Teen Caught Pointing Laser Scope At A Police Helo

tp1040 · Tue Aug 18, 2015 6:32 pm

Video

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=6db_1439913580

Vaughan, ON - On Sunday, August 16, 2015, at 1:30 a.m., Air2 was in the area of Highway 7 and Pine Valley Drive assisting uniform officers on the ground, who were responding to a weapons call. While searching for a suspect from the air, the pilot and tactical flight officer were struck by an unrelated bright light source that originated in the area of Jenna Court.

Dumb 19 year old. They caught him after he ran.

Part147 · Tue Aug 18, 2015 6:51 pm

Throw. The. Book. At. Him!

B777LRF · Tue Aug 18, 2015 6:53 pm

Imagine that, I was going to type the exact same as Part147, in the exact same manner.

KC135Hydraulics · Tue Aug 18, 2015 7:05 pm

I hope the dog got a nibble or two in before the cops picked him up off the ground.

bennett123 · Tue Aug 18, 2015 7:14 pm

Would be a pity if the dog did not get some of the action.

ec99 · Tue Aug 18, 2015 7:31 pm

I wonder what the laws are in Canada. In the States, if the cops catch you and choose to they can put you in jail for a very long time.

Ruining a 19 year olds life over this seems overly harsh but I wonder if a significant prison sentence may bring some attention to the risks of this activity.

It is also a really dumb crime. There is literally a laser beam the police can follow back to your position.

ssteve · Tue Aug 18, 2015 7:34 pm

Quoting EC99 (Reply 5):
Ruining a 19 year olds life over this seems overly harsh but I wonder if a significant prison sentence may bring some attention to the risks of this activity.

Any sort of felony conviction is pretty damning for the rest of your life.

jetwet1 · Tue Aug 18, 2015 7:42 pm

"Excuse me sir, your son is a dumbass", I mean seriously, point a laser at any aircraft is a no no, but a police copter, that's just stupid.

DAL763ER · Tue Aug 18, 2015 7:47 pm

Quoting EC99 (Reply 5):
Ruining a 19 year olds life over this seems overly harsh but I wonder if a significant prison sentence may bring some attention to the risks of this activity.

Overly harsh? No, not really. We are letting teenagers get away with too much these days just because. I'm 24, I wasn't pulling this sort of crap when I was a teen.

Italianflyer · Tue Aug 18, 2015 8:30 pm

Nineteen, thirty-nine or 99 he is putting people's lives and we'll being at risk. There is clear and present danger; possible intent or at best,wrecklessness. This stuff, along with the drone nonsense, WILL cause an accident and loss of life.
Prosicute to the fullest extent!

rampbro · Tue Aug 18, 2015 8:46 pm

This kid doesn't need to go to prison, that will only remove his career prospects and consign him to a criminal lifestyle and recidivism, costing the taxpayer more money in the long run. The problem here is that these idiots don't think they will get caught, which renders the notion of punitive detention moot. What the authorities ought to do is follow some course of restorative justice where this idiot has to go on the nightly news and in every newspaper, admit that he acted like an idiot, express remorse for his actions, and point out how easy it was for the law to catch up with him.

I'll note that the laser pointer in question was attached to a pellet gun - probably not a great thing that someone dumb enough to point a laser-equipped weapon at a police helicopter had access to that in the first place.

EA CO AS · Tue Aug 18, 2015 9:01 pm

Quoting EC99 (Reply 5):
Ruining a 19 year olds life over this seems overly harsh

And if they'd crashed it would have ruined the pilots' lives. Kind of harsh also, don't you think?

rampbro · Tue Aug 18, 2015 9:08 pm

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 11):

And if they'd crashed it would have ruined the pilots' lives. Kind of harsh also, don't you think?

In Canada, justice is not meted out based on what might have happened, it is meted out based on what did happen.

KC135Hydraulics · Tue Aug 18, 2015 10:23 pm

I don't care if it ruins his life. He nearly ruined the lives of law enforcement officers. Punish him to the maximum extent. If it relegates him to a life of crime and prison, OH WELL. Set the example.

PGNCS · Tue Aug 18, 2015 10:36 pm

Quoting rampbro (Reply 10):
costing the taxpayer more money in the long run.

The primary consideration in criminal justice is never the cost, it's the justice.

Quoting rampbro (Reply 10):
The problem here is that these idiots don't think they will get caught, which renders the notion of punitive detention moot.

