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crownvic
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RE: AA To End PHL-TLV

Fri Aug 21, 2015 4:35 am

While I have not read through all the posts, I could swear as recently as a year ago, there was rumor of US adding a second daily PHL-TLV routing, because the route was so successful.

Don't want to overreact on this, but I hope the old American is not up to their history again of taking over airlines and completely dismantling a hub (i.e. Air Cal in CA, Reno Air in Reno, TWA in STL and whoever else they have destroyed!). As the most profitable hub in the US system, I hope AA does not begin the dissection of PHL.
 
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LAX772LR
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RE: AA To End PHL-TLV

Fri Aug 21, 2015 4:38 am

Quoting peanuts (Reply 97):
Giving up TLV is just too easy. AA isn't about that. That would only empower DL more of "owning NY".

How does AA giving up a flight that's not from NYC, and probably only receives NYC feed via loss-leader.... empower DL, who is the smaller US player in the NYC-TLV market, into "owning more of NY"??
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
uberflieger
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RE: AA To End PHL-TLV

Fri Aug 21, 2015 5:29 am

Quoting klwright69 (Reply 99):
AA's official reason is the same now as it was then

But conspiracy theories are so much more exciting, than boring financials.   

Can't wait to find out, where these 2 freed up A330 birds will be flying next? Miami to...?   
 
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LAX772LR
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RE: AA To End PHL-TLV

Fri Aug 21, 2015 6:05 am

Quoting uberflieger (Reply 102):
Can't wait to find out, where these 2 freed up A330 birds will be flying next?

I'm guessing free up any 787s that aren't currently on TransPac routes, so they could be sent thereto.

[Edited 2015-08-20 23:05:36]
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
HKG212
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RE: AA To End PHL-TLV

Fri Aug 21, 2015 6:07 am

Quoting flyfree727 (Reply 29):
Customers can still access TLV through our joint business partner British Airways via London or through our codeshare relationship with El Al via our European gateways such as London, Paris, Madrid and Frankfurt.

I'm wondering if they will reinstate El Al as an AAdvantage partner? the termination of that relationship came shortly after the merger, presumably because of the TLV-PHL flights.
 
HNL
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RE: AA To End PHL-TLV

Fri Aug 21, 2015 6:21 am

Quoting HKG212 (Reply 104):
I'm wondering if they will reinstate El Al as an AAdvantage partner? the termination of that relationship came shortly after the merger, presumably because of the TLV-PHL flights.

The code shares ended because Israel ended up on the FAA naughty list (Category 2) which ended all United States based airlines from codeshares on airlines from Israel.
HNL - There's no place like it!
 
ORDTLV2414
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RE: AA To End PHL-TLV

Fri Aug 21, 2015 6:54 am

Quoting ckfred (Reply 95):

That said, I do wonder if ORD-TLV could work. Granted, the passenger traffic would skew towards leisure, but no one is flying the route. El Al dropped ORD-TLV a while back. If you go to the El Al website, travel on ORD-TLV requires flying the B6 code share between ORD and JFK.

ORD has the Jewish Community to support it but that being said, still about 50-70% of American Jews live on the east coast, which mean very few connecting flights, maybe some from SFO,SEA and the like. Yes TLV does get Christian Tourism and Business contacts, no doubt but the reguarlity and abundance of these flights is due to the strong relationship between American Jews and Israel and their (our) desire to for tourism there. I think a 787 defiently opens the possibility of this route but do not see it on a list of AA's priorities, especially when ORD needs a lot of help old Europe way.

Quoting HNL (Reply 105):
The code shares ended because Israel ended up on the FAA naughty list (Category 2) which ended all United States based airlines from codeshares on airlines from Israel.

I believe LY is back Category 1 but I'm not sure, maybe someone can confirm.
 
Andy33
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RE: AA To End PHL-TLV

Fri Aug 21, 2015 7:15 am

Quoting ORDTLV2414 (Reply 106):
I believe LY is back Category 1 but I'm not sure, maybe someone can confirm.

The FAA category system covers entire countries rather than individual airlines, so if there had been any Israeli airlines other than LY flying to the USA they would have been affected by the downgrade too.
On the most recent list published by the FAA on 4th August the state of Israel shows as Category 1 - I don't know when it returned to that category.
 
uberflieger
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RE: AA To End PHL-TLV

Fri Aug 21, 2015 7:47 am

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 103):
I'm guessing free up any 787s that aren't currently on TransPac routes

I believe all 788s are currently flying Asia, with the sole exception being DFW-EZE (2 frames), which will revert to 772.

