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Italianflyer
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RAH 2 Pilots: last, best offer

Sat Aug 22, 2015 3:49 pm

(Note: this did not appear in my initial search so sorry if it's being discussed in another thread. I'm getting leery of starting posts on here bit thought this was important.)

I'm reading the WSJ this morning and saw in the 'B' section that RAH has presented it's 'last, best offer' to the pilot group IBT Local 357. Interestingly enough they have also retained Seabury Group to "explore all options" related to restructuring finances. A thinly vailed threat oh Chapter 11 perhaps?

They support regional flying for every legacy in the country how do you see this playing out?
http://worldairlinenews.com/2015/08/...est-and-final-offer-to-its-pilots/
 
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LAXintl
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RAH 2 Pilots: last, best offer

Sat Aug 22, 2015 3:57 pm

Company has set up a website with details of the offer including comparison to OALs.

http://myrjetcontract.com/

=
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brooklynchris13
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RAH 2 Pilots: last, best offer

Sat Aug 22, 2015 4:02 pm

"The other path is a non-consensual restructuring in which we no longer control our destiny. It is a difficult and unwelcome choice, but it is better than remaining stuck at this frustrating crossroads. “Stuck” is a slow, irreversible spiral into a failed company that cannot keep its promises to its people, its partners or its passengers. We cannot – and will not – stand by while that scenario plays out." (From the website describing the contract)

Thanks for posting this, very interesting... But I have to say I do not think that classifies as thinly veiled...
"Be the change you want to see in the world" (mg)
 
SonomaFlyer
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RAH 2 Pilots: last, best offer

Sat Aug 22, 2015 4:30 pm

The regionals can't staff the planes they have. It will only get worse with the retirement trend going up and influx of new pilots going down.

How will this play out, especially with the whole thing now tossed on the web rather than through the pilot MEC...
 
mmo
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RAH 2 Pilots: last, best offer

Sat Aug 22, 2015 4:40 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 1):
Company has set up a website with details of the offer including comparison to OALs.

Boy, it's a desperate sign when the company has to negotiate in the media!

Quoting ItalianFlyer (Thread starter):
A thinly vailed threat oh Chapter 11 perhaps?

Veiled or not, there is absolutely no guarantee the BK court would abrogate the contracts. It is as much of a crap shoot for the company as it is for the union with nothing for certain on either side.
If we weren't all crazy we'd all go insane!
 
ScottB
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RAH 2 Pilots: last, best offer

Sat Aug 22, 2015 5:03 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 1):
Company has set up a website with details of the offer including comparison to OALs.

http://myrjetcontract.com/

Well, now I can see one of the key reasons why the pilots have been rejecting the contract. The captain rates, for example, go up anywhere from about $7.50 to $11 an hour -- but let's call it about $9 on average. However, the health care costs for pilots on the company's current PPO plan will go through the roof -- $7,750 for a pilot with a family. If you assume a captain flies about 900 hours in a year, the net increase of $8,100 in pay is almost entirely eaten up by the increase in health insurance cost.

It's even worse if that pilot ends up having a big claim -- like, for example, the birth of a child (which would be common for pilots at that stage in their careers) -- they could end up with a net decrease in income of a few thousand dollars.

The annual increases over the life of the contract are also pretty disappointing since they look like they're 1% per year which lags the Federal Reserve's target for inflation of 2%. And given RAH's history of dragging its feet in contract negotiations, the pilots have to consider that the pay rate in year 4 may very well be the pay rate in year 10 as well.

Quoting SonomaFlyer (Reply 3):
The regionals can't staff the planes they have. It will only get worse with the retirement trend going up and influx of new pilots going down.

Yeah, RAH's most serious problem right now is that they can't get new pilots in the door to replace the ones which are leaving. The not-so-veiled threat of a "non-consensual restructuring" rings somewhat hollow. The logical consequences of a bankruptcy would first be that the company imposes a contract -- but if they impose a crummy contract, they will still have severe difficulties in hiring. If the company reduces its flying in a bankruptcy, the market remains excellent for pilots -- and the bankruptcy will taint the company's ability to hire new pilots.
 
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jetblastdubai
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RAH 2 Pilots: last, best offer

Sat Aug 22, 2015 5:31 pm

Quoting ScottB (Reply 5):
However, the health care costs for pilots on the company's current PPO plan will go through the roof -- $7,750 for a pilot with a family. If you assume a captain flies about 900 hours in a year, the net increase of $8,100 in pay is almost entirely eaten up by the increase in health insurance cost.

Looks like the 'chickens' came home to roost!

http://teamster.org/content/teamsters-endorse-barack-obama

http://dailycaller.com/2013/07/11/an...ct-on-members-healthcare-coverage/

Who didn't see this coming....oh wait....
 
flyby519
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RAH 2 Pilots: last, best offer

Sat Aug 22, 2015 7:25 pm

The threat of bankruptcy is so ridiculous! How is it that RAH can have a prosperous future with this new contract while apparently giving all sorts of great pay raises and benefit increases, but remaining on the current contract rates would cause them to file Ch11? This is a time of pilot shortages, record profits, low oil, and all of the labor groups should share in that success.

Didn't Sun Country try this same thing with the BK threat?

