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KarelXWB
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Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 82

Tue Aug 18, 2015 11:32 am

Part 81 was getting too long with over 200 replies so I made a new thread to continue the discussion:

Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 81 (by American 767 Jul 2 2015 in Civil Aviation)

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TheRedBaron
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 82

Tue Aug 18, 2015 8:19 pm

Well we are now on part 82 of the never ending saga of this tragedy....a few remarks I want to make that were on the last thread.

I think the sole existence of some withheld info on the waypoints of Captain Z computer, either means that someone knows he is guilty of manslaughter and for some sinister reason the data is being withheld. Or the info is a red herring just to confuse investigative work and put the Blame on the pilots (most probably on Z).

The flapperon found is a 777 one but if my info is correct has not 100% linked to the missing plane but probability is VERY high.

The search Zone is not that far from where the tragedy happened due to the probability of the ocean currents on the flapperon. We still need a biology report on the barnacles to asses the place where it floated.

The satcom power means someone was using the plane hours after being lost and it just adds that data, Why How or the reason is incomprensible at this time.

After seeing for countless (well 82) threads on this flight, I think the baffling data, the weird, occurrences, point to a malfunction of the weirdest kind (one like Pihero was stating back in the threads number 14-20) and that the crew flew a crippled plane for hours, now that JAL 123 fateful anniversary happened I thought "what IF" and the real reasons of this sad disaster is very far from being conclusive other than presuming all dead.

TRB
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lancelot07
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 82

Tue Aug 18, 2015 8:49 pm

Quoting TheRedBaron (Reply 1):
I think the sole existence of some withheld info on the waypoints of Captain Z computer,

Nothing is known about withheld data from Captain Z's computer. This story may be pure invention by someonne who wants to make some money off this tragedy.

Quoting TheRedBaron (Reply 1):
The satcom power means someone was using the plane hours after being lost and it just adds that data

Actually, it is not hourS. The time span is somewhere in the reports, iirc it is about one hour or less.
 
Kevil
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 82

Tue Aug 18, 2015 9:11 pm

I am absolutely convinced the MH370 crashed in the South China Sea. The flaperon found on Reunion island could drifted there from the South China Sea trough Malacca strait. This correspond with the latest sea current simulations here ("Just look how much red color is around Reunion if you pick Christmas Island as a starting point compared to current search area.")

There is just one reliable eyewitness of burning object (plane ?) in the area where the signal of the MH370 transponder has been lost Mike McKay, oil rig worker, who sent an email to Vietnamese authorities about his sighting. Although Mike McKay is living in New Zealand he was neither contacted by ATSB to hear his evidence nor mentioned in the ATSB report.

Pings reception does not exclude the MH370 crashed in the South China Sea in the area of seventh ring (the same area mentioned by Mike McKay) where the plane or part of the wreckage with SATCOM transmitter could remain floating for some time.
 
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7BOEING7
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 82

Tue Aug 18, 2015 10:58 pm

Quoting Kevil (Reply 3):
Pings reception does not exclude the MH370 crashed in the South China Sea in the area of seventh ring (the same area mentioned by Mike McKay) where the plane or part of the wreckage with SATCOM transmitter could remain floating for some time.

The plane may have been floating but the SATCOM would not be transmitting, so?
 
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 82

Tue Aug 18, 2015 11:08 pm

Quoting 7BOEING7 (Reply 4):
The plane may have been floating but the SATCOM would not be transmitting, so?

And even if it had been floating and somehow powered and transmitting, it wouldn't explain the other pings.
 
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777Jet
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 82

Wed Aug 19, 2015 3:02 am

Quoting TheRedBaron (Reply 1):
I think the sole existence of some withheld info on the waypoints of Captain Z computer, either means that someone knows he is guilty of manslaughter and for some sinister reason the data is being withheld. Or the info is a red herring just to confuse investigative work and put the Blame on the pilots (most probably on Z).

IMHO the waypoints would either strengthen or weaken the Captain did it scenario, that is why I hoped they would be released.

If the waypoints strengthen the Captain did it scenario, then so be it - release them so it is known.

If the waypoints weaken the Captain did it scenario, then so be it - release them so it is known.

If the waypoints have nothing to do at all with the planes supposed flight route or SIO area where it is supposed to have ended up then I would love them to be released so that the waypoints can't be used to point to the Captain.

Some in the media, including Byron Bailey, link the waypoints / erased data / FBI all together in a way that IMHO attempts to strengthen the Captain did it scenario, that is why, I hope, if there is no relevance to the waypoints, they would be released so that they can't be used towards the Captain did it scenario.

If the release of the waypoint data would result in the waypoints not being able to point to the Captain then I hope they would be released for him / his family.

As I've always said, whilst I still think the Captain did it scenario ticks the most boxes, I don't really care what happened - like most of us - I just want the plane to be found and the cause to be known so improvements can be made.

Quoting Kevil (Reply 3):
I am absolutely convinced the MH370 crashed in the South China Sea. The flaperon found on Reunion island could drifted there from the South China Sea trough Malacca strait.

Wait until Nav30 reads this!  
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liquidair
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 82

Wed Aug 19, 2015 8:06 am

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 6):

I would think that had the captain been planning this all along, meticulously, then the home simulator would have been another thing he would have spoofed, a double red herring.

Of course, had the Malaysian government wanted to frame the captain as a nut job political opponent (with some dark personal secrets), I'm sure they would have- so far I've seen no such indication.
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777Jet
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 82

Thu Aug 20, 2015 12:08 am

Quoting liquidair (Reply 7):
Of course, had the Malaysian government wanted to frame the captain as a nut job political opponent (with some dark personal secrets), I'm sure they would have- so far I've seen no such indication.

Are you aware that not all governments, particularly in some parts of the world, would take the opportunity to score a few cheap political points if it meant admitting that one of their own citizens was responsible for such an act?

EgyptAir 990 is such an example - 'An Egyptian would never do something like this' - was the Egyptian Government's line despite the evidence. They were trying to protect the reputation of their own people. Whilst MH370 might have had been underpinned by politics and EgyptAir 990 was a different matter, the principle of not blaming one of you own in order to protect the reputation of your citizens / nationals is the same.

*If* the Malaysian Government believed or even knew that the Captain was responsible for causing MH370 to vanish and came out trying to discredit the opposition by linking / blaming him then IMHO it could damage the reputation of Malaysians and Malaysian Pilots. That would be the last thing Malaysia or MH would need.
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oxymorph
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 82

Thu Aug 20, 2015 4:28 am

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 8):
Are you aware that not all governments, particularly in some parts of the world, would take the opportunity to score a few cheap political points if it meant admitting that one of their own citizens was responsible for such an act?

They already made a very calculated decision that the risk/reward of blaming Z was on balance not in their best interest. Thus, the cover-up and subsequent behavior.

Unfortunately, for those despicable thugs, the stakes are now even higher and the walls are closing in. IF they are forced to finally lay culpability at his (Zaharie's) feet, the ensuing fallout will be nothing short of instability and quasi-anarchy. I just don't see this ending well for the regime,, but maybe they still have another card to play.

You see, once the finger is pointed, aside from all the other ramifications, the big question will be WHY. Why did this nice man do something so horrible? And believe you me, this is what Hishammuddin and Najib have been fearing all along.