Summer 2016 I expect American to begin widebody metal swapping, with LUS crews/equipment flying out of LAA bases & vice versa.
PHL-LHR is a prime 772 candidate (more premium seats), while the A330 is a better fit for seasonal MIA-FRA (less premium seats).

I shall really be surprised, if Philly doesn't get a new TATL route for S16. My guess is DUS   to tap into partner Airberlin's route network.
 
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DolphinAir747
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RE: AA To End PHL-TLV

Fri Aug 21, 2015 8:23 am

This is obviously due to bad blood and politics, same reason AA ended its FF relationship with LY. TLV is a hugely profitable TATL market. If an airline with hubs in JFK, MIA, abd LAX can't make TLV work, then there is a serious problem.

Quoting GSP psgr (Reply 56):
Well, you can't blame this one on the ME3, that's for sure.

I am sure Dick Anderson will find a way to spin it that way, knowing him.

[Edited 2015-08-21 01:26:13]

[Edited 2015-08-21 01:32:59]
 
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LAX772LR
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RE: AA To End PHL-TLV

Fri Aug 21, 2015 8:53 am

Quoting DolphinAir747 (Reply 109):
This is obviously due to bad blood and politics

How is it "obviously" that?

Quoting DolphinAir747 (Reply 109):
same reason AA ended its FF relationship with LY.

AA was forced to end its codeshare, so what would've been the point of keeping its FFP relationship?
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
Ryanair01
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RE: AA To End PHL-TLV

Fri Aug 21, 2015 9:30 am

From what I read this route would struggle because it needs two frames for a daily service, which will create a lot of cost pressure. What CO realised very quickly when they started is that you can have 2 daily flights for 3 frames or 1 daily flight takes 2 frames (unless you can tag on a worthwhile flight back in the US). On a very simple level, your cost per flight reduce quite a bit using the PMCO model. Back in the days of wide body domestic services, you might tag on a Miami or transcon sector to boost utilisation of the aircraft from an inbound TLV or similar flight, but now a days less so, which puts pressure on international sector to exclusively cover airframe overhead costs.

US's TLV route is just a tiny bit too far to spin an aircraft in a 24 hour rotation. Against that background it isn't a surprise the route makes a loss, not because of revenue, but because of trying to carry the cost of two aircraft from one return daily flight. I think that is how come this route being cut.

Turning to history, the TWA affair in TLV was a real stain on that carriers legacy.

In short the TWA merger/purchase was a two stage thing. Only parts of TWA (original TWA, not AA) were transferred into a new business called TWA LLC (AA Corp), which then gradually merged with American, a process that only finished in 2004 (that simplifies a very complex transaction, seniority list issues and much else).

AA didn't want the TWA TLV operation because they had 100 staff in Israel, to handle one daily 767 flight, an almost comedically unviable operation. So the TLV route was one of the assets which never transferred to TWA LLC (AA Corp) and remained with TWA (original) which was liquidated (i.e. truly went bust). The original TWA and not AA screwed the TLV staff by refusing to pay their contracted severance terms which they were perfectly entitled to under Israeli law. In the end one afternoon TWA literally just stopped flying to TLV with no prior notice leaving passengers stranded, because there was a very real risk that their aircraft would be seized as they were breaking the law.

I suspect if there was any real risk of a PMUS plane being seized in the same way it would already have happened by now, so no need to cut the route because of TWA.
 
ftzvika
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RE: AA To End PHL-TLV

Fri Aug 21, 2015 9:57 am

SHOCKING to hear that.. aspacialy when AA claimed a few months ago they evaluating the MIA-TLV line

almost positive it's the TWA issue!
i thought AA would try to makesome araingements with the ex workers of TWA and the money they've lost..
probebly it was just a small preiod we have seen here AA and there's not going to be more AA to TLV any longer
 
FlyPNS1
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RE: AA To End PHL-TLV

Fri Aug 21, 2015 12:29 pm

Quoting ftzvika (Reply 112):
almost positive it's the TWA issue!

