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How Big Were DTW/MSP/MEM At Their Peak?

Sat Aug 15, 2015 8:43 pm

I'm wondering how big NW's Detroit, Minneapolis/St. Paul, and Memphis hub operations got at their absolute peaks (and when that was) in terms of total available seat miles, and how Delta's current operation compares at MSP and DTW (MEM has obviously been obliterated)? Am I wrong to guess they peaked around 1999-2000 somewhere? I distinctly remember MEM adding a 4th bank and that was as big as they ever got there.
 
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GSPFlyer
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RE: How Big Were DTW/MSP/MEM At Their Peak?

Sat Aug 15, 2015 9:19 pm

I don't have total available seat miles, but in the last 20 years, DTW had the most Total passengers in 2005 with 36,383,514. It stayed around 35 to 36 million from 2004-08, before dropping to around 31,500,000 in 09, and has been in the 32 million range since then, with 32,513,555 In 2014.

I know it's not exactly what you were looking for, but it's something.

Source: http://www.wcaa.us/Portals/WCAACorp/...ngers_and_Operations_1995-2014.pdf
 
surfpunk
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RE: How Big Were DTW/MSP/MEM At Their Peak?

Sat Aug 15, 2015 9:20 pm

Not sure about DTW and MEM, but in 2002, NW had 81.8% of ASM from MSP. This link has customizable data charts, but it looks like it only goes back to 2002: Link
 
michman
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RE: How Big Were DTW/MSP/MEM At Their Peak?

Sat Aug 15, 2015 10:01 pm

Here's a history for the MEM hub up until 2003. http://www.departedflights.com/NWMEMhub.html
It peaked at 289 departure in Jan '87, lost some flights, and then got back up to 265 departures in Jun '01 shortly before 9/11. I don't think NW had more than that afterwards (prior to being dehubbed by DL).
 
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RE: How Big Were DTW/MSP/MEM At Their Peak?

Sat Aug 15, 2015 10:28 pm

Quoting michman (Reply 3):
Here's a history for the MEM hub up until 2003. http://www.departedflights.com/NWMEMhub.html
It peaked at 289 departure in Jan '87, lost some flights, and then got back up to 265 departures in Jun '01 shortly before 9/11. I don't think NW had more than that afterwards (prior to being dehubbed by DL).

Amazingly, KL served MEM also as part of their partnership with NW. Those days are long gone.

AF served CVG also for the same reason.
 
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RE: How Big Were DTW/MSP/MEM At Their Peak?

Sat Aug 15, 2015 10:30 pm

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 4):
Amazingly, KL served MEM also as part of their partnership with NW. Those days are long gone.

Pretty sure it was an MD-11 too! MSP also saw KLM back in the day on the MD-11 and occasionally the 747-300 and -400.

DTW has at least seasonally kept KLM service but it sure would be nice to see them back in MSP!
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flyDTW1992
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RE: How Big Were DTW/MSP/MEM At Their Peak?

Sat Aug 15, 2015 10:31 pm

Quoting GSPFlyer (Reply 1):

I don't have total available seat miles, but in the last 20 years, DTW had the most Total passengers in 2005 with 36,383,514. It stayed around 35 to 36 million from 2004-08, before dropping to around 31,500,000 in 09, and has been in the 32 million range since then, with 32,513,555 In 2014.

I know it's not exactly what you were looking for, but it's something.

Was just recently looking through some of that. 36 mil in '05 was indeed the peak. Very slight increases the past few years, with no real signs of breaking 33 million+ anytime soon. Movements are down significantly as well as smaller regional aircraft lose favor. Back in '05 the CRJ2 and Saabs were king. Cargo has dropped off quite a bit as well.

All in all it's kind of a status quo, unexciting time for DTW. Hoping the next few years bring some new developments.

Anyway, I digress. Long story short, yes DTW is down quite a bit from its NWA peak, but still obviously a massive DL operation that won't be going away anytime soon.
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flyDTW1992
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RE: How Big Were DTW/MSP/MEM At Their Peak?

Sat Aug 15, 2015 10:35 pm

I should also add that peak-day departures for DL at DTW decreased substantially, it was well over 500 in the NWA days, and dropped to near 400. It's started to increase again recently though, back up to the 450+ range.
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RE: How Big Were DTW/MSP/MEM At Their Peak?

