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b747400erf
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RE: LY Orders 15 Dreamliners

Thu Aug 06, 2015 12:46 pm

will the political drama about the exim bank change this order if the American politicians do not re-fund it?

I can see them sending their first 787's to LAX and an Asian route like HKG or BKK
 
ytz
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RE: LY Orders 15 Dreamliners

Thu Aug 06, 2015 3:51 pm

Quoting Tdan (Reply 2):
I assume this will be a mix of 788/789s to replace the existing longhaul fleet and allow for some growth with the options?

I would think 789/78J would be the better mix. I would think they would want to grow beyond the current 763 capacity. And possibly move up from the 77E on some routes as well. And if they're downgrading from the 744, then the 78J makes sense.

Quoting Tdan (Reply 16):
Except you can get 788 delivery slots relatively soon and LY doesnt need the capacity of a -10 outside of JFK.

I can think of a few growth markets, where they could use the capacity of the 78J. There's even a few places in Europe where they could stand to consolidate a few flights, grow a bit or smooth out demand. For example, I'm sure they can use the slight boost from 77E to 78J in LHR. Or use a 78J to even out loads to BCN....

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 27):
betting on 787-9 for the longer flights to LAX and some 787-10 for greater passenger needs to JFK and Newark.

Exactly. And let's not forget that LY has some unique restrictions which add to flight time. The 789 maybe needed to access business destinations in Asia.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 17):
If their first frames are coming in 2017, I imagine those would have to be leased frames, so that could include 787-8s (which would most likely be used as a 767 replacement) depending on lessor inventory.

I agree that they're probably 788s if leasing. I would still think it would be great for them to hold out or sign short term leases to eventually allow them to go 789/78J completely.

It will be interesting to see what they do. Perhaps we'll even see a 788/78J split!
 
trex8
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RE: LY Orders 15 Dreamliners

Thu Aug 06, 2015 4:17 pm

Dont LY planes have a variety of defensive systems against Manpads etc. Is that an issue on the 787 to make cutouts in the fuselage to mount these? I remember a discussion here years ago on the suitability of the 787 to be converted for military use especially elint/sigint etc as other "metal" airliners have been in the past. Some people were saying making cutouts in the barrel CFRP fuselage to mount the equipment is a big deal compared to a metal structure and incorporating them at the time of the barrel construction was the only way to go but probably uneconomic.
 
amirs
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RE: LY Orders 15 Dreamliners

Thu Aug 06, 2015 4:34 pm

They added some nice renderings to their facebook page. I wonder if those are -8, -9 and -10 in the pics.


 
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Miami
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RE: LY Orders 15 Dreamliners

Thu Aug 06, 2015 4:37 pm

Quoting amirs (Reply 53):
I wonder if those are -8, -9 and -10 in the pics.

The 2nd pic does look like the 1st is -8, 2nd -9 and the 3rd -10.
Aviation is proof that given, the will, we have the capacity to achieve the impossible. - Eddie Rickenbacker
 
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Miami
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RE: LY Orders 15 Dreamliners

Thu Aug 06, 2015 4:41 pm

Quoting amirs (Reply 53):
their facebook page.

They said this in the caption:

Quote:
We are pleased to announce that the Board of Directors today approved the to negotiation with Boeing ahead of the biggest procurement program in the history of EL AL. The purchase and lease of 15 wide-body aircraft the 787-8 and 787-9.

This move is expected to be a leap forward with our customers flying experience and technological innovation and are designed for maximum comfort to fly to destinations in the medium and long term (New York , Boston , Toronto , Bangkok , Beijing , Mumbai , South Africa , etc.) , the planes are new and most advanced in the world.
Aviation is proof that given, the will, we have the capacity to achieve the impossible. - Eddie Rickenbacker
 
amirs
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RE: LY Orders 15 Dreamliners

Thu Aug 06, 2015 4:59 pm

My points was that their were -10 in the pic.
Was that intended or just graphics designers playing around?
 