[Edited 2015-08-22 12:26:03]
 
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northwestEWR
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RAH 2 Pilots: last, best offer

Sat Aug 22, 2015 8:05 pm

Quoting ScottB (Reply 5):
Well, now I can see one of the key reasons why the pilots have been rejecting the contract. The captain rates, for example, go up anywhere from about $7.50 to $11 an hour -- but let's call it about $9 on average. However, the health care costs for pilots on the company's current PPO plan will go through the roof -- $7,750 for a pilot with a family. If you assume a captain flies about 900 hours in a year, the net increase of $8,100 in pay is almost entirely eaten up by the increase in health insurance cost.

It's even worse if that pilot ends up having a big claim -- like, for example, the birth of a child (which would be common for pilots at that stage in their careers) -- they could end up with a net decrease in income of a few thousand dollars.

The annual increases over the life of the contract are also pretty disappointing since they look like they're 1% per year which lags the Federal Reserve's target for inflation of 2%. And given RAH's history of dragging its feet in contract negotiations, the pilots have to consider that the pay rate in year 4 may very well be the pay rate in year 10 as well.

That is a ridiculously terrible contract. I'd reject that too. Republic either needs to figure out how to pay their people competitively or they're headed down the tubes.
Northwest Airlines - Now You're Flying Smart
 
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usxguy
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RAH 2 Pilots: last, best offer

Sat Aug 22, 2015 8:36 pm

No, Sun Country threatened to SHUT DOWN, not file Chap 11... big difference.
xx
 
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Aesma
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RAH 2 Pilots: last, best offer

Sat Aug 22, 2015 10:26 pm

Quoting jetblastdubai (Reply 6):
Looks like the 'chickens' came home to roost!

http://teamster.org/content/teamsters-endorse-barack-obama

http://dailycaller.com/2013/07/11/an...ct-on-members-healthcare-coverage/

Who didn't see this coming....oh wait....

I don't understand the US health care system most of the time, but I really don't get this. That small companies that didn't offer health care have now more costs is pretty easy to understand, but what would explain such an increase ? Especially considering it doesn't seem to offer that great a coverage if the birth of a child sets you back several thousands. In France having a child is not just free, you even get money, from the state or from your company ! And then tax cuts.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
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northwestEWR
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RAH 2 Pilots: last, best offer

Sat Aug 22, 2015 10:37 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 10):
I don't understand the US health care system most of the time, but I really don't get this. That small companies that didn't offer health care have now more costs is pretty easy to understand, but what would explain such an increase ? Especially considering it doesn't seem to offer that great a coverage if the birth of a child sets you back several thousands. In France having a child is not just free, you even get money, from the state or from your company ! And then tax cuts.

That's the ridiculous and horrible situation for health care in America right now. It's absolutely disgusting and we can thank our worthless politicians for doing nothing but taking health care lobby money.
Northwest Airlines - Now You're Flying Smart
 
rbavfan
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RAH 2 Pilots: last, best offer

Sat Aug 22, 2015 11:42 pm

It would be nice to see Republic instead of RAH. A lot of people don't know what RAH stands for and have to guess. I have never heard them called that before!
 
DashTrash
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RAH 2 Pilots: last, best offer

Sun Aug 23, 2015 2:11 am

Quoting rbavfan (Reply 12):
It would be nice to see Republic instead of RAH. A lot of people don't know what RAH stands for and have to guess. I have never heard them called that before!

Republic was a DC-9, Convair, 727 and 757 operator that was absorbed by Northwest Orient when I was in middle school. RAH is a poorly run, bottom feeding holding company that runs a couple of crappy regional airlines.
 
Alias1024
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RAH 2 Pilots: last, best offer

Sun Aug 23, 2015 2:54 am

Quoting rbavfan (Reply 12):


RAH is correct. Republic Airways Holdings has two airlines, Republic and Shuttle America, and until recently had a third, Chautauqua. To show that this would apply to all pilots, not just those on the Republic certificate, specifying the holding company is appropriate.
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flyDTW1992
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RAH 2 Pilots: last, best offer

Sun Aug 23, 2015 3:03 am

Quoting DashTrash (Reply 13):
epublic was a DC-9, Convair, 727 and 757 operator that was absorbed by Northwest Orient when I was in middle school. RAH is a poorly run, bottom feeding holding company that runs a couple of crappy regional airlines.

That's a terrible thing to say about a company with thousands of great employees that happen to be under the leadership of a rather unfortunate corporate executive team. Training, safety, maintenance, and flight operations at RAH are second to none in the regional industry, and there are great people who run the airline day-to-day. Yes, the pilot contract and labor issues are highly unfortunate and senior are certainly not doing what needs to be done, that doesn't mean you can bad mouth the thousands of professionals that work hard at that company every day.
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sxf24
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RAH 2 Pilots: last, best offer

Sun Aug 23, 2015 3:11 am

Quoting ScottB (Reply 5):

Well, now I can see one of the key reasons why the pilots have been rejecting the contract. The captain rates, for example, go up anywhere from about $7.50 to $11 an hour -- but let's call it about $9 on average. However, the health care costs for pilots on the company's current PPO plan will go through the roof -- $7,750 for a pilot with a family. If you assume a captain flies about 900 hours in a year, the net increase of $8,100 in pay is almost entirely eaten up by the increase in health insurance cost.

