UAL Ground Handing: Who? And Where?

pu · Sat Aug 22, 2015 4:30 am

I'm trying to get something of a detailed picture on United's ground handling providers.

Does anyone have something like a master list that shows which stations use which vendors? In both above wing and/or below wing capacities?

I am especially interested in the hubs: ORD, IAH, DEN, EWR, IAD, SFO, LAX and Florida markets: MIA, FLL, PBI, MCO, TPA, SRQ, RSW. Also the seasonal mountain cities would be interesting...as would any other details for any city!

many thanks in advance!

Pu.

CO777DAL · Sat Aug 22, 2015 6:43 am

I know IAH and EWR are all UA mainline above and below wing because CO hubs were all mainline even at COEX gates and planes. The only gates at IAH that were not mainline employees were the ColganAir gates for CO Connection in Terminal A. I'm pretty sure MCO is all UA Mainline above and below wing as it was all CO mainline in the past. DFW, AUS, SAT, IAH should all be mainline again all old CO mainline stations. I think SAT was on the list to be outsourced under the wing.

UA444 · Sat Aug 22, 2015 8:35 am

Quoting CO777DAL (Reply 1):

The contract from when CO was around is no longer in effect. UA had a contract that stipulated that all stations that got mainline more than 6 months per year must be staffed by UA employees. It's amazing just how stupidly the IAM sold their membership down the river letting UA out source so many stations post merger. Some like SAT are no longer staffed by UA staff. Absolutely sickening.

[Edited 2015-08-22 01:38:33]

flyDTW1992 · Sat Aug 22, 2015 8:40 am

Not on your list, but at DTW it's ATS doing baggage/ramp handling, with ASIG for deicing and fuel. I'm not certain who's doing above the wing stuff now, last I knew it was still in house. It's such a tiny UA presence these days, they must've been pretty keen to dump mainline employees though. Total of 5 gates I believe, but they hardly need that many.

UA444 · Sat Aug 22, 2015 9:23 am

Quoting flyDTW1992 (Reply 3):

DTW is all outsourced.

pu · Sat Aug 22, 2015 12:57 pm

Thanks for the info so far. It's really amazing to me...UA ground employees are an endangered species. It seems mgmt would happily eliminate them entirely?

Pu.

[Edited 2015-08-22 06:13:00]

DualQual · Sat Aug 22, 2015 2:59 pm

Quoting pu (Reply 5):

Mgmt would as soon eliminate all employees, sell you a United branded ticket and have you complete your journey on Skywest and Luftansa. The savings on pay, benefits, training, etc would then be converted to executive bonuses.

COSPN · Sat Aug 22, 2015 4:55 pm

Some were kept but UA forced the employees to take a pay cut .. Really sad to declare war on your own employees and give millions to vendors ... Oh well new contract coming soon .. UA is making record profits .. With fuel lower than a snakes belly now

UA444 · Sat Aug 22, 2015 5:01 pm

Quoting COSPN (Reply 7):

They better go balls to the wall to protect the remaining stations and even bring some back for the next contract. How many stations do they even have left?

AirportRival · Sat Aug 22, 2015 5:31 pm

Envoy does the ground handling for United Express and the rare mainline at CVG.

COSPN · Sat Aug 22, 2015 5:47 pm

Not many 20 ??? Or 22. JFK will close soon.. MIA PBI DTW CMH STL MCI CVG BNA DSM and many more outsourced and DEN express fiasco with simplicity making the local news .. Google Denver outsourced United you can see the report

pu · Sat Aug 22, 2015 6:26 pm

Quoting AirportRival (Reply 9):
Envoy does the ground handling for United Express and the rare mainline at CVG.

It's really like United is a reseller of travel instead of an actual travel provider itself.

...but really I think this situation of paying a competitor should be a limited exception in small markets. The fact that when you buy a ticket on United part of the money goes to American (Envoy) really says a lot. It is saying AA can efficiently do ground handling but we can't. I know all the airlines do this to some extent, but it seems like it is a way of life at UA - a large part of the revenue they collect is automatically going to a vendor in almost every case.

I know both AA & DL are heavily into offering ground handling to 3rd parties via DGS and Envoy and Piedmont....
...but why doesn't UA do this much?

Pu.

N1120A · Sat Aug 22, 2015 6:33 pm

The real issue is on the customer service end. Outsourced stations are mostly incompetent. YYZ is a really sad example of that, where it basically went from amazing to completely f'ed overnight.