Sat Aug 15, 2015 11:19 pm

Quoting flyDTW1992 (Reply 7):
I should also add that peak-day departures for DL at DTW decreased substantially, it was well over 500 in the NWA days, and dropped to near 400. It's started to increase again recently though, back up to the 450+ range.

I believe the same holds true for MSP as well. MSP and DTW have always sort of mirrored one another in terms of hub size and departures. I remember back in 2005 MSP was touted as having one of the most destinations served for an airport at about 160...both hubs had well over 500 daily flights maybe closing in on 600, but have been in the 400-450 range for a while.

MEM was about 260 or so back in the early 00's when it had added a 4th bank. It was cut after 9/11. MEM was usually a shade over 200 daily flights with 3 distinct banks. During the banks it was extremely busy with flights coming in one after another and lined up deep to take off. Ive heard in between banks it was very quiet.

back in 2001-2002 they were flying DC10's between MSP-MEM and DTW-MEM. MSP-DTW almost always had a couple DC10s. I was lucky to fly the DC10 between MSP and MEM in both 01 and 02, full flights both ways.

Wow how times change!
 
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RE: How Big Were DTW/MSP/MEM At Their Peak?

Sat Aug 15, 2015 11:23 pm

Quoting northwestEWR (Reply 5):
AF served CVG also for the same reason.

The same is true for Sabena...
 
steex
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RE: How Big Were DTW/MSP/MEM At Their Peak?

Sat Aug 15, 2015 11:24 pm

This doesn't represent summer peak, but this thread contains a breakdown of NW's hub operations immediately prior to the DL merger in November 2008. It isn't exactly what OP is looking for, but it's a nice snapshot of departures, destinations, and seats.

NW Hub Operations (Week Of 11/3/08)

[Edited 2015-08-15 16:25:16]
 
johns624
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RE: How Big Were DTW/MSP/MEM At Their Peak?

Sat Aug 15, 2015 11:35 pm

Quoting northwestEWR (Reply 5):
DTW has at least seasonally kept KLM service but it sure would be nice to see them back in MSP!

KLM hasn't been in DTW in several years, at least.
 
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RE: How Big Were DTW/MSP/MEM At Their Peak?

Sat Aug 15, 2015 11:44 pm

Quoting flyDTW1992 (Reply 6):
Cargo has dropped off quite a bit as well.

DTW cargo isn't helped by the fact that so much cargo runs out of YIP. Imagine how busy DTW would be if the on-demand operators had their planes over there, versus scattered at YIP and PTK.

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flyDTW1992
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RE: How Big Were DTW/MSP/MEM At Their Peak?

Sat Aug 15, 2015 11:51 pm

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 12):
DTW cargo isn't helped by the fact that so much cargo runs out of YIP. Imagine how busy DTW would be if the on-demand operators had their planes over there, versus scattered at YIP and PTK.

YIP cargo traffic isn't what it once was, either. Though that is a valid point. With YIP and PTK doing all the on-demand business in the area, it does spread things out. It would be nice to see some more Skyteam scheduled cargo move thru DTW, but with so many cargo hubs within a relatively small radius in the central US, it's not necessary. It was a little bittersweet to see a China Cargo 777F divert in yesterday and gas and go straight back to ORD.
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compensateme
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RE: How Big Were DTW/MSP/MEM At Their Peak?

Sun Aug 16, 2015 12:09 am

Hub capacity at DTW & MSP peaked in 2000-2001. I don't have ASM off hand, but in pure capacity MSP peaked at nearly 58K daily seats whereas DTW had slightly fewer than 56K. Breakdown by equipment:

DTW -
SF3: 130
ARJ: 52
DC9: 18
D9S: 131
D95: 61
319: 22
320: 49
72S: 16
757: 50
D10: 16
744: 6

MSP -
SF3: 126
ARJ: 36
DC9: 6
D9S: 134
D95: 23
319: 13
320: 87
72S: 38
757: 51
D10: 10
742: 3
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northwestEWR
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RE: How Big Were DTW/MSP/MEM At Their Peak?

