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apodino
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AA To End PHL-TLV

Thu Aug 20, 2015 2:36 pm

I don't have a link to share...but this shocking announcement came this morning, AA will discontinue PHL - TLV in January...citing the fact the route never made a profit in six years of operation and lost a lot of money. They do leave the door open to operating the flight from another hub...such as MIA or JFK. I also have to wonder how much of this came as a result of the TWA thing...and also if AA is burning even more bridges with this announcement and hurting their ability to serve the market in the future.
 
PlaneAdmirer
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AA To End PHL-TLV

Thu Aug 20, 2015 2:42 pm

What burning of bridges? There is nothing that compels AA or any other privately (not government owned but publicly traded in this case) to consistently lose money on a route.
 
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enilria
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AA To End PHL-TLV

Thu Aug 20, 2015 2:51 pm

Still appears to be for sale. Odd that they would not zero out inventory if it is known to be ending. If it is ending I would bet it moves to JFK.
 
eal
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AA To End PHL-TLV

Thu Aug 20, 2015 2:52 pm

Quoting PlaneAdmirer (Reply 1):
What burning of bridges?

Referencing AA's previous issues with TLV following the TWA acquisition.

I was also under the impression that this was a money maker for US, and subsequently AA.
 
apodino
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AA To End PHL-TLV

Thu Aug 20, 2015 2:59 pm

Quoting enilria (Reply 2):
Still appears to be for sale. Odd that they would not zero out inventory if it is known to be ending. If it is ending I would bet it moves to JFK.

The memo said they don't anticipate serving it from any hub for now. So I doubt it will go to JFK. Besides...where would the slot come from?

Quoting eal (Reply 3):
Referencing AA's previous issues with TLV following the TWA acquisition.

I was also under the impression that this was a money maker for US, and subsequently AA.

That's what we all thought. I guess they lost 20 million dollars last year on this route alone. And they said it never turned a profit in any year since launch.
 
codc10
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AA To End PHL-TLV

Thu Aug 20, 2015 3:05 pm

Quoting eal (Reply 3):

I was also under the impression that this was a money maker for US, and subsequently AA.

While I am surprised that AA intends to end service, TLV is a long, competitive, price-sensitive market with a lot of capacity in the NY/NJ area (much of the local PHL-TLV traffic is generated in NJ). Delta recently dropped about 20% of its TLV capacity going from 747 to 777 ex-JFK and there are rumors that UA's longstanding EWR-TLV is not nearly as profitable as it once was.

It would not shock me if the combined AA+US network yields other, more lucrative opportunities for deployment of the PHLTLV capacity. I do not see AA moving the flight JFK, either. Perhaps MIA is more likely if AA is to retain TLV service.
 
ORDTLV2414
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AA To End PHL-TLV

Thu Aug 20, 2015 3:07 pm

Sad to hear if true. I wonder what went wrong, DL and UA make money out of their east coast hubs. Will AA continue a partnership with LY or will it funnel people to TLV using BA and RJ?
 
phillyramp270
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AA To End PHL-TLV

Thu Aug 20, 2015 3:15 pm

I worked that flight everyday.. and when it comes back in when im on overtime. That 332 is no less than 80% full and its bursting with freight every single flight... I thnk this has to do with United, and its 3 flights to TLV 90 miles away in EWR... flooding the market with seats... we couldn't make a profit

Maybe we can try again with the 787-900 or the A350
Barack Obama is not a foreign born, brown skinned, anti-war socialist who gives away healthcare. You're thinking of Jesu
 
usairways85
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AA To End PHL-TLV

Thu Aug 20, 2015 3:16 pm

I can believe that there are better opportunities for AA than PHL-TLV, but I have a hard time believing the flight never made a profit. Yes, US' fares were typically below the competition and they pulled from the larger NJ area. But the flight was notoriously hard for upgrades and it is not like you saw many deep discounted fares below 800-$1k. And the business ties between Philly and Israel have only grown over the past few years.

I think it'd be a big loss if AA leaves TLV all together.

[Edited 2015-08-20 08:35:09]
 
CHI787ORD
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AA To End PHL-TLV

Thu Aug 20, 2015 3:20 pm

Quoting codc10 (Reply 5):
TLV is a long, competitive, price-sensitive market with a lot of capacity in the NY/NJ area (much of the local PHL-TLV traffic is generated in NJ).

PHL-TLV also had quite a few bookings from the DC area I believe. I think this might open an opportunity for UA or LY to open IAD-TLV.
 
