IndiGo Firms Order For 250 A320neos

chiad · Mon Aug 17, 2015 7:12 am

The long awaited Indigo order is finally firm!

Flight Global reports!
http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...rms-order-for-250-a320neos-415764/

AA737-823 · Mon Aug 17, 2015 7:16 am

That's insane, and it will never work.
But... we said that about Ryanair, too!!

chiad · Mon Aug 17, 2015 7:17 am

With it The NEO steams past 4100 firm order, and IndiGo should have a NEO backlog of 430.

[Edited 2015-08-17 00:20:07]

KarelXWB · Mon Aug 17, 2015 7:18 am

The press release can be found here:

http://www.airbus.com/newsevents/new...ft-airbus-largest-order-by-number/

BobMUC · Mon Aug 17, 2015 7:19 am

Confirmation from Airbus:

IndiGo firms up 250 A320neo aircraft – Airbus’ largest order by number

http://www.airbus.com/newsevents/new...ft-airbus-largest-order-by-number/

P.S.: Not bad for the summer break in Toulouse!

chiad · Mon Aug 17, 2015 8:00 am

The NEO backlog seems to be at some 4130+ frames.
IMHO the "planned" 60 frames per month production rate now is inevitable, rather how fast it can be done.
Even if was to happen from January 1st 2016 the backlog would sill cover almost 6 years of production. With current production rate it would cover more than 8 years.

starbucks · Mon Aug 17, 2015 8:06 am

Quoting chiad (Reply 5):

If my count in my tracking logbook is correct (updated in June with Airbus order Excel sheet) the A32Xneo has indeed 4130+, 4161 to be exact

[email protected] · Mon Aug 17, 2015 8:10 am

Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 1):

That's insane, and it will never work.

It's inevitably Americans who say such things. How dare a very profitable airline from a economically fast-growing countries order so many aircraft?

chiad · Mon Aug 17, 2015 8:14 am

Quoting starbucks (Reply 6):
4161 to be exact

Ah ... thanks buddy!

Asiaflyer · Mon Aug 17, 2015 8:42 am

Big congrats to Airbus and IndiGo!!!
For a while I did not think we were going to see this order coming as the initial LoI expired.

holzmann · Mon Aug 17, 2015 10:26 am

Which engine option?

billreid · Mon Aug 17, 2015 10:30 am

Quoting [email protected] (Reply 7):
It's inevitably Americans who say such things. How dare a very profitable airline from a economically fast-growing countries order so many aircraft?

It does hold a lot of risk if the order is completed.

Wondering if it will help Boeing as well as a full Airbus order book might make Boeing slots more attractive.
I see AB and BA walking step by step, side by side selling similar levels of products.
Neither company will ever get a true advantage in sales over the other.

FlyingAY · Mon Aug 17, 2015 10:33 am

Quoting billreid (Reply 11):
It does hold a lot of risk if the order is completed.

Risk for whom? Airbus will not have difficulty reselling the slots should Indigo go belly up...

Mortyman · Mon Aug 17, 2015 10:41 am

Any chance of Airbus opening yet another production line ?

Kashmon · Mon Aug 17, 2015 10:54 am

Quoting FlyingAY (Reply 12):

I think Jet, spicejet, AI etc have more chance of going belly up than Indigo...

MrHMSH · Mon Aug 17, 2015 10:56 am

Quoting billreid (Reply 11):
It does hold a lot of risk if the order is completed.

There's little risk. If IndiGo takes them all, Airbus have sold 400+ A320neos as a price they are happy with. If they don't, then Airbus has 400+ A320neo slots.

Quoting billreid (Reply 11):
Wondering if it will help Boeing as well as a full Airbus order book might make Boeing slots more attractive.
I see AB and BA walking step by step, side by side selling similar levels of products.
Neither company will ever get a true advantage in sales over the other.

Probably not.

Seeing as this is an order for a stupid number of A320neos from an airline in a country where the average wage is low, I'm expecting a statement explaining that this is a bogus order that Airbus have logged just to put the numbers up...

PM · Mon Aug 17, 2015 11:02 am

I've enjoyed several flights on IndiGo. It's the best airline in India.

holzmann · Mon Aug 17, 2015 11:15 am

^That's a low bar to meet.

scouseflyer · Mon Aug 17, 2015 11:18 am

I remember when they ordered their first 100 planes and there much skepticism about whether they'd take any and the full order was completed last year.