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abba
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 82

Thu Aug 20, 2015 5:56 am

Quoting oxymorph (Reply 9):
They already made a very calculated decision that the risk/reward of blaming Z was on balance not in their best interest. Thus, the cover-up and subsequent behavior.

While 777Jet admits that he/she is speculating - which is ok - you come with yet another totally unfounded claim. You don't KNOW what the Malaysian government thought. That would require access to material that you will never see. You can SUSPECT/SPECULATE/BELIEVE but not claim to know.

Quoting oxymorph (Reply 9):
Unfortunately, for those despicable thugs, the stakes are now even higher and the walls are closing in. IF they are forced to finally lay culpability at his (Zaharie's) feet, the ensuing fallout will be nothing short of instability and quasi-anarchy. I just don't see this ending well for the regime,, but maybe they still have another card to play.

Completely unlikely. The Malaysian government MIGHT loose some goodwill in the general population, perhaps (I doubt it - few if any will care at all. They know that this has happened before in Singapore). The government might further discredit the opposition a little bit as they did with the sodomy trial of their former number two in Malaysia's political hierarchy, Anwar Ibrahim. But save for that....

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 8):
*If* the Malaysian Government believed or even knew that the Captain was responsible for causing MH370 to vanish and came out trying to discredit the opposition by linking / blaming him then IMHO it could damage the reputation of Malaysians and Malaysian Pilots. That would be the last thing Malaysia or MH would need.

That is not nice, certainly. Now they can blame Malaysian maintenance instead. I don't know if that is so much better....

To put it in another way: if they blame Z they can share the blame with the opposition (and even justify a certain berufsverbot when it comes to members and supporters of the opposition: "You never know what these people will be up to - just look at Z") . And I think that this is the reason why that have been hinting - as much as the lack of evidence allow - in the direction of Z without saying anything specific and letting it be up to peoples' own imagination to speculate as to a motive. If it is technical problem and thereby most likely maintenance failure then they have no one to share the blame with. They have to take the full load of blame on their own shoulders as they stand back as those who have not been showing due diligence.

To put it frankly. It is under all circumstances not good for neither HM nor Malaysia as such to loose their planes. That doesn't matter if they fly their plans into an unfriendly sky, their pilots committing suicide or their maintenance being sloppy. However, "the pilot did it" if the same pilot was a supporter of the opposition will allow the government to share the blame with others. And that might be why the government seems only to indirectly point at Z and not his co-pilot who would not fit that bill.

[Edited 2015-08-19 23:37:31] .

[Edited 2015-08-19 23:39:27]

[Edited 2015-08-19 23:40:25]
 
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TheFlyingDisk
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 82

Thu Aug 20, 2015 9:06 am

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 8):

*If* the Malaysian Government believed or even knew that the Captain was responsible for causing MH370 to vanish and came out trying to discredit the opposition by linking / blaming him then IMHO it could damage the reputation of Malaysians and Malaysian Pilots. That would be the last thing Malaysia or MH would need.

Nope. It gives the Malaysian government quick points against Anwar and his cohorts & help neutralize dissent against them so the small dent in the nation's reputation is something worth taking (and they've done so many times in the past - they charged Anwar with sodomy for god's sake, despite the fact that America & other Western country reacted strongly against it). Plus they can easily worm their way out of it by saying Zaharie's a bit loco in the head. In the Germanwings case, certainly Lufthansa's reputation, as well as German pilot's reputation did not suffer terribly when revelation of Lubitz's suicidal tendancies came about - heck, we've stopped talking about them now!

Quoting oxymorph (Reply 9):
They already made a very calculated decision that the risk/reward of blaming Z was on balance not in their best interest. Thus, the cover-up and subsequent behavior.

Utterly laughable. It is DEFINITELY IN THEIR BEST INTEREST to put the blame solely on Anwar, especially in light of what's happened in the months past. Seriously, they're probably kicking themselves for NOT exploiting the whole Zaharie-Anwar connection when they had a chance.

As for the "cover-up", it is nothing more a case of confusion added with ego. Before MH370 the worst accident to happen in Malaysian history occurred in 1977. All who handled that case are probably dead or retired (and just so you know, the Prime Minister at the time was Hishammuddin's father) and those who are currently handling the case had only theoretical know how but not the practical skills. Added to the fact that their theoretical knowledge is predicated on the fact that the wreck is not lost, which is not what's happening in this case, and you got a case of massive confusion.

Ironically the other MH crash is a textbook case of a cover up being attempted!

[Edited 2015-08-20 02:12:45]
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oxymorph
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 82

Thu Aug 20, 2015 12:14 pm

Quoting TheFlyingDisk (Reply 11):
. Plus they can easily worm their way out of it by saying Zaharie's a bit loco in the head.

No, they can't. 17 months and one FI later and nothing of the sort has been suggested. They would have to contradict their own 'laboriously' produced FI which stated that NO history of mental illness, recent or past, was detected.

Quoting TheFlyingDisk (Reply 11):
In the Germanwings case, certainly Lufthansa's reputation, as well as German pilot's reputation did not suffer terribly when revelation of Lubitz's suicidal tendancies came about

Terrible comparison. Completely different situations and motives...nice try.   

Quoting TheFlyingDisk (Reply 11):
As for the "cover-up", it is nothing more a case of confusion added with ego

And you know this how? Your feigned objectivity takes a big hit here with this contention. Bottom line: IF Z is the culpable actor (and he of course is), the cover up is anything but what you describe. Your neighbor Hishammuddin has known since the morning of the 8th that Zaharie stole the a/c. How could he not?   
 
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TheFlyingDisk
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 82

Thu Aug 20, 2015 1:11 pm

Quoting oxymorph (Reply 12):
No, they can't. 17 months and one FI later and nothing of the sort has been suggested. They would have to contradict their own 'laboriously' produced FI which stated that NO history of mental illness, recent or past, was detected.]

Of course they're not suggesting it - simply because they never wanted to in the first place. The Zaharie-Anwar connection wasn't even discovered by the local media, it was the Daily Mail from the UK, hardly a pro-Malaysian government news outlet now is it?

Fact is, if they had wanted to play the whole Zaharie-Anwar connection they'd played it, and played it hard. There's zero logic in them NOT doing anything and being coy about it. In fact, their reticence over this matter actually helped Zaharie if that's what he wanted in the first place as it brought a heap of bad press on the Malaysian government!


Quoting oxymorph (Reply 12):
And you know this how? Your feigned objectivity takes a big hit here with this contention. Bottom line: IF Z is the culpable actor (and he of course is), the cover up is anything but what you describe. Your neighbor Hishammuddin has known since the morning of the 8th that Zaharie stole the a/c. How could he not? ]


Unlike you, who probably gets his info about Malaysia from Wikipedia I am a Malaysian living in Malaysia & have dealt with Malaysian government bureaucracy from the lowest to director level. I can assure you, the higher up the bureaucracy you go, the bigger the ego. And the Malaysian government couldn't cover up a hole in the ground, let alone something as big as MH370. Take a look at Russia's attempt at covering up MH17 and you can see a big difference. I'm fairly certain that a lot of the actions of Malaysian officials are that of confused people who are too proud to request help when they know they're not able to handle the situation - especially Westerners. I've seen it many times before on a small scale & I saw it in the press conferences. It's something that locals are just too aware of but something that foreigners can't catch easily.