It's even worse if that pilot ends up having a big claim -- like, for example, the birth of a child (which would be common for pilots at that stage in their careers) -- they could end up with a net decrease in income of a few thousand dollars.

You've chosen to only discuss ONE health plan option. RAH is offering 3, including a high deductible plan with a Health Savings Account (HSA) from the company. This is a pretty option in today's environment and is effectively a no-cost plan for those that only use preventative care.

It is unreasonable in the US to expect health care with no out of pocket costs and pay increases that outpace inflation.
 
flyDTW1992
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RAH 2 Pilots: last, best offer

Sun Aug 23, 2015 3:14 am

Quoting sxf24 (Reply 16):

You've chosen to only discuss ONE health plan option. RAH is offering 3, including a high deductible plan with a Health Savings Account (HSA) from the company. This is a pretty option in today's environment and is effectively a no-cost plan for those that only use preventative care.

That's a very good point. That "PHP" is by no means a bad option in today's environment, ESPECIALLY for the 22 year olds out of school that RAH needs to hire as FOs.
Now you're flying smart
 
BestWestern
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RAH 2 Pilots: last, best offer

Sun Aug 23, 2015 4:41 am

The problem that RAH has is they have to bid for flying contracts - and need lowest costs possible - just like third party handling and maintenance firms. Lowest cost tends to win as we all know.
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Mir
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RAH 2 Pilots: last, best offer

Sun Aug 23, 2015 4:49 am

Quoting flyDTW1992 (Reply 15):
That's a terrible thing to say about a company with thousands of great employees that happen to be under the leadership of a rather unfortunate corporate executive team. Training, safety, maintenance, and flight operations at RAH are second to none in the regional industry, and there are great people who run the airline day-to-day. Yes, the pilot contract and labor issues are highly unfortunate and senior are certainly not doing what needs to be done, that doesn't mean you can bad mouth the thousands of professionals that work hard at that company every day.

How is saying the airline is poorly-run badmouthing the people who work there? I've got no issue with the people who work there, but the simple fact of the matter is that the management there has been one of the leaders in the regional race to the bottom, and they've thoroughly failed to address the issues facing the airline so that it can continue to operate. And yes, they are crappy regional airlines - they can't run their schedule properly, they have very high cancellation numbers, etc. And their pay and working conditions, at least on the pilot side, are arguably the worst among their peers. That all adds up to a pretty crappy airline. None of which is the fault of the front-line employees, of course, but that doesn't make it any less true.

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ScottB
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RAH 2 Pilots: last, best offer

Sun Aug 23, 2015 6:17 am

Quoting sxf24 (Reply 16):
You've chosen to only discuss ONE health plan option. RAH is offering 3, including a high deductible plan with a Health Savings Account (HSA) from the company.

No, I made an apples-to-apples comparison. If a pilot were to choose the high deductible plan, they're receiving a less valuable health coverage option than the status quo (and their increased costs for health coverage still eat up part of the pay increase). It is absolutely valid to compare total compensation under the current contract and the new contract.

Quoting sxf24 (Reply 16):
It is unreasonable in the US to expect health care with no out of pocket costs and pay increases that outpace inflation.

No one has said that the pilots should expect no out-of-pocket costs. But the company is pushing the idea that the pay increases make it a great contract when the substantial increases in health insurance costs mean that many pilots will see no meaningful increase in total compensation. And the pay increases don't outpace inflation; they lag the Federal Reserve's inflation targets.
 
sxf24
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RAH 2 Pilots: last, best offer

Sun Aug 23, 2015 1:44 pm

Quoting ScottB (Reply 20):
No one has said that the pilots should expect no out-of-pocket costs. But the company is pushing the idea that the pay increases make it a great contract when the substantial increases in health insurance costs mean that many pilots will see no meaningful increase in total compensation. And the pay increases don't outpace inflation; they lag the Federal Reserve's inflation targets.

That, unfortunately, is reality. I'm pretty sure RAH would go bankrupt if it provided a package with a Cadillac health plan and pay increases that outpaced inflation. Perhaps a sad commentary on the regional industry, but reality nonetheless.
 
BestWestern
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RAH 2 Pilots: last, best offer

Sun Aug 23, 2015 2:00 pm

This is the reality of an outsourced model - where the inputs of abc corp are the same as xyz corp. it's the same for baggage handling, maintenance and RJ flying where those with the lowest costs win. Staff are the biggest loser.
Greetings from Hong Kong.... a subsidiary of China Inc.
 
ScottB
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RAH 2 Pilots: last, best offer

Sun Aug 23, 2015 3:28 pm

Quoting sxf24 (Reply 21):
That, unfortunately, is reality. I'm pretty sure RAH would go bankrupt if it provided a package with a Cadillac health plan and pay increases that outpaced inflation. Perhaps a sad commentary on the regional industry, but reality nonetheless.

Upper management has given itself pay increases over the past three years which far outpace inflation and you can bet money that they've got a Cadillac health plan. If the company is in danger of going broke then they need to lead by example.