Sun Aug 16, 2015 2:49 am

Quoting johns624 (Reply 11):
KLM hasn't been in DTW in several years, at least.

Are you sure about that...? I could swear I saw them last summer with an A330-200 and again on the 777-200ER.

Quoting Boeing727 (Reply 9):
The same is true for Sabena...

IIRC, Swiss also served CVG. And one point they flew ZRH-ATL on the 743.

Quoting CIDFlyer (Reply 8):
back in 2001-2002 they were flying DC10's between MSP-MEM and DTW-MEM. MSP-DTW almost always had a couple DC10s. I was lucky to fly the DC10 between MSP and MEM in both 01 and 02, full flights both ways.

Lots and lots of domestic DC-10 capacity in the early 2000s before the DC-10-40 retired at the end of Summer 2002.
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flyDTW1992
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RE: How Big Were DTW/MSP/MEM At Their Peak?

Sun Aug 16, 2015 3:08 am

Quoting northwestEWR (Reply 15):

Nope, it's been several years now, I think since right around merger time. Been 4-5x daily on a wide range of DL metal for a while. Would love to see KLM come back but I don't think it's gonna happen. Although they did just hand over the second daily LHR to VS, so who knows.
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RE: How Big Were DTW/MSP/MEM At Their Peak?

Sun Aug 16, 2015 3:16 am

Quoting flyDTW1992 (Reply 16):
IIRC, Swiss also served CVG. And one point they flew ZRH-ATL on the 743.

I can't recall Swissair ever coming to CVG, but Sabena came in on B743 equipment for some time...when DL took over the PanAm trans Atlantic network they actually flew the A310 in DL colors to ZRH from CVG...quite the sight.

Boeing727
 
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RE: How Big Were DTW/MSP/MEM At Their Peak?

Sun Aug 16, 2015 3:21 am

On the topic of DTW cargo, what's the deal with LH? Are they still sending the MD11 out here or has that long since ended?
 
flyDTW1992
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RE: How Big Were DTW/MSP/MEM At Their Peak?

Sun Aug 16, 2015 3:25 am

Quoting A332DTW (Reply 18):
On the topic of DTW cargo, what's the deal with LH? Are they still sending the MD11 out here or has that long since ended?

That ended a year or so ago, I haven't ever heard exactly why. Could just be that they decided the A346's belly cargo was enough for them I suppose.
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RE: How Big Were DTW/MSP/MEM At Their Peak?

Sun Aug 16, 2015 3:40 am

Quoting Boeing727 (Reply 17):
I can't recall Swissair ever coming to CVG, but Sabena came in on B743 equipment for some time...when DL took over the PanAm trans Atlantic network they actually flew the A310 in DL colors to ZRH from CVG...quite the sight.

Mmm.... maybe it was PIT? It was somewhere weird. I know they did ATL on the 743.

Quoting flyDTW1992 (Reply 16):
Nope, it's been several years now, I think since right around merger time. Been 4-5x daily on a wide range of DL metal for a while. Would love to see KLM come back but I don't think it's gonna happen. Although they did just hand over the second daily LHR to VS, so who knows.

Jesus, time is just flying by. I certainly hope they do come back. Nothing looks better than KLM blue.
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RE: How Big Were DTW/MSP/MEM At Their Peak?

Sun Aug 16, 2015 1:58 pm

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 4):
AF served CVG also for the same reason

Air France flying Memphis to Cincinnati!? Man that would be a great experience!   
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RE: How Big Were DTW/MSP/MEM At Their Peak?

Sun Aug 16, 2015 2:20 pm

BoeingGuy & NorthwestEWR--

You're both correct. KL flew MEMAMS, and used an MD11 on the route. I used to work it.

When NW took over (or back?) the route, I believe it was a DC10, and then an A330? I'm not sure of the exact dates, but I'm sure someone on here will...
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RE: How Big Were DTW/MSP/MEM At Their Peak?

Sun Aug 16, 2015 4:34 pm

Quoting northwestEWR (Reply 5):
DTW has at least seasonally kept KLM service but it sure would be nice to see them back in MSP!

So would I. I really love to connect through MSP.