Your case for a cover up doesn't make even one logical sense despite having read almost all of the 82 long and laborious threads on this matter. And your brusque manner have driven many knowledgable posters away thus depriving us of any intelligent debate. The only reason I'm here is just to correct the many repeated misinformation you've posted over and over again. I'm willing to admit that Zaharie may have perpetrated mass murder, but I am not going to throw a dead man under the bus unless there is conclusive proof (even if he was an Anwar supporter, whom I never was fond of). And your own proof are flimsy to say the least.

Call me a shill if you like, but my conscience is clear. I am nobody's paid troll.
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777Jet
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 82

Thu Aug 20, 2015 1:43 pm

Quoting abba (Reply 10):
While 777Jet admits that he/she is speculating - which is ok

For the record 777JET is a 'he'  
Quoting abba (Reply 10):
And that might be why the government seems only to indirectly point at Z and not his co-pilot who would not fit that bill.

It wouldn't look good for the government / ruling party if they tried to blame the FO given that his father is some kind of 'government official'.

Quoting TheFlyingDisk (Reply 11):
In the Germanwings case, certainly Lufthansa's reputation, as well as German pilot's reputation did not suffer terribly when revelation of Lubitz's suicidal tendancies came about - heck, we've stopped talking about them now!

Maybe because the German / French authorities came out telling the truth and were open and transparent from the very beginning, unlike the Malaysians who have told lies as well as done a good job at obfuscating any information relating to MH370.

I don't want to use the term 'culture' because some will call me a racist and whatever other terms float their boat, but pilot suicide cases are be handled differently in different parts of the world.

Some nations / cultures have no problem accepting the truth, but others can't seem to accept what one of their own people's could be capable of -(again, EgyptAir 990 is an example, as well as SilkAir 185).

Quoting TheFlyingDisk (Reply 11):
It is DEFINITELY IN THEIR BEST INTEREST to put the blame solely on Anwar

They can't put the blame solely on Anawr because Anwar was not in the cockpit, but it wouldn't surprise me if the current circus mob tried  
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abba
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 82

Thu Aug 20, 2015 1:44 pm

Quoting TheFlyingDisk (Reply 13):
Fact is, if they had wanted to play the whole Zaharie-Anwar connection they'd played it, and played it hard. There's zero logic in them NOT doing anything and being coy about it. In fact, their reticence over this matter actually helped Zaharie if that's what he wanted in the first place as it brought a heap of bad press on the Malaysian government!

Spot on!

Quoting TheFlyingDisk (Reply 13):
Unlike you, who probably gets his info about Malaysia from Wikipedia I am a Malaysian living in Malaysia & have dealt with Malaysian government bureaucracy from the lowest to director level. I can assure you, the higher up the bureaucracy you go, the bigger the ego. And the Malaysian government couldn't cover up a hole in the ground, let alone something as big as MH370. Take a look at Russia's attempt at covering up MH17 and you can see a big difference. I'm fairly certain that a lot of the actions of Malaysian officials are that of confused people who are too proud to request help when they know they're not able to handle the situation - especially Westerners. I've seen it many times before on a small scale & I saw it in the press conferences. It's something that locals are just too aware of but something that foreigners can't catch easily.

Having lived in the region for a long period of my life and worked closely with Malay people (some of whom to this day is among my closest friends) I think you are spot on here. And of cause you know much better than I!

Quoting TheFlyingDisk (Reply 13):
The only reason I'm here is just to correct the many repeated misinformation you've posted over and over again. I'm willing to admit that Zaharie may have perpetrated mass murder, but I am not going to throw a dead man under the bus unless there is conclusive proof (even if he was an Anwar supporter, whom I never was fond of). And your own proof are flimsy to say the least.

Now, you know the situation much better than I, but if Zaharie as many reports suggest was at least a religious skeptic - if not a downright atheist - I find it very difficult to believe that he should be so attached to a religious politician such as Anwar that he would commit suicide in his support....
If he did it, he might have had a rather different reason, I believe.
 
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TheRedBaron
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 82

Thu Aug 20, 2015 1:58 pm

Quoting TheFlyingDisk (Reply 13):
Unlike you, who probably gets his info about Malaysia from Wikipedia I am a Malaysian living in Malaysia & have dealt with Malaysian government bureaucracy from the lowest to director level. I can assure you, the higher up the bureaucracy you go, the bigger the ego. And the Malaysian government couldn't cover up a hole in the ground, let alone something as big as MH370. Take a look at Russia's attempt at covering up MH17 and you can see a big difference. I'm fairly certain that a lot of the actions of Malaysian officials are that of confused people who are too proud to request help when they know they're not able to handle the situation - especially Westerners. I've seen it many times before on a small scale & I saw it in the press conferences. It's something that locals are just too aware of but something that foreigners can't catch easily.

Your case for a cover up doesn't make even one logical sense despite having read almost all of the 82 long and laborious threads on this matter. And your brusque manner have driven many knowledgable posters away thus depriving us of any intelligent debate. The only reason I'm here is just to correct the many repeated misinformation you've posted over and over again. I'm willing to admit that Zaharie may have perpetrated mass murder, but I am not going to throw a dead man under the bus unless there is conclusive proof (even if he was an Anwar supporter, whom I never was fond of). And your own proof are flimsy to say the least.

        

Many thanks for this excellent post. I know sometimes is very difficult to explain the idiosyncrasies of our cultures and nationalities, in these events. THANKS.

TRB
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TheFlyingDisk
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 82

Thu Aug 20, 2015 2:02 pm

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 14):
Maybe because the German / French authorities came out telling the truth and were open and transparent from the very beginning, unlike the Malaysians who have told lies as well as done a good job at obfuscating any information relating to MH370.

Do you mind pointing out the lies then?

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 14):
It wouldn't look good for the government / ruling party if they tried to blame the FO given that his father is some kind of 'government official'.

Actually, they could have blamed the FO if they wanted to & not gotten any slack - Fariq's father is a high ranking civil servant in the state of Selangor, which is actually governed by Anwar's coalition.

Furthermore I have here a Malay news report by The Malaysian Insider about Fariq's father (you can Google Translate it http://www.themalaysianinsider.com/b...g-mh370-rasa-anaknya-masih-hidup). What I want to highlight is the picture accompanying the report below & its caption which I've translated for your reference

Big version: Width: 673 Height: 491 File size: 495kb


Quote:
The Chief Minister of Kelantan, Datuk Ahmad Yakub (right) with his deputy, Datuk Mohamad Amar Nik Abdullah visited the father of the MAS co-pilot of flight MH370, Abdul Hamid Mohd Daud in Shah Alam, today

This picture is important because of two things - that is
a) The state of Kelantan is ruled by the Islamic Party of Malaysia, which at the time of MH370's loss was part of Anwar's coalition. Just for the info of those who are not aware of Malaysia's political scene - Anwar's People's Coalition controls 3 major states in Malaysia, Selangor (which is the state surrounding the country's capital Kuala Lumpur & where KUL is actually located), Penang & Kelantan (which is one of the states close to the Thai border & is actually not far from IGARI, where the plane's final contact was received).
b) Fariq's father was the ONLY ONE who received this visit from the Kelantan Chief Minister.

