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AirStein3
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Orlando-Sanford Airport Space?

Thu Aug 06, 2015 8:41 pm

When you look at Orlando-Sanford Airport, it looks like a perfect secondary for airlines like JetBlue, Southwest, or Spirit. Why do these airlines not fly here? Does Allegiant own all of the gate space there, or what?
 
mugler
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RE: Orlando-Sanford Airport Space?

Thu Aug 06, 2015 8:59 pm

Quoting AirStein3 (Thread starter):
JetBlue, Southwest, or Spirit

They already fly to MCO which is closer to the parks and a better airport.

-

Im sure Allegiant flies to SFB because of cheaper fees, but does Orlando really need a secondary airport?
 
Boeing74741R
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RE: Orlando-Sanford Airport Space?

Thu Aug 06, 2015 9:30 pm

Quoting mugler (Reply 1):
Im sure Allegiant flies to SFB because of cheaper fees, but does Orlando really need a secondary airport?

Cheaper fees is one often-quoted reason why a lot of British charter carriers used SFB instead of MCO in the 90s, 2000s and the early part of this decade. At one point there would have been about 7 charter carriers serving SFB from the UK (Air Atlanta Europe, Excel, First Choice, Monarch, MyTravel, Thomas Cook, Thomsonfly), but many of these airlines have merged with each other (First Choice and MyTravel merged with Thomson and Thomas Cook respectively) or gone bust (Air Atlanta Europe's passenger ops all merged into Excel/XL before XL UK ceased flying).

Air Atlanta/Excel were the ones that flew in the TravelCityDirect-branded 747-200s and -300s into SFB...

https://www.airliners.net/photo/Trave...d=9ac3cc1fd8bc42c2795689b55fc4c139

Out of the three still surviving on that list, Monarch recently stopped serving SFB as part of a wider strategy of completely pulling out of long-haul and charter flights to focus on scheduled short-haul flights and Thomas Cook moved to MCO over a year ago, so that leaves Thomson with 787s.

As you say, SFB is further away from the parks but the cost of flying there compared to MCO was no doubt a big draw for the charter carriers, meaning flights/holidays involving SFB could typically be sold more cheaply.

[Edited 2015-08-06 14:32:02]
 
bjorn14
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RE: Orlando-Sanford Airport Space?

Fri Aug 07, 2015 8:00 am

Just curious is there any room to build and/or expand the terminals?
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[email protected]
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RE: Orlando-Sanford Airport Space?

Fri Aug 07, 2015 8:14 am

Quoting mugler (Reply 1):
MCO which is closer to the parks

MCO = 16.4mi, SFB = 43.3m. But if a price-sensitive family of 4 could save a couple or few hundred $$$ on cheaper flights, then clearly the difference in distance will be broadly unimportant.
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Gazdon121
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RE: Orlando-Sanford Airport Space?

Fri Aug 07, 2015 11:00 am

I think Thomson are now the only UK carrier to SFB amd they got a new route next year from STN
 
76er
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RE: Orlando-Sanford Airport Space?

Fri Aug 07, 2015 11:12 am

The TUI brands JetAir and Arke also fly to SFB from BRU and AMS.
 
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BaconButty
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RE: Orlando-Sanford Airport Space?

Fri Aug 07, 2015 11:46 am

Quoting [email protected] (Reply 4):
MCO = 16.4mi, SFB = 43.3m. But if a price-sensitive family of 4 could save a couple or few hundred $$$ on cheaper flights, then clearly the difference in distance will be broadly unimportant.

In practice, you're at your hotel just as quick from SFB, and no need to fumble with tolls just as you're getting to grips with driving on the wrong side of the road. At least at the Universal end of things and downtown. We were in rows 2/3 of the 787 last year and wizzed through customs and car rental, think we were on the road in 15 minutes.
Down with that sort of thing!
 
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enilria
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RE: Orlando-Sanford Airport Space?

