Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
F9Animal
Posts: 4450
Joined: Thu Dec 16, 2004 7:13 am

RE: RAH 2 Pilots: Last, Best Offer

Tue Aug 25, 2015 4:10 am

Quoting flyDTW1992 (Reply 15):
That's a terrible thing to say about a company with thousands of great employees that happen to be under the leadership of a rather unfortunate corporate executive team. Training, safety, maintenance, and flight operations at RAH are second to none in the regional industry, and there are great people who run the airline day-to-day. Yes, the pilot contract and labor issues are highly unfortunate and senior are certainly not doing what needs to be done, that doesn't mean you can bad mouth the thousands of professionals that work hard at that company every day.

Nobody is saying anything bad about the workforce that makes RAH get off the ground everyday. I know lots of RAH workers, and yes, they are excellent. The men and women of this airline are great, but the leadership of this airline is a different story.

Look, RAH and most of the regional airlines have to do something about the future. The pilot shortage will only get worse, if the regional airlines don't invest $ into this problem. In order to attract candidates, regional airlines need to consider the pay. Not just for pilots, but for all positions. People that work will always keep their eyes open for better paying jobs. The regional airlines offer the benefit to build time and are a step in the direction to fly for the big boys. But, at the same time, they need to consider offering pay that can retain a percentage of its workers. If it means cutting executive salaries to invest in the workers pay, then so be it. However, how many of the top brass would be willing to give up some pay?

The regioal airline business has rapidly changed, and not for the better. Eventually, I think we will see airlines doing this themselves, and doing away with contracting out to airlines like RAH and Skywest. Especially if attracting talent becomes a bigger issue, which appears to be happening.

I worked for Skywest back in 1995. It was a great outfit, and I loved it there. If they paid more, I would still be there. I have also worked for RAH in 2010. There is no comparing the 2. Skywest was much better to work for, and that was a difference of 15 years. RAH seemed to be disorganized, and wishy washy in terms of employment security. I wish the pilots at RAH the best. I also hope all regional airline workers see more money on their paychecks eventually.
I Am A Different Animal!!
 
tcfc424
Posts: 582
Joined: Mon Nov 17, 2003 11:56 am

RE: RAH 2 Pilots: Last, Best Offer

Tue Aug 25, 2015 9:46 am

I think some people are missing the point. While this is a union negotiation, this really isn't a union or a work group demanding a better deal than other workers in America. This also isn't about healthcare costs, its about total compensation. Believe it or not, there actually is a real supply and demand issue with airline pilots at this point in the US. If that were not the case, RAH would have no problem filling their schedule with qualified pilots. At the same time, almost every airline (including the majors) are currently hiring pilots. If there was more supply, that would not be the case. Admittedly, some of that demand may actually be not for a lack of qualified pilots, but a lack of qualified pilots willing to work for the current compensation packages. If they can make more in a position other than as a pilot, they very well may choose that over being a pilot.

What RAH seems to be offering the pilots is a wash for their total compensation package (essentially). At the same time, comparable pilot groups have seen substantial increases in their compensation packages. To put it in understandable terms, I'll use easy (not accurate) numbers to illustrate. In all scenarios, I'm comparing apples to apples. The captains we will assume have 10 years and the FO's we will assume have 5 years. Pay is stated as total compensation (Pay, vacation, sick time, tuition assistance, healthcare, travel benefits, etc.), not just pay.

In 2005 Regional Airline A pays a captain $75,000 and a FO $50,000.
In 2005 Regional Airline B pays a captain $70,000 and a FO $45,000.
In 2015 Regional Airline A pays a captain $90,000 and a FO $60,000.
In 2015 Regional Airline B pays a captain $80,000 and a FO $50,000.

Who would you rather work for? In 2003, when the contract was agreed to, the environment was much different. There were more pilots than openings, and more than enough willing to work for lower wages. Things have changed, and as such, it necessitates a change in compensation. That doesnt mean the pilots run the airline...no one has said that. But it is a very simple exercise...an airline ceases to be an airline when it ceases to have pilots. If there is no one willing to work for the wages being offered, that is exactly what will happen...and it is already happening, as evidenced by their inability to maintain their current schedule requirements.
 
b747400erf
Posts: 3172
Joined: Wed Jun 19, 2013 4:33 am

RE: RAH 2 Pilots: Last, Best Offer

Tue Aug 25, 2015 5:28 pm

Quoting B737900ER (Reply 38):
It's a free market.