Now Chief Ministers in Malaysia don't go out of their way to visit people who are not allied with them (sad but true fact), so it can only mean one thing really - Fariq's father has ties with the Islamic party.

[Edited 2015-08-20 07:41:17]
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TheFlyingDisk
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 82

Thu Aug 20, 2015 2:11 pm

Quoting abba (Reply 15):
Now, you know the situation much better than I, but if Zaharie as many reports suggest was at least a religious skeptic - if not a downright atheist - I find it very difficult to believe that he should be so attached to a religious politician such as Anwar that he would commit suicide in his support....

To be honest with you, I really don't think he really is an atheist. The supposition that he's an atheist came from his YouTube history I believe but then we can watch anything we want on YouTube and it don't mean much. However, Anwar nowadays is not as religious as he was during his early days. His party now holds support from the liberal professional Malaysians - so it's not really surprising
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777Jet
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 82

Thu Aug 20, 2015 2:21 pm

Quoting TheFlyingDisk (Reply 17):
Do you mind pointing out the lies then?

Refer back to the following:

Quoting TheFlyingDisk (Reply 13):
despite having read almost all of the 82 long and laborious threads on this matter.

as well as media coverage on MH370.

That the plane was not detected and then was detected by radar was one of the good ones.

I could keep going on but you said you have read all of the threads so you know about the lies and obfuscation.

Or, are you happy to just call a complete reverse / change in story a mistake rather than a lie?

Anyway, I appreciate your effort and contributions. It's good to hear the perspective of a Malaysian, but, FWIW, I'm still not convinced (where have we heard that before) on your point that the government would indeed take the chance to fully blame Anwar through the link to Z.

[Edited 2015-08-20 07:22:23]
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enzo011
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 82

Thu Aug 20, 2015 2:31 pm

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 19):
I could keep going on but you said you have read all of the threads so you know about the lies and obfuscation.

Or, are you happy to just call a complete reverse / change in story a mistake rather than a lie?

Anyway, I appreciate your effort and contributions. It's good to hear the perspective of a Malaysian, but, FWIW, I'm still not convinced (where have we heard that before) on your point that the government would indeed take the chance to fully blame Anwar through the link to Z.

I haven't read all of the pages, could you please bring list the lies from the Government?
 
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777Jet
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 82

Thu Aug 20, 2015 2:43 pm

Quoting enzo011 (Reply 20):
I haven't read all of the pages

TheFlyingDisk has according to their comment, and my reply was to that user.

Quoting enzo011 (Reply 20):
could you please bring list the lies from the Government?

I am not going to spoon feed you information that google could dish up in a matter of seconds.

Here is one result:

http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalk...-underlines-early-government-lies/


Select quote:


""But the new factual information report does lay out what Malaysia’s military radar saw of the diversion of the intended flight path of MH370 with a level of clarity and unambiguity that points directly to the inexplicable lying by the government early in the story that it hadn’t seen any such thing.

The authorities segued toward the truth by eventually saying it was possible that something had been seen, and then saying that having shown the data to the US NTSB as it did, it had been told there was something there that merited closer examination.

After that it repudiated its earlier lies and seemed to think that somehow everyone would forget about it.

Among the liars was the acting Minister for transport, Hishammuddin Hussein, but who seemed to forget what he was saying back in March 2014 when on 1 May last year has posted a Facebook entry saying that cabinet knew on the morning of the flight’s disappearance the military had seen MH370 cross the Malay Peninsula after its transponders went off line rendering the flight invisible to civil air traffic control radars.

Yet 12 days later, on March 20, he was still insisting that the northern hemisphere and southern hemisphere “arcs” were search areas of equal importance.

That was a serious, material and damaging deception. It spread the assets available at short notice for the search much wider than they should have been. But Why? This was as compellingly dishonest as the PM of Malaysia, Najib Razak, urging that search assets be sent deeper into the South China Sea and further north into Asia, when all along he knew what his military knew.""



You can find plenty of articles, plenty, on the various lies if you just try...
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TheFlyingDisk
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 82

Thu Aug 20, 2015 3:21 pm

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 19):
That the plane was not detected and then was detected by radar was one of the good ones.

Do you mean by this - http://www.themalaysianinsider.com/m...alacca-strait#sthash.YYl7Zzm8.dpuf

Quote:
As the search for the missing flight MH370 continues for the fifth straight day, Malaysia's air force chief has denied saying military radar had tracked the lost passenger jet turning back and flying to the Strait of Malacca.

The pro-government Berita Harian daily had quoted General Tan Sri Rodzali Daud (pic) as saying military radar at the Butterworth air force base believed it was tracking the Boeing 777-200ER jet until it disappeared at 2.40am last Saturday. "I wish to state that I did not make any such statements as above. What occurred was that the Berita Harian journalist asked me if such an incident occurred as detailed in their story. However, I did not give any answer to the question.

"Instead, what I said to the journalist was, 'Please refer to the statement which I made on 9 March 2014, during the press conference with the Chief of Defence Forces at the Sama-Sama Hotel, Kuala Lumpur International Airport'," the Royal Malaysian Air Force (RMAF) chief said in a statement late last night.

You should refer to this, his press conference on 9 March - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bld55A5V-9A. Technically he did tell the truth, he did not confirm that they've tracked the plane on radar but instead stated there is a possibility that the plane had turned back & they're checking the radar tapes. Remember, this is during the early days of the crisis & information was clearly fragmented.

And on March 12, they confirmed that they've found some indication that there is an unidentified radar plot. Here's the explanation - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1RcUXvwB_8Q

The chiefs may not have communicated well enough but I've found no evidence that they've lied or obfuscated anything.

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 21):
Among the liars was the acting Minister for transport, Hishammuddin Hussein, but who seemed to forget what he was saying back in March 2014 when on 1 May last year has posted a Facebook entry saying that cabinet knew on the morning of the flight’s disappearance the military had seen MH370 cross the Malay Peninsula after its transponders went off line rendering the flight invisible to civil air traffic control radars.

Which is corroborated with RMAF Chief's press conference on the 9th - there is a POSSIBILITY that the plane turned back, but they're not certain.

Funny thing is - you don't believe them when they took a long time to confirm the radar tracks, but when the announcement from the Prime Minister came that the flaperon was indeed from MH370, before the French finished their analysis you don't believe them either.

So what's next?

[Edited 2015-08-20 08:27:22]

[Edited 2015-08-20 08:29:03]
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gzm
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 82

Thu Aug 20, 2015 4:16 pm

The truth will eventually come from the French who have every reason to be impartial. Can you imagine what would happen if the flaperon had been found on a Malaysian coast? We might never get to know about it......
 