RJNUT
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AA To End PHL-TLV

Thu Aug 20, 2015 3:21 pm

Quoting apodino (Thread starter):
also have to wonder how much of this came as a result of the TWA thing...

i believe it is this but that would not be made public

.
 
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phlsfo
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AA To End PHL-TLV

Thu Aug 20, 2015 3:29 pm

I used to work this flight all the time and was under the impression that it not only made a profit, but was one of the most lucrative flights in the US network. Still can't find a source though
 
codc10
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AA To End PHL-TLV

Thu Aug 20, 2015 3:41 pm

Quoting phillyramp270 (Reply 7):
I thnk this has to do with United, and its 3 flights to TLV 90 miles away in EWR... flooding the market with seats

UA has been at the same capacity in the EWR-TLV market (2x daily 777) long before US entered PHL-TLV.
 
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OA412
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AA To End PHL-TLV

Thu Aug 20, 2015 3:43 pm

Quoting phillyramp270 (Reply 7):
I thnk this has to do with United, and its 3 flights to TLV 90 miles away in EWR...

Actually UA flies EWR-TLV twice daily. This has been the case for a long time. People have often speculated about a third daily, but that has never happened.
Hughes Airwest - Top Banana In The West
 
777way
Posts: 6457
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AA To End PHL-TLV

Thu Aug 20, 2015 3:47 pm

Where else did US/AA serve TLV from that the routing is in the title? its simply AA to end TLV.
 
ORD Boy 2
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AA To End PHL-TLV

Thu Aug 20, 2015 3:50 pm

Can we get a source?
 
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enilria
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AA To End PHL-TLV

Thu Aug 20, 2015 3:55 pm

Quoting apodino (Reply 4):
The memo said they don't anticipate serving it from any hub for now. So I doubt it will go to JFK. Besides...where would the slot come from?

AA has too many slots at JFK, and frankly JFK slots are pretty easy to come by. Worst case they could swap it from a leisure market.
 
wn676
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AA To End PHL-TLV

Thu Aug 20, 2015 3:55 pm

I'm more inclined to believe that Israel gave AA the boot. TLV was making money hand over fist for US, and anyone who followed any of the corporate communications (Crew News, especially) since the route's launch will remember the endless stream of superlatives regarding its performance. This is simply a cover for the bad blood between the two parties.

[Edited 2015-08-20 08:58:18]
Tiny, unreadable text leaves ample room for interpretation.
 
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jetblastdubai
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AA To End PHL-TLV

Thu Aug 20, 2015 4:04 pm

Quoting CHI787ORD (Reply 9):
PHL-TLV also had quite a few bookings from the DC area I believe.
Quoting phillyramp270 (Reply 7):
That 332 is no less than 80% full and its bursting with freight every single flight.
Quoting codc10 (Reply 5):
Delta recently dropped about 20% of its TLV capacity going from 747 to 777
Quoting OA412 (Reply 13):
People have often speculated about a [UA]third daily, but that has never happened.

Maybe UA is just waiting for a "gift horse" to be delivered on a silver platter.
 
washingtonflyer
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AA To End PHL-TLV

Thu Aug 20, 2015 4:09 pm

I too tend to call blls**t on this being a money loser. Fares on this route were high; planes were almost always 90% full and Business was usually sold out - courtesy of paying customers.

If this had been a money loser for 6 years, DP would have cut it years ago (at a minimum, made it seasonal).
 
777ord
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AA To End PHL-TLV

Thu Aug 20, 2015 4:17 pm

yea, I don't believe it.. I bet it's a seasonal adjustment if anything like ATH. If we do drop this route, it will be a shame! But, I am seriously surprised we don't serve TLV from MIA! Tremendous money and demand has to be in MIA for TLV.
 
jetblue1965
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AA To End PHL-TLV

Thu Aug 20, 2015 4:20 pm

Quoting jetblastdubai (Reply 18):
Maybe UA is just waiting for a "gift horse" to be delivered on a silver platter.

UA could see this as an opportunity and up to that 3x 789 instead of 2x 77E, and possibly add ORD-TLV, which is easily within range for the 788.

Then UA would be the undisputed leader of US-TLV after El Al
 
wn676
Posts: 1747
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2005 5:33 am

AA To End PHL-TLV

Thu Aug 20, 2015 4:20 pm

Quoting jetblastdubai (Reply 18):
Maybe UA is just waiting for a "gift horse" to be delivered on a silver platter.