Massive order though

lightsaber · Mon Aug 17, 2015 11:34 am

Amazing when you consider they have less than a hundred airframes. As India's most efficient carrier, this puts the other carriers on notice. I believe 6E will pull this off. The question is, what international airlines will they partner with to transfer traffic

Pratt & Whitney, a unit of United Technologies Corp, and CFM, a joint venture between GE and Snecma, supply the two engines for the A320neo. IndiGo picked the Pratt & Whitney PW1100G-JM engines for its earlier A320neo order.
http://in.reuters.com/article/2014/1...airbus-group-idINKCN0I40L320141015

I've yet to hear a confirmation on the engine. So perhaps 6E is looking for a lower priced engine?

Quoting chiad (Reply 5):
IMHO the "planned" 60 frames per month production rate now is inevitable, rather how fast it can be done.
Even if was to happen from January 1st 2016 the backlog would sill cover almost 6 years of production. With current production rate it would cover more than 8 years.

I've heard Airbus will try to go to 63 per month. The order backlog says the ramp is past due. CFM has

Quoting Mortyman (Reply 13):

Any chance of Airbus opening yet another production line ?

They are bringing Mobile online. Having four FALs is more than ideal for efficiency. It would be best to automate the existing lines for efficiency and production rate.

Quoting MrHMSH (Reply 15):
Seeing as this is an order for a stupid number of A320neos from an airline in a country where the average wage is low, I'm expecting a statement explaining that this is a bogus order that Airbus have logged just to put the numbers up...

This is a huge order. However, Indigo is profitable while the bulk of the Indian aviation sector is not. With the added range of the NEO, they will fly further. IMHO, this is not a bogus order. Such comments were made about B6 with a much smaller potential customer base.

For example, I do not think the subsidies of Air India are long term sustainable. Thus eventually AI will fail making over a hundred of these planes find an easy home.

India should be growing faster economically than they are. If some political (corruption reduction) as well as economic reforms go through, than the demand will grow quickly.

Also recall that Indigo tends to return aircraft after only 6 years of utilization. So quite a few of these NEOs will replace NEOs that were delivered earlier. What are the dates of this order? Even with a production ramp, Airbus has no slots for 3+ years. Thus the bulk of this order could be just to replace the as yet undelivered NEOs.

Lightsaber

racercoup · Mon Aug 17, 2015 11:34 am

Quoting PM (Reply 16):

Seeing as this is an order for a stupid number of A320neos from an airline in a country where the average wage is low, I'm expecting a statement explaining that this is a bogus order that Airbus have logged just to put the numbers up...

These orders have no real meaning because we don't know the terms. Deliveries could be spread out over 30 years. Indigo already had 180 waiting to be delivered, this order brings the total outstanding to 430. Certainly a lot for an airline that is currently operating only 97 frames.

Whatever, in the end it's deliveries that count and that is a very different story.

[email protected] · Mon Aug 17, 2015 11:36 am

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 19):
India should be growing faster economically than they are.

But still around 7.5% per year 2010-2014, i.e. effectively the same as China.

Agreed re. need to loosen, or cut, onerous regulations and to invest properly (who pays?!) into their aviation system.

[Edited 2015-08-17 04:38:03]

ap305 · Mon Aug 17, 2015 11:39 am

If this was any other Indian carrier, I would have had a good laugh... Indigo thrives and will continue to do so.

astuteman · Mon Aug 17, 2015 11:40 am

Quoting starbucks (Reply 6):
4161 to be exact

4161 it is, including this and the 20xA320 to IAG earlier in the month.

For now, at least, that gives the A32X NEO 56% of the market since the launch of the 737 MAX (3593 vs 2835).

Quoting scouseflyer (Reply 18):
I remember when they ordered their first 100 planes and there much skepticism about whether they'd take any and the full order was completed last year.

November 14th 2014 I believe

Thus demonstrating that the only "vapor" (note the spelling) aspect of the whole of that order is that issuing from the rear of the engines as the go about their in-service business .....

Rgds

VS4ever · Mon Aug 17, 2015 12:51 pm

Quoting racercoup (Reply 20):
These orders have no real meaning because we don't know the terms. Deliveries could be spread out over 30 years. Indigo already had 180 waiting to be delivered, this order brings the total outstanding to 430. Certainly a lot for an airline that is currently operating only 97 frames.