Quoting pu (Thread starter):
I am especially interested in the hubs: ORD, IAH, DEN, EWR, IAD, SFO, LAX

All of those are UA. Indeed, even Express handling at the top 25 stations has been/is being brought back in-house.

Quoting UA444 (Reply 2):
The contract from when CO was around is no longer in effect. UA had a contract that stipulated that all stations that got mainline more than 6 months per year must be staffed by UA employees. It's amazing just how stupidly the IAM sold their membership down the river letting UA out source so many stations post merger. Some like SAT are no longer staffed by UA staff. Absolutely sickening.

CO didn't have a contract - they were non-union.

The IAM protected the top 25 stations and the jobs of 100% of the sCO and sUA ground employees. They also had a provision for the agreements that have kept some stations in-house in exchange for concessions. It wasn't the best deal, but it wasn't as bad as they made it out to me.

Quoting pu (Reply 5):
Thanks for the info so far. It's really amazing to me...UA ground employees are an endangered species. It seems mgmt would happily eliminate them entirely?

They aren't an endangered species.

MaverickM11 · Sat Aug 22, 2015 6:41 pm

Quoting pu (Reply 11):
It's really like United is a reseller of travel instead of an actual travel provider itself.

Why is UA always singled out for this? Airlines like SQ and EK outsource just about anything that they can, while as you mentioned AA and DL have their handling companies, which is still outsourcing

Quoting pu (Reply 11):
I know both AA & DL are heavily into offering ground handling to 3rd parties via DGS and Envoy and Piedmont....
...but why doesn't UA do this much?

Isn't that what United Ground Express is all about? Monkey see (DL), monkey do

Quoting N1120A (Reply 12):
Outsourced stations are mostly incompetent. YYZ is a really sad example of that, where it basically went from amazing to completely f'ed overnight.

It's a mixed bag...ORD frontline staff is consistently dreadful, while OO FAs outperform just about any crew in the system

Quoting DualQual (Reply 6):
Mgmt would as soon eliminate all employees, sell you a United branded ticket and have you complete your journey on Skywest and Luftansa. The savings on pay, benefits, training, etc would then be converted to executive bonuses.

Reminds me of another Chicago based company. Outsource everything, pat yourself on the back for the innovative thinking, and then outsource the blame and responsibility when it all goes tits up

strfyr51 · Sat Aug 22, 2015 6:42 pm

The IAM gave in and United held out.. The IAM could have held out.
They could have really made a case but they chose NOT to. They took the money instead. You have to either be more resolute or SMARTER.
They seemed to be Neither.

N1120A · Sat Aug 22, 2015 6:47 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 13):
It's a mixed bag...ORD frontline staff is consistently dreadful, while OO FAs outperform just about any crew in the system

I don't mind ORD frontline staff, finding IAH, EWR and DEN the worst. LAX and IAD tend to be the best.

As for the second, are you kidding? I find OO's FAs to be the absolute worst anywhere, maybe even worse than sCO HOUCREW.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 13):
Isn't that what United Ground Express is all about? Monkey see (DL), monkey do

Actually, it makes sense. Lower costs while having more control over the product.

MaverickM11 · Sat Aug 22, 2015 6:52 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 15):
I don't mind ORD frontline staff, finding IAH, EWR and DEN the worst. LAX and IAD tend to be the best.

ORD is the only place I've had problems consistently; it's like they make the extra effort to make your life difficult. Some of the other ones can be incompetent or rude, but ORD goes the extra mile to be awful.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 15):
As for the second, are you kidding? I find OO's FAs to be the absolute worst anywhere, maybe even worse than sCO HOUCREW.

I've never had any issue with any UA crew, but ORD OO flights have always been above and beyond in professionalism and friendliness.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 15):
Actually, it makes sense. Lower costs while having more control over the product.

No kidding. AA and DL do it, but when UA does it, it's errrrmagerrrrd outsourcing!

N1120A · Sat Aug 22, 2015 6:59 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 16):
No kidding. AA and DL do it, but when UA does it, it's errrrmagerrrrd outsourcing!

Well - the type of outsourcing they have done up till now has been pretty awful. Giving credit to OO, they were about the only ones who UA ever outsourced handling to that did a decent job.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 16):
I've never had any issue with any UA crew, but ORD OO flights have always been above and beyond in professionalism and friendliness.