If PHL-TLV was such a money maker, AA would just pay off the TWA claim and keep the service going. This leads me to believe that either 1) PHL-TLV is only marginal at best and not worth paying the claims or 2) PHL-TLV is just a big loser economically.

Either way, I think people grossly overstate the profitability of TLV service from the U.S. Even El Al has very little service outside a of few key gateways. DL found this out with their ATL-TLV service and I don't think US/AA is all that different with PHL.
 
jetsetter629
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RE: AA To End PHL-TLV

Fri Aug 21, 2015 12:31 pm

Quoting uberflieger (Reply 108):
Summer 2016 I expect American to begin widebody metal swapping, with LUS crews/equipment flying out of LAA bases & vice versa.
PHL-LHR is a prime 772 candidate (more premium seats), while the A330 is a better fit for seasonal MIA-FRA (less premium seats).

I shall really be surprised, if Philly doesn't get a new TATL route for S16. My guess is DUS   to tap into partner Airberlin's route network.

I agree about the 772 being deployed on the PHL-LHR route an would love to see DUS added to the network. More TATL changes next summer I'm sure...
 
uberflieger
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RE: AA To End PHL-TLV

Fri Aug 21, 2015 12:31 pm

Quoting Ryanair01 (Reply 111):
AA didn't want the TWA TLV operation because they had 100 staff in Israel, to handle one daily 767 flight

If Tel Aviv had the potential in 2000 to be a highly profitable market, the old AA management would have seized the opportunity, up-gauged to a 777, started a 2nd / 3rd flight from Miami / Chicago. The bean counters didn't think it was.
Fast forward to 2015. The 'New American' is a strong brand in all the right places to add a 2nd daily, reducing the operational cost. Instead, American's new LUS management is cancelling it.

Fact: TLV is a financial dud. TK & European LCCs are depressing yields and the smart way to offer the service is with a European partner.
 
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compensateme
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RE: AA To End PHL-TLV

Fri Aug 21, 2015 12:33 pm

Quoting ftzvika (Reply 112):
SHOCKING to hear that.. aspacialy when AA claimed a few months ago they evaluating the MIA-TLV linealmost positive it's the TWA issue!i thought AA would try to makesome araingements with the ex workers of TWA and the money they've lost..probebly it was just a small preiod we have seen here AA and there's not going to be more AA to TLV any longer

The extent of "AA evaluating MIA-TLV" was mostly hype amongst our MIA-based posters.

I'm just flabbergasted at how many people think this is some giant conspiracy. There are oodles of routes that are underperforming that many on here have been mislead into believing are "printing money," for some reason or another. I don't doubt PHL-TLV was a money loser, AA evaluated moving it to another gateway but ultimately decided to end service.
We don’t care what your next flight is.
 
uberflieger
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RE: AA To End PHL-TLV

Fri Aug 21, 2015 12:40 pm

Quoting Compensateme (Reply 116):
I'm just flabbergasted at how many people think this is some giant conspiracy

  

Got to admit though, it is entertaining. 
 
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DolphinAir747
Posts: 1901
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RE: AA To End PHL-TLV

Fri Aug 21, 2015 12:50 pm

Quoting ftzvika (Reply 112):
SHOCKING to hear that.. aspacialy when AA claimed a few months ago they evaluating the MIA-TLV line

almost positive it's the TWA issue!

PMUS management used to name this among their most profitable routes. It had among the highest load factors and fares in the system. And AA was very serious about MIA TLV, mentioning several times that it would launch the following year and even announcing aircraft types, yet now they say that they have no plans to return to TLV in the near future. It's either the TWA issue or something political, EY/QR maybe.
 
us330
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RE: AA To End PHL-TLV

Fri Aug 21, 2015 12:57 pm

Quoting crownvic (Reply 100):
Don't want to overreact on this, but I hope the old American is not up to their history again of taking over airlines and completely dismantling a hub (i.e. Air Cal in CA, Reno Air in Reno, TWA in STL and whoever else they have destroyed!)

Except that this isn't the old American. The management is all former US Airways people.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 113):
If PHL-TLV was such a money maker, AA would just pay off the TWA claim and keep the service going

Agreed. If the airline was making $20 million per year on the route, and is in a financially successful position (which AA is right now), then an estimated $16 million legal claim can easily be paid off and justified to shareholders.