I have a question that i sort of on point. Did NW start decreasing the number of flights in to CVG before the merger with DL with their bankruptcy or has this just been a thing with DL? Same question in regards to MEM as well.
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compensateme
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RE: How Big Were DTW/MSP/MEM At Their Peak?

Sun Aug 16, 2015 4:43 pm

DTW & MSP -- Summer 1992
* this listing is for departures only; keep in mind that many flights during this era -- especially regionals -- operated as through flights

key: AIR = Airlink, DC9 = DC-9-10, D9S = DC-9-30/40, 72S = 727-200

MSP --
AIR: 105
DC9: 22
D9S: 77
D95: 28
M80 20
320: 35
72S: 50
757: 32
D10: 15
747: 4
744: 2

long-haul international: LGW (747), AMS (KLM 74M)
domestic widebodies: BOS (4xD10), DTW (3xD10), LAX (4xD10), ORD (1x747), SEA (3xD10 & 1x747), SFO (1xD10)
*the 747 flights to ORD & SEA were positioning flights to NRT

DTW --
AIR: 83
DC9: 37
D9S: 103
D95: 40
M80: -
320: 17
72S: 59
757: 21
D10: 16
747: 2
744: 2

long-haul international: AMS (KLM 74M), CDG (D10), FRA (D10), NRT (747), SEL (744)
domestic widebodies: BOS (2xD10), LAX (3xD10), MSP (4xD10, 1x744), SEA (2xD10), SFO (3xD10)
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compensateme
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RE: How Big Were DTW/MSP/MEM At Their Peak?

Sun Aug 16, 2015 4:51 pm

Quoting brilondon (Reply 23):
I have a question that i sort of on point. Did NW start decreasing the number of flights in to CVG before the merger with DL with their bankruptcy or has this just been a thing with DL? Same question in regards to MEM as well.

I think you mean 'did DL start decreasing CVG.' Yes, DL started cutting CVG several years well before the merger. After DL closed DFW, CVG swelled to just over 600 peak-day departures; DL began cutting CVG during its bankruptcy and after fuel soared summer 2008 (which made the economics of CVG unsubstantiable), DL announced CVG would be trimmed to 250 peak day departures. In a hypothetical fantasy world where these mergers never took place, DL would've still pursued its wet dream of moving everything through ATL and thus service levels at CVG would likely be between the 80 peak day departures of today and 250 of 2008 (and probably closer to the smaller #).

MEM, OTOH, didn't see cuts until just a few years ago.
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RE: How Big Were DTW/MSP/MEM At Their Peak?

Sun Aug 16, 2015 4:57 pm

Quoting flyDTW1992 (Reply 16):
Nope, it's been several years now, I think since right around merger time.

It's been more than several years and in ended well before the merger. I've been actively flying NW/DL out of DTW since 2001 and have not seen any KL frequencies on the DTW-AMS route in that time period.
 
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compensateme
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RE: How Big Were DTW/MSP/MEM At Their Peak?

Sun Aug 16, 2015 5:03 pm

Quoting michman (Reply 26):
It's been more than several years and in ended well before the merger. I've been actively flying NW/DL out of DTW since 2001 and have not seen any KL frequencies on the DTW-AMS route in that time period.

flyDTW1999's memory is better than yours  . KL resumed service to DTW in late 2000s and operated using a mixture of 332, 777 and 747 equipment.

Here's a trip report from 2009 in which somebody flew KL from DTW:
On Par With Air France? DTW-AMS-MUC, KLM A330 (by PlaneHunter Oct 3 2009 in Trip Reports)
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johns624
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RE: How Big Were DTW/MSP/MEM At Their Peak?

Sun Aug 16, 2015 5:10 pm

Quoting michman (Reply 26):
It's been more than several years and in ended well before the merger. I've been actively flying NW/DL out of DTW since 2001 and have not seen any KL frequencies on the DTW-AMS route in that time period.

Nowhere near that long.
 
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RE: How Big Were DTW/MSP/MEM At Their Peak?