SXDFC
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RE: LY Orders 15 Dreamliners

Thu Aug 06, 2015 5:00 pm

While the 787 looks good in the LY livery, couldn't help but think of this as a great opportunity to introduce something fresh and new, or a "tweak" of the current livery.

Lastly, their FB page only mentions the -8 and -9, yet one of the pictures seems to show a -10 or maybe that's an illusion?
 
Prost
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RE: LY Orders 15 Dreamliners

Thu Aug 06, 2015 5:04 pm

Well, LY still have 787-X options, so why not show all three derivatives?
 
karadion
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RE: LY Orders 15 Dreamliners

Thu Aug 06, 2015 5:14 pm

Quoting amirs (Reply 53):

First picture is a -8
Second picture L-R: -8, -9, -10
Third picture L-R: -9, -10, -8
 
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BlueSky1976
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RE: LY Orders 15 Dreamliners

Thu Aug 06, 2015 5:36 pm

Dear El Al, PLEASE keep this livery!!!
Proudly avoiding 737 MAX since 18.11.2020.
 
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seabosdca
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RE: LY Orders 15 Dreamliners

Thu Aug 06, 2015 7:31 pm

Quoting Prost (Reply 58):
Well, LY still have 787-X options, so why not show all three derivatives?

This seems to me like an affirmative signal that LY is at least seriously considering the -10 with their options.

It would make a ton of sense for them. TLV-JFK should be possible with a full passenger load, and it would handle their biggest European destinations easily.
 
drgmobile
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RE: LY Orders 15 Dreamliners

Thu Aug 06, 2015 7:37 pm

Quoting G500 (Reply 4):
yeah when it comes to ordering American build airplanes, EL AL is more American than U.S airlines

A single order for aircraft from any of the U.S. majors could easily eclipse the entire 41-aircraft fleet of El Al so this assertion is a bit rich.
 
RedChili
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RE: LY Orders 15 Dreamliners

Thu Aug 06, 2015 7:46 pm

Quoting YTZ (Reply 51):
I would think 789/78J would be the better mix. I would think they would want to grow beyond the current 763 capacity. And possibly move up from the 77E on some routes as well. And if they're downgrading from the 744, then the 78J makes sense.

I totally agree with you, but it seems that they have decided to replace the 744 with the 789, which is serious downsizing. Let us hope that they will at least replace the 772 with the 7810.
Top 10 airplanes: B737, T154, B747, IL96, T134, IL62, A320, MD80, B757, DC10
 
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KarelXWB
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RE: LY Orders 15 Dreamliners

Thu Aug 06, 2015 8:08 pm

Quoting RedChili (Reply 63):
which is serious downsizing

They said the 747 is too big for their network, hence the downsize.
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
mjoelnir
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RE: LY Orders 15 Dreamliners

Thu Aug 06, 2015 9:56 pm

Quoting RedChili (Reply 63):
Quoting YTZ (Reply 51):
I would think 789/78J would be the better mix. I would think they would want to grow beyond the current 763 capacity. And possibly move up from the 77E on some routes as well. And if they're downgrading from the 744, then the 78J makes sense.

I totally agree with you, but it seems that they have decided to replace the 744 with the 789, which is serious downsizing. Let us hope that they will at least replace the 772 with the 7810.

Still a very sensible decision, a simplified fleet, lower operation cost and did they fill the 747? It could be that they will take the 787-10 too, but I would not be astonished if they keep to the -8 and -9.
 
originalblis
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RE: LY Orders 15 Dreamliners

Fri Aug 07, 2015 2:18 am

Can someone explain why a 747 is too big for their network? If they are consistently filled on flights to JFK and LHR, aren't they the right size? I realize they're aging and cost more in terms of maintenance and cost per seat, but I'm just confused about the "too big for the network" statement.

Thanks in advance!
originalblis
 
aa87
Posts: 292
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RE: LY Orders 15 Dreamliners

Fri Aug 07, 2015 2:55 am

Quoting originalblis (Reply 66):
Can someone explain why a 747 is too big for their network?