Well, now that they've been caught they are an example whether or not they like being examples.

Quoting rampbro (Reply 10):
What the authorities ought to do is follow some course of restorative justice where this idiot has to go on the nightly news and in every newspaper, admit that he acted like an idiot, express remorse for his actions, and point out how easy it was for the law to catch up with him.

This is a non punishment that says, in essence, "I got away with it". This approach restores nothing. He can say he has remorse whether or not he actually does, and we already know he's an idiot judging from his actions.

Quoting rampbro (Reply 12):
And if they'd crashed it would have ruined the pilots' lives. Kind of harsh also, don't you think?

In Canada, justice is not meted out based on what might have happened, it is meted out based on what did happen.

And what happened is a serious criminal offense and needs to be dealt with as such. I have been lased twice while flying an airliner, and it is a very serious problem.

longhauler · Tue Aug 18, 2015 10:50 pm

Quoting rampbro (Reply 10):
This kid doesn't need to go to prison, that will only remove his career prospects and consign him to a criminal lifestyle and recidivism

"this kid" ????

He is 19 years old and he is an adult. He attempted murder and should be dealt with as such.

I am tired of "kids" not being accountable for their actions. It's about time he grew up.

rampbro · Tue Aug 18, 2015 11:08 pm

Quoting KC135Hydraulics (Reply 14):
He nearly ruined the lives of law enforcement officers.

Nearly being the key word. It's also completely irrelevant that the pilots in question were law enforcement officers - just because they're cops doesn't make them any more or less important than civil, military or private aviators.

Quoting PGNCS (Reply 15):
The primary consideration in criminal justice is never the cost, it's the justice.

Absolutely, but when comparable punitive or rehabilitative options are available, and outcomes are similar, cost does become a consideration. House arrest or a suspended sentence or jail time, this kid is most likely not going to point another laser at an aircraft, meaning that if he were sentenced to punitive detention this would be an unnecessary burden on the tax payer.

Quoting PGNCS (Reply 15):
And what happened is a serious criminal offense and needs to be dealt with as such. I have been lased twice while flying an airliner, and it is a very serious problem.

While I certainly agree that this is a serious criminal offense and a major problem, I'm just making the point that giving this kid jail time is not going to stop him from lasing planes in the future, nor will it convince other people not to, meaning that the end result is a kid who is screwed for life and an unnecessary cost to the tax payer.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 16):
He attempted murder

You must have miswritten this statement given that he's been charged but not convicted, and in Canada we still have the presumption of innocence. Further, I can see that you haven't read the charge sheet given that attempted murder is not one of the charges laid against him, rather Mischief Endagering Life (a step or two down from Att. Murder). I suppose the prosecutor would say that the mens rea requirement for att. murder was not achieved, given that the alleged perpetrator was a dumbass teenager who actually wasn't trying to hurt anyone.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 16):
am tired of "kids" not being accountable for their actions. It's about time he grew up.

LOL that is pretty rich given the signature on your profile......I guess what's good for the goose isn't good for the gander. By the way good job never screwing up once as a youth.

longhauler · Tue Aug 18, 2015 11:11 pm

Quoting rampbro (Reply 12):
In Canada, justice is not meted out based on what might have happened, it is meted out based on what did happen.

This is not true.

Otherwise, if one attempted murder but was unsuccessful, one could claim innocence because murder "didn't happen". By the same logic, one is innocent if rape were attempted but penetration did not occur. Same thing with the "innocent" armed robber who didn't actually steal anything.

"Intent" is a very powerful premise in Canadian law. Aiming a green laser at a police helicopter (or any aircraft) shows very clear intent.

hilram · Tue Aug 18, 2015 11:14 pm

Quoting rampbro (Reply 17):

Nearly being the key word. It's also completely irrelevant that the pilots in question were law enforcement officers - just because they're cops doesn't make them any more or less important than civil, military or private aviators.

Quoting rampbro (Reply 12):
In Canada, justice is not meted out based on what might have happened, it is meted out based on what did happen.

If somebody fires a gun at you, and luckily for you misses his mark, are you willing to be just as lenient? After all, the killing of you did not happen. Should "justice" be meted out accordingly?

EDIT: longhauler beat me to it!