No it is not, because a shortage of pilots is not raising pay. A free market cannot exist if companies rely on exploitation and fear. see the "go move to another airline then" as a great example of this type of fear and threats attitude.
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 14629
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

RE: RAH 2 Pilots: Last, Best Offer

Tue Aug 25, 2015 6:53 pm

Quoting B747400ERF (Reply 52):
A free market cannot exist if companies rely on exploitation and fear. see the "go move to another airline then" as a great example of this type of fear and threats attitude.

Not at all. Rather, it's a recognition (albeit not very nicely worded) of the fact that seniority has monetary value.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
b747400erf
Posts: 3172
Joined: Wed Jun 19, 2013 4:33 am

RE: RAH 2 Pilots: Last, Best Offer

Tue Aug 25, 2015 8:47 pm

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 53):

Not at all. Rather, it's a recognition (albeit not very nicely worded) of the fact that seniority has monetary value.

Then any contract is going to raise pay for everyone to keep and attract talent, instead it's always threats and a race to the bottom. That is not a "free market" in action.
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 14629
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

RE: RAH 2 Pilots: Last, Best Offer

Tue Aug 25, 2015 8:51 pm

Quoting B747400ERF (Reply 54):
That is not a "free market" in action.

I agree. But the seniority system (which pilots negotiated and apparently like) is one of the significant reasons that the labor market is less than free.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
User avatar
Web500sjc
Posts: 862
Joined: Tue Sep 15, 2009 4:23 am

RE: RAH 2 Pilots: Last, Best Offer

Wed Aug 26, 2015 6:30 pm

the union at Rah is not going to send the contract to the pilots for a vote- letter from the union to pilots

Quote:
After reviewing the proposal the Executive Board of Local 357 does not believe that this meets the determination of a “final offer of settlement” referenced in the IBT Constitution. There are many reasons in support of our decision including the following:



- The proposal by the Company is the fourth in a series of LBFO’s that do not meet the requirements of the Pilots



- The Company refused to move off of their economic position until the purported “final offer of settlement” and the Company has not provided substantive data in support of their new economic proposal



- The Company modified language in the group of 19 Articles that was previously agreed to with the Local Negotiations Committee including non-monetary items



- The Company added language that prevents constitutionally protected communications between the Local, the International, its Pilots, and the community at large in Article 30.J and Article 30.M



- The proposal by the Company contained language that would require material changes to match the purported intent by the Company



Therefore, the Local Executive Board has determined that this proposal by the Company should not be sent to the Pilots for a vote. Attached is our notification of said determination to the Airline Division Director, Captain David Bourne. With this in mind, the only way in which this offer can be presented to the pilot group for a vote is if the IBT General President overrides the decision of the local.
Boiler Up!
 
BerenErchamion
Posts: 238
Joined: Thu May 28, 2015 12:44 am

RE: RAH 2 Pilots: Last, Best Offer

Wed Aug 26, 2015 6:39 pm

Quoting 2175301 (Reply 44):
Why do employees of airlines feel that they have to get a better deal than what most of the rest of workers in America got?

Why does "we have to suffer" mean "you have to suffer too" rather than "we're going to demand more for ourselves from our bosses"?

Non-organized labor is the working person's worst enemy.
 
justplanenutz
Posts: 588
Joined: Fri Feb 10, 2006 9:48 am

RE: RAH 2 Pilots: Last, Best Offer

Wed Aug 26, 2015 10:59 pm

AA announced they are keeping some Envoy E140s around a little longer. Gotta think this may be related to Republic flying, or lack thereof:

http://aviationblog.dallasnews.com/2...egional-jets-a-little-longer.html/
 
B757capt
Posts: 1403
Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2004 7:11 am

RE: RAH 2 Pilots: Last, Best Offer

Wed Aug 26, 2015 11:08 pm

Quoting justplanenutz (Reply 58):

Nope, the republic flying is still loaded.

These aircraft were pulled from the next few schedules and planned for retirement. With fuel as cheap as it is, why not keep them around to the next heavy check.
The views written by this user are in no manner the views of my employer and should not be thought as such.
 