There's a large crate requiring a signature that just showed up at 233 S. Wacker...

Quoting washingtonflyer (Reply 19):
If this had been a money loser for 6 years, DP would have cut it years ago (at a minimum, made it seasonal).

    

And no indication was ever given that this was a loss-leader, or being operated just to give them a presence in the region like some others (GIG/GRU immediately spring to mind).
Tiny, unreadable text leaves ample room for interpretation.
 
originalblis
Posts: 19
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AA To End PHL-TLV

Thu Aug 20, 2015 4:26 pm

I know most people would prefer the direct flight but I often travel through Europe TLV-JFK to avoid the poor US legacy carrier product. It is often significantly cheaper and a much better product when I'm on a European airline. Maybe more people are like me and AA didn't have the demand they once did?
originalblis
 
flyfree727
Posts: 304
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AA To End PHL-TLV

Thu Aug 20, 2015 4:34 pm

delete delete

AA ORD

[Edited 2015-08-20 10:12:03]
 
joeman
Posts: 869
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AA To End PHL-TLV

Thu Aug 20, 2015 4:35 pm

Coming from a hub closure environment I will note that now since extraneous hubs have been shut down to the delight of most a.netters citing unprofitability, duplication of service or better use of resources, which I would think strengthens the viability of remaining hubs, it is always interesting when we learn that every route from every one of them is not profitable, and now in the day and age of record breaking profits which means they probably weren't doing so good beforehand.
 
910A
Posts: 1891
Joined: Sat Apr 04, 2015 2:11 am

AA To End PHL-TLV

Thu Aug 20, 2015 4:42 pm

Quoting eal (Reply 3):
I was also under the impression that this was a money maker for US, and subsequently AA.
Quoting phlsfo (Reply 11):
, but was one of the most lucrative flights in the US network.

Scott Kirby himself confirmed this prior to the merger at a speech of Phoenix Business leaders. Perhaps suddenly the political situation has changed in Israel and they want to get out now before it turns really bad over there.

Did AA ever come to agreement with Israel over the outstanding amount due, from TWA leaving without paying it's bills?
 
Rdh3e
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AA To End PHL-TLV

Thu Aug 20, 2015 4:51 pm

Most recent T-100 is January 2015, this is twelve months ending then. One of these is not like the others.
DL 90.5%
UA 90.6%
US 83.8%
 
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LAXintl
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AA To End PHL-TLV

Thu Aug 20, 2015 5:02 pm

Quoting 910A (Reply 26):
Did AA ever come to agreement with Israel over the outstanding amount due, from TWA leaving without paying it's bills?

Not as of 2014. AA paid about 14% of the claims resulting from a 2010 judgement against it, with about $15.5mil remaining due the ex-TWA employees as of last year. I know the then former minster of transport also lend his public support to employees.
Even during the AA BK process it was affirmed the company owed money to the employees and government.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
flyfree727
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AA To End PHL-TLV

Thu Aug 20, 2015 5:07 pm

There is now an internal source at AA..

Beginning January 2016, American, and by extension US Airways, will no longer operate nonstop service between PHL and Ben Gurion Airport (TLV) in Tel Aviv, Israel. Unfortunately, PHL-TLV has not performed well since its inception. Service between PHL and TLV has been a source of pride for our airline since 2009, and this isn’t a decision we made lightly. We’ve operated this route year-round for six years and have never turned a profit in any year; we lost more than $20 million on this service in the past year alone. We want to give every route the chance to succeed, but no matter how much we want to serve a particular route, we have to make the right decision for our business.



Our immediate focus is to be supportive of our team members based in Tel Aviv who have earned immense respect throughout the company for their excellence and dedication. We will discuss the implications of this business decision with them separately.



The final flight to Israel from PHL will be on Jan. 4, 2016 with the last return flight departing Tel Aviv for PHL on Jan. 5, 2016. Customers can still access TLV through our joint business partner British Airways via London or through our codeshare relationship with El Al via our European gateways such as London, Paris, Madrid and Frankfurt.

AA ORD
 
B757capt
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AA To End PHL-TLV

Thu Aug 20, 2015 5:14 pm

The views written by this user are in no manner the views of my employer and should not be thought as such.
 
apodino
Topic Author
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AA To End PHL-TLV

Thu Aug 20, 2015 5:19 pm

Thanks. Fly free. This is confirmed..,and is not a rumor. Can the moderators please change the thread title back to what it originally was.