Fri Aug 07, 2015 11:52 am

Quoting [email protected] (Reply 4):
Quoting mugler (Reply 1):
MCO which is closer to the parks

MCO = 16.4mi, SFB = 43.3m. But if a price-sensitive family of 4 could save a couple or few hundred $$$ on cheaper flights, then clearly the difference in distance will be broadly unimportant.
Quoting BaconButty (Reply 7):
In practice, you're at your hotel just as quick from SFB

Problem is, MCO has Disney's Magical Express which is FREE to Disney hotel guests and has taken a huge share of the MCO ground transportation market. SFB has no free transportation to Disney. So, if you rent a car instead you are going to pay several hundred dollars for it over the course of your stay and maybe some parking fees depending where you stay or where you go. Disney's Magic Express dealt a big blow to TPA and SFB as MCO alternatives which is why the airport risked all the trouble it created with taxis and unions.
 
WaywardMemphian
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RE: Orlando-Sanford Airport Space?

Fri Aug 07, 2015 12:40 pm

Drawbacks to the Mouse's ME is that you are limited to the on resort properties and if you want to venture off Disney, you rent a jacked up rate car. I have found Sanford car rental rates much cheaper for things like SUVS or Converts. Magical Express isn't that Magical if you want to hit SeaWorld, Uni, Legoland, Busch Gardens, the Space Center or a whole host of other attractions. I like my freedom. Over the years, I have found driving to the parks while staying on resort saved much time plus parking is free for on resort guests, giving you more time in the parks because ME could take up to an hour, even more, while waiting and then getting to a park via bus that aren't in the monorail system. It was a great ploy by Disney to trap you at their place and that's all some want to do but it's getting paid for by outrageous room rates. Secret ton staying on resort for the budget minded is to rent timeshare points from a DVC owner. But... you have to do it nearly a year in advance. Allegiant has a niche there splitting the difference in distance with the Port at Canaveral and Orlando. Makes perfect sense for their model.
 
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enilria
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RE: Orlando-Sanford Airport Space?

Fri Aug 07, 2015 1:17 pm

Quoting WaywardMemphian (Reply 9):
Drawbacks to the Mouse's ME is that you are limited to the on resort properties
Quoting WaywardMemphian (Reply 9):
and if you want to venture off Disney, you rent a jacked up rate car.

Obviously everybody has an angle on DME, and that is Disney's. They don't want you off-property.

Quoting WaywardMemphian (Reply 9):
Magical Express isn't that Magical if you want to hit SeaWorld, Uni, Legoland, Busch Gardens, the Space Center or a whole host of other attractions.
Quoting WaywardMemphian (Reply 9):
Over the years, I have found driving to the parks while staying on resort saved much time plus parking is free for on resort guests

Here's the issue. Anybody choosing SFB over MCO (except for cities that only have SFB service) is EXTREMELY cheap. It is significantly less convenient. If you have a family and you are that cheap, you are probably going to be too cheap to spring for a rental car that will just sit in your hotel or amusement park parking lot all day. I agree having a rental car is a better use of your time, but if you have the money for that extravagance you probably would just use MCO. Additionally, a taxi from Downtown Disney area hotel to Universal roundtrip is only about the cost of a one day car rental. SeaWorld is dying. They just released their numbers and saw a significant drop in share.
 
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PatrickZ80
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RE: Orlando-Sanford Airport Space?

Fri Aug 07, 2015 1:37 pm

I think if FR ever starts flights across the atlantic (wich they always say they're planning on, but so far never did) then SFB would be a good destination for them. Then add a cheap bus service to downtown Orlando and you don't need MCO at all.
 
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BaconButty
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RE: Orlando-Sanford Airport Space?