Quoting uberflieger (Reply 115):
The 'New American' is a strong brand in all the right places to add a 2nd daily, reducing the operational cost. Instead, American's new LUS management is cancelling it.

I think common knowledge on A.net may have been wrong on this issue. The new AA is taking plenty of risks with respect to launching new international destinations, so this route probably did lose money.

I will posit an alternative scenario--someone mentioned that it takes two aircraft to run a daily flight to TLV from the East Coast of the US--which is that AA's management is either about to launch a new route that they think will be more successful using the aircraft normally reserved for TLV, or found a way to increase/enhance profitability on an existing route within the system using the aircraft
 
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DolphinAir747
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RE: AA To End PHL-TLV

Fri Aug 21, 2015 12:57 pm

Quoting IADCA (Reply 66):

Quoting strfyr51 (Reply 42):
DID YOU HUYS miss SOMETHING?? cODE SHARE WITH "EL AL"?? American isn't giving up JACK!! They're getting RID of the cost of plane and crews,Maintenance, customer Service, Rampers Baggage handling and customs added to facilities and code sharing with EL AL. They're getting money for Nothing !! Brilliant!! Meanwhikle We're still Sluggin' it out!!
at United.

YEAH, I mISSED "THE TIME" when CODE SHARES BECAME THE SANE AS JVS!! They're not the Same Thinklg!! And "EL AL" does not flie PHL to anyway!!

  
 
jetblue1965
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RE: AA To End PHL-TLV

Fri Aug 21, 2015 1:35 pm

there isn't some conspiracy theory. the announcement flies in the face of all that has been to us by management in previous statements.

sounded awfully similar to the speeches made when UA de-hubbed CLE or moved p.s. transcon from JFK
 
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enilria
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RE: AA To End PHL-TLV

Fri Aug 21, 2015 1:43 pm

Quoting DolphinAir747 (Reply 118):
or something political, EY/QR maybe.

It's definitely EY/QR since they aren't allowed to fly to Israel and have no effect whatsoever on AA's PHL-TLV traffic.   
 
EMB170
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RE: AA To End PHL-TLV

Fri Aug 21, 2015 1:44 pm

Perhaps it is not the case of PHL-TLV losing so much money as it is a case of the two aircraft required for this route being better utilized elsewhere. Thinking TATL, are there any other city pairs that:

(1) Would benefit from a "de novo" OW A332 roundtrip that don't currently have one (Ex: IAD-MAD, DTW-LHR?)
(2) Would benefit from an additional A332 roundtrip to supplement existing OW service (Ex: LAX-LHR?)
(3) Would benefit from upgauging to A332 equipment in order to free up a TATL-capable 757-200 for another route, such as IND-LHR or PIT-LHR?

The flight may not have been all that profitable, but the reason for its discontinuance may have more to do with the fact that more money could be made elsewhere...
IND ORD ATL MCO PIT EWR BUF CVG DEN RNO JFK DTW BOS BDL BWI IAD RDU CLT MYR CHS TPA CID MSP STL MSY DFW IAH AUS SLC LAS
 
HKG212
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RE: AA To End PHL-TLV

Fri Aug 21, 2015 2:00 pm

Quoting HNL (Reply 105):
The code shares ended because Israel ended up on the FAA naughty list (Category 2) which ended all United States based airlines from codeshares on airlines from Israel.

My point was about the FFP relationship, not code sharing...

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 110):

AA was forced to end its codeshare, so what would've been the point of keeping its FFP relationship?

For many commercial reasons unrelated to the FAA, and anyway, evidently some code shares remain, as the following statement from the original source says:

Quoting flyfree727 (Reply 29):
Customers can still access TLV through our joint business partner British Airways via London or through our codeshare relationship with El Al via our European gateways such as London, Paris, Madrid and Frankfurt.

So, if AA will claim to serve its customers going to TLV via LY codeshares, why not reinstate the FFP benefits?
 
ftzvika
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RE: AA To End PHL-TLV

Fri Aug 21, 2015 2:03 pm

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 113):

I don't think 20 Milion $$ is that amount money easy to pay back.
 
peanuts
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RE: AA To End PHL-TLV

Fri Aug 21, 2015 2:39 pm

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 101):
How does AA giving up a flight that's not from NYC, and probably only receives NYC feed via loss-leader.... empower DL, who is the smaller US player in the NYC-TLV market, into "owning more of NY"??