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 82

Thu Aug 20, 2015 6:35 pm

Quoting TheFlyingDisk (Reply 17):
Actually, they could have blamed the FO if they wanted to & not gotten any slack - Fariq's father is a high ranking civil servant in the state of Selangor, which is actually governed by Anwar's coalition.

ah - so it must be him who got so p**** of by the Anwar verdict  
Quoting TheFlyingDisk (Reply 18):
His party now holds support from the liberal professional Malaysians - so it's not really surprising

Which is not surprising, though. Recent studies of the Muslim revival movement in Malaysia - something Anwar at least in the past was very much at the center of with his chairmanship of Muslim youth organisations - actually had/has a strong appeal to young Malay people with a background in the traditional rural Islam of the country side who went to the cities where they became educated and thereby needed a fresh expression of their tradition that fit their new life situation. Personally I have met quite a few Malaysians who fit that bill rather well. They are well educated professionals and strong reformed Muslims - and their wives are often well educated, have good jobs - and were a scarf (which was not common among Muslims in this part of the world traditionally. At the days of Anwar's position as the right hand of Mahathier they were often seen on posters together and often with their wives. On these posters Mahathir's wife we rarely covered. Anwar's were always).

Quoting TheFlyingDisk (Reply 18):
The supposition that he's an atheist came from his YouTube history I believe but then we can watch anything we want on YouTube and it don't mean much.

I think a number of Facebook quotations also played a role here.
 
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777Jet
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 82

Fri Aug 21, 2015 12:51 am

Quoting TheFlyingDisk (Reply 22):
Technically he did tell the truth

"Technically" - LOL

Quoting TheFlyingDisk (Reply 22):
The chiefs may not have communicated well enough but I've found no evidence that they've lied or obfuscated anything.

About what I'd expect from you.

Quoting TheFlyingDisk (Reply 22):
Funny thing is - you don't believe them when they took a long time to confirm the radar tracks, but when the announcement from the Prime Minister came that the flaperon was indeed from MH370, before the French finished their analysis you don't believe them either.

I believed what was said about the flaperon only after it came from the French, not from Razak who was clearly trying to gain some face and regain some much needed credibility by being the first to break this news - the way Razak confirmed the flaperon before the investigative authorities was discussed in one of the last two threads.

It was pretty obvious what that flaperon was going to be from after it was confirmed to be from a 777 regardless.
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 82

Fri Aug 21, 2015 1:33 am

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 25):
"Technically" - LOL

Well - did he lie or did he not lie? Read the statement in the article, "technically" is correct in this case. He didn't lie.

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 25):
About what I'd expect from you.


Given what I've linked - did they lie? No. They admitted the possibility that the plane had turned back on the 2nd day but required confirmation. Don't forget, primary radar data is not easily identifiable so they do require time to confirm that the track is from MH370. They may be 80% sure, but they're wary to commit simply because their backside's on the line if they got it wrong, but they've never taken any active step to actively obfuscate anything!

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 25):
I believed what was said about the flaperon only after it came from the French, not from Razak who was clearly trying to gain some face and regain some much needed credibility by being the first to break this news - the way Razak confirmed the flaperon before the investigative authorities was discussed in one of the last two threads.

It was pretty obvious what that flaperon was going to be from after it was confirmed to be from a 777 regardless.

First of all Razak is Najib's father so if you want to refer to him, call him Najib.

Secondly the Minister of Transport, Liow Tiong Lai explained that MH engineers on the Malaysian team - who WORKED on the plane and would definitely know the bits & pieces of the 777 - are totally certain that the flaperon came from 9M-MRO based on seal markings on the flaperon which matches MH maintenance records. Now, are you saying MH engineers are not credible enough?

It's fairly obvious as to why the Malaysian government chose to announce quickly - the flap they had with the radar data! They took time to verify & was flayed by the Western press. They don't want to repeat that experience again.

CNN's Andrew Stevens sat with Liow Tiong Lai - http://edition.cnn.com/videos/world/...o/playlists/malaysia-flight-mh370/

[Edited 2015-08-20 18:37:28]

[Edited 2015-08-20 18:39:50]
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777Jet
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 82

Fri Aug 21, 2015 1:52 am

Quoting TheFlyingDisk (Reply 26):
Well - did he lie or did he not lie?

Yes. He lied.

Quoting TheFlyingDisk (Reply 26):
Given what I've linked - did they lie?

Yes. They lied.

Quoting TheFlyingDisk (Reply 26):
but they've never taken any active step to actively obfuscate anything!

"active step to actively obfuscate" - LOL. LOL again...

They might not have taken ""any active step to actively obfuscate anything"", but they obfuscated things nonetheless.

You sound like a politician!

Quoting TheFlyingDisk (Reply 26):
Now, are you saying MH engineers are not credible enough?

Before Malaysia's handling of MH370 from about day 2 I would have said that MH engineers could be considered as a credible source, but at this point in time I consider no source in Malaysia to be a credible source on MH370 matters.

Quoting TheFlyingDisk (Reply 13):
I am nobody's paid troll.

Is that a lie?  
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 82

Fri Aug 21, 2015 2:16 am

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 27):


Have you ever heard of the fog of war concept? This is a clear case of that. Very clear, if you look from the press conferences. The fragmented information from many sources (I remember all the rumours flying on the first few days about the plane landing in Nanning, the plane's wreckage found in the South China Sea etc etc. If a person not under pressure like myself had trouble making sense of all the info, how would you think someone under immense pressure like those officials would handle this?), government officials who are not used to the grilling of Western presses as well as conversing in English with almost native-like precision & unclear chain of command (the first day's Press Conference was all over the place - you have the Director General of the Department of Civil Aviation, the head of the Immigration department & the police chief all vying for microphone time). It's a recipe for mass confusion amplified several times over thanks to the global coverage.

Take a long hard look at the press conference video - in fact all the press conference videos from day one. It's something that many journalists like Ben Sandliands did not do when writing their opinion pieces (not to mention the fact that a lot of the little cultural nuances were easily missed because they couldn't be bothered to learn them).
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 82

Fri Aug 21, 2015 2:41 am

Quoting TheFlyingDisk (Reply 26):
They took time to verify & was flayed by the Western press.
Quoting TheFlyingDisk (Reply 28):
government officials who are not used to the grilling of Western presses as well as conversing in English with almost native-like precision

Blame the West and the Western Press for the lies then!

BTW - sorry if I forgot, but what do you think happened to MH370?

Have a nice day, I'm going to work now.
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 82

Fri Aug 21, 2015 3:00 am

Anyone who believes Flying Disk's claims that Malaysia has neither lied nor purposefully obfuscated need only look at this interview with the former Minister of Transport and current Minister of Defense, one Datuk Seri Hishammuddin. This interview provides unimpeachable, direct examples of lies and obfuscations by Mr. Hishammuddin.

It is laughable that Flying Disk can make such claims.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2XQPCwY5SHk
 
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 82

Fri Aug 21, 2015 3:22 am

Quoting oxymorph (Reply 30):

This whole interview is laughable. It's nothing but a show of bravado against the incessant Western media by a man who's frustrated, angry & highly pressured and it shows right from the start when he asked "Does it matter?" when the interviewer prodded as to what time did he know MH370 was missing. It's a trap that Hishammuddin stupidly fallen into (given the lack of experience dealing with a combative media it is no surprise), but it doesn't move my beliefs as it is based on the acts in the first few days of the crisis which you can see through the press conferences. From those press conferences it's clear that there has never been a concerted attempt to obfuscate & cover any deficiencies.

Have you ever snapped at someone who had annoyed you so much? This is an example of one.

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 29):
Blame the West and the Western Press for the lies then!