Except reality is that the company isn't going broke. They can't get enough pilots in to staff the flying they've contracted to do because their compensation package is crappy. So... the solution is to replace that with another crappy contract that doesn't increase total compensation?

It seems like the larger danger is that the company will fail to meet the targets which trigger executive bonus payments rather than going bankrupt -- unless management chooses to have a profitable company file for Chapter 11 reorganization. But honestly, they think that will make it easier to hire pilots? Not likely.
 
bostonmike
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RAH 2 Pilots: last, best offer

Sun Aug 23, 2015 3:55 pm

Within the LBFO from RAH is the following "new" section of the contract:

"Article 3, Section O
Consistent with past practice, and by way of clarification, the Company may continue to offer incentives including but not limited to signing bonus, candidate transitional training, and stipends to new hire pilot candidates, new hire trainees, and/or recruits, before or during new hire training."

The "past practice" of offering signing bonuses during active negotiations has been challenged in court by the IBT local as a breach of status quo.

Does the above article open the door to a new ab initio program of training pilots for RAH? As I understand the Lufthansa program, there is a long term loan associated with the training. Someone can clarify that if I am mistaken. RAH is building a new multi-million dollar training facility in Indianapolis.

Servitude for training has been rejected by the courts but could this be a different structure?
All I know is that the LBFO offered to the pilots has holes big enough to fly a C Series jetliner through them.
 
Cubsrule
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RAH 2 Pilots: last, best offer

Sun Aug 23, 2015 5:46 pm

Quoting ScottB (Reply 20):
But the company is pushing the idea that the pay increases make it a great contract when the substantial increases in health insurance costs mean that many pilots will see no meaningful increase in total compensation.

But it's not a substantial increase in healthcare costs for all employees. For those with very healthcare costs or very high healthcare costs, high-deductible plans are typically a good deal, and many new RW pilots are young and don't use a lot of healthcare.
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LAXintl
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RAH 2 Pilots: last, best offer

Sun Aug 23, 2015 6:07 pm

Quoting ScottB (Reply 5):
The annual increases over the life of the contract are also pretty disappointing since they look like they're 1% per year which lags the Federal Reserve's target for inflation of 2%.

Using Fed inflation target is a rather useless as is using any economic growth target. Every institution can publish targets where they have anything to do with reality or not.

The reality is the US economy is no where near 2% inflation, matter of fact we might end up with zero or negative inflation this year again.

So far annualized inflation rate per BLS for 2015.
Jan- (-0.1)
Feb- 0.0
Mar- (-0.1)
Apr- (-0.2)
May- 0.0
Jun- 0.1

US wage growth is anemic at best having rise only 2% in the last 5-years, so even a contract that offers 1% increase is likely ahead of the game in regards to what is truly happening in the real world and workplaces.

[Edited 2015-08-23 11:14:54]
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
ScottB
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RE: RAH 2 Pilots: Last, Best Offer

Sun Aug 23, 2015 6:43 pm

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 25):
For those with very healthcare costs or very high healthcare costs, high-deductible plans are typically a good deal

High-deductible plans can be a good deal, but not always. And for a pilot with a family with $10,000 or more in claims for the year (like, for example, the birth of a child), the net increase in costs would likely eat up the entire pay increase and more. But the point in the end is that for a large chunk of the pilots, the new contract isn't anywhere near as generous as it looks.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 26):
US wage growth is anemic at best having rise only 2% in the last 5-years, so even a contract that offers 1% increase is likely ahead of the game in regards to what is truly happening in the real world and workplaces.

Being a pilot is an in-demand profession, and consequently wages ought to increase to reflect the fact that the supply of pilots isn't meeting the demand for their labor. Executive management's compensation at RAH has far outpaced inflation over the past three years.
 
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LAXintl
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RE: RAH 2 Pilots: Last, Best Offer

Sun Aug 23, 2015 7:00 pm

Quoting ScottB (Reply 27):
Being a pilot is an in-demand profession, and consequently wages ought to increase to reflect the fact that the supply of pilots isn't meeting the demand for their labor.

Pilots do get a predictable step raise each and every year as they work up the ladder in seniority until they top out.
Something most Americans cant do in their jobs.

But, yes indeed let supply and demand rule the equation.

In such case lets throw out contracts entirely as labor agreements simply distort supply/demand by imposing artificial barriers to pay. Let airline companies go out and hire on the open market as they feel. If they can hire for $30k/year, 40k, or 50k to start let me market decide in the same manner wages for most jobs in society are determined.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
ScottB
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RE: RAH 2 Pilots: Last, Best Offer

Sun Aug 23, 2015 9:30 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 28):
Pilots do get a predictable step raise each and every year as they work up the ladder in seniority until they top out.
Something most Americans cant do in their jobs.

I'm not sure I agree with the "most Americans" part of that although perhaps I would if you were to qualify that with "in high-paying white-collar jobs." But in the end it's very hard to tie pilot pay to merit in any way since a pilot is going to be safe or not safe -- it's preferable to not have pilots cut corners in the hope of getting a larger merit increase.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 28):
In such case lets throw out contracts entirely as labor agreements simply distort supply/demand by imposing artificial barriers to pay. Let airline companies go out and hire on the open market as they feel. If they can hire for $30k/year, 40k, or 50k to start let me market decide in the same manner wages for most jobs in society are determined.