[Edited 2015-08-18 16:35:22]

longhauler · Tue Aug 18, 2015 11:19 pm

Quoting rampbro (Reply 17):
I suppose the prosecutor would say that the mens rea requirement for att. murder was not achieved, given that the alleged perpetrator was a dumbass teenager who actually wasn't trying to hurt anyone.

If he wasn't trying to "hurt anyone", what exactly was he trying to do by aiming a device capable of blinding pilots at an aircraft?

"dumbass teenager" maybe. But to the law, he is an adult.

Quoting rampbro (Reply 17):

LOL that is pretty rich given the signature on your profile......I guess what's good for the goose isn't good for the gander. By the way good job never screwing up once as a youth.

The big difference is that I have always been held accountable for my actions, and like any man, have owned up to them and accepted the concequenses. While I have done many things as a youth (not a 19+ year old adult), I have never aimed a weapon at another. And was punished for those actions I did commit.

That line drawn from actions commited to consequences accepted is what makes me who I am now.

phatfarmlines · Tue Aug 18, 2015 11:40 pm

I just checked out the location on Google Maps. It looks like it was near the path of runway 23 arrivals at YYZ.

Nice subdivision, well manicured lawns, shame that crime is occurring even there.

Tugger · Tue Aug 18, 2015 11:43 pm

Quoting EC99 (Reply 5):
Ruining a 19 year olds life over this seems overly harsh but I wonder if a significant prison sentence may bring some attention to the risks of this activity.

Not harsh, equal, he attempted to "ruin" the pilots eyes and they people depend on their eyes for their livelihood (as do most people, but pilots in particular).

Quoting longhauler (Reply 18):
Quoting rampbro (Reply 12):
In Canada, justice is not meted out based on what might have happened, it is meted out based on what did happen.

This is not true.

Otherwise, if one attempted murder but was unsuccessful, one could claim innocence because murder "didn't happen".

Hmmm.... actually it is true. Correct me if I am wrong but that person would be charged with "attempted murder", if they were charged with what "might have happened" they would be charged with murder.

Just nitpicking. I am fine with charging the idiot appropriately, don't need anything fancy or "an example" made, only justice for the crime committed/charged. And I hope the "young adult" does end up OK and leads a good life.

Tugg

sccutler · Tue Aug 18, 2015 11:57 pm

Quoting EC99 (Reply 5):

Ruining a 19 year olds life over this seems overly harsh but I wonder if a significant prison sentence may bring some attention to the risks of this activity.

Whether prison or some other punishment, it must be addressed aggressively, and publicly.

VS4ever · Wed Aug 19, 2015 12:38 am

Stupid Stupid Stupid. Look we were all kids once and did ridiculous stuff, but not sure pointing lasers at planes is/should ever be on the list.

I like many hope they throw the book at him, while the cost to taxpayers is important, so is sending a message that this kind crap will not be tolerated.

Unfortunately there are too many that will wait for "the accident" to happen, before real action is taken. I do hope we don't get to that point..

Skydrol · Wed Aug 19, 2015 1:23 am

From 680 News:

A member of the Canadian Armed Forces has been arrested for allegedly pointing a laser at a York Regional Police helicopter on the weekend.

Nicholas Caranci, 19, is facing charges of mischief endangering life, unlawfully engaging in behaviour that endangers an aircraft, and projecting a bright light source in navigable airspace.

Well , imagine that?

LD4

EA CO AS · Wed Aug 19, 2015 4:34 am

Quoting rampbro (Reply 12):
Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 11):
And if they'd crashed it would have ruined the pilots' lives. Kind of harsh also, don't you think?

In Canada, justice is not meted out based on what might have happened, it is meted out based on what did happen.

And what did happen was a deliberate violation of the law that could have resulted in loss of life.

The fact that no loss of life occurred is irrelevant; the intent was to willfully engage in behavior that was illegal.

This man should receive significant punishment based on this intent, despite what you may think.

joeycapps · Wed Aug 19, 2015 10:53 am

http://www.vvdailypress.com/article/20150818/NEWS/150819739

Same thing happened in the next town over from me. It was an 18 year old this time. Ridiculous.

Aesma · Wed Aug 19, 2015 10:55 am

If you shoot at someone or put a knife in their stomach, intent is pretty clear. I've no idea what the laser idiots are trying to do, but I doubt they're trying to kill someone.

aljrooney · Wed Aug 19, 2015 11:14 am

Try coming into GIG at night, as you approach over the Favelas. It's like a Jean Michel Jarre concert!!

par13del · Wed Aug 19, 2015 12:34 pm

Quoting rampbro (Reply 16):
I'm just making the point that giving this kid jail time is not going to stop him from lasing planes in the future,

Well, while he is in jail he won't be lasing any planes, or do you believe that jail only serves one purpose? I always looked at it as having two, remove the offender from society so that we are no longer available to his whims, and punish them by removing them from the society they want to enjoy.