I'm not dumb to fall for that trap.
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oxymorph
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 82

Fri Aug 21, 2015 3:46 am

Flying Disk:

Although Hishammuddin says he is SURE that KLATC attempted to contact MH370 that morning (he says this after 2+ months of understanding what happened), we now know that KLATC NEVER TRIED EVEN ONCE to contact the a/c.

We also know that they knew the 'unidentified' a/c was identified (oh, the irony) as being from Malaysian airspace and also deemed as non-hostile.

How is it then possible that KLATC NEVER tried to contact the aircraft?? This just boggles the mind. How in the world could they not have tried?
 
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 82

Fri Aug 21, 2015 3:47 am

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 6):
As I've always said, whilst I still think the Captain did it scenario ticks the most boxes, I don't really care what happened - like most of us - I just want the plane to be found and the cause to be known so improvements can be made.

I appreciate that mindset.

Quoting TheFlyingDisk (Reply 13):
I am not going to throw a dead man under the bus unless there is conclusive proof

I only wish everyone had the same level of human decency as you!
 
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TheFlyingDisk
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 82

Fri Aug 21, 2015 3:50 am

Quoting oxymorph (Reply 32):
Although Hishammuddin says he is SURE that KLATC attempted to contact MH370 that morning (he says this after 2+ months of understanding what happened), we now know that KLATC NEVER TRIED EVEN ONCE to contact the a/c.

Didn't KLATC attempted to contact MH370 through aircraft relay of the other MH aircraft in the vicinity? Didn't they try to get MH to contact MH370 via ACARS & satphone? I distinctively recall reading that in the Interim Report.

Wouldn't you call that an attempt to contact MH370?
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oxymorph
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 82

Fri Aug 21, 2015 4:05 am

My question, again, is why KLATC NEVER tried to contact MH370 directly? This seems to be a straightforward question, and, one would think, the first thing to be done given that MH370 disappeared at handoff and that HCMATC queried KLATC about the aircrafts whereabouts.

So why would they not have even attempted to contact the aircraft themselves? Hint: They were ordered to 'stand down'.

[Edited 2015-08-20 21:06:46]
 
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TheFlyingDisk
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 82

Fri Aug 21, 2015 4:26 am

Quoting oxymorph (Reply 35):

My question, again, is why KLATC NEVER tried to contact MH370 directly? This seems to be a straightforward question, and, one would think, the first thing to be done given that MH370 disappeared at handoff and that HCMATC queried KLATC about the it's whereabouts.

So why would they not have even attempted to contact the aircraft themselves? Hint: They were ordered to 'stand down'.

They handed MH370 off to Ho Chi Minh ATC at 1.19 am, Malaysian time. So what about the contact attempt at 1.41 am Malaysian time as per the factual report?

Quote:

1741:23 UTC
0141:23 MYT]
Lumpur Radar Malaysian Three Seven Zero Lumpur Radar how do
you read, do you read.

And why didn't they try again and again? Well look at the traffic they had to handle that night. Plus this:

Quote:

1804:39 UTC
[0204:39 MYT]
KL ATCC Okay reference to the… company Malaysian
Airlines the aircraft is still flying is over somewhere
over Cambodia

1804:50 UTC
[0204:50 MYT]
HCM ATCC Somewhere over Cambodia.

1804:51 UTC
[0204:51 MYT]
KL ATCC Affirm.

1804:52 UTC
[0204:52 MYT]
HCM ATCC That's mean not enter our FIR.

1804:58 UTC
[0204:58 MYT]
KL ATCC Okay I am not very sure about that but daa… this is
what the airlines represent MAS said that the aircraft …

1805:05 UTC
[0205:05 MYT]
HCM ATCC Okay okay let me check with Cambodia.

1805:08 UTC
[0205:08 MYT]
KL ATCC Yeap please check with Cambodia please.

1805:09 UTC
[0205:09 MYT]
HCM ATCC Yeah.

1805:10 UTC
[0205:10 MYT]
KL ATCC Okay and call me back.


So they've contacted MH Operations at KUL & MH staff confirmed that they're still tracking 9M-MRO. So they relaxed and got back to handling the traffic, assuming that this is nothing more than a radio issue.

But when HCMC ATC got back & confirmed that neither them nor Cambodia had been able to make contact, that was when the worry started - but by that time they assumed (given that MH Ops said the plane is in Cambodian airspace), they'd be out of contact.

What's the range of VHF radio anyway?

Quote:

1833:59 UTC
[0233:59 MYT]
MAS Operations Helo.

1834:00 UTC
0234:00 MYT
KL ATCC Okay aah… helo good good mor morning.

1834:02 UTC
[0234:02 MYT]
MAS Operations Yeah yeah.
1834:03 UTC
[0234:03 MYT]
KL ATCC Calling from Subang Centre lah.

1834:06 UTC
[0234:06 MYT]
MAS Operations err… ya.

1834:07 UTC
[0234:07 MYT]
KL ATCC This is MAS Operations is it.

1834:09 UTC
[0234:09 MYT]
MAS Operations Ya ya

1834:10 UTC
[0234:10 MYT]
KL ATCC Okay err…. regarding your Malaysian Three Seven Zero.

1834:13 UTC
[0234:13 MYT]
MAS Operations Herha.

1834:14 UTC
[0234:14 MYT]
KL ATCC Ho Chi Minh said still negative contact.

1834:17 UTC
[0234:17 MYT]
MAS Operations Haa.

1834:17 UTC
[0234:17 MYT]
KL ATCC And the no radar target at all.

1834:20 UTC
[0234:20 MYT]
MAS Operations Okay.

1834:21 UTC
[0234:21 MYT]
KL ATCC But earlier we checked with MAS I think your side
somebody said that the aircraft still flying and you
already send signal to the aircraft.

1834:29 UTC
[0234:29 MYT]
MAS Operations Ya.

1834:30 UTC
[0234:30 MYT]
KL ATCC Okay and daa… what is daa… I mean did they reply to
you or not.

1834:34 UTC
[0234:34 MYT]
MAS Operations No no no they never reply.

1834:36 UTC
[0234:36 MYT]
KL ATCC Malaysian Three Seven Zero.

1834:37 UTC
[0234:37 MYT]
MAS Operations Hmm ya.

1834:38 UTC
[0234:38 MYT]
KL ATCC But daa…how do you know that they ooo…ya…

1834:41 UTC
[0234:41 MYT]
MAS Operations Because of the…. message went through successfully.

1834:44 UTC
[0234:44 MYT]
KL ATCC Successfully went through.

1834:45 UTC
[0234:45 MYT]
MAS Operations Aaa…

1834:46 UTC
[0234:46 MYT]
KL ATCC Okay amm…. can you I mean is there (xxx) [illegble] any
possible for the aircraft to answer you.

1834:53 UTC
[0234:53 MYT]
MAS Operations Eer…

1834:54 UTC
[0234:54 MYT]
KL ATCC Anyway aircraft can answer you.

1834:58 UTC
[0234:58 MYT]
MAS Operations Do know daa…. You have to try the SATCOM la sir

1835:02 UTC
[0235:02 MYT]
MAS Operations Will try the SATCOM and see.

1835:03 UTC
[0235:03 MYT]
KL ATCC Okay.