Whatever, in the end it's deliveries that count and that is a very different story.

I would agree, but based on the link below (yes sadly not a direct quote) that Indigo plan to only keep their frames for 6 years or so, to keep the maintenance costs etc. down. So they have 97 now and 180 ready, so call it 2 to 1, which means they are booking their replacements already. Same with this 250 order, I don't think they are planning to run a fleet of 430. More like 200-250 I suspect. I am sure someone can do the math better than I.

http://news.yahoo.com/airline-indigo...0neos-record-airbus-071900931.html

"The order is also part of Indigo's drive to keep its fleet young -- it retires its aircraft after six years -- to minimise maintenance and fuel costs"

So we shall see, but a big order nonetheless and great PR for the 320neo.

MaverickM11 · Mon Aug 17, 2015 1:18 pm

Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 1):
That's insane, and it will never work.

Indians demand fabulous service!

Quoting ap305 (Reply 22):
If this was any other Indian carrier, I would have had a good laugh... Indigo thrives and will continue to do so.

PW100 · Mon Aug 17, 2015 3:19 pm

Quoting racercoup (Reply 20):
These orders have no real meaning because we don't know the terms

Oh really?

So the 150 77X order by EK must then really be the ultimate of meaningless . . . :

http://www.boeing.com/commercial/cus...ounces-an-order-for-150-777xs.page

ODwyerPW · Mon Aug 17, 2015 4:43 pm

Quoting [email protected] (Reply 7):
Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 1):
That's insane, and it will never work.

It's inevitably Americans who say such things. How dare a very profitable airline from a economically fast-growing countries order so many aircraft?

Pearson, I think you missed his sarcasm.

I interpreted it as jest.

Not all of us Americans drag our knuckles when we walk. A good number of us try to maintain a healthy world view.

bgm · Mon Aug 17, 2015 5:07 pm

Quoting chiad (Reply 2):
IndiGo should have a NEO backlog of 430

I doubt IndiGo will operate all 430 of them at the same time. As someone else noted, they usually keep aircraft for around 6 years. Congrats to 6E. I've flown them several times and they truly are the best airline in India.

Quoting holzmann (Reply 17):
^That's a low bar to meet.

Well at least the bar isn't as low as US carriers...

PEK777 · Mon Aug 17, 2015 5:15 pm

Quoting holzmann (Reply 10):
Which engine option?

The New Engine Option, hence the 'neo' in A320neo as stated in the thread title.

scbriml · Mon Aug 17, 2015 5:46 pm

Congrats to Indigo and Airbus for this significant order. champagne

Quoting racercoup (Reply 20):
These orders have no real meaning because we don't know the terms.

We don't know the terms of many orders, including over 1,000 737 orders for unidentified customers. * shrug *

[Edited 2015-08-17 10:47:10]

ec99 · Mon Aug 17, 2015 5:48 pm

Quoting ODwyerPW (Reply 27):
Pearson, I think you missed his sarcasm. I interpreted it as jest.

Perhaps the new world sarcasm was too thinly veiled?

Quoting PW100 (Reply 26):
Oh really? So the 150 77X order by EK must then really be the ultimate of meaningless . . . :

This is an apples to oranges comparison. 150 77X is about 2/3 of EK's current fleet (219 total airplanes). IndiGo has 97 airplanes. 250 A320neos is a 2.5 times their current fleet.

An order representing 2/3 of your total fleet is far different from one representing 5/2.

EPA001 · Mon Aug 17, 2015 5:55 pm

Quoting chiad (Thread starter):
The long awaited Indigo order is finally firm!

Flight Global reports!
http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...5764/

Great news to see this long awaited order being firmed up.

.

Quoting BobMUC (Reply 4):
P.S.: Not bad for the summer break in Toulouse!

Not bad indeed.

.

Quoting chiad (Reply 5):
IMHO the "planned" 60 frames per month production rate now is inevitable, rather how fast it can be done.

I agree. How they will put this off through the supply chain will be the great challenge to come.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 19):

Amazing when you consider they have less than a hundred airframes. As India's most efficient carrier, this puts the other carriers on notice. I believe 6E will pull this off. The question is, what international airlines will they partner with to transfer traffic

That is indeed an interesting question.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 19):
I've heard Airbus will try to go to 63 per month. The order backlog says the ramp is past due.