Quoting rampbro (Reply 16):
nor will it convince other people not to,

In wish case we should do away with all jail or methods of actions against those who violate society rules / laws as there is not chance of prevention by setting examples.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 27):
If you shoot at someone or put a knife in their stomach, intent is pretty clear. I've no idea what the laser idiots are trying to do, but I doubt they're trying to kill someone.

Is that because you have such a large body of evidence of what happens when you shoot or stab someone, so perhaps we need to increase the sample size of laser incident on pilots landing / taking off so that we will know exactly the effect?
Somehow I don't like that option, in aviation when we look at final accident reports we usually identify a combination of items / events which led to the accident, is this a case of simply taking the lasing as a minor event as numerous options exist to mitigate the event?
Perhaps the FAA should get involved and make lasing a non-event not allowed to be reported or logged by pilots, then with no public statements about the incidents those who conduct such activity for publicity will move on to something else. I don't like this option either, the other which is to change the cockpit glass on all airlines to reduce / mitigate the effects will be costly, airlines will baulk, I don't think that there is any way that the NTSB or anyone will be able to pin a crash on lasing as the primary cause to get the public angry enough to demand greater action.

Toni_ · Wed Aug 19, 2015 2:00 pm

Quoting aljrooney (Reply 28):
Try coming into GIG at night, as you approach over the Favelas. It's like a Jean Michel Jarre concert!!

LOL! As an old fan of Jean Michel Jarre, your comment just had me in tears! Thank you for cracking me up! I came to take part in the serious debate but you ruined that now.

ltbewr · Wed Aug 19, 2015 2:22 pm

Perhaps a civil penalty or serious fines in the $1,000's as well as many hours of community service should be considered on the offenders (and if the offender is a minor, then on the parent(s)) as to laser pointers use on aircraft, rather than just criminal penalties. In part the civil penalties/fines/community service could be used to cover costs from injuries, disruptions of people affected, costs of investigations and as a deterrent.
Already we have seen aircraft pilots have serious eye injuries from use of misuse of laser pointers and I fear that someday a major air disaster will occur with a loss of lives form such misuse, so go get them.

longhauler · Wed Aug 19, 2015 2:23 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 27):
I've no idea what the laser idiots are trying to do

It would appear not.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 27):
but I doubt they're trying to kill someone.

Then what do you think the outcome of blinding the pilot of a single pilot aircraft would be?

Acheron · Wed Aug 19, 2015 2:33 pm

Quoting rampbro (Reply 16):
given that the alleged perpetrator was a dumbass teenager who actually wasn't trying to hurt anyone.

If you are aiming a powerful laser at an aircraft despite knowing the effects it can have, yes, you are trying to hurt someone.

longhauler · Wed Aug 19, 2015 2:46 pm

I can understand the thoughts of some, that this man was just a kid having fun after dark with his buddies. The issue is though at 19 years old, in the eyes of Canadian law, he is an adult.

Canadian law changes with the age of the accused. Less than 19 as a youth, the accused would be held less acountable, above 19, he is tried the same as any adult.

The law does though allow some leniency in some cases. The premise is that the accused, at a young age, does not really understand what he is doing. So, if it can be proven that someone above 19 is not fully aware of the outcome of his actions .... say mentally challenged or some religions ... then that will be taken into account.

However ... a 19 year old, who is a member of the Canadian Armed Forces, (Canada's Military) ... not only is trained on how to use his weapon, but was also fully aware of the outcome of its use. I see no reason he should not be charged, tried and convicted as a fully aware adult.

tp1040 · Wed Aug 19, 2015 3:07 pm

We are not talking about some innocent child. These young men knew what they did was wrong.

1. They tried to hide, behind the SUV
2. They discarded the lasers (in the video you can see one person throw and object under some bushes while the 19 year old threw his and jumped the fence)
3. The 19 year old tried to escape.

Those are acts of somebody that is guilty.

VFRonTop · Wed Aug 19, 2015 4:36 pm

Quoting tp1040 (Reply 35):
We are not talking about some innocent child. These young men knew what they did was wrong.