As I said...this announcement came out of left field,..and either Scott Kirby was honest in the past about this route...or the company is being honest now. There is something more to this....because I don't think anyone saw this coming and this was very well kept under wraps until the company announcement this morning,
 
usairways85
Posts: 4168
Joined: Fri Nov 16, 2001 11:59 am

AA To End PHL-TLV

Thu Aug 20, 2015 5:23 pm

Quoting apodino (Reply 31):
As I said...this announcement came out of left field,..and either Scott Kirby was honest in the past about this route...or the company is being honest now. There is something more to this....because I don't think anyone saw this coming and this was very well kept under wraps until the company announcement this morning,

I think the out of left field aspect of the announcement is that AA is leaving TLV completely. There were a number of people who suggested PHL-TLV would be replaced by JFK, MIA, or both, but not that they would just drop it.

If PHL-TLV didn't turn a profit, I have to think that CLT-DUB/FCO/MAN & PHL-BRU would all be on the chopping block.

Also, how often do airlines give a 4 1/2 month landing period to cancel a route that has been losing money, during a time of the year that is notoriously slow.

I wonder what this will do to the growing business ties between the two. Over the years several news outlets quotted Israeli business leaders saying that the nonstop flight was definitely part of the consideration to set up shop in PHL.

[Edited 2015-08-20 10:29:04]

[Edited 2015-08-20 10:47:33]
 
Ammad
Posts: 333
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AA To End PHL-TLV

Thu Aug 20, 2015 5:32 pm

Good decision by AA. If route is in loss, it should be lost.
 
peanuts
Posts: 980
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AA To End PHL-TLV

Thu Aug 20, 2015 5:34 pm

Nothing better then airing negotiations over the public domains. LOL.

It's difficult to comprehend AA couldn't/wouldn't settle with Israel. What they're owed is chump change.

So there is "unwillingness". That's a terrible terrible sign of management ineptitude.

This one is bizarre.
 
USAirALB
Posts: 2346
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AA To End PHL-TLV

Thu Aug 20, 2015 5:35 pm

Something smells very fishy regarding this matter. I like several others believed that this route printed money for US, and I have heard of internal talks in the past regarding a second PHL-TLV or even a CLT-TLV.

I have a hard time believing that DP would allow this route to operate for several years in the red. Wasn't one of the reasons US acquired A332s was specifically for the TLV route?
RJ85, F70, E135, E140, E145, E70, E75, E90, CR2, CR7, CR9, 717, 732, 733, 734, 735, 73G, 738, 739, 744ER, 752, 753, 762, 772, 77E, 77W, 789, 319, 320, 321, 332, 333, 343, 359, 388
 
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OA412
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AA To End PHL-TLV

Thu Aug 20, 2015 5:41 pm

Quoting USAirALB (Reply 35):
CLT-TLV

I appreciate the support some of you show for CLT, but come on. DL couldn't make ATL-TLV work, a route from a larger city and larger hub. There is no way that US, or now AA, was/is going to make CLT-TLV work.
Hughes Airwest - Top Banana In The West
 
ORD Boy 2
Posts: 321
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AA To End PHL-TLV

Thu Aug 20, 2015 5:47 pm

So, the question is, can the capacity from North America be made up by UA, LY or DL..
I am stunned AA is pulling out.
 
777ord
Posts: 681
Joined: Sat May 15, 2010 12:04 pm

AA To End PHL-TLV

Thu Aug 20, 2015 5:52 pm

Quoting 777ord (Reply 20):
yea, I don't believe it.. I bet it's a seasonal adjustment if anything like ATH. If we do drop this route, it will be a shame! But, I am seriously surprised we don't serve TLV from MIA! Tremendous money and demand has to be in MIA for TLV.

Just read our internal memo.... So sad.
 
vlad1971
Posts: 97
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AA To End PHL-TLV

Thu Aug 20, 2015 5:53 pm

Please do not forget that for TLV route two A332 were used daily which significant increase the operating costs for the route ...
 
MAH4546
Posts: 26288
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AA To End PHL-TLV

Thu Aug 20, 2015 5:56 pm

I'm not surprised Philadelphia-Tel Aviv is being discontinued, I thought that would be highly likely, but for AA to exit Tel Aviv completely is very surprising me. It's the world's largest airline and to not serve such an important and large trans-Atlantic market from the United States is very disappointing.
a.
 