1835:05 UTC
[0235:05 MYT]
KL ATCC Hah hah see whether they can I am sure whether the
position or whether they contact with anyone and the
estimate for landing or anything.

1835:13 UTC
[0235:13 MYT]
MAS Operations Okay.

1835:14 UTC
[0235:14 MYT]
KL ATCC Okay and daa okay daa because da Ho Chi Minh
still worry because they have eercompletely no contact
at all either radio or radar.

1835:26 UTC
[0235:26 MYT]
MAS Operations Okay.

1835:27 UTC
[0235:27 MYT]
KL ATCC Okay so.

1835:29 UTC
[0235:29 MYT]
MAS Operations Can fax them the…because is still down loading the…..
aircraft movement.

1835:35 UTC
[0235:35 MYT]
KL ATCC Ah huh.

1835:36 UTC
[0235:36 MYT]
MAS Operations Aircraft still sending the … movement message.

1835:38 UTC
[0235:38 MYT]
KL ATCC Okay.

1835:39 UTC
[0235:39 MYT]
MAS Operations Positioning message.

1835:40 UTC
[0235:40 MYT]
KL ATCC Positioning message okay okay aah….

1835:43 UTC
[0235:43 MYT]
MAS Operations Roughly aaa… somewhere Vietnam.

1835:46 UTC
[0235:46 MYT]
KL ATCC Okay can you tell what is the last position aircraft
passed now.

1835:52 UTC
[0235:52 MYT]
MAS Operations Is the last position was eer…Lat Long fourteen fourteen
point nine zero zero zero zero.

1836:06 UTC
[0236:06 MYT]
KL ATCC Eer… say again please.

1836:07 UTC
[0236:07 MYT]
MAS Operations Eer… Latitude is fourteen point nine eer….

1836:11 UTC
[0236:11 MYT]
KL ATCC eeh eeh

1836:15 UTC
[0236:15 MYT]
KL ATCC Four, four time zero.

1836:16 UTC
[0236:16 MYT]
MAS Operations Yeah.

1836:18 UTC
[0236:18 MYT]
KL ATCC Okay.

1836:19 UTC
[0236:19 MYT]
MAS Operations Longtitude is one zero niner.

1836:22 UTC
[0236:22 MYT]
KL ATCC One zero nine.

1836:24 UTC
[0236:24 MYT]
MAS Operations One five five zero zero.

1836:25 UTC
[0236:25 MYT]
KL ATCC One five zero zero at what time please.

1836:28 UTC
[0236:28 MYT]
MAS Operations At one eight three three five six.

1836:30 UTC
[0236:30 MYT]
KL ATCC One eight three three huh.

1836:32 UTC
[0236:32 MYT]
MAS Operations Auh.

1836:32 UTC
[0236:32 MYT]
KL ATCC Okay this is the position aircraft passed by one eight
three three uh.

1836:36 UTC
[0236:36 MYT]
MAS Operations Huh

1836:37 UTC
[0236:37 MYT]
KL ATCC Okay aah… this one let them call okay and daaadvise
okay you try to raise the aircraft and then like aah… I
mean to reply you whether they are eer… contact any
of the ATC unit along unit or not.

1836:55 UTC
[0236:55 MYT]
MAS Operations Alright.

1836:56 UTC
[0236:56 MYT]
KL ATCC Okay please thank you.

It's rather long and I have other things to do now but I do urge you to read the factual report - http://mh370.mot.gov.my/download/FactualInformation.pdf
I FLY KLM+ALASKA+QATAR+MALAYSIA+AIRASIA+MALINDO
 
oxymorph
Posts: 177
Joined: Fri Oct 31, 2014 10:57 pm

RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 82

Fri Aug 21, 2015 4:58 am

Quoting TheFlyingDisk (Reply 36):
They handed MH370 off to Ho Chi Minh ATC at 1.19 am, Malaysian time. So what about the contact attempt at 1.41 am Malaysian time as per the factual report?

Uhm here's what the factual report says about the actions of KLATCC after handoff:

1.1.2 Activities by Ground Air Traffic Controllers Thereafter
At 1739:06 UTC [0139:06 MYT] HCM ATCC queried KL ATCC on the whereabouts of
MH370.
Thereafter KL ATCC initiated efforts involving MAS Operations Centre, Hong Kong ATC
(China) and Phnom Penh (Cambodia) ATC in an attempt to establish the location of MH370.
No contact had been established by any of the ATC units.
The Kuala Lumpur Rescue Coordination Centre (KL RCC) was activated at 2232 UTC [0632
MYT].

Perhaps you can better point me to where in the FI you found this 1:41 transmission? It certainly isn't in section 1.1.2--which is titled (see above): ACTIVITIES BY GROUND AIR TRAFFIC CONTROLLERS THEREAFTER.
 
mandala499
Posts: 6592
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2001 8:47 pm

RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 82

Fri Aug 21, 2015 5:17 am

Quoting oxymorph (Reply 37):
Perhaps you can better point me to where in the FI you found this 1:41 transmission? It certainly isn't in section 1.1.2--which is titled (see above): ACTIVITIES BY GROUND AIR TRAFFIC CONTROLLERS THEREAFTER.

Try:
"1.18.1.4 KL ATCC Duty Shift System for Air Traffic Controllers"
Page 97:
At 1741:23 UTC [0141:23 MYT] KL ATCC radar controller made a “blind transmission” to MH370.

What TheFlyingDisk put was probably on Appendix 1.18F page 3 of 125.
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
oxymorph
Posts: 177
Joined: Fri Oct 31, 2014 10:57 pm

RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 82

Fri Aug 21, 2015 5:21 am

Okay, I see the one 'blind attempt' at 17:41. It's in section 1.18, Regardless, and regardless of purported VHF range, it is problematic that KLATCC made only one attempt. Meanwhile, HCM made numerous' attempts and were clearly taking the matter much more seriously.

As for 'Cambodia' and MH, I'm not dumb to fall for that trap.   

And how is that criminal investigation getting on? Let me guess...it appears to be at a standstill. This disappearance is just sooo unprecedented and perplexing.
 
abba
Posts: 1385
Joined: Mon Jun 06, 2005 12:08 pm

RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 82

Fri Aug 21, 2015 5:53 am

Quoting TheFlyingDisk (Reply 28):
It's a recipe for mass confusion amplified several times over thanks to the global coverage.
Quoting 777Jet (Reply 29):
Blame the West and the Western Press for the lies then!
Quoting TheFlyingDisk (Reply 31):
I'm not dumb to fall for that trap.

No you are not. You are giving a very precise and quite objective analysis of what happens in the encounter between Malaysian government officials (and the same would apply to most other Asian governments IMHO) and the Western press. It is not a question of blaming someone; but to understand what happens when two very different mindset that do not understand each other meet. Surely the Malaysian side do not understand and know how to handle the Western Press. Equally, the Western Press do not know how to deal with Malaysian officials and, therefore, handle them as if they were back in Europe or the US. Most of them, properly, has just been flown in from abroad with little if any understanding of the context where they were to work. And being the rulers of the world they are, non of them speaks a single word of any of the many local languages of Malaysia. So even if the entire encounter is taking plane physically in Malaysia, linguistically and culturally it all happens in the US. What we get is what we see: bad journalism and a government that appears untrustworthy.
 
mandala499
Posts: 6592
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2001 8:47 pm

RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 82

Fri Aug 21, 2015 1:41 pm

Quoting oxymorph (Reply 39):
Okay, I see the one 'blind attempt' at 17:41. It's in section 1.18, Regardless, and regardless of purported VHF range, it is problematic that KLATCC made only one attempt. Meanwhile, HCM made numerous' attempts and were clearly taking the matter much more seriously.