That is the first time I hear a number above 60 airplanes per month. Which us quite incredible. No doubt the MAX-production will go into these numbers as well. Suppliers to Airbus and Boeing are going to be very busy the coming years.

Quoting scbriml (Reply 30):
Congrats to Indigo and Airbus for this significant order.

They certainly are in place!

.

[email protected] · Mon Aug 17, 2015 5:57 pm

Quoting ODwyerPW (Reply 27):

Pearson, I think you missed his sarcasm. I interpreted it as jest.

Not all of us Americans drag our knuckles when we walk. A good number of us try to maintain a healthy world view.

I didn't, hence

Nevertheless, it is typically Americans who post such things.

bgm · Mon Aug 17, 2015 5:59 pm

Quoting pek777 (Reply 29):
The New Engine Option, hence the 'neo' in A320neo as stated in the thread title.

I think he was asking which engine on the NEO (PW or CFM).

solnabo · Mon Aug 17, 2015 6:25 pm

Quoting scbriml (Reply 30):
Congrats to Indigo and Airbus for this significant order.

Second that

glideslope · Mon Aug 17, 2015 6:36 pm

Quoting FlyingAY (Reply 12):
Risk for whom? Airbus will not have difficulty reselling the slots should Indigo go belly up...

Given the safety record of India Based Airlines, and this being a Indian Based LCC let's pray it's not "belly up" literally.

sassiciai · Mon Aug 17, 2015 6:45 pm

Quoting ODwyerPW (Reply 27):
Not all of us Americans drag our knuckles when we walk. A good number of us try to maintain a healthy world view.

Well, that's refreshing! Thanks for that.

TC957 · Mon Aug 17, 2015 8:24 pm

Quoting glideslope (Reply 36):
Given the safety record of India Based Airlines

It's an awful lot better than their safety record on their railway network or roads.

TheRedBaron · Mon Aug 17, 2015 10:04 pm

Amazing order and more, AMAZING backlog, I guess the engine manufacturers are fighting tooth and nail for this one...a heck of engine order...

I wonder what it will involve on the production and logistics front, truly an enormous task at hand....let the billions dance...

Congratulations to Airbus and more important to India for going forward with connecting the country...

TRB

billreid · Mon Aug 17, 2015 10:05 pm

Quoting FlyingAY (Reply 12):
Risk for whom? Airbus will not have difficulty reselling the slots should Indigo go belly up...

For IndiGo if they take on all the aircraft.

Quoting MrHMSH (Reply 15):
Seeing as this is an order for a stupid number of A320neos from an airline in a country where the average wage is low, I'm expecting a statement explaining that this is a bogus order that Airbus have logged just to put the numbers up...

I enjoy your cynicism. The problem is determining a real order from an inflated one.

Quoting PW100 (Reply 26):
So the 150 77X order by EK must then really be the ultimate of meaningless . . . :

Interesting, but not relevent to the IndiGo contract.
Wouldn't it be wise to look at every order as a single commitment to buy. Honestly, EK's order neither enhances or hurts IndiGo's order. What impacts the order is the ability to fill planes and pay the prices agreed to.
I always remain a bit dumbfounded with large orders because in most cases changes to the market environment is unpredictable and unstable if we look years out.

Maybe IndiGo is allowed to sell up to 350 of their slots to other airlines and AB let them pick a number, any number.
Who knows. The rral question is how many will be delivered.

VS4ever · Mon Aug 17, 2015 10:21 pm

Quoting TC957 (Reply 39):
It's an awful lot better than their safety record on their railway network or roads.

Quite true and thankfully unlike their trains and buses, you can't ride on the outside of a plane...

I for one am pleased to see India moving forward and developing it's transit links. With 1.2bn people, even if only a portion of those fly anywhere, its a market that's still going to see signficant growth in the coming years.

MrHMSH · Mon Aug 17, 2015 10:39 pm

Quoting billreid (Reply 41):
I enjoy your cynicism. The problem is determining a real order from an inflated one.

Every firm order booked by Airbus is real. The customer may not take delivery of them, but they've put money down and Airbus will deliver the plane unless deferred or cancelled, at which point they reassign the slots.