1. They tried to hide, behind the SUV
2. They discarded the lasers (in the video you can see one person throw and object under some bushes while the 19 year old threw his and jumped the fence)
3. The 19 year old tried to escape.

Those are acts of somebody that is guilty.

This idiot will probably be looking at multiple charges, from the top of my head
- Interfering with a police investigation
- Resisting arrest
- Penalties under The Aeronautics Act (fine up to CA$100k)
Anyone else think of any others?

There are over 500 reported instances of "lasings" in Canada a year. I'm sure (like on here) people will be calling for a tough approach to this case.

PacificBeach · Wed Aug 19, 2015 4:53 pm

19 is an adult, period. If people are at an age where they can get married, have kids, serve in military etc. then they are also at an age where they can be held fully responsible.

AFAIK Boston bomber who was sentenced to death was also 19 when he committed the crime ( couple months short of 20).

exFWAOONW · Wed Aug 19, 2015 5:15 pm

Maybe demonstrating the consequences of stupidity will cause some of the slackers in our schools (those who wear ignorance like a badge of honor) to wise up.

ThePointblank · Thu Aug 20, 2015 4:11 am

Quoting VFRonTop (Reply 36):
Anyone else think of any others?

Be drummed out of the Canadian Forces by being Released for Misconduct, at the very best? That's going to negatively affect one's career prospects permanently, and I do mean permanently... that means no further military career, or even a job working for any level of government or a private company on contract with the federal government.

KaiGywer · Thu Aug 20, 2015 4:35 am

Quoting EC99 (Reply 5):
I wonder what the laws are in Canada. In the States, if the cops catch you and choose to they can put you in jail for a very long time.

No, that is actually the job of a judge and jury...

nomadd22 · Thu Aug 20, 2015 8:02 am

Quoting rampbro (Reply 12):
Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 11):

And if they'd crashed it would have ruined the pilots' lives. Kind of harsh also, don't you think?

In Canada, justice is not meted out based on what might have happened, it is meted out based on what did happen.

So, in Canada, it's ok to shoot a machine gun at a schoolyard full of kids as long as none of them are hit?

hilram · Thu Aug 20, 2015 9:15 am

Popular Mechanics is reporting the story now:
http://www.popularmechanics.com/flig...-laser-at-police-chopper-arrested/

copter808 · Thu Aug 20, 2015 10:15 pm

Quoting longhauler (Reply 15):
"this kid" ????

He is 19 years old and he is an adult. He attempted murder and should be dealt with as such.

I am tired of "kids" not being accountable for their actions. It's about time he grew up.

Although I agree with being held accountable for his actions, Attempted Murder is a bit extreme here. How would you prove INTENT, other than that he intended to point his laser at the aircraft?

Quoting hilram (Reply 18):
If somebody fires a gun at you, and luckily for you misses his mark, are you willing to be just as lenient? After all, the killing of you did not happen. Should "justice" be meted out accordingly?

I think a much better example would be firing a gun into the air. It MIGHT hit someone or something, but probably not.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 19):
If he wasn't trying to "hurt anyone", what exactly was he trying to do by aiming a device capable of blinding pilots at an aircraft?

Probably just "playing with his new toy". I doubt that he INTENDED to hurt anyone. If he did, then that's another story.

Quoting Tugger (Reply 21):
Not harsh, equal, he attempted to "ruin" the pilots eyes and they people depend on their eyes for their livelihood (as do most people, but pilots in particular).

How do we prove INTENT? He may be guilty of reckless conduct, but how can you prove he intended to harm the pilot?

Quoting VS4ever (Reply 23):
Stupid Stupid Stupid. Look we were all kids once and did ridiculous stuff, but not sure pointing lasers at planes is/should ever be on the list.

I like many hope they throw the book at him, while the cost to taxpayers is important, so is sending a message that this kind crap will not be tolerated.

Unfortunately there are too many that will wait for "the accident" to happen, before real action is taken. I do hope we don't get to that point..

There is no reason to spend a lot of money on this case. Prosecute it and give it publicity about the dangers of his actions. I suspect that most of the people doing this are unaware of the potential consequences.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 27):
If you shoot at someone or put a knife in their stomach, intent is pretty clear. I've no idea what the laser idiots are trying to do, but I doubt they're trying to kill someone.

Agreed, on both IDIOTS and intent.

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