It's the entire context. AA isn't, at this time, moving it to JFK either. You'd think they would.

DL may be the smaller player in the NYC-TLV market. That's not the point. They are offering it as part of their huge network. AA? As it stands right now, they won't be in TLV in the near future.

This is not rocket science.
 
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ams747757
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RE: AA To End PHL-TLV

Fri Aug 21, 2015 2:56 pm

Wow, I'm pretty surprised by this. Sad to see the route go! Amazing that it wasn't making money if the load factors were good, especially in Business plus the freight.

Quoting jetsetter629 (Reply 114):
Quoting uberflieger (Reply 108):Summer 2016 I expect American to begin widebody metal swapping, with LUS crews/equipment flying out of LAA bases & vice versa.PHL-LHR is a prime 772 candidate (more premium seats), while the A330 is a better fit for seasonal MIA-FRA (less premium seats).I shall really be surprised, if Philly doesn't get a new TATL route for S16. My guess is DUS to tap into partner Airberlin's route network. I agree about the 772 being deployed on the PHL-LHR route an would love to see DUS added to the network. More TATL changes next summer I'm sure...

DUS would be nice, and seeing some 777s would be nice too.
 
ORDTLV2414
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RE: AA To End PHL-TLV

Fri Aug 21, 2015 3:27 pm

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 113):
DL found this out with their ATL-TLV

ATL and PHL are vastly different markets. I believe that ATL's goal was to service people going from South Florida to Israel but many people in S. Florida were AA FF's or just preferred it, so they'd use AA codeshare to fly up to JFK or maybe EWR to connect onward. MIA has a large Israeli expat population as well, which have different consumer patterns. Many Israeli expats swear by LY and will never fly anyone else to Israel.
 
ckfred
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RE: AA To End PHL-TLV

Fri Aug 21, 2015 3:28 pm

Reasons given from dropping PHL-TLV are all quite plausible. What doesn't make senses is management's claim that the route hasn't made money since starting in 2009.

A) Apparently, there are past comments from management saying the route was profitable. If someone can find a past comment from Parker, Kirby, or other senior US manager saying PHL-TLV was making money, then there is an issue that some shareholder or federal regulator might want to look into.

B) If the route didn't make money over the last 6 years, then why did it stick around for so long? As I mentioned earlier, prior AA management, going back to Bob Crandall, didn't exhibit a lot of patience with new routes. ORD-STN didn't last long. I seem to remember that AA flew from ORD to Moscow and a secondary city in Japan, and those routes lasted less than 18 months, because they didn't make sufficient return on the investment.

Parker got his start at AA under Crandall. Having started his career in the AA culture, I can't see Parker keeping around a route for 6 years than never made money.
 
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OA412
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RE: AA To End PHL-TLV

Fri Aug 21, 2015 3:30 pm

Quoting panamair (Reply 90):
I believe it's not 60million USD, but 60 million ILS (Israeli New Shekels), which is roughly US$16 million. If it was profitable, AA would have gladly paid that off.
Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 113):
If PHL-TLV was such a money maker, AA would just pay off the TWA claim and keep the service going. This leads me to believe that either 1) PHL-TLV is only marginal at best and not worth paying the claims or 2) PHL-TLV is just a big loser economically.

   I'm not understanding all of these bizarre conspiracy theories. The only explanation I can come up with is people not wanting to believe that they were misled about this route being a goldmine, or that they read way too much into Scott Kirby's comments about the route.

The route didn't make money and they're pulling it. $16 million is a drop in the bucket for AA. If the route was the goldmine it was made out to be, AA would gladly pay the money and move on. You don't walk away from a route that prints money.

Quoting klwright69 (Reply 99):
This is an interesting topic. The whole 6 years the flight has operated, it has been taken as an article of faith on a.net that this route was an absolute spectacular success. It was one of the star performers of the entire US network. Challenging and disputing this statement would really get you flamed here big time and get yelled at. It will be history soon.

Yup. For 6 years we've heard nothing other than PHL-TLV turns everything it touches to gold. Turns out, that was never true...

Quoting DolphinAir747 (Reply 109):
TLV is a hugely profitable TATL market.