USAirALB
Posts: 2346
Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2007 4:46 am

AA To End PHL-TLV

Thu Aug 20, 2015 5:57 pm

Quoting OA412 (Reply 36):
I appreciate the support some of you show for CLT, but come on. DL couldn't make ATL-TLV work, a route from a larger city and larger hub. There is no way that US, or now AA, was/is going to make CLT-TLV work.

There were talks and rumors about a summer seasonal CLT-TLV, the majority of which came from US people at CLT. Whether you'd like to believe me or not regarding if I heard the rumor is your business.

And US @ CLTDL @ ATL. They both have their strengths and weaknesses. For example, US sees more flights and frequency to secondary destinations in the Northeast from CLT than DL does at ATL.
RJ85, F70, E135, E140, E145, E70, E75, E90, CR2, CR7, CR9, 717, 732, 733, 734, 735, 73G, 738, 739, 744ER, 752, 753, 762, 772, 77E, 77W, 789, 319, 320, 321, 332, 333, 343, 359, 388
 
strfyr51
Posts: 5100
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AA To End PHL-TLV

Thu Aug 20, 2015 6:09 pm

DID YOU HUYS miss SOMETHING?? cODE SHARE WITH "EL AL"?? American isn't giving up JACK!! They're getting RID of the cost of plane and crews,Maintenance, customer Service, Rampers Baggage handling and customs added to facilities and code sharing with EL AL. They're getting money for Nothing !! Brilliant!! Meanwhikle We're still Sluggin' it out!!
at United.
 
ORD Boy 2
Posts: 321
Joined: Fri Aug 25, 2000 12:25 pm

AA To End PHL-TLV

Thu Aug 20, 2015 6:14 pm

LY works with B6, AA ended the partnership last year. Hence the BOS flight.
 
omerlich
Posts: 110
Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2010 7:29 pm

AA To End PHL-TLV

Thu Aug 20, 2015 6:17 pm

well shocking news indeed.
I think we can expect LY to pick up any slack left.
future holds added frequencies as LY will replace it's fleet (as said by LY CEO: "we can't wait to open more destinations in the US"). untill now it wasn't possible due to the ancient fleet.now things change.
 
jetblue1965
Posts: 5050
Joined: Wed Mar 19, 2014 1:28 pm

AA To End PHL-TLV

Thu Aug 20, 2015 6:17 pm

Quoting ORD Boy 2 (Reply 37):
So, the question is, can the capacity from North America be made up by UA, LY or DL..
I am stunned AA is pulling out.

since you're expanding the universe to all of "north america", i'll add that AC also fly to TLV (from YYZ)

ps : can someone adjust the title now that it's virtually confirmed (short of GDS update)
 
jetblue1965
Posts: 5050
Joined: Wed Mar 19, 2014 1:28 pm

AA To End PHL-TLV

Thu Aug 20, 2015 6:24 pm

Quoting omerlich (Reply 44):
I think we can expect LY to pick up any slack left.

If I were LY I'd go for MIA before PHL, but I'm speaking as an armchair CEO again
 
flyiguy
Posts: 1003
Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2004 2:21 pm

AA To End PHL-TLV

Thu Aug 20, 2015 6:26 pm

Quoting CHI787ORD (Reply 9):
LY to open IAD-TLV.

Would like to see it, but won't believe it until it happens !

FLY
The opinions I post are of mine and mine alone, not of the airline I work for.
 
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United787
Posts: 2942
Joined: Fri May 20, 2005 12:20 pm

AA To End PHL-TLV

Thu Aug 20, 2015 6:28 pm

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 21):
UA could see this as an opportunity and up to that 3x 789 instead of 2x 77E, and possibly add ORD-TLV, which is easily within range for the 788.

I think AA would do better by moving the flight to ORD but I can't see them going for something that "ballsy" out of ORD. Would like to see UA do ORD-TLV since they already have a presence at TLV, the costs shouldn't be nearly as high as AA would be. Plus, UA has a ton more feed at ORD.

AA could probably make MIA-TLV work but I don't see them doing that either...
 
jetblue1965
Posts: 5050
Joined: Wed Mar 19, 2014 1:28 pm

AA To End PHL-TLV

Thu Aug 20, 2015 6:32 pm

Quoting United787 (Reply 48):
AA could probably make MIA-TLV work but I don't see them doing that either...

The way I see it (and suspected by many above) is that AA can't make it work because of the bad blood, not because of the route's fundamental economics

LY should take a stab at it if they have some spare 767

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