I don't disagree with that, and SkyWest has managed to maintain a non-union pilot group. To some degree the presence of the pilots' union at Republic is a failure of management since they didn't manage to keep the pilot group happy enough to keep the union out.

I think the market is working today in that carriers offering better pay or quality of life are getting enough pilots to fly their schedules. And Republic's management seems to be reaping the rewards they have sowed by dragging out negotiations for a contract replacing the one inked in 2003 and which became amendable in 2007.
 
Cubsrule
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RE: RAH 2 Pilots: Last, Best Offer

Mon Aug 24, 2015 1:46 am

Quoting ScottB (Reply 27):
High-deductible plans can be a good deal, but not always. And for a pilot with a family with $10,000 or more in claims for the year (like, for example, the birth of a child), the net increase in costs would likely eat up the entire pay increase and more.

What you're missing, I think, is that the high deductible plans provide choice. One of the (unintended?) consequences of the ACA is that premiums are going up really quickly for a lot of group plans, and I don't see any reason why the company should bear all of that cost. High-deductible plans lessen the sting of cost increases for some subset of employees. Most of the new pilots aren't in a terribly high tax bracket, but you shouldn't forget that with a high-deductible plan, the deductible can be paid with pre-tax money, and with a PPO or similar, it's almost always paid with post-tax money.

You keep bringing up having a child as an example of large expense. That's an easy "problem" to solve since an employee who is going to have a child has a lot of warning. She can just switch to the PPO for a year if the cost differential is an issue. The bigger problem is something like a sports injury (say a torn ACL) that is a similar price but is neither planned nor anticipated.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
ScottB
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RE: RAH 2 Pilots: Last, Best Offer

Mon Aug 24, 2015 2:44 am

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 30):
You keep bringing up having a child as an example of large expense. That's an easy "problem" to solve since an employee who is going to have a child has a lot of warning. She can just switch to the PPO for a year if the cost differential is an issue. The bigger problem is something like a sports injury (say a torn ACL) that is a similar price but is neither planned nor anticipated.

No, actually the net cost between the plans of a childbirth actually isn't that huge -- a couple of thousand dollars. I bring it up more because the net cost to the employee under the new contract eats up nearly the entire pay increase, if not more, as compared to what the employee would have paid under the old contract.

And one might be able to switch to the PPO with good planning of the pregnancy; however the nature of annual enrollment periods might mean falling outside the window to change plans if a pregnancy is unplanned.

But my point is not about whether the pilots should or should not pay more for their health insurance. The point is that management (as they ought to do in their own best interest) promotes charts showing a big increase in hourly pay for the pilots. My point is that it's very understandable that the pilots would reject a contract which offers very little increase in total remuneration (salary+benefits) compared to the current contract which was signed over a decade ago and became amendable in 2007.
 
Cubsrule
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RE: RAH 2 Pilots: Last, Best Offer

Mon Aug 24, 2015 2:49 am

Quoting ScottB (Reply 31):
My point is that it's very understandable that the pilots would reject a contract which offers very little increase in total remuneration (salary+benefits) compared to the current contract which was signed over a decade ago and became amendable in 2007.

I'm not sure there's a way to quantify this, but I suspect that there is a large population of fungible white-collar workers (i.e. educated folks who aren't executives) whose real pay hasn't gone up much in the past decade. And, at least pilots get an annual raise under both the old contract and the various proposals.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
Flighty
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RE: RAH 2 Pilots: Last, Best Offer

Mon Aug 24, 2015 2:52 am

I can remember 10-15 years ago, airlines had gold plated health plans. I guess most big employers did. It is sad to read that is no longer true.   
 
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northwestEWR
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RE: RAH 2 Pilots: Last, Best Offer

Mon Aug 24, 2015 3:34 am

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 32):
I'm not sure there's a way to quantify this, but I suspect that there is a large population of fungible white-collar workers (i.e. educated folks who aren't executives) whose real pay hasn't gone up much in the past decade. And, at least pilots get an annual raise under both the old contract and the various proposals.

I think the part you're missing is that the pilots aren't being compared to the rest of the working class, they're compared against other pilots at other companies which have substantially better new contracts in place.

If I get a $20/hour raise but my healthcare costs go up $15/hour, that's a net $5/hour increase. Which for some people in today's economy would be a welcome raise!

But there are other pilot groups out there who are getting a much better overall package and that's what the Republic pilots are seeing. They simply want an industry-competitive deal and frankly they deserve it.

Does that make sense?
Northwest Airlines - Now You're Flying Smart
 
N353SK
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RE: RAH 2 Pilots: Last, Best Offer

Mon Aug 24, 2015 3:58 am

Quoting BostonMike (Reply 24):
Does the above article open the door to a new ab initio program of training pilots for RAH? As I understand the Lufthansa program, there is a long term loan associated with the training. Someone can clarify that if I am mistaken. RAH is building a new multi-million dollar training facility in Indianapolis.

I think it does. It's so vague it probably allows them to give potential trainees seniority numbers before they are actually hired, which would be a very dangerous precedent.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 30):
Most of the new pilots aren't in a terribly high tax bracket, but you shouldn't forget that with a high-deductible plan, the deductible can be paid with pre-tax money, and with a PPO or similar, it's almost always paid with post-tax money.