No way. OO FAs, in any base, tend to be the worst combination of lazy and fake sticklers. I'll never forget when they tried to pretend "FAA regulations" wouldn't allow a small bottle of water into seatback pockets, which was a giant pile of manure.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 16):
ORD is the only place I've had problems consistently; it's like they make the extra effort to make your life difficult. Some of the other ones can be incompetent or rude, but ORD goes the extra mile to be awful.

I'm generally only dealing with ORD staff in the RCC, so they tend to be good.

jetblastdubai · Sat Aug 22, 2015 7:08 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 12):
The IAM protected the top 25 stations

Why didn't the IAM vote to protect the jobs of all the union dues-paying members? What's so special about these 25 stations?

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 16):
ORD is the only place I've had problems consistently; it's like they make the extra effort to make your life difficult. Some of the other ones can be incompetent or rude, but ORD goes the extra mile to be awful.

It appears that IAM might have inadvertently allowed for the outsourcing of the wrong people.

airplan727 · Sat Aug 22, 2015 8:03 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 15):
I don't mind ORD frontline staff, finding IAH, EWR and DEN the worst. LAX and IAD tend to be the best.

This is off because I find ORD to provide the worst experience and DEN to be among the best. I'd be inclined to agree with the other ones you said. I've also usually had a good experience at SFO.

My most recent experience at ORD with an agent was when I was attempting to be VDB. She told me there was no way for me to get to DEN before 5 PM the next afternoon because all the flights were full non-stop and otherwise. I happen to on the phone with a United employee who was telling me I could get to COS the same evening because that flight was more than half empty which would have been plenty worth the trouble for $1000 in travel certs for my wife and I. I asked her to explore that option as well as a couple of others that were suggested to me and she would presumably pretend to look at availability and tell me that there was no space available. Naturally I didn't want to arrive as late the following day as she was willing to book so I didn't end up volunteering. They ended up denying 6 people involuntarily when I'm sure they could have gotten away much cheaper and with less angry people had she been willing to put a little effort into finding a different solution.

Many examples of this exist where many agents in ORD don't put forth any extra effort to satisfy. For the most part overall I get very good service where ever I am, but ORD is near the bottom.

MaverickM11 · Sat Aug 22, 2015 8:07 pm

Quoting jetblastdubai (Reply 18):
It appears that IAM might have inadvertently allowed for the outsourcing of the wrong people.

I can understand why they'd be beyond bitter between this merger and a decade + of UA cuts and jerking around, but don't take it out on the passenger

Quoting N1120A (Reply 17):
No way. OO FAs, in any base, tend to be the worst combination of lazy and fake sticklers. I'll never forget when they tried to pretend "FAA regulations" wouldn't allow a small bottle of water into seatback pockets, which was a giant pile of manure.

All of my flights whether for UA or DL have been top notch

OB1504 · Sat Aug 22, 2015 8:39 pm

Quoting pu (Thread starter):
I am especially interested in the hubs: ORD, IAH, DEN, EWR, IAD, SFO, LAX and Florida markets: MIA, FLL, PBI, MCO, TPA, SRQ, RSW. Also the seasonal mountain cities would be interesting...as would any other details for any city!

MIA was entirely outsourced in May. I'm not sure who the provider is, but I'm reasonably certain it's not Swissport. It might be Eulen, Triangle, or Ultra.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 17):
Well - the type of outsourcing they have done up till now has been pretty awful. Giving credit to OO, they were about the only ones who UA ever outsourced handling to that did a decent job.

UA likes to copy what other airlines do, but their trademark is either copying the wrong parts or botching the implementation like only they can.

COSPN · Sun Aug 23, 2015 1:12 pm

Yes they are starting AZO. United ground express in December ... Brilliant.

kgaiflyer · Sun Aug 23, 2015 3:25 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 20):
Quoting N1120A (Reply 17):No way. OO FAs, in any base, tend to be the worst combination of lazy and fake sticklers. I'll never forget when they tried to pretend "FAA regulations" wouldn't allow a small bottle of water into seatback pockets, which was a giant pile of manure.

All of my flights whether for UA or DL have been top notch

Just an observation.

On some Canada departures I've been on (DEN-YYC, ORD-YYC, SFO-YYC) the FAs seem to have a problem with *anything* put in the seat pockets (other than 'Hemisperes').

I'm sure someone else knows better than me why this is a policy or procedure.

[Edited 2015-08-23 09:12:32]

FWAERJ · Sun Aug 23, 2015 3:59 pm

FWA has seen its fair share of United Express ground handlers. It was Air Wisconsin for many years (dating back to the pre-1985 days of simple codesharing as opposed to the United Express network), then SkyWest after ZW stopped flying for UA, then Comair which turned into Regional Elite, and now DGS after Regional Elite was shut down. By contrast, AA has used Envoy at FWA since the mainline F100s stopped flying into FWA around 1994 or so.