Sun Aug 16, 2015 5:27 pm

Quoting Compensateme (Reply 14):

Hub capacity at DTW & MSP peaked in 2000-2001. I don't have ASM off hand, but in pure capacity MSP peaked at nearly 58K daily seats whereas DTW had slightly fewer than 56K. Breakdown by equipment:

DTW -
SF3: 130
ARJ: 52
DC9: 18
D9S: 131
D95: 61
319: 22
320: 49
72S: 16
757: 50
D10: 16
744: 6

MSP -
SF3: 126
ARJ: 36
DC9: 6
D9S: 134
D95: 23
319: 13
320: 87
72S: 38
757: 51
D10: 10
742: 3

This gels with what I thought; just before 9/11 and the arrival of the CRJs, CR9s, and E175s en masse when the DC-9 fleet was at it's peak. You wouldn't happen to know a ballpark number for how many seats DL runs from DTW and MSP these days, would you?
 
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RE: How Big Were DTW/MSP/MEM At Their Peak?

Sun Aug 16, 2015 6:04 pm

Quoting nwaesc (Reply 22):

You're both correct. KL flew MEMAMS, and used an MD11 on the route. I used to work it.

When NW took over (or back?) the route, I believe it was a DC10, and then an A330? I'm not sure of the exact dates, but I'm sure someone on here will...

The NW/DL flight MEM-AMS was a DC-10, then an A332, and then DL made it a 767-300ER for awhile before it was discontinued.

Quoting N776AU (Reply 21):
Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 4):
AF served CVG also for the same reason

Air France flying Memphis to Cincinnati!? Man that would be a great experience!

They taught us in third grade to figure out the meaning of something by the context that it's in.
 

On a related slightly off-topic note, did AF serve MSP this year? They started it last year seasonally, but I'm not sure if it continued more than one year.

Too bad AF doesn't serve SEA. I'm doing SEA-CDG in October. Notwithstanding the bad press that AF has gotten at times (perhaps undeservedly), last time I did AF SEA-CDG it was right up among my best coach flights ever.
 
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RE: How Big Were DTW/MSP/MEM At Their Peak?

Sun Aug 16, 2015 7:27 pm

Quoting northwestEWR (Reply 15):
IIRC, Swiss also served CVG. And one point they flew ZRH-ATL on the 743.

Swissair* did serve ATL. I flew it in 1996 and 1997, in fact, I have the boarding pass posted on my placard here at the office. The flight number from ZRH to ATL was SR120 at the time.

I don't believe SR ever served CVG, however. It was a DL 767, but I'll have to check when I'm home.
 
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RE: How Big Were DTW/MSP/MEM At Their Peak?

Sun Aug 16, 2015 7:55 pm

Quoting GSP psgr (Reply 29):
This gels with what I thought; just before 9/11 and the arrival of the CRJs, CR9s, and E175s en masse when the DC-9 fleet was at it's peak. You wouldn't happen to know a ballpark number for how many seats DL runs from DTW and MSP these days, would you?

It's a shame that the DC9 is gone, especially the small ones. The level of service you would get on a mainline jet is going to be miles better than that of the CRJ/ERJ operated by regional feed partners. I never got to ride on the -15 as a passenger, but from my experience on them, they are quite a fun ride.

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RE: How Big Were DTW/MSP/MEM At Their Peak?

Sun Aug 16, 2015 8:35 pm

DTW & MSP -- Summer 1987, first summer RC was integrated into NW

key: AIR = airlink, CVR= Convair 580, DC9 = DC9-10, D9S = DC9-30, 727 = 727-100, 72S = 727-200

DTW --
AIR: 64
CVR: 21
DC9: 35
D9S: 76
D95: 24
M82: 2
727: 6
72S: 51
757: 23
D10: 5
747: 1

long-haul international: NRT (747)
domestic widebodies: BOS (1xD10), MSP (3xD10), LAX (1xD10)

noteable: the two MD-80 routed MSP-DTW-MBS, then MBS-DTW-PHX-SNA as NW 255 (RIP) ... 17 daily flights to CLE (pre-CO hub) ... two daily baby 727(-100) to SAN

MSP --
AIR: 72
CVR: 11
DC9: 23
D9S: 45
D95: 26
M82: 8
727: 10
72S: 55
757: 22
D10: 15
747: 4

long-haul international: LGW (747)
domestic widebodies: BOS (2xD10), DTW (2xD10), LAS (1xD10), LAX (3xD10), MEM (2xD10), MKE (2xD10), ORD (1xD10, 1x747), SEA (1xD10, 1x747) & SFO (1xD10, 1x747)

* the 747 to SFO & SEA were through service to NRT; ORD was a positioning flight
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RE: How Big Were DTW/MSP/MEM At Their Peak?