N353SK
Posts: 1022
Joined: Thu Jun 08, 2006 5:08 am

RE: RAH 2 Pilots: Last, Best Offer

Thu Aug 27, 2015 3:16 am

Quoting justplanenutz (Reply 58):
AA announced they are keeping some Envoy E140s around a little longer. Gotta think this may be related to Republic flying, or lack thereof:

It could also be due to Trans State or Expressjet having difficulty taking aircraft from Envoy.
 
flight152
Posts: 3463
Joined: Fri Nov 24, 2000 8:04 am

RE: RAH 2 Pilots: Last, Best Offer

Thu Aug 27, 2015 3:18 am

Quoting N353SK (Reply 60):

ExpressJet has had all 16 aircraft (15+1 spare) for about 2 months.
 
justplanenutz
Posts: 588
Joined: Fri Feb 10, 2006 9:48 am

RE: RAH 2 Pilots: Last, Best Offer

Thu Aug 27, 2015 11:02 am

Quoting B757capt (Reply 59):
Nope, the republic flying is still loaded.

But are they still able to complete those flights?

Quoting flight152 (Reply 61):
ExpressJet has had all 16 aircraft (15+1 spare) for about 2 months.

I guess the one thing you can say for sure is that Envoy is retaining/hiring pilots better than expected.
 
bahadir
Posts: 1348
Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2001 4:57 pm

RE: RAH 2 Pilots: Last, Best Offer

Thu Aug 27, 2015 11:55 am

Quoting justplanenutz (Reply 62):
I guess the one thing you can say for sure is that Envoy is retaining/hiring pilots better than expected.

May be it's because of the fact that they are offering 200% overrirde for open time pick up?  
Earthbound misfit I
 
justplanenutz
Posts: 588
Joined: Fri Feb 10, 2006 9:48 am

RE: RAH 2 Pilots: Last, Best Offer

Thu Aug 27, 2015 1:03 pm

Quoting bahadir (Reply 63):

OK, that too!
 
B757capt
Posts: 1403
Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2004 7:11 am

RE: RAH 2 Pilots: Last, Best Offer

Thu Aug 27, 2015 2:30 pm

Quoting justplanenutz (Reply 62):

They may not be, I don't know. What I do know is the 140s Envoy is keeping for a little while longer has nothing to do with this.
The views written by this user are in no manner the views of my employer and should not be thought as such.
 
User avatar
LAXintl
Posts: 24816
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 12:12 pm

RE: RAH 2 Pilots: Last, Best Offer

Wed Sep 02, 2015 1:14 am

IBT local at RAH and Teamsters national say they wont sent out the company proposal for a vote by pilots.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articl...cision-barring-republic-pilot-vote

=

Let see what the next chess move from the company is..


  
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
B757capt
Posts: 1403
Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2004 7:11 am

RE: RAH 2 Pilots: Last, Best Offer

Wed Sep 02, 2015 12:28 pm

Sounds like they are headed to BK court.
The views written by this user are in no manner the views of my employer and should not be thought as such.
 
bostonmike
Posts: 59
Joined: Tue Nov 15, 2011 4:08 pm

RE: RAH 2 Pilots: Last, Best Offer

Wed Sep 02, 2015 1:36 pm

Quoting B757capt (Reply 67):

Sounds like they are headed to BK court.



Tell me how RJET will benefit in bankruptcy court. Can they pick and chose which capacity purchase agreements to ask the court to void? Dropping the remaining Delta 145s and United Qs will free up pilots for the short term, although transition training could take forever. How will the court view the LBFO?
 
User avatar
Jamake1
Posts: 1008
Joined: Mon May 17, 2004 2:30 pm

RE: RAH 2 Pilots: Last, Best Offer

Wed Sep 02, 2015 8:29 pm

Cowen & Co.'s Helane Becker downgraded RJET stock today to underperform and cut it's target from $5 P/S to $1 P/S. She also thinks it is likely that RJET will have to renegotiate its contracts with its network affiliates through bankruptcy court.

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/rep...ructuring-2015-09-02?siteid=yhoof2
Come fly the sun.
 
B757capt
Posts: 1403
Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2004 7:11 am

RE: RAH 2 Pilots: Last, Best Offer

Wed Sep 02, 2015 10:10 pm

Quoting BostonMike (Reply 68):

Exactly. Any of those are good questions.
The views written by this user are in no manner the views of my employer and should not be thought as such.
 