Fri Aug 07, 2015 2:16 pm

Quoting enilria (Reply 10):
Here's the issue. Anybody choosing SFB over MCO (except for cities that only have SFB service) is EXTREMELY cheap. It is significantly less convenient. I

?
If you are staying on Universal Boulevard, say, or Downtown, or even the convention center area you're talking 45min vs 20mins, and the difference is easily spent in the terminal and car hire queues, not sure why that's "significantly less convenient". I used it for the first time last year and was pleasantly surprised - I'd always used MCO before. And I wasn't being cheap - I forked out for an upgrade to Thomsons premium product for the family. A lot of people (at least those I speak to) find the notion of voluntarily trapping yourselves in Disney hell 24/7 vulgar even by Orlando's standards, and prefer a degree of independence.
Down with that sort of thing!
 
WaywardMemphian
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RE: Orlando-Sanford Airport Space?

Fri Aug 07, 2015 3:00 pm

If saving over 600 bucks for a family of 4 and 80 to 90 bucks on the car rental that allows you to book two additional nights at Wilderness Lodge in a studio or drop 200 bucks for dinner at Ohana at the Poly, then I'm a complete tight wad. The three trips we have had to Orlando was on Southwest from Branson, Allegiant from XNA because Southwest pulled out of Branson and no direction to MCO front Tulsa, and Southwest from MEM, because our elderly dog can not take kenneling anymore and my Mother dog sit for us. Allegiant allowed us additional days in Orlando for the same money, suffer a bit for 2 hrs. Still, I prefer Southwest for family travel. Our next trip down there will be 2017 for A DISNEY Cruise and Universal visit.

On Seaworld, don't count them out yet, the new CEO is pretty sharp, we Ave one of his former parks, Silver Dollar City, in our back yard in Branson. He can run theme parks well. Discovery Cove is a fantastic experience with the perks that come with it.
 
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enilria
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RE: Orlando-Sanford Airport Space?

Fri Aug 07, 2015 3:01 pm

Quoting BaconButty (Reply 12):
?
If you are staying on Universal Boulevard, say, or Downtown, or even the convention center area you're talking 45min vs 20mins, and the difference is easily spent in the terminal and car hire queues, not sure why that's "significantly less convenient". I used it for the first time last year and was pleasantly surprised - I'd always used MCO before. And I wasn't being cheap - I forked out for an upgrade to Thomsons premium product for the family. A lot of people (at least those I speak to) find the notion of voluntarily trapping yourselves in Disney hell 24/7 vulgar even by Orlando's standards, and prefer a degree of independence.

I have A LOT of experience with the area as well, and with anything there are no absolutes, but in general I stand by my statement. I didn't even mention how much of a total [email protected] that toll road (417) is from Sanford to Disney. Yes, you can use that same toll road from MCO as well (for less money and shorter distance), but there are also pretty reasonable ways to not use the toll road at all by taking Sand Lake or 528 which is cheaper. If you don't use the toll road from Sanford it is a pretty miserable drive right through downtown Orlando if you are going during any kind of peak time.

Further, all those "Sanford is only 25 minutes longer" comparisons depend upon paying a ton for that toll road which is by any measure another additional cost.
 
WaywardMemphian
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RE: Orlando-Sanford Airport Space?

Fri Aug 07, 2015 3:04 pm

When did Allegiant start putting you somewhere at peak time, lol.
 
JohnGalt
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RE: Orlando-Sanford Airport Space?

Fri Aug 07, 2015 5:36 pm

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 3):
Just curious is there any room to build and/or expand the terminals?

As others have said, there is no immediate need to expand, especially with the service drawdown that they have experienced from from the international operators. If the need did arise, there is the employee parking lot to the east of the terminal and the eastern part of the ramp (highlighted in red below).

http://pic.al/sZ.png

Quoting WaywardMemphian (Reply 15):
When did Allegiant start putting you somewhere at peak time, lol.

Only when they were delayed.
 
wingflex744
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RE: Orlando-Sanford Airport Space?