Maybe I'm an anomaly, but my company deducts health (PPO) and dental premiums pre-tax.
 
DiamondFlyer
Posts: 3414
Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2008 11:50 pm

RE: RAH 2 Pilots: Last, Best Offer

Mon Aug 24, 2015 4:04 am

Quoting N353SK (Reply 35):
think it does. It's so vague it probably allows them to give potential trainees seniority numbers before they are actually hired, which would be a very dangerous precedent.

Ab initio in the US is a non-starter, without a regulation change. And thankfully, the union's will be 100% against it, as it would have to reverse the decision they got for the ATP rule and other associated rules that went with it.

-DiamondFlyer
From my cold, dead hands
 
DashTrash
Posts: 1321
Joined: Mon Aug 21, 2006 8:44 am

RE: RAH 2 Pilots: Last, Best Offer

Mon Aug 24, 2015 4:12 am

Quoting flyDTW1992 (Reply 15):
That's a terrible thing to say about a company with thousands of great employees that happen to be under the leadership of a rather unfortunate corporate executive team. Training, safety, maintenance, and flight operations at RAH are second to none in the regional industry, and there are great people who run the airline day-to-day. Yes, the pilot contract and labor issues are highly unfortunate and senior are certainly not doing what needs to be done, that doesn't mean you can bad mouth the thousands of professionals that work hard at that company every day.

Mir covered it, but:

Chautauqua pilots sold their souls for growth / jets at the expense of other pilot groups who attempted to hold the bar post 9/11. They, along with Mesa, who was forced to sell out to preserve scope set the regional industry back decades. I'm sure most of that group with the exception of the lifers has moved on leaving behind the rotten, outdated piece of junk CBA the current pilots are working under, but the fact remains that RAH (wasn't RAH yet when it happened) was a bottom feeder before it was cool.

Training? Isn't all that outsourced to Flight Safety?

Safety? Since 2002, CHQ: 66 reported incidents, RPA: 29, Shuttle America: 38. 133 total reported incidents. Let's see how this compares to other regionals in the same timeframe.
PSA: 31
Piedmont: 22
Eagle: 96
ASA: 93
Mesa / Freedom: 64
Skywest: 119 (ouch)

Major / Legacy Counterparts
American: 130
Continental: 78
Delta: 166
Northwest: 104
Southwest: 118
United: 105
USAirways: 55

Source for the above is FAA ASIAS

Scheduling would be part of flight operations, and I've flown in the back of the Junglebusses enough to see the worn out FAs the company is abusing. Especially the girls on reserve. Let's not forget the massive cancellations because the company can't attract anyone to fly the airplane.

Just because the employees bust ass trying to make a difference in the operation doesn't mean it isn't a bottom feeder. The term has as much to do with the goons who run it as it does the folks working for it. In this case more so as they're trying to do something to change it.

Bottom line, it's a crap company operating crap airlines, flying crap airplanes (yes, I think the 170s are crap), with crappy management. If you work there, I'm sorry you're stuck, but it's never been a secret some regionals are crappier than others, and none of the RAH airlines have ever smelled good. Ever. I've got several friends there and I think all of them regret leaving other regionals to go there.
 
B737900ER
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RE: RAH 2 Pilots: Last, Best Offer

Mon Aug 24, 2015 4:14 am

Quoting northwestEWR (Reply 34):
But there are other pilot groups out there who are getting a much better overall package and that's what the Republic pilots are seeing. They simply want an industry-competitive deal and frankly they deserve it.

It's a free market. If one company has a better package then they are free to move to that company. Nobody is bound to their employer. Whether or not they deserve an industry leading contract, that's up to republic to decide. Obviously they don't see the same value in the pilot group that it sees in itself.
 
ScottB
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RE: RAH 2 Pilots: Last, Best Offer

Mon Aug 24, 2015 4:29 am

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 32):
I suspect that there is a large population of fungible white-collar workers (i.e. educated folks who aren't executives) whose real pay hasn't gone up much in the past decade.

That is no doubt true, but in the industry at present, there exists a shortage of available workers (i.e. pilots with an ATP). And the prevailing attitude in corporate America seems to be that employees are owed no more loyalty than the contents of their paycheck. Without making any sort of value judgment regarding whether one feels that's right or wrong, it would still behoove employees to exert leverage to increase their compensation -- especially considering that executive management has chosen to reward itself handsomely over the past several years.

That's not to say that the pilots should bankrupt the company, but management seems inclined to do so if they don't get their way. But it would then be management's choice to put the company through a Chapter 11 reorganization.
 
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northwestEWR
Posts: 1974
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RE: RAH 2 Pilots: Last, Best Offer

Mon Aug 24, 2015 4:30 am

Quoting B737900ER (Reply 38):
It's a free market. If one company has a better package then they are free to move to that company. Nobody is bound to their employer. Whether or not they deserve an industry leading contract, that's up to republic to decide. Obviously they don't see the same value in the pilot group that it sees in itself.