HCM should make numerous attempts because it was supposed to go into their airspace.
With KLATCC, 1 attempt isn't surprising, but the question is, did they at the time knew the plane turned back? (let's not use the 20/20 hindsight) If they didn't, 1 attempt is acceptable since the aircraft acknowledged the hand off. If they did, then yes, it's a huge slap on KLATCC. I mean... MASSIVE!   

RMAF caught sleeping... why didn't they notify KLATCC or tried to raise the aircraft on the frequency for the sector or at 121.5?

Quoting oxymorph (Reply 39):
As for 'Cambodia' and MH, I'm not dumb to fall for that trap.

LOL! I'm surprised the tracking situation display showed a projected path with no differing annotation/colour/whatever to show the guy watching it that it's a projected position and not actual... that's a huge No-No in the aircraft tracking world (yes, even back then)...Slap in the face again for MH...

[Edited 2015-08-21 06:44:19]
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
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TheFlyingDisk
Posts: 2013
Joined: Mon Jun 09, 2008 12:43 pm

RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 82

Fri Aug 21, 2015 2:22 pm

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 41):
RMAF caught sleeping... why didn't they notify KLATCC or tried to raise the aircraft on the frequency for the sector or at 121.5?

Simple - they weren't really watching the radar screens closely. Malaysia's threat board is basically empty and the typical Malaysian "never mind" syndrome kicks in.
I FLY KLM+ALASKA+QATAR+MALAYSIA+AIRASIA+MALINDO
 
ltbewr
Posts: 14867
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2004 1:24 pm

RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 82

Sun Aug 23, 2015 2:53 pm

What if this happened with an aircraft with an airline based anywhere but in the Islamic or South Asian areas of the world ? Would many be so quick to blame the pilot, the airline or the cultural/ethnic/religious/political structure and reality as we see with MH 370 ? I doubt it. There is little trust in the investigators and government of Malaysia, I don't see China making too much noise about it, The government with the greatest trust with is Australia. The unique situation of the loss of MH 370 has led to understandable frustration, blame the pilot 1st scenarios, 'truthers' , conspiracy theories running amuck, and little evidence of where the a/c went down. The lack of recovery to now and a low likelihood of ever recovering the 'black boxes', and even then, their data could be near useless, is feeding even more speculation.

In the meantime we must learn from this loss as with any aircraft loss, most notably, improve tracking systems that cannot be turned off by a pilot or others.
 
WingedMigrator
Posts: 1771
Joined: Wed Oct 26, 2005 9:45 am

RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 82

Sun Aug 23, 2015 3:38 pm

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 56):
The lack of recovery to now and a low likelihood of ever recovering the 'black boxes'

I disagree that it's unlikely. It's a matter of time, because a search of the sea floor is a painstaking and slow undertaking. Once the wreckage is located, the likelihood of finding, recovering and reading out the recorders (especially the FDR) is quite high.
 
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777Jet
Posts: 6982
Joined: Sat Mar 08, 2014 7:29 am

RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 82

Mon Aug 24, 2015 11:55 pm

Quoting WingedMigrator (Reply 44):
Quoting ltbewr (Reply 56):The lack of recovery to now and a low likelihood of ever recovering the 'black boxes'I disagree that it's unlikely.

It's a matter of time, because a search of the sea floor is a painstaking and slow undertaking. Once the wreckage is located, the likelihood of finding, recovering and reading out the recorders (especially the FDR) is quite high.

If the wreckage is located.

As far as I'm aware, if nothing substantial indicating the main wreckage site has been found on the sea floor upon completion of the current search of the extended priority search area then the search will be called off unless there is new information -(ie: perhaps flaperon drift modelling)- that indicates that a different search area is more probable.

Governments will not keep throwing money at this and nor should they except for Malaysia of course.

IMHO if the current search, or a redefined search based on flaperon drift modelling, can't locate the main wreckage then 9M-MRO will most likely not be found for decades if ever at all.
DC10-10/30,MD82/88/90, 717,727,732/3/4/5/7/8/9ER,742/4,752/3,763/ER,772/E/L/3/W,788/9, 306,320,321,332/3,346,359,388
 
kurtjeter
Posts: 142
Joined: Mon Feb 21, 2011 1:32 am

RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 82

Tue Aug 25, 2015 12:43 am

Quoting WingedMigrator (Reply 44):
I disagree that it's unlikely. It's a matter of time, because a search of the sea floor is a painstaking and slow undertaking. Once the wreckage is located, the likelihood of finding, recovering and reading out the recorders (especially the FDR) is quite high.

I know the AF 447 recorders were read out, even after a lengthy period of ocean-soaking, but I consider that more miraculous than something we should customarily expect. IMHO I'd say the chances of FINDING either recorder from MH are much higher than being able to read out anything from them.
If they are usable after "however more long it takes," unlimited kudos to the manufacturers!
 
User avatar
777Jet
Posts: 6982
Joined: Sat Mar 08, 2014 7:29 am

RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 82

Tue Aug 25, 2015 1:59 am

Quoting kurtjeter (Reply 46):
I know the AF 447 recorders were read out, even after a lengthy period of ocean-soaking, but I consider that more miraculous than something we should customarily expect.

I wouldn't call it miraculous; they are built to withstand quite some punishment.

Quoting kurtjeter (Reply 46):
IMHO I'd say the chances of FINDING either recorder from MH are much higher than being able to read out anything from them.

IMHO the opposite is more likely.

Quoting kurtjeter (Reply 46):
If they are usable after "however more long it takes," unlimited kudos to the manufacturers!

Absolutely!
DC10-10/30,MD82/88/90, 717,727,732/3/4/5/7/8/9ER,742/4,752/3,763/ER,772/E/L/3/W,788/9, 306,320,321,332/3,346,359,388
 
WingedMigrator
Posts: 1771
Joined: Wed Oct 26, 2005 9:45 am

RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 82

Tue Aug 25, 2015 4:40 am

Quoting kurtjeter (Reply 46):
but I consider that more miraculous than something we should customarily expect.

I don't think the AF447 investigators found anything miraculous about reading out those recorders. The sea floor is quite a benign environment, at least compared to what those memory modules are rated for.
 
morsecoder
Posts: 24
Joined: Mon Mar 23, 2015 2:42 am

RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 82

Tue Aug 25, 2015 5:42 am

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 45):
As far as I'm aware, if nothing substantial indicating the main wreckage site has been found on the sea floor upon completion of the current search of the extended priority search area then the search will be called off unless there is new information -(ie: perhaps flaperon drift modelling)- that indicates that a different search area is more probable.

One possibility: the analysis of the flaperon leads to a hypothesis about what the debris on the ocean floor looks like. Testing that hypothesis would involve going back through all the data already collected and looking for something specific, rather than what they're doing now, which is looking for everything in general. That might make the difference.

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