Fri Aug 07, 2015 5:43 pm

If I am not mistaken Icelandair flies its beautiful 757 to Sanford too...
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JohnGalt
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RE: Orlando-Sanford Airport Space?

Fri Aug 07, 2015 5:55 pm

Quoting wingflex744 (Reply 17):

If I am not mistaken Icelandair flies its beautiful 757 to Sanford too...

Icelandair is moving to MCO effective September 4, 2015.

Ref: http://www.icelandair.us/destinations/flights-to-orlando/

P.S. - I didn't know it was called the "MCO Hyatt Regency Orlando International Airport".  
 
CIDFlyer
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RE: Orlando-Sanford Airport Space?

Sat Aug 08, 2015 1:51 am

most cities with non stop service dont have a non stop flight to MCO, so right there it can be more convenient flying non stop vs booking a connection via ATL, ORD, DFW etc. SFB can also capture people going over the the east coast beaches/NASA. Theres more to do in the Orlando area than Disney. I for one have flown into SFB before and found it to be very easy and convenient to use. Dont like the tollway? take some of the main roads. I actually enjoy seeing some of the local landscape.
 
nkops
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RE: Orlando-Sanford Airport Space?

Sat Aug 08, 2015 1:43 pm

Quoting CIDFlyer (Reply 19):
most cities with non stop service dont have a non stop flight to MCO

I think he meant most cities that have non-stops to SFB do not have non-stops to MCO since Allegiant sticks to mainly secondary cites.
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mcoatc
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RE: Orlando-Sanford Airport Space?

Sat Aug 08, 2015 8:27 pm

Just to add a bit to the conversation, the I-4 Ultimate Project has just started, which is a complete re-building of 21 miles of Interstate 4 between SFB and Walt Disney World. The project is going to last until 2021/22 and is not going to make getting from SFB to the parks any easier, although it certainly isn't going to affect the decision making of the casual Central FL visitor.

I believe GOAA has gotten a bit more competitive on their pricing, so they are starting to siphon off some of the Intl traffic at SFB. F9 was also offering some service similar to G4, flying to smaller cities on certain days, but we know their business model is evolving as we speak.

I don't really see anyone else adding SFB over MCO, but as others have said, SFB is in some situations a much better alternative. Similar to MDW/ORD or DFW/DAL, albeit with a smaller metro area.
 
727LOVER
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RE: Orlando-Sanford Airport Space?

Sat Aug 08, 2015 9:21 pm

The redneck airport director Larry Dale just retired. When he left, he bragged about much SFB's pax #s had grown during his tenure. That's basically because of G4, not counting all of the TATL flights that have disappeared.


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lpdal
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RE: Orlando-Sanford Airport Space?

Sat Aug 08, 2015 9:28 pm

One of the problems is that aside from the foreign carriers and scheduled charters, only Allegiant flies to SFB, as stated above. And, contrary to popular belief, Allegiant's fare's aren't always cheap. I just searched up Allegiant fares on FLL-AVL-FLL with one checked bag and one seat assignment on each flight, and it was in excess of $600. Not really low cost, if you ask me.

What also must be remembered is that Disney is extremely expensive for whatever reason (I never saw why they charge such an insane rates) with individual tickets ranging over $100 each, and that's before you even gain entrance to the park. There are packages, I believe, but they aren't particularly cheap either.

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jetblueguy22
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RE: Orlando-Sanford Airport Space?

Sat Aug 08, 2015 11:58 pm

Quoting LPDAL (Reply 25):
One of the problems is that aside from the foreign carriers and scheduled charters, only Allegiant flies to SFB, as stated above. And, contrary to popular belief, Allegiant's fare's aren't always cheap. I just searched up Allegiant fares on FLL-AVL-FLL with one checked bag and one seat assignment on each flight, and it was in excess of $600. Not really low cost, if you ask me.