Being in Israel you may know better, but my hunch is that for LY 747 is very route specific. JFK and LHR flights are usually no empty seats, but not on any other routes. So my guess is that for the extra cost, mx, etc., 787s and 737s give them perfect mix. If indeed there are no future 777 next gen orders, my guess is we'll see 5-7 daily flights TLV/JFK/EWR only Dreamliners, at least peak seasons. Pretty cool.
 
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adamblang
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RE: LY Orders 15 Dreamliners

Fri Aug 07, 2015 4:17 am

Quoting originalblis (Reply 66):
If they are consistently filled on flights to JFK and LHR, aren't they the right size?

Just 'cuz it's full doesn't mean it's making money.
 
b747400erf
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RE: LY Orders 15 Dreamliners

Fri Aug 07, 2015 5:39 am

Quoting aa87 (Reply 67):

Being in Israel you may know better, but my hunch is that for LY 747 is very route specific. JFK and LHR flights are usually no empty seats, but not on any other routes.

I thought their 747 only flies to JFK and sometimes to European & Asian routes? They fly a 772 everywhere else.
 
mjoelnir
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RE: LY Orders 15 Dreamliners

Fri Aug 07, 2015 9:47 am

El Al has 6 pax 747-400, 6 767-300 and 6 777-200 in operation, that are 18 long haul frame.
Each fleet is pretty small with 6 frames. I do not see were to EL AL would want to operate the 6 747 to, when the only route filling them up is TLV to JFK or EWR.

An order compromising 15 787 and 13 options, 28 frames in all will replace all that.
The first 15 will take care off replacing the 767-300 and 747-400, both a step up and a step down.
The option of 13 will later take care of replacing the 777-200 and do some expansion.
No place for other frames.
 
aa87
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RE: LY Orders 15 Dreamliners

Fri Aug 07, 2015 11:56 am

Quoting B747400ERF (Reply 69):
I thought their 747 only flies to JFK and sometimes to European & Asian routes?

My understanding is the same, and that's the point. Except for JFK/EWR and possibly LHR, they're generally not filling their 747s on other non-regular 747 routes, so makes perfect sense to replace all current widebodies w 787s. This was so obvious since 787 launch, I'm surprised it took this long for LY to commit.
 
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SR380
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RE: LY Orders 15 Dreamliners

Fri Aug 07, 2015 3:08 pm

EL AL often flies 747 or 777 during the winter season to Geneva, Switzerland in addition of their regular service. They also sometimes operate larger 767 than the usually 737 service. I wonder own many 787s will be send to Geneva then. Cannot understand they didn't pick at least 2-4 748i.

Too bad.
 
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lesfalls
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RE: LY Orders 15 Dreamliners

Fri Aug 07, 2015 5:23 pm

Will their JFK service likely increase When their 747s exit their fleet?
Lufthansa: Einfach ein bisschen besser.
 
amirs
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RE: LY Orders 15 Dreamliners

Fri Aug 07, 2015 7:48 pm

I'm surprised they didnt try to get a deal on getting 4-5 77W or 779.
Maybe because there are different engines on them compared to their 772 with the RR.
Or maybe we will still hear of A350-9/-10 order
 
mjoelnir
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RE: LY Orders 15 Dreamliners

Fri Aug 07, 2015 8:18 pm

Quoting amirs (Reply 74):
I'm surprised they didnt try to get a deal on getting 4-5 77W or 779.
Maybe because there are different engines on them compared to their 772 with the RR.
Or maybe we will still hear of A350-9/-10 order

I am not. It is not very efficient to run a rather small fleet with different types of frames.
 
drgmobile
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RE: LY Orders 15 Dreamliners

Fri Aug 07, 2015 9:06 pm

Quoting originalblis (Reply 66):
Can someone explain why a 747 is too big for their network? If they are consistently filled on flights to JFK and LHR, aren't they the right size? I realize they're aging and cost more in terms of maintenance and cost per seat, but I'm just confused about the "too big for the network" statement.