One of my friends is a ground agent for DGS at FWA, handling both the DL and UA flights on the ramp. The UA and DL operations for DGS at FWA are right next door to each other, and the two airlines share behind-the-counter facilities. He said that sometimes, UA and DL flights have very different procedures for the same CRJ-200s, even though they may both be operated by SkyWest. UA and DL even mandate different fonts for passenger-facing signage - both FF Clan (UA's font) and Whitney (DL) are loaded onto the DGS backroom computers at FWA.

T5towbar · Sun Aug 23, 2015 4:31 pm

Some points of clarification are in order:

Quoting N1120A (Reply 12):
All of those are UA. Indeed, even Express handling at the top 25 stations has been/is being brought back in-house.

There are the seven hubs. THREE are wholly operated (ie: Express - protected till '18 - and ML are ORD; IAH; EWR)
The other four are split operated. IAD and DEN would likely be the candidates for the new ground handling affiliate, since there has been problems with the vendors. IIRC, SkyWest is handling SFO and LAX Express ops.

The rest of the 22 (as 23 as JFK will be gone) are mainline operated and handle whatever type of aircraft that comes in.
And SAT and IND took cuts to stay open.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 12):
CO didn't have a contract - they were non-union.

CO's ramp was union (for about a year and a half with the IBT). There was an election, and the IAM won it. CO's Passenger Service (ATW) was never union.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 12):
The IAM protected the top 25 stations and the jobs of 100% of the sCO and sUA ground employees. They also had a provision for the agreements that have kept some stations in-house in exchange for concessions. It wasn't the best deal, but it wasn't as bad as they made it out to me.

Correction: The literature that was passed around was supposed to be 96% job protection, with anyone after 4/06 hire date was at the mercy of whatever happened. Those people weren't protected by the two dates. The negotiators were outmaneuvered at the table, because they did not get the sUA folks a stand alone deal before going into joint talks. (They rectified that mistake when LUS - legacy US Airways IAM members - got a standalone deal before going into joint talks with the Association - IAM & TWU). They needed to be made right first, but they (the IAM) went right into joint talks after the representation elections, and leverage was lost. Hence, here we are........

Also, jobs were lost before the contract, as sCO Cargo was given up on a side letter by the IAM.

pu · Sun Aug 23, 2015 9:53 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 13):
Why is UA always singled out for this? Airlines like SQ and EK outsource just about anything that they can, while as you mentioned AA and DL have their handling companies, which is still outsourcing

Do SQ and EK outsource flying?
.
One thing I'd like to hear more about from people like Richard Anderson is a discussion of DGS. He's really big on how special Delta wants to be as an employer, big on profit-sharing, just big on taking care of employees......but then there is this large group of secret step-children who aren't so special, I guess, called DGS. I'd like to hear an explanation as to why we love "real" Delta employees and how great they are for customers, yet at the same time there are a lot of people earning a paycheck from Delta (masquerading as DGS) who don't get the love of "real" Delta employees - and of course many customers who don't get to experience "real" Delta employees throughout their entire journey.

There's some hypocrisy here.

Pu.

[Edited 2015-08-23 14:54:28]

N1120A · Mon Aug 24, 2015 12:37 am

Quoting jetblastdubai (Reply 18):
Why didn't the IAM vote to protect the jobs of all the union dues-paying members? What's so special about these 25 stations?

They are the 25 largest stations, and employ the vast majority of the workforce.

Quoting T5towbar (Reply 25):
The other four are split operated. IAD and DEN would likely be the candidates for the new ground handling affiliate, since there has been problems with the vendors. IIRC, SkyWest is handling SFO and LAX Express ops.

The split express ops are being brought back in.

Quoting T5towbar (Reply 25):
CO's ramp was union (for about a year and a half with the IBT). There was an election, and the IAM won it. CO's Passenger Service (ATW) was never union.

CSR is what I'm talking about.

Quoting pu (Reply 26):
Do SQ and EK outsource flying?

Do those airlines operate to tiny stations with high frequency?

pu · Mon Aug 24, 2015 1:40 am

Quoting T5towbar (Reply 25):

Many thanks.