....And as evidenced by RAH's inability to staff it's flying, the pilots ARE leaving. If they want to keep being an airline (ie have people to fly their planes), an industry competitive (I didn't say leading) contract is necessary.
Northwest Airlines - Now You're Flying Smart
 
DashTrash
Posts: 1321
Joined: Mon Aug 21, 2006 8:44 am

RE: RAH 2 Pilots: Last, Best Offer

Mon Aug 24, 2015 5:28 am

Quoting B737900ER (Reply 38):
Whether or not they deserve an industry leading contract, that's up to republic to decide.

Like hell. If Bedford can't pay the going rate for an ATP these days he'll find himself in the unemployment line. Most of the pilot group will find themselves in an indoc class somewhere with minimal time from RAH closing to class date.
 
B737900ER
Posts: 1028
Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2006 10:26 am

RE: RAH 2 Pilots: Last, Best Offer

Mon Aug 24, 2015 9:07 am

Quoting DashTrash (Reply 41):
Like hell.

Didn't know the pilots ran the company. Good to know
 
mmo
Posts: 2059
Joined: Thu Apr 18, 2013 3:04 pm

RE: RAH 2 Pilots: Last, Best Offer

Mon Aug 24, 2015 10:10 am

Quoting B737900ER (Reply 42):
Didn't know the pilots ran the company. Good to know

Do you really believe that? If you do then you are somewhat out of touch with reality.

What management fails to realize is people will vote with their feet. While there is nothing wrong with that, in today's airline world, you are doing nothing but increasing your costs. By not taking care of ALL the pilots, he is asking for trouble. If the Captains leave it's not just a matter of replacing them. You have to train new Captains and then backfill the lower positions. You are now training two people to replace one. While your salary expenses remain the same your training (overhead) expenses go skyrocketing. It is very short sighted approach for management.

So, tell me how the pilots are running the company.
If we weren't all crazy we'd all go insane!
 
2175301
Posts: 1909
Joined: Wed May 16, 2007 11:19 am

RE: RAH 2 Pilots: Last, Best Offer

Mon Aug 24, 2015 10:49 am

Quoting ScottB (Reply 5):
Well, now I can see one of the key reasons why the pilots have been rejecting the contract. The captain rates, for example, go up anywhere from about $7.50 to $11 an hour -- but let's call it about $9 on average. However, the health care costs for pilots on the company's current PPO plan will go through the roof -- $7,750 for a pilot with a family. If you assume a captain flies about 900 hours in a year, the net increase of $8,100 in pay is almost entirely eaten up by the increase in health insurance cost.

It's even worse if that pilot ends up having a big claim -- like, for example, the birth of a child (which would be common for pilots at that stage in their careers) -- they could end up with a net decrease in income of a few thousand dollars.
Quoting sxf24 (Reply 16):
You've chosen to only discuss ONE health plan option. RAH is offering 3, including a high deductible plan with a Health Savings Account (HSA) from the company. This is a pretty option in today's environment and is effectively a no-cost plan for those that only use preventative care.

It is unreasonable in the US to expect health care with no out of pocket costs and pay increases that outpace inflation.
Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 32):
I'm not sure there's a way to quantify this, but I suspect that there is a large population of fungible white-collar workers (i.e. educated folks who aren't executives) whose real pay hasn't gone up much in the past decade. And, at least pilots get an annual raise under both the old contract and the various proposals.

Exactly right Cubsrule. Furthermore, their net pay has gone down because their health insurance cost has gone up substantially faster than their wage increases (if any). I remember well the very substaintial increases in health insurance cost, and recently being forced into huge deductibles due to Obama care. My net disposable income went down for 3-4 years in a row. I know many people in other companies who have had the same experience.

Why do employees of airlines feel that they have to get a better deal than what most of the rest of workers in America got?


Have a great day,
 
floridaflyboy
Posts: 1604
Joined: Sat Jun 03, 2006 3:26 pm

RE: RAH 2 Pilots: Last, Best Offer

Mon Aug 24, 2015 11:55 am

Quoting ScottB (Reply 5):
Well, now I can see one of the key reasons why the pilots have been rejecting the contract. The captain rates, for example, go up anywhere from about $7.50 to $11 an hour -- but let's call it about $9 on average. However, the health care costs for pilots on the company's current PPO plan will go through the roof -- $7,750 for a pilot with a family. If you assume a captain flies about 900 hours in a year, the net increase of $8,100 in pay is almost entirely eaten up by the increase in health insurance cost.

It's even worse if that pilot ends up having a big claim -- like, for example, the birth of a child (which would be common for pilots at that stage in their careers) -- they could end up with a net decrease in income of a few thousand dollars.

Wow, what a horribly ignorant and misinformed statement. RAH offers 4 health plans and is planning on putting a 5th in place just for the pilots. You're conveniently leaving out the remainder and only focusing on the ARCHAIC Legacy PPO which is completely obsolete and is offered at literally no other airline. If you read the numbers on the company's web-site, you will see that there is essentially no way that a pilot can come out ahead financially if they enroll in that plan anyway. The higher premiums are market driven, not company-driven. The remaining PPO option and the consumer-driven options are FAR superior to that plan that would be going away. Know your facts.
Good goes around!
 