Filling an aircraft is no indication of whether or not the aircraft works. Tons of seats could be sold at low prices, dragging down the yield. Furthermore, a well rounded fleet is a flexible one. You don't want an aircraft you can only fill on one route!
 
omerlich
Topic Author
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RE: LY Orders 15 Dreamliners

Fri Aug 07, 2015 11:00 pm

Quoting drgmobile (Reply 76):

Both of you are wrong... the 744 flies to also to CDG and BKK..average prices on these routes are high and the planes are packed.
 
waly777
Posts: 761
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RE: LY Orders 15 Dreamliners

Fri Aug 07, 2015 11:14 pm

Quoting omerlich (Reply 77):

This does not mean it's making a profit. 744 are relatively expensive to run and maintain comparatively...especially with their age.

Also, ticket prices are not an indication of the average fare. It is simply a snapshot of what's available....could be the last 3 rbd's available as all the cheap fare in lower rbd's have been sold to fill the plane...or it could very well be that those are prices of mid or even lower rbd's thus indicating good demand.....basically if you don't work in their rev man team...you can't tell.

Secondly, LY themselves with all the access to their info have said the 747's will be phased out....surely they know what works best for their network.
The test of first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold 2 opposed ideas in the mind concurrently, and still function
 
ORDTLV2414
Posts: 451
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RE: LY Orders 15 Dreamliners

Sat Aug 08, 2015 12:38 am

So happy because this long overdue, but also sad because I did my first TATL in a LY 747 and I have grown to see the 747 as a symbol of the airline.

Quoting Miami (Reply 3):

Great news! Now.. Can we finally see MIA?!  

Almost defiently, but now they will have to compete with AA and routing people through PHL. People prefer direct flights but if it is a cost of greater than lets say $300, they will connect. This a generalization, obviously for some people they will pay whatever it takes to fly direct and others simply have to take the cheapest flight.

I would love to see ORD once or twice a week.
 
Prost
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RE: LY Orders 15 Dreamliners

Sat Aug 08, 2015 12:43 am

Having an increased number of 787s vs. their current fleet of 767, 777, 747 might make a lot of sense. Certain days you can use an additional 787to one city for increased capacity, another day to a different city for increased capacity. Having said this, I have no idea if LY has varying deman on their routes for day of week operations.
 
amirs
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RE: LY Orders 15 Dreamliners

Sat Aug 08, 2015 1:16 am

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 75):

I still believe they need an aircraft with more capacity than a 772, especially for JFK and LHR. They dont have any more slots in those airports to add more frequencies.
The alternative is more Luton flights  

for the speculation game:

MIA
ORD
SFO
GRU
EZE
NRT - if they can get the slots
 
Freshside3
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RE: LY Orders 15 Dreamliners

Sat Aug 08, 2015 7:17 am

Will be getting some direct flights to Eilat's new Ramon International? I can see a non-daily JFK/EWR as a possibility.
 
ltbewr
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RE: LY Orders 15 Dreamliners

Sat Aug 08, 2015 11:20 am

Does LY have any dedicated freighter aircraft ? I wonder if by going to the smaller 787 they lose freight capacity in pax flights or figure to save hassle and limited need due to the relative small population size of the Israel by letting other dedicated freighter airlines and service by other airlines on their pax flights take care of those needs.

Yes, these are smaller than the 747's and 777's but likely the fuel burn, long term mx costs by consolidating of fleet types, and more 'right sized' as to number of seats means better seat-miles yields, so huge ops costs advantage. That some will be leases is likely a way to get some into the fleet sooner for financial advantages and cheaper up front. LY is no different than any other airline that has to be run as a profit making business, not an arm of a government.

As to the question of the special security equipment needs of LY and accommodating them, I am quite sure Boeing figured it out a long time ago so were ready for their order and that of others with their own needs.