Sun Aug 16, 2015 8:50 pm

Quoting brilondon (Reply 23):
NW had very little M/L service ex. CVG at the time of the merger. Maybe 1-2 flts/day, which is about the level it more or less had had for years leading up to BK, and then the merger.

It used see a ton of RJ85 flying (XJ had a hangar there), and then after they exited the fleet, a lot of CRJ flying...

[Edited 2015-08-16 13:51:04]
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RE: How Big Were DTW/MSP/MEM At Their Peak?

Mon Aug 17, 2015 3:13 am

DTW and MSP have been relatively status-quo in the past few years in the post-merger environment.
The biggest changes have been the reduction in small market/EAS flying (formerly a lot of small Saab markets), capacity reductions in some mid-sized markets, and a reduction in hub-overflights.

On the plus side, there has been increases in both DTW and MSP in eastcoast-westcoast trunk market flying/connections, increases in international capacity, and seasonal increases in flying to Florida/beach markets versus the immediate pre-merger network/capacity. Granted, its nothing like what was being flown back in 2000, but the whole industry is different now versus then.
 
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RE: How Big Were DTW/MSP/MEM At Their Peak?

Mon Aug 17, 2015 3:53 am

Quoting DTW.SCE" class="quote" target="_blank">PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 35):
DTW and MSP have been relatively status-quo in the past few years in the post-merger environment.
The biggest changes have been the reduction in small market/EAS flying (formerly a lot of small Saab markets), capacity reductions in some mid-sized markets, and a reduction in hub-overflights.

On the plus side, there has been increases in both DTW and MSP in eastcoast-westcoast trunk market flying/connections, increases in international capacity, and seasonal increases in flying to Florida/beach markets versus the immediate pre-merger network/capacity. Granted, its nothing like what was being flown back in 2000, but the whole industry is different now versus then.

The composition of DTW & especially MSP is dramatically different today than it was in the 1990s/early 2000s when the crux of the capacity from DTW was concentrated around the Lower Midwest + East and MSP was concentrated around the Upper Midwest + Central/West.

The strength of NW in the 1990s and 2000s was the Midwest ("Heartland"), which was long a region DL failed with service to ATL (no surprise given its poor geographic location in handing flow traffic from the region other than to the Southeast). Alas, they found a winning formula when they acquired NW -- give passengers no other choice; fly mainline equipment to ATL and restrict regional jets to DTW/MSP to just high-yielding traffic. Take a look at the markets UA is significantly increasing capacity to -- you guessed it, the "Heartland."

I'm going to disagree about the E-W increases -- capacity from DTW is stagnant. In the 2000s, NW ran 5 flights to LAX & SFO; LAX would drop lose a flight during the winter while SFO would lose 2. DL has replicated this schedule, except 1) a sixth seasonal flight and 2) peak-day departures have been reduced to just 3 days. There are weeks in which DL operates more capacity on MSY-LAX than DTW, despite MSY being 1/2 the market size AND having nonstop competition from three other carriers AND having no hub.
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RE: How Big Were DTW/MSP/MEM At Their Peak?

Mon Aug 17, 2015 12:30 pm

Quoting Compensateme (Reply 27):
flyDTW1999's memory is better than yours  . KL resumed service to DTW in late 2000s and operated using a mixture of 332, 777 and 747 equipment.

Okay, I see there was a brief period (2008 - 2009) I missed when KL618 operated DTW-AMS. It was a 332 flight -- KLM Returns To DTW (by TwoLz2rn Nov 5 2007 in Civil Aviation)
Otherwise, I stand by my statement.

[Edited 2015-08-17 05:32:34]
 
washingtonflyer
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RE: How Big Were DTW/MSP/MEM At Their Peak?

Mon Aug 17, 2015 2:08 pm

Somewhere around the Internet someone did a photo expose on the CVG terminal after DL pulled down its major operation there. Very creepy stuff.

