about here. Technically, it is theoretically possible that this is some stray flaperon from a MH 777 that was not MH370. No such stray flaperon actually exists. So everybody's completely aware that this a completely hypothetical scenario. Still, unless you find a serial number specifically tying the flaperon to MRO, you have to take that scenario, unlikely as it may be, into account if you want to be technical about probabilities.

Quoting Pohakuloa (Reply 35):

Quoting anfromme (Reply 27):
"It should be noted that this is just based on a preliminary analysis and further tests and analyses are still to be carried out."

This here gets me thinking more than anything. Though logic would clearly suggest based on the two reasons listed that it would be from MH370, if they themselves say they need further analysis to make certain it was from that specific aircraft,

That's not really what they said.
They just said that after this first analysis, they can confirm with as much near-certainty as you're likely to get that this part is from MH370. They emphasised a few times how certain they are, although they apparently did not (so far) find any serial number linking the part to MRO specifically. But they confirmed the part is a 777 flaperon from a MH plane. Not too many of those missing, but strictly speaking they haven't 100% confirmed the part is from MRO, they're just very, very, very confident. That's paraphrasing engineers for you - engineers effectively won't tell you "this is 100% what this is" unless they've actually witnessed the whole chain of events themselves  

Anyway - the additional analyses they're going to run may provide further proof, but I'm not sure the main object of the next round of tests is to find such further proof. My French is a bit rusty, so some nuances may have slipped by me.


Quoting holzmann (Reply 36):
Couldn't I simply take off a part here or there, say a flaperon, and fly it to the Indian Ocean, drop it in the water and hope it washes up somewhere some 18 months later?

Why would you even bother to do that? Why even give anybody any clue? Or if you give them a clue, why even bother dropping a bunch of parts in the Indian Ocean at great expense, in the hope that maybe one or two of them wash up somewhere? Why even go to these great lengths to begin with? Because you want a 12 year-old 777-200 you then can't fly anywhere due to lack of fuel and some awkward questions you're facing when you're trying to register the thing and land it anywhere? It'd be a lot cheaper to just buy a 777-200 (that you can actually use then, too) than it would be to pull off any of these improbable conspiracy plots. And that's before you begin thinking about what to do with everybody on board, silencing those on the ground that would have to be in on the plot, etc.

[Edited 2015-08-05 13:18:45]
42
 
WingedMigrator
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MH370 Flap Found In La Réunion - Part 4

Wed Aug 05, 2015 8:14 pm

Quoting 777X (Reply 44):
I don't know if this has been asked before, but is there any way to determine which wing the flaperon is from?

It is the right wing flaperon.
 
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MH370 Flap Found In La Réunion - Part 4

Wed Aug 05, 2015 8:53 pm

Quoting lancelot07 (Reply 3):
Quoting galleypower (Reply 2):
See www.flightglobal.com

Registered users only

Registration is free and takes less than a minute to complete.
 
ikramerica
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MH370 Flap Found In La Réunion - Part 4

Wed Aug 05, 2015 8:58 pm

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 37):
Ignorant rubbish.

Uncalled for. It's a simplification but also is a simple explanation of the difference. Accidents are "crimes" and a guilty party is sought. Someone is eventually charged, but it doesn't mean they are found guilty.

It's not a judgment of the system's merit. Under that system we in the west might think that some people are charged criminally when it's "unfair" to do so, but in our system many people are not charged criminally when it would seem to any lay person that they should be.

Two sides of a coin.
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LovesCoffee
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MH370 Flap Found In La Réunion - Part 4

Wed Aug 05, 2015 9:40 pm

Quoting holzmann (Reply 35):
Sorry to be THAT guy but say the plane was flown to Baikonur as a few (tin foil hats) propose. Couldn't I simply take off a part here or there, say a flaperon, and fly it to the Indian Ocean, drop it in the water and hope it washes up somewhere some 18 months later?

Congratulations! You have posted the very first convoluted, nonsensical conspiracy theory since the flaperon was confirmed top be from MH370!   
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RedChili
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MH370 Flap Found In La Réunion - Part 4

Wed Aug 05, 2015 9:58 pm

Quoting holzmann (Reply 35):
Sorry to be THAT guy but say the plane was flown to Baikonur as a few (tin foil hats) propose. Couldn't I simply take off a part here or there, say a flaperon, and fly it to the Indian Ocean, drop it in the water and hope it washes up somewhere some 18 months later?

I have a really hard time understanding why someone would try to hide the plane in the first place, but risk being discovered by planting evidence in the ocean. The very act of dropping the flaperon from a plane or ship would mean that a lot of people would have to be in on it, and other witnesses would perhaps see what is going on.

Moreover, the Indian Ocean is so big that if you drop it there because you really want the flaperon to be found in the Indian Ocean, there is a real chance that it will never be found at all.
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