User avatar
LAXintl
Posts: 24816
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 12:12 pm

RE: RAH 2 Pilots: Last, Best Offer

Thu Sep 03, 2015 12:29 am

Quoting BostonMike (Reply 68):
Can they pick and chose which capacity purchase agreements to ask the court to void?

Absolutely. Every CPA I've seen allows for an exit clause in case of BK. It matter of fact gives both sides, the provider and the purchaser the option to exit the agreement in case of BK.

Quoting BostonMike (Reply 68):
How will the court view the LBFO?

RAH could certainly try a 1113c motion, or alteast a threat of such where a judge would impose collective bargaining agreement.
Remember in BK, one of the prime goals is to help rehabilitate and provide a viable exit path for the petitioner so it often looks more favorably upon managements request and plans.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
bostonmike
Posts: 59
Joined: Tue Nov 15, 2011 4:08 pm

RE: RAH 2 Pilots: Last, Best Offer

Thu Sep 03, 2015 1:26 am

 
User avatar
LAXintl
Posts: 24816
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 12:12 pm

RE: RAH 2 Pilots: Last, Best Offer

Thu Sep 03, 2015 2:12 am

The stock is a bargain...
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
User avatar
northwestEWR
Posts: 1974
Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2004 12:45 pm

RE: RAH 2 Pilots: Last, Best Offer

Thu Sep 03, 2015 2:27 am

The other thread got deleted so I'll ask here:

What are the contingency plans for the majors? Republic and Shuttle America fly 264 airplanes for AA, DL and UA. That's a significant chunk of their regional network and any shutdown/strike/etc by Republic could have some fairly devastating consequences for their mainline counterparts.

There's certainly no short-term solution to replace Republic's flying should something happen to them. The other regionals are barely staffed as is and mainline wouldn't be able to take over their flying in a reasonable timeframe.

Thoughts?
Northwest Airlines - Now You're Flying Smart
 
flyDTW1992
Posts: 1053
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2015 1:04 am

RE: RAH 2 Pilots: Last, Best Offer

Thu Sep 03, 2015 2:55 am

Quoting northwestEWR (Reply 74):
Thoughts?

The reasons you mention are exactly why I see it going one of two ways...

1) Bankruptcy forces the majors' hand in the way of new CPAs with better rates for RAH, who then regroups and soldiers on.

2) Bankruptcy or the path to it result in swift action from the industry to acquire RAH's certificates and airplanes and reallocate them.

Of course, option 1 could result in certain elements of option 2 as well, such as United E175 flying being reallocated to SkyWest (off the cuff example).
Now you're flying smart
 
User avatar
northwestEWR
Posts: 1974
Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2004 12:45 pm

RE: RAH 2 Pilots: Last, Best Offer

Thu Sep 03, 2015 3:37 am

Quoting flyDTW1992 (Reply 75):
2) Bankruptcy or the path to it result in swift action from the industry to acquire RAH's certificates and airplanes and reallocate them.

This still strikes me as a lengthy (6-12 months at least?) process. You'd have to negotiate a contract with RAH to takeover their airplanes, contracts, maintenance, pilots, F/As, etc and transfer them to another carrier. That carrier would then have to do all the required paperwork involved with bringing in new airplanes and thousands of people. Then there's all the training requirements.

It can certainly be done but not quickly. That's what I'm sure the majors are worried about.

Who are the contenders to pick up the pieces?

Skywest? Are they crazy enough to try another merger/acquisition this soon after ExpressJet/ASA? That's still not entirely completed and has multiple operational challenges to overcome.

Endeavor? As a Delta subsidiary, I imagine the parent (Delta) could spin off another subsidiary to take over the Republic flying for Delta but what do they have to gain? Not sure Delta would want to invest in that strategy.

Envoy? As an American subsidiary.... see above.

Trans States? That seems like a possibility, I'm less familiar with TSA than any of the other groups.
Northwest Airlines - Now You're Flying Smart
 
DiamondFlyer
Posts: 3414
Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2008 11:50 pm

RE: RAH 2 Pilots: Last, Best Offer

Thu Sep 03, 2015 3:41 am

Quoting northwestEWR (Reply 76):
Endeavor? As a Delta subsidiary, I imagine the parent (Delta) could spin off another subsidiary to take over the Republic flying for Delta but what do they have to gain? Not sure Delta would want to invest in that strategy.