VictorKilo
Posts: 260
Joined: Wed Jul 05, 2006 7:39 am

RE: RAH 2 Pilots: Last, Best Offer

Mon Aug 24, 2015 12:34 pm

Quoting 2175301 (Reply 44):
Why do employees of airlines feel that they have to get a better deal than what most of the rest of workers in America got?

Supply and Demand.

In the aftermath of the Colgan Air crash, new regulations have both reduced the supply of pilots (increased minimums) and increased the demand of pilots (new pilot work rules).

These rules are not immune to the rest of the global workforce - demand for computer programmers has increased their salaries, while the supply of lawyers is decreasing as demand falls, affecting salaries.

Airlines that have built business plans that work in the previous supply/demand for pilots that do not work for today's supply/demand for pilots are at risk.

RAH can try to argue with their pilots all they want, but if they've bitten off more than they can chew - agreeing to additional flying that is profitable at one pay rate, but for which they can't get pilots to work at that pay rate - they are headed for bankruptcy, and it's not the pilot's fault, it's the fault of RAH management..
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 14629
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

RE: RAH 2 Pilots: Last, Best Offer

Mon Aug 24, 2015 1:29 pm

Quoting northwestEWR (Reply 34):
But there are other pilot groups out there who are getting a much better overall package and that's what the Republic pilots are seeing.

Have other regionals just eaten the vastly increased health insurance premiums? Surely, RAH isn't the only regional asking its pilots for help with those increases.

Quoting N353SK (Reply 35):
Maybe I'm an anomaly, but my company deducts health (PPO) and dental premiums pre-tax.

I was talking about deductibles, not premiums.

Quoting DashTrash (Reply 37):
Safety? Since 2002, CHQ: 66 reported incidents, RPA: 29, Shuttle America: 38. 133 total reported incidents. Let's see how this compares to other regionals in the same timeframe.
PSA: 31
Piedmont: 22
Eagle: 96
ASA: 93
Mesa / Freedom: 64
Skywest: 119 (ouch)

These numbers are useless without adjusting for size of the airline. Here's number of incidents (why did you exclude accidents, btw?) per aircraft in the fleet today:

RAH: 0.54
PSA: 0.27
Piedmont: 0.52
Eagle:0.55
ASA (presuming you excluded legacy XE): 0.62
YV: 0.59
OO: 0.30 (hardly an ouch)

This measure is admittedly crude, but RAH is not an outlier here.

Quoting ScottB (Reply 39):
That is no doubt true, but in the industry at present, there exists a shortage of available workers (i.e. pilots with an ATP).

To me, the question of supply and demand is completely distinct from the question of whether the current proposal is "right" or "fair," which is where I thought you were coming from when discussing the insurance issue.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
N353SK
Posts: 1022
Joined: Thu Jun 08, 2006 5:08 am

RE: RAH 2 Pilots: Last, Best Offer

Mon Aug 24, 2015 2:34 pm

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 36):

Ab initio in the US is a non-starter, without a regulation change. And thankfully, the union's will be 100% against it, as it would have to reverse the decision they got for the ATP rule and other associated rules that went with it.

-DiamondFlyer

I think what Republic really wants to do is to partner with All ATPs flight school. I could see them wanting to give CFIs a seniority number, travel privileges, and possibly some sort of bonded stipend.
 
ScottB
Posts: 7116
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2000 1:25 am

RE: RAH 2 Pilots: Last, Best Offer

Mon Aug 24, 2015 4:53 pm

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 47):
To me, the question of supply and demand is completely distinct from the question of whether the current proposal is "right" or "fair," which is where I thought you were coming from when discussing the insurance issue.

Oh, I'm making no judgment as to whether the new contract is "fair." My point is that the pilots are essentially being asked to exchange a generous health care benefit for a higher hourly pay rate with a minimal increase in total annual compensation. Given that circumstance, I can absolutely understand why the pilots would reject the contract as being inadequate, particularly in an environment where a lack of pilots with ATP's would give them negotiating leverage for better compensation.

Quoting floridaflyboy (Reply 45):
Wow, what a horribly ignorant and misinformed statement. RAH offers 4 health plans and is planning on putting a 5th in place just for the pilots. You're conveniently leaving out the remainder and only focusing on the ARCHAIC Legacy PPO which is completely obsolete and is offered at literally no other airline. If you read the numbers on the company's web-site, you will see that there is essentially no way that a pilot can come out ahead financially if they enroll in that plan anyway. The higher premiums are market driven, not company-driven.

No, it's not ignorant or misinformed. It matters not whether the legacy PPO plan is offered at other airlines. A health insurance benefit, along with wages, retirement contributions, per diems, profit sharing, time off, etc. is part of the total compensation offered to the employees of a company. The company is replacing a generous health insurance plan with a stingy one, and the trade-off is a higher pay rate. Some fraction of the pilots may actually end up with less pay after health insurance costs.

It's not all that different from a situation where you might earn $50,000 a year and receive four weeks of paid vacation. The employer proposes to raise your pay to $52,000/year but take away two weeks of vacation. Annual pay goes up but your rate of pay per hour worked actually decreases slightly. Maybe that's not such a great deal after all.

You can bet that the company's finance guys worked the numbers on the contract such that total pilot compensation (including benefits) stays flat or goes down versus expected escalation in health insurance costs. It's their job to do that.

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