When you're flying from a remote airport they are cheap. Taking Allegiant flights only from GFK-SFB will set you back 200 bucks. It would be 486 for Oct 3-10 on DL. When you throw in a package you save even more.

A lot on here like to think about the distance from the destination airport to the attraction. But you can't forget the origin. I'd much rather drive the 40 minutes to Disney flying into SFB than have to drive 400 miles to the closest large airport when I can take Allegiant nonstop. I know a lot of people around GFK love G4 and their packages. Perfect for the family who wants to go to Disney.
Pat
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WaywardMemphian
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RE: Orlando-Sanford Airport Space?

Sun Aug 09, 2015 2:05 am

Quoting LPDAL (Reply 23):
What also must be remembered is that Disney is extremely expensive for whatever reason (I never saw why they charge such an insane rates) with individual tickets ranging over $100 each, and that's before you even gain entrance to the park. There are packages, I believe, but they aren't particularly cheap either.

Disney wants you stay a while. A single day admission is insane but get a 5 day magic your way and then it starts to average down. They want you in Disney parks , 6 in all with the two water parks that are expertly done. I get a kick out of folks that crow about getting a free dining plan. No you didn't, you are paying 200 plus a night for a room with the quality of a Comfort Inn off a random interstate exit but with a nice pool and Disney theming. Oh, no free breakfast either at the hotel. You want some of Disney's better rooms at lodges close to parks with monorail service or direct boat service, pucker up, it'e getting downright insane. Like I said earier, even renting timeshare points from DVC owners will get you a studio for around 200 a night and that's without daily servicing for towels and such. Those resorts are nice though. You can stay off site for far cheaper with very nice amenities. Back to that Dining plan, you are just pre paying. There's no real savings by getting it. You can get the most out of it , by researching all the restaurants and meal prices.searching out what's expensive but falls under it. Thing about Disney, better make full service restaurants reservations 6 months out and I mean when the clock strikes 12. The dining effectively stops you from cheating on them by going off site for a meal. Only a Disney full serve restuarant makes Ruth Chris seem average priced. The Magic Bands are a blessing and a curse. The fast pass system is really a crowd management tool. Some rides you have to book out 2 months ahead of time to basically get an appointment so you don't have to wait 2 hrs in line. Everything about Disney is getting so micro managed and it's driven on Disney's end.

If I watch Allegiant's site like a hawk I can get tickets 79 bucks each way or at least one way with the other running around 100 from XNA. They sometimes have a great price at the UNI resorts.
 
lpdal
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RE: Orlando-Sanford Airport Space?

Sun Aug 09, 2015 2:34 am

I also believe the SFB authorities give Allegiant a really good deal on annual usage fees.

This is the same situation and PGD but especially why G4 flies to PIE instead of TPA, because the City Of Saint Petersburg gives G4 excellent rates that are very low to comparable ones at Tampa.

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 24):
I'd much rather drive the 40 minutes to Disney flying into SFB

I live in Florida and on Orlando's slowest tourist day you'll be lucky if it is 40 minutes. GMAPS is showing 53 minutes on SFB-DIS with a distance of 49.5 miles with tolls, and that's if you get lucky where there are no accidents or traffic jams.

-LPDAL
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727LOVER
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RE: Orlando-Sanford Airport Space?

Sun Aug 09, 2015 3:07 am

Quoting LPDAL (Reply 26):
I also believe the SFB authorities give Allegiant a really good deal on annual usage fees.

Yeah...after G4 had started flying some MCO routes.


How long is Kissimmee's runway?
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lpdal
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RE: Orlando-Sanford Airport Space?

Sun Aug 09, 2015 3:22 am

Quoting 727LOVER (Reply 27):

How long is Kissimmee's runway?

There's two, one is 5,001 and the other 6,001.