Seeing as 9E is having the least issues staffing airplanes, I could see them getting some of the 50 seat flying in the mean time, just for additional lift.

-DiamondFlyer
From my cold, dead hands
 
flyDTW1992
Posts: 1053
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2015 1:04 am

RE: RAH 2 Pilots: Last, Best Offer

Thu Sep 03, 2015 3:50 am

Quoting northwestEWR (Reply 76):
Trans States? That seems like a possibility, I'm less familiar with TSA than any of the other groups.

I think Trans States would be very possible. The Compass certificate in particular. Since Compass is flying E175s for DL and AA now, they'd be the best situated certification and infrastructure wise. Taking the S5 DL birds would be relatively easy: They're identical to theirs and there aren't that many of them. Taking the AA E175s wouldn't be a massive challenge either. The UA flying would probably be a sticking point though, so perhaps SkyWest or Mesa would absorb the UA operations in such a situation.
Now you're flying smart
 
DiamondFlyer
Posts: 3414
Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2008 11:50 pm

RE: RAH 2 Pilots: Last, Best Offer

Thu Sep 03, 2015 4:28 am

Quoting flyDTW1992 (Reply 78):
I think Trans States would be very possible. The Compass certificate in particular. Since Compass is flying E175s for DL and AA now, they'd be the best situated certification and infrastructure wise. Taking the S5 DL birds would be relatively easy: They're identical to theirs and there aren't that many of them. Taking the AA E175s wouldn't be a massive challenge either. The UA flying would probably be a sticking point though, so perhaps SkyWest or Mesa would absorb the UA operations in such a situation.

That assumes RAH tries to dump 70 seat flying. I think its safe to assume, based on their recent surprise on the S5 E145 renewal for Delta, that they would try to dump that flying first. If it came down to needing to replace that 50 seat flying, 9E is probably in the best shape (both staffing and region wise) to quickly stand up more flying.

-DiamondFlyer
From my cold, dead hands
 
flyDTW1992
Posts: 1053
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2015 1:04 am

RE: RAH 2 Pilots: Last, Best Offer

Thu Sep 03, 2015 4:37 am

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 79):
That assumes RAH tries to dump 70 seat flying. I think its safe to assume, based on their recent surprise on the S5 E145 renewal for Delta, that they would try to dump that flying first. If it came down to needing to replace that 50 seat flying, 9E is probably in the best shape (both staffing and region wise) to quickly stand up more flying.

You're right on that, if it were a restructuring as opposed to a "parting out" and liquidation of the company. They'd wanted the 50 seaters gone for quite a while. When I interned there just over a year ago they were all happy about the 145s (and the Q400s for that matter) going away, single fleet type was the name of the game.

But yes, if they were able to work something out to dump the 145s, I could see 9E being in a position to take over. Trans States could still be a possibility there too, though.
Now you're flying smart
 
mmo
Posts: 2059
Joined: Thu Apr 18, 2013 3:04 pm

RE: RAH 2 Pilots: Last, Best Offer

Thu Sep 03, 2015 6:52 am

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 71):

RAH could certainly try a 1113c motion, or alteast a threat of such where a judge would impose collective bargaining agreement.
Remember in BK, one of the prime goals is to help rehabilitate and provide a viable exit path for the petitioner so it often looks more favorably upon managements request and plans.

You make an 1113C filing sound like a "slam dunk". It's not. Management would have an extremely hard time trying to argue the pilot's payroll costs are out of line and need to be reduced. They are already the "bottom feeder" and reducing pilot pay is far from the answer. Please provide some evidence of your comments about the Court viewing management's request more favorably. The court has to look at things objectively and depending on where the court is located, the investors come first. There is no guarantee an 1113C filing would be successful or even entertained.
If we weren't all crazy we'd all go insane!
 
bhmdiversion
Posts: 285
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2008 2:41 pm

RE: RAH 2 Pilots: Last, Best Offer

Thu Sep 03, 2015 9:44 am

Quoting northwestEWR (Reply 76):

Who says if these contracts are dumped that these carriers (taking on the added cost of more planes) would take their staff? The mainline carriers want the lift, they honestly don't care who flies the plane, as long as their costs are driven higher.