As to destination cities for LY in North America, while LY mainly serve heavily Jewish areas in terms of overall numbers, there are also many evangelical Christian tourists as well as business persons who want LY's security standards and to support Israel.
 
mjoelnir
Posts: 9411
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:06 pm

RE: LY Orders 15 Dreamliners

Sat Aug 08, 2015 11:57 am

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 83):
Does LY have any dedicated freighter aircraft ? I wonder if by going to the smaller 787 they lose freight capacity in pax flights or figure to save hassle and limited need due to the relative small population size of the Israel by letting other dedicated freighter airlines and service by other airlines on their pax flights take care of those needs.

Ly has one 747-400F. But the main flaw in your argument is imagining that the 787 takes little freight. Compared to the 767 LY will see a big increase in the possibility to move freight, the bigger LD3 instead of LD2. The 787-9 takes 36 LD3 and the 747 takes 32 slightly bigger LD1 or 32 LD3. So the volume capacity of a 787-9 is similar to a 747-400 regarding belly freight and a flight TLV to JFK would allow both to take a full load of freight.
 
RedChili
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Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2005 9:23 am

RE: LY Orders 15 Dreamliners

Sat Aug 08, 2015 3:01 pm

Quoting WALY777 (Reply 78):
Also, ticket prices are not an indication of the average fare. It is simply a snapshot of what's available....could be the last 3 rbd's available as all the cheap fare in lower rbd's have been sold to fill the plane...or it could very well be that those are prices of mid or even lower rbd's thus indicating good demand.....basically if you don't work in their rev man team...you can't tell.

While this is generally true, in the case of El Al it is well known that they have consistently high air fares. And it is well known that a lot of passengers will fly with El Al in spite of their high fares and aging airplanes just because they are El Al, and many passengers feel at home on LY. I am pretty sure that their RASM is significantly higher than most of their competitors.

Quoting WALY777 (Reply 78):
This does not mean it's making a profit. 744 are relatively expensive to run and maintain comparatively...especially with their age.

True, and that is why they need to replace it with a cheaper plane but at the same size. A more competitive and comfortable airplane, with much lower CASM, should mean more loyal customers paying their high fares.

I really believe that LY need at least a 3510 or 77W for some of their major routes, such as JFK, LHR, CDG and occasionally BKK.
Top 10 airplanes: B737, T154, B747, IL96, T134, IL62, A320, MD80, B757, DC10
 
waly777
Posts: 761
Joined: Sun Oct 07, 2012 7:11 pm

RE: LY Orders 15 Dreamliners

Sat Aug 08, 2015 3:49 pm

Quoting RedChili (Reply 85):

Possibly so, but it is not worth the effort, time and expense to introduce a few samples of a different aircraft type just for 3 or so routes. You have to look at the entire network and pick what aircraft is the best fit. For an airline with the WB number of LY. Crew and parts commonality will be crucial with the associated financial and operational benefits.

So far they have gone 787. It is likely they will introduce the -10 as well which should enable them to get rid of the lowest rbds (of the high fares they have so far), thus further improving yields. Add to this that it is unlikely they have year round demand for this peak routes and thus the 787 family should ideally make the lean seasons not as lean whilst giving them the chance to push for higher yield during peaks.

On a personal note...I do think there is a chance they might get the 777x. Should at least have crew commonality.
The test of first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold 2 opposed ideas in the mind concurrently, and still function
 
ORDTLV2414
Posts: 451
Joined: Tue Mar 19, 2013 3:02 am

RE: LY Orders 15 Dreamliners

Sat Aug 08, 2015 4:03 pm

Quoting amirs (Reply 81):
I still believe they need an aircraft with more capacity than a 772, especially for JFK and LHR. They dont have any more slots in those airports to add more frequencies.
The alternative is more Luton flights  

Yes especially during the holidays but even on any given tuesday, LY flights are 100% sold out.

Quoting Freshside3 (Reply 82):
I can see a non-daily JFK/EWR as a possibility.

Nope, Eilat is a holiday destination for European travelers, Americans traveling to Israel are usually going to destinations around Tel Aviv and Jerusalem.

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