You don't know that. None of us do. No one who has posted here has any actual data other than what Scott Kirby said at some investors day event. Unless you've seen the actual P & L figures, you don't know whether or not TLV is "hugely profitable." If it was so hugely profitable, AA wouldn't be dropping it.

Quoting USAirALB (Reply 41):
There were talks and rumors about a summer seasonal CLT-TLV, the majority of which came from US people at CLT.

I'm sure there was talk and rumors, but those should be taken with a grain of salt. With all due respect, the idea that CLT-TLV would ever happen, particularly in light of the seasonal Europe cutback after just one summer, is completely outside the realm of reason.

Quoting USAirALB (Reply 41):
And US @ CLTDL @ ATL. They both have their strengths and weaknesses. For example, US sees more flights and frequency to secondary destinations in the Northeast from CLT than DL does at ATL.

You're right, CLT isn't ATL. ATL is a larger airport, larger metro, and larger hub. For the foreseeable future, that's how things are going to be. CLT is great at what it does, but let's not pretend it's something it isn't. I've seen the argument vis-a-vis Northeast markets before. That doesn't prove that CLT is somehow a stronger hub or able to support TLV when ATL couldn't. First, DL has more hubs that can serve the NE than did US, so they didn't have to funnel as much through ATL. Second, US was historically stronger in the NE than was DL, so it's not that surprising that they continued to be seemingly stronger in that market from CLT than DL at ATL.

Quoting Compensateme (Reply 116):
The extent of "AA evaluating MIA-TLV" was mostly hype amongst our MIA-based posters.

What? You don't say!  
Quoting Compensateme (Reply 116):
I'm just flabbergasted at how many people think this is some giant conspiracy. There are oodles of routes that are underperforming that many on here have been mislead into believing are "printing money," for some reason or another. I don't doubt PHL-TLV was a money loser, AA evaluated moving it to another gateway but ultimately decided to end service.

Right there with you. People really should take anything they read on a.net with a grain of salt. The people who actually have access to P & L data, aren't posting it on a.net. Someone shouldn't be believed just because they're telling you a route is "printing money" because it has high load factors or high average fares. There is so much more that goes into it. But it is funny how much some people take certain posters words as gospels. I can think of one poster who doesn't work in the industry and yet has gotten a large number of people on this site to think he's some sort of industry insider...
Hughes Airwest - Top Banana In The West
 
IADCA
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RE: AA To End PHL-TLV

Fri Aug 21, 2015 3:33 pm

Quoting ORDTLV2414 (Reply 128):
ATL and PHL are vastly different markets. I believe that ATL's goal was to service people going from South Florida to Israel but many people in S. Florida were AA FF's or just preferred it, so they'd use AA codeshare to fly up to JFK or maybe EWR to connect onward. MIA has a large Israeli expat population as well, which have different consumer patterns. Many Israeli expats swear by LY and will never fly anyone else to Israel.

I hope you realize that everything you just posted could have been summarized with "I agree with you." You just gave the explanation for his assertion that, outside of a few gateways, there's not money to be made between U.S. and Israel, and especially not for U.S. carriers.
 
airbazar
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RE: AA To End PHL-TLV

Fri Aug 21, 2015 3:35 pm

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 113):
Either way, I think people grossly overstate the profitability of TLV service from the U.S

I'm not surprised at all. I doubt that U.S.-TLV non-stop makes money for anyone. These routes exist only due to pressure from Jewish lobbies.
 
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Polot
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RE: AA To End PHL-TLV

Fri Aug 21, 2015 3:46 pm

Quoting airbazar (Reply 132):
I'm not surprised at all. I doubt that U.S.-TLV non-stop makes money for anyone. These routes exist only due to pressure from Jewish lobbies.

It wouldn't surprise me if UA makes at least some money off of it- I don't see them operating it 2x daily otherwise.
 
jetblue1965
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RE: AA To End PHL-TLV

Fri Aug 21, 2015 3:50 pm

Quoting airbazar (Reply 132):
Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 113):
Either way, I think people grossly overstate the profitability of TLV service from the U.S

I'm not surprised at all. I doubt that U.S.-TLV non-stop makes money for anyone. These routes exist only due to pressure from Jewish lobbies.