Similar to the abandoned shopping malls website.
 
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RE: How Big Were DTW/MSP/MEM At Their Peak?

Mon Aug 17, 2015 3:30 pm

Quoting Compensateme (Reply 36):
I'm going to disagree about the E-W increases -- capacity from DTW is stagnant. In the 2000s, NW ran 5 flights to LAX & SFO; LAX would drop lose a flight during the winter while SFO would lose 2. DL has replicated this schedule, except 1) a sixth seasonal flight and 2) peak-day departures have been reduced to just 3 days. There are weeks in which DL operates more capacity on MSY-LAX than DTW, despite MSY being 1/2 the market size AND having nonstop competition from three other carriers AND having no hub.

True, its not what it was in the early 2000s but at least its better now than it was immediately post-merger/economic downturn. Post-merger, DTW-SFO was down to 3x/day, LAX was 4x, SEA was 4x, PDX was cut. At least now they've got the domestic 763s and now most have gotten a frequency back.
Not like the multiple DC-10-40s per day from the late-90s /early 2000s.
 
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RE: How Big Were DTW/MSP/MEM At Their Peak?

Mon Aug 17, 2015 4:34 pm

I've actually been relatively surprised at how relatively little 717 capacity has ended up in DTW/MSP, while how much of it has ended up elsewhere-particularly upgrading smallish Southeastern markets to ATL and building up LAX. I had predominantly expected the 717 fleet to be a DTW/MSP/NYC based one, which is disappointing considering how crowded, stressful, and chaotic ATL has become, particularly on Concourses A and B, which feel strained to handle the capacity DL is running through them. The much newer DTW operation on the other hand, feels like it's at very most operating at 70
 
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RE: How Big Were DTW/MSP/MEM At Their Peak?

Mon Aug 17, 2015 4:45 pm

Quoting northwestEWR (Reply 5):
MSP also saw KLM back in the day on the MD-11 and occasionally the 747-300 and -400.

I can recall this was as recent as 2005 or 2006.
 
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pwm2txlhopper
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RE: How Big Were DTW/MSP/MEM At Their Peak?

Mon Aug 17, 2015 4:47 pm

This is the MEM I remember.

Quoting nwaesc (Reply 22):
BoeingGuy & NorthwestEWR--

You're both correct. KL flew MEMAMS, and used an MD11 on the route. I used to work it.

When NW took over (or back?) the route, I believe it was a DC10, and then an A330? I'm not sure of the exact dates, but I'm sure someone on here will...

Almost. When KLM first came to MEM during the mid-1990's, the flight was originally flown by the MD-11. Later on, late 1990's-early 2000's, the equipment was changed to 767-300. Eventually, Northwest took over the flights and used DC-10-30's, and later A330's before the route was discontinued by Delta, who were flying 767-300ER at the time the route was dropped.

Also, I believe I remember there was a short time that NW and KLM would alternate flying the route. One would fly it for a few months, and then the other would for a few months. Finally, NW took over completely.

[Edited 2015-08-17 09:50:19]

[Edited 2015-08-17 09:55:51]
 
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NWAESC
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RE: How Big Were DTW/MSP/MEM At Their Peak?

Mon Aug 17, 2015 7:23 pm

That pic is the MEM I remember as well.

The KL flight must've switched to a 767 sometime after mid-1999, when I left. I worked it daily when I was there, and it was an MD-11 the entire time...
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
 
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RE: How Big Were DTW/MSP/MEM At Their Peak?

Mon Aug 17, 2015 8:00 pm

Quoting pwm2txlhopper (Reply 42):

This is the MEM I remember

Thanks for that picture. Today it's sad that Terminal C ( on the far right) is the busiest concourse since everyone but DL is over there.

Thanks for verifying that KLM used a 763 on the AMS route in the early 2000's. I can remember flying into MEM in early evenings ( maybe around 6pm) and seeing the KLM flight being readied for departure down at the far southwest end of Terminal B.
 
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NWAESC
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RE: How Big Were DTW/MSP/MEM At Their Peak?

Mon Aug 17, 2015 11:16 pm

I don't even think the entire "Y" is still open, is it?
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
 
michman
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RE: How Big Were DTW/MSP/MEM At Their Peak?