Interestingly enough, way back in the old days, say the 1970s, when Disney first opened, Shawnee Airlines flew SFB-DWS which was an actual airport (STOLPort) in the middle of Disney World with DHC-6 Twin Otters. The service didn't last for three years before Shawnee went defunct and DWS was left with no service. DWS was later decommissioned as an official airport and the runway, taxiways, and small ramp turned into a staging area for buses, which is still in use today.

-LPDAL
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sunking737
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RE: Orlando-Sanford Airport Space?

Sun Aug 09, 2015 3:49 am

The real question is not Kissimmee (no terminal or TSA), but Lakeland Linder airport, (has a terminal & TSA). I know Direct Air used them as a base. IIRC Falcon was going to start ops their too but the plug was pulled on them all together. With all the construction on I-4 could Lakeland come into play??.
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LAX772LR
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RE: Orlando-Sanford Airport Space?

Sun Aug 09, 2015 4:48 am

Quoting 727LOVER (Reply 22):
That's basically because of G4, not counting all of the TATL flights that have disappeared.

Yeah, but on the flip side, you can't lay most of that at his feet: all but 3 or 4 of those airlines don't even exist anymore, and some have radically changed their biz models to either eliminate that type of flying altogether, or fly into higher-cost airports.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
jetblueguy22
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RE: Orlando-Sanford Airport Space?

Sun Aug 09, 2015 5:25 am

Quoting LPDAL (Reply 26):
I live in Florida and on Orlando's slowest tourist day you'll be lucky if it is 40 minutes. GMAPS is showing 53 minutes on SFB-DIS with a distance of 49.5 miles with tolls, and that's if you get lucky where there are no accidents or traffic jams.

Even still, it beats driving 4.5 hours to the closest airport with nonstop service.
Pat
Look at sweatpants guy. This is a 90 million dollar aircraft, not a Tallahassee strip club
 
727LOVER
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RE: Orlando-Sanford Airport Space?

Sun Aug 09, 2015 5:34 am

Quoting sunking737 (Reply 29):
The real question is not Kissimmee (no terminal or TSA), but Lakeland Linder airport, (has a terminal & TSA). I know Direct Air used them as a base. IIRC Falcon was going to start ops their too but the plug was pulled on them all together. With all the construction on I-4 could Lakeland come into play??.

Wasn't this airline supposed to start LAL?


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jetblueguy22
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RE: Orlando-Sanford Airport Space?

Sun Aug 09, 2015 6:20 am

Quoting 727LOVER (Reply 32):
Wasn't this airline supposed to start LAL?

I've seen their jets sitting on the tarmac at GFK for days at a time. Made me wonder how much money they could be making if the planes just sat there.
Pat
Look at sweatpants guy. This is a 90 million dollar aircraft, not a Tallahassee strip club
 
WaywardMemphian
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RE: Orlando-Sanford Airport Space?

Sun Aug 09, 2015 4:18 pm

Considering Orange Air and their dealing with the private Branson Mo. Airport. If they started operations from Lakeland to Branson. Trouble with that is Allegiant flys out of XNA and Springfield-Branson.
 
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sunking737
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RE: Orlando-Sanford Airport Space?

Sun Aug 09, 2015 5:04 pm

Orange Air is based at SFB, have been since day one. I think they still only have one MD80.
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727LOVER
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RE: Orlando-Sanford Airport Space?

Sun Aug 09, 2015 6:34 pm

Quoting sunking737 (Reply 35):
I think they still only have one MD80.

N918AV
N926AV


So two, unless one is gone.
"We must accept finite disappointment, but never lose infinite hope." - Martin Luther King, Jr.
 
mcogator
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RE: Orlando-Sanford Airport Space?

Mon Aug 10, 2015 2:30 pm

I-4 is garbage. They just started construction on expansion that will take 7 years to complete. It's only going to get worse. You can pretty much avoid I-4 coming from most areas of

Quoting sunking737 (Reply 29):
With all the construction on I-4 could Lakeland come into play??.

Lakeland would be even more reliant on I-4 than SFB would.
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