It's frequently reported that UA's EWR-TLV is one of the hardest routes for upgrades to clear, usually implying relative high paid J loads (the other popular theory of course is too many cheap cash upgrade offers)

Hard to imagine UA (and previously CO) flying a 5700mi route TWICE daily for the sake of keeping lobbyists happy. This isn't EWR-CAE with a few RJs that won't really post material losses even if the planes were totally empty.

Quoting OA412 (Reply 130):

another blind person who believes every single word that is uttered by management. i guess even hindsight isn't 20/20 for some.
 
Flighty
Posts: 9963
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2007 3:07 am

RE: AA To End PHL-TLV

Fri Aug 21, 2015 3:53 pm

Quoting Ryanair01 (Reply 111):
US's TLV route is just a tiny bit too far to spin an aircraft in a 24 hour rotation. Against that background it isn't a surprise the route makes a loss, not because of revenue, but because of trying to carry the cost of two aircraft from one return daily flight. I think that is how come this route being cut.

Sorry, but that is not relevant. AA has a number of A330 aircraft operating in a flow pattern. It doesn't matter if a particular frame makes a roundtrip within 24 hours. It wouldn't ever be assigned to do so. Instead, it would go to Manchester or whatever station comes next in the pattern. Tails are NOT dedicated to specific city pairs.
 
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Polot
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RE: AA To End PHL-TLV

Fri Aug 21, 2015 4:19 pm

Quoting Flighty (Reply 135):
Sorry, but that is not relevant. AA has a number of A330 aircraft operating in a flow pattern. It doesn't matter if a particular frame makes a roundtrip within 24 hours. It wouldn't ever be assigned to do so. Instead, it would go to Manchester or whatever station comes next in the pattern. Tails are NOT dedicated to specific city pairs.

Huh? He is talking about how US's TLV schedule apparently requires two aircraft to maintain a daily operation, not that two aircraft are solely dedicated to the route. MAN, for example, only requires one aircraft to maintain a daily operation. If you cut the TLV route and schedule things around correctly you could potentially operate 2 new flights to 2 completely different (but closer) destinations instead with the same number of planes. If AA/US was to cut the pmUS MAN route then they can only open up 1 new flight with the freed up A330.

[Edited 2015-08-21 09:25:08]
 
jmc1975
Posts: 3072
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RE: AA To End PHL-TLV

Fri Aug 21, 2015 4:25 pm

Quoting HNL (Reply 105):
The code shares ended because Israel ended up on the FAA naughty list (Category 2) which ended all United States based airlines from codeshares on airlines from Israel.

In that case, how was B6 able to code-share with LY?
.......
 
Flighty
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RE: AA To End PHL-TLV

Fri Aug 21, 2015 4:30 pm

Quoting polot (Reply 136):
If you cut the TLV route and schedule things around correctly you could potentially operate 2 new flights to 2 completely different (but closer) destinations instead with the same number of planes.

That's what I am saying is false.

You can operate MAN and TLV (those 2 routes) with basically 2 aircraft as part of a greater flow. That's my point. Yes, TLV requires stealing a few hours of a/c time from another route. Which is totally possible at a hub like PHL, with many other A330 flights coming in.
 
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Polot
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RE: AA To End PHL-TLV

Fri Aug 21, 2015 4:36 pm

AA/LY first started the codeshare in late 2008, but it was launched about the same time that Israel was downgraded to category 2. AA could not put their code on LY's flights but LY could put their code on AA's. Israel was reinstated to cat 1 in November 2012, and the full codeshare (where AA put its code on LY's flight) resumed in March 2013. AA/LY ended their codeshare in Fall 2014, and about the same time B6/LY announced theirs.

Just to clear up any confusion in that regard.
 
usairways85
Posts: 4184
Joined: Fri Nov 16, 2001 11:59 am

RE: AA To End PHL-TLV

Fri Aug 21, 2015 4:37 pm

Quoting Flighty (Reply 138):
You can operate MAN and TLV (those 2 routes) with basically 2 aircraft as part of a greater flow. That's my point. Yes, TLV requires stealing a few hours of a/c time from another route. Which is totally possible at a hub like PHL, with many other A330 flights coming in.

But with PHL's limited network all of the 330 flights come and go at about the same time, except for the TLV arrival. There's not much for AA to do with a 332 in PHL at 7am.
 
washingtonflyer
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RE: AA To End PHL-TLV

Fri Aug 21, 2015 4:42 pm

Not true. US flies its 330s southwards at times - MCO, CUN, SJU.