Mon Aug 17, 2015 11:28 pm

Quoting nwaesc (Reply 45):
I don't even think the entire "Y" is still open, is it?

The concourse B Y part is open and being renovated next year. It's concourses A and C that were shuttered (and partially demolished).


http://www.memphisflyer.com/NewsBlog...nal-airport-to-downsize-concourses

http://www.bizjournals.com/memphis/n...-update-on-114m-consolidation.html

[Edited 2015-08-17 16:30:48]
 
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RE: How Big Were DTW/MSP/MEM At Their Peak?

Mon Aug 17, 2015 11:34 pm

Quoting washingtonflyer (Reply 38):
Somewhere around the Internet someone did a photo expose on the CVG terminal after DL pulled down its major operation there. Very creepy stuff.

Similar to the abandoned shopping malls website

Ive seen this, it was mainly a photo shoot of concourse C and some pics of A. A has since been reopened to all other carriers, but C was a depressing sight to see...I remember the days of connecting through there, DL at CVG was an impressive operation.
 
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RE: How Big Were DTW/MSP/MEM At Their Peak?

Thu Aug 20, 2015 12:42 pm

Quoting DTW.SCE" class="quote" target="_blank">PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 39):
True, its not what it was in the early 2000s but at least its better now than it was immediately post-merger/economic downturn. Post-merger, DTW-SFO was down to 3x/day, LAX was 4x, SEA was 4x, PDX was cut. At least now they've got the domestic 763s and now most have gotten a frequency back.Not like the multiple DC-10-40s per day from the late-90s /early 2000s.

I'm not comparing it to late 90s/early 2000s, but rather the service levels NW provided throughout the 2000s. DTW/LAX consistently operated at 5x daily (and often 6x eastbound only), losing a flight only in the winter (sometimes longer, depending on the year). DL, OTOH, has been inconsistent with frequency and has operated the flight -- for example -- 5xMo, 4xFr/Su, 3xTu/We/Th, tossing in extra frequency/capacity during busy periods and conversing dropping during slower periods. Depending on equipment, the route may operate with more capacity than ever on Mondays, but the least amount Tu/We/Th since the 1980s. And there have been days in which the last DTW-LAX flight is at 03:30PM and no redeye from LAX-DTW, despite four (three operating with 763) to ATL.

There have been many schedules in which, some days of the week, MSY/LAX has had more capacity into LAX than DTW, despite a market producing 1/2 as many passengers during that time period, having no flow traffic for DL, and having direct competition from UA & WN (of course, DL may be attempting to flood the market with cheap seats to chase off UA, but that's another thread).

DL garners premiums not because it offers PTVs, but because it tightly restricts capacity in its truck markets. Recently WN launched a September fare sale which saw RT$138 MDW-LAX, $169 BWI-LAX etc. The legacies matched in these markets. From DTW, DL's lowest was RT$380 -- in "Economy Basic" of course. You could fly AA, UA or WN for RT$338, though. As I've debated with jetatlanta before... DL's garnering premiums not because it has a perception of a premium product, but because it controls pricing in its truck markets. And unlike 10 years ago, people are willing to pay more for a nonstop today.
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RE: How Big Were DTW/MSP/MEM At Their Peak?

Thu Sep 03, 2015 8:48 pm

So according to these statistics, MSP and DTW are less than 75% as large as they were back at their peak in terms of available seats if you accept MSP at 58k and DTW at 56k (though load factors were nowhere near so high as they are now). The two combined are still only about 65% of what ATL alone is.

AL..Hub...Deps..Dep YoY..Seats..Seats YOY (2014 to 2015)

DL..ATL…..940....2.4%…127,471….3.0%
DL..MSP…..380...-2.9%….41,899….1.1%
DL..DTW…..390...-6.1%….40,829…-0.4%
DL..JFK…..181....7.1%.…24,178….7.8%
DL..SLC…..224...-4.5%….23,913.…1.7%
DL..LGA…..233...-1.0%….20,867…-0.4%
DL..LAX…..149....14.6%…20,400….15.7%
DL..SEA…..101....64.8%…12,948….39.8%

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