Pu

[Edited 2015-08-23 18:45:46]

Cubsrule · Mon Aug 24, 2015 2:03 am

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 13):
Airlines like SQ and EK outsource just about anything that they can, while as you mentioned AA and DL have their handling companies, which is still outsourcing

SQ and EK outsource, but when was the last time you had terrible treatment from a SQ or EK contractor?

CALTECH · Mon Aug 24, 2015 6:49 pm

Quoting CO777DAL (Reply 1):
I'm pretty sure MCO is all UA Mainline above and below wing as it was all CO mainline in the past.

It is now all UAL, but before the merger, the Continental ramp was operated by DGS. Thankfully, they were replaced this summer.

Quoting jetblastdubai (Reply 18):
Why didn't the IAM vote to protect the jobs of all the union dues-paying members? What's so special about these 25 stations?

What is so special is that these 25 stations had more votes than all the others, and that is all it took. It protected the hubs and bigger stations, but left the smaller stations at the mercy of bean counters.

Quoting T5towbar (Reply 25):

CO's ramp was union (for about a year and a half with the IBT). There was an election, and the IAM won it. CO's Passenger Service (ATW) was never union.

Thanks for correcting the misinformed post and poster.

Quoting T5towbar (Reply 25):
Also, jobs were lost before the contract, as sCO Cargo was given up on a side letter by the IAM.

United had outsourced it's cargo operation, writing was on the wall for the Continental Cargo employees.

jetblastdubai · Mon Aug 24, 2015 7:00 pm

Quoting CALTECH (Reply 30):
What is so special is that these 25 stations had more votes than all the others, and that is all it took. It protected the hubs and bigger stations, but left the smaller stations at the mercy of bean counters.

Do I have this right? The hub and bigger station IAM members voted to take their 40 pieces of silver (signing bonus) and stab their other dues-paying members in the back by agreeing to allow them to be outsourced and now the IAM is complaining that the smaller stations are being outsourced?

What did they think was going to happen?

CALTECH · Tue Aug 25, 2015 2:45 am

Quoting jetblastdubai (Reply 31):
Do I have this right? The hub and bigger station IAM members voted to take their 40 pieces of silver (signing bonus) and stab their other dues-paying members in the back by agreeing to allow them to be outsourced and now the IAM is complaining that the smaller stations are being outsourced?

What did they think was going to happen?

Yes you do. It was right there, in print, in the Tentative Agreement that was ratified.

The IAM took it to the members for a vote.

jetblastdubai · Fri Aug 28, 2015 12:48 pm

August 27, 2015 - From the article:

"The National Labor Relations Board (NLRB) on Thursday handed down one of its biggest decisions of President Obama’s tenure, ruling that companies can be held responsible for labor violations committed by their contractors.

The NLRB ruling is a sharp departure from previous decisions that stated companies were only responsible for employees who were under their direct control. Without the power to set hours, wages or job responsibilities, the earlier rulings held, companies could not be held responsible for the labor practices of the contractors."

http://thehill.com/regulation/labor/...-issues-controversial-labor-ruling

COSPN · Fri Aug 28, 2015 12:51 pm

So the IAM can bring the vendors under the ramp contract if they touch UA mainline ?

burnsie28 · Fri Aug 28, 2015 1:13 pm

While Delta does have DGS, a good chunk of stations still see mainline above wing. Some still see both above and below.

Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 24):
both FF Clan (UA's font) and Whitney (DL) are loaded onto the DGS backroom computers at FWA.

Thats interesting they have Whitney because that is something that isn't given out. First station that I heard of that has it.

jetblastdubai · Fri Aug 28, 2015 2:27 pm

Quoting COSPN (Reply 34):
So the IAM can bring the vendors under the ramp contract if they touch UA mainline ?

This article explains it better.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/danielfi...ferris-a-joint-employer-whos-next/

F9Animal · Sat Aug 29, 2015 3:51 am

Wait... UA has its own ground handling contract that is similar to DL and DGS? What is the name of it?

Is UA still handled by mainline in SEA? LAS?

Saddens me to see UA outsourcing so much. Any idea how safe DEN is?

United1 · Sat Aug 29, 2015 4:18 am

Quoting F9Animal (Reply 37):

Wait... UA has its own ground handling contract that is similar to DL and DGS? What is the name of it?

United Ground Express

Quoting F9Animal (Reply 37):
s UA still handled by mainline in SEA? LAS?

Yes...

Quoting F9Animal (Reply 37):
Saddens me to see UA outsourcing so much. Any idea how safe DEN is?

Very....the outsourced UAX operations will probably switch to UGE at some point.

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