One 332 that I took out of PHL to SJU was a bird that came in from TLV that morning.
 
jetblue1965
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RE: AA To End PHL-TLV

Fri Aug 21, 2015 4:43 pm

Quoting usairways85 (Reply 140):
There's not much for AA to do with a 332 in PHL at 7am.

they can always send them to either florida or another hub for a quick intra-day turn instead of letting it idle at PHL waiting for the evening european bank. that's what PMCO did when they sent flat beds on EWR-MCO
 
MAH4546
Posts: 26420
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RE: AA To End PHL-TLV

Fri Aug 21, 2015 4:48 pm

Quoting airbazar (Reply 132):
I'm not surprised at all. I doubt that U.S.-TLV non-stop makes money for anyone. These routes exist only due to pressure from Jewish lobbies.

Are you serious? Do you even realize how huge the United States-Israel market is? Tel Aviv is the second largest local long-haul market from New York, and one of the largest from Miami and Los Angeles.
a.
 
usairways85
Posts: 4184
Joined: Fri Nov 16, 2001 11:59 am

RE: AA To End PHL-TLV

Fri Aug 21, 2015 4:50 pm

Quoting washingtonflyer (Reply 141):
Not true. US flies its 330s southwards at times - MCO, CUN, SJU.

One 332 that I took out of PHL to SJU was a bird that came in from TLV that morning.
Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 142):
they can always send them to either florida or another hub for a quick intra-day turn instead of letting it idle at PHL waiting for the evening european bank. that's what PMCO did when they sent flat beds on EWR-MCO

I understand AA sends them to warm weather destinations, but flights to CUN & SJU are not going to command the same fares, especially in J, as an international route to a different continent.
 
klwright69
Posts: 2729
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2000 4:22 am

RE: AA To End PHL-TLV

Fri Aug 21, 2015 4:52 pm

Quoting airbazar (Reply 132):
Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 113):
Either way, I think people grossly overstate the profitability of TLV service from the U.S

I'm not surprised at all. I doubt that U.S.-TLV non-stop makes money for anyone. These routes exist only due to pressure from Jewish lobbies.

That is just nonsense. UA has had two daily 777's from EWR in the market forever. CO back then, kept serving TLV even when there were rocket attacks penetrating Israel.
 
toxtethogrady
Posts: 1861
Joined: Sat Dec 23, 2000 12:33 pm

RE: AA To End PHL-TLV

Fri Aug 21, 2015 4:53 pm

Quoting PlaneAdmirer (Reply 1):
There is nothing that compels AA or any other privately (not government owned but publicly traded in this case) to consistently lose money on a route.

Except incompetence.

How could they NOT make money flying to Tel Aviv?
 
Rdh3e
Posts: 3634
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2011 2:09 pm

RE: AA To End PHL-TLV

Fri Aug 21, 2015 4:57 pm

Quoting toxtethogrady (Reply 146):
How could they NOT make money flying to Tel Aviv?

Because it's Philadelphia... The local market size is roughly 40 PDEW, which is about 10% of the EWR size, and about 3% of the NYC size.

That forces high reliance on flow, thus lower revenues allocated to the segment, thus lower (in this case negative) profits.

It's not rocket science.
 
BigGSFO
Posts: 2278
Joined: Sun Jun 12, 2005 5:27 am

RE: AA To End PHL-TLV

Fri Aug 21, 2015 5:03 pm

Quoting toxtethogrady (Reply 146):
How could they NOT make money flying to Tel Aviv?

Long stage flight with deeply discounted fares and the front cabins mostly filled with elite upgrades. Tel Aviv isn't a high yielding market in spite of full planes, which was all know doesn't always translate into a profitable flight.
 
EMB170
Posts: 376
Joined: Fri Nov 09, 2007 1:16 pm

RE: AA To End PHL-TLV

Fri Aug 21, 2015 5:05 pm

Quoting washingtonflyer (Reply 141):
Not true. US flies its 330s southwards at times - MCO, CUN, SJU.

One 332 that I took out of PHL to SJU was a bird that came in from TLV that morning.

   An A332 I flew into PHL was the second half of an MCO turn that had come in from TLV that morning.
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