PS, I enjoy my cynicism too!

glideslope · Mon Aug 17, 2015 11:11 pm

Quoting TC957 (Reply 39):

It's an awful lot better than their safety record on their railway network or roads.

Yea, that's refreshing.

racercoup · Tue Aug 18, 2015 12:00 am

Quoting scbriml (Reply 30):
We don't know the terms of many orders, including over 1,000 737 orders for unidentified customers. * shrug *

Agreed - shrug, shrug

But delivery's hide nothing.............

Quoting MrHMSH (Reply 43):
Every firm order booked by Airbus is real. The customer may not take delivery of them, but they've put money down and Airbus will deliver the plane unless deferred or cancelled, at which point they reassign the slots.

Amedeo comes to mind.

AFGMEL · Tue Aug 18, 2015 12:07 am

Quoting scouseflyer (Reply 18):
^That's a low bar to meet.

I haven't flown domestically in India for a few years now, but let me tell you that when I did, the flights were better than most domestic airlines - particularly JQ, UA, FR.

lightsaber · Tue Aug 18, 2015 12:48 am

Quoting ap305 (Reply 22):

If this was any other Indian carrier, I would have had a good laugh... Indigo thrives and will continue to do so.

I agree. With any other Indian carrier I would be stating their issues. With 6E? They shall thrive.

Quoting ODwyerPW (Reply 27):
Not all of us Americans drag our knuckles when we walk. A good number of us try to maintain a healthy world view.

I like to think I'm in that camp.

Quoting bgm (Reply 28):
I doubt IndiGo will operate all 430 of them at the same time. As someone else noted, they usually keep aircraft for around 6 years. Congrats to 6E. I've flown them several times and they truly are the best airline in India.

I won't take the opposite side. Indigo isn't even operating all 100 of their initial order (delivered) and they had to go out and lease airframes! 6E lets go airframes before the maintenance bill hits them. Even if that means selling the A320 for less profit.

Quoting EPA001 (Reply 32):
I agree. How they will put this off through the supply chain will be the great challenge to come.

The challenge will be engines. From what I've heard, Airbus has lined up everything else. And Pratt/IAE is willing to make up the difference. It is CFM (see link below) that is the bottleneck.

Quoting EPA001 (Reply 32):
That is the first time I hear a number above 60 airplanes per month.

Note: Note yet announced, but Airbus is determining if the supply chain can do it:

Later, Airbus sales chief John Leahy — who has talked about announcing by year-end a rate increase on the A320 rate to 63 per month — fired back a blistering, non-diplomatic riposte.
source:
http://www.seattletimes.com/business...le-jet-engines-or-get-left-behind/

Late edit:
GE is building toward 1800 engines per year. 600 737MAX, or 1200 engines. So 300 engines for Airbus. But will they are not promising to meet Airbus' ramp rate:
http://www.seattletimes.com/business...0-jets-a-month-may-stretch-limits/
“If the market wanted more CFM56 engines we could do it,” Bastin said. “Everything is possible with the right amount of time.”
So there is an implication there. With the greater sales of A321s... I cannot say I'm surprised CFM is pushing back but there is an opportunity. Airbus will ramp their airframes and will have no patience having to wait because engines were promised to Boeing...

Lightsaber

[Edited 2015-08-17 18:21:34]

scbriml · Tue Aug 18, 2015 7:09 am

Quoting billreid (Reply 40):
For IndiGo if they take on all the aircraft.

As others have pointed out, they will take them all but not necessarily operate all of them at the same time. So not a huge risk.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 46):
Airbus will ramp their airframes and will have no patience having to wait because engines were promised to Boeing...

As long as PW can pump out enough engines to take up the slack, it seems like CFM will see a dwindling share of A320neo sales. It will be very interesting to see how all those unannounced engine selections pan out.

rheinwaldner · Tue Aug 18, 2015 8:40 am

Quoting astuteman (Reply 23):
For now, at least, that gives the A32X NEO 56% of the market since the launch of the 737 MAX (3593 vs 2835).

Exclude the initial order rush for the NEO in comparisons is very unfair and nonsense.

india1 · Tue Aug 18, 2015 9:08 am

Quoting glideslope (Reply 36):
Given the safety record of India Based Airlines, and this being a Indian Based LCC let's pray it's not "belly up" literally.

Unnecessary, uniformed comment, dear Sir! Indigo have been consistently profitable and have an excellent track record of service & safety.

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