If these are planes that are owned by the mainline partners, then its a 60 day notice and they are gone.
 
justplanenutz
Posts: 588
Joined: Fri Feb 10, 2006 9:48 am

RE: RAH 2 Pilots: Last, Best Offer

Thu Sep 03, 2015 11:04 am

Quoting mmo (Reply 81):
They are already the "bottom feeder" and reducing pilot pay is far from the answer.

RAH wouldn't be trying to cut pilot pay--they'd be trying to raise pay, albeit less than IBT wants.

Quoting bhmdiversion (Reply 82):
If these are planes that are owned by the mainline partners, then its a 60 day notice and they are gone.

1) I believe RAH owns most of its fleet. I know specifically that the 47 AA 175s are owned (AA was in BK at the time so it couldn't finance them).
2) While many contacts have a termination upon BK provision, BK courts often ignore them if they view the contract as an asset to the BK estate.
 
sldispatcher
Posts: 412
Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2007 3:55 am

RE: RAH 2 Pilots: Last, Best Offer

Thu Sep 03, 2015 12:29 pm

Quoting jetblastdubai (Reply 6):
Looks like the 'chickens' came home to roost!

http://teamster.org/content/teamsters-endorse-barack-obama

http://dailycaller.com/2013/07/11/an...ct-on-members-healthcare-coverage/

Who didn't see this coming....oh wait....

You won the internet today. I'm in healthcare and this has been telegraphed for 5 years as coming. In fact, it was put off a year for political purposes. You will hear the same story in every industry.

As far as people asking 'why'. It is because the coverage level mandates that are attached to particular policies. There is nothing "free" about healthcare no matter what country you are from. Someone somewhere some entity must pay for the delivery of said healthcare. RAH is indeed still able to offer choice.

IF I were running the company, I would be at the legacy airline's doorstep asking for retention money to be paid directly to my pilots (or via some method) or else that legacy could start losing service. I do not see any of the present carriers being able to jump in easily and backfill someone else's collapsed flying. But maybe another carrier has that sort of slack?
 
bostonmike
Posts: 59
Joined: Tue Nov 15, 2011 4:08 pm

RE: RAH 2 Pilots: Last, Best Offer

Thu Sep 03, 2015 1:33 pm

Quoting sldispatcher (Reply 84):
But maybe another carrier has that sort of slack?

Not sure any one of the regionals has additional pilots sitting around. Republic pilots are getting cold calls from other regionals to come over. First Officers, certainly those with 1500 hours, are prime targets for poaching.
 
DiamondFlyer
Posts: 3414
Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2008 11:50 pm

RE: RAH 2 Pilots: Last, Best Offer

Thu Sep 03, 2015 2:16 pm

Quoting BostonMike (Reply 85):
Not sure any one of the regionals has additional pilots sitting around. Republic pilots are getting cold calls from other regionals to come over. First Officers, certainly those with 1500 hours, are prime targets for poaching.

Literally every regional is sending out mass mailers to any and all ATP qualified pilots these days.

-DiamondFlyer
From my cold, dead hands
 
eugdjinn
Posts: 194
Joined: Thu May 01, 2008 5:58 pm

RE: RAH 2 Pilots: Last, Best Offer

Thu Sep 03, 2015 2:43 pm

Quoting northwestEWR (Reply 74):
There's certainly no short-term solution to replace Republic's flying should something happen to them. The other regionals are barely staffed as is and mainline wouldn't be able to take over their flying in a reasonable timeframe.

AND this is timed now so that it will hurt most just as we hit the Holiday travel season - almost as though it was intentionally timed so that someone (Govt?) would be forced to intervene??? Let's see, who put that Last Best Final Offer out there and declared it a line in the sand? Wait, was it the FOs who can't afford to buy a sandwich daily, or the CEO who lives in a mansion? Suspicious?

Quoting flyDTW1992 (Reply 78):
I think Trans States would be very possible. The Compass certificate in particular. Since Compass is flying E175s for SA)">DL and SA)">AA now, they'd be the best situated certification and infrastructure wise. Taking the SA)">S5 SA)">DL birds would be relatively easy: They're identical to theirs and there aren't that many of them. Taking the SA)">AA E175s wouldn't be a massive challenge either. The SA)">UA flying would probably be a sticking point though, so perhaps SkyWest or Mesa would absorb the SA)">UA operations in such a situation.

But Compass was having trouble staffing the SA)">AA birds, and at least to me, the root cause of this blowup - the decision by SA)">DL -not- to let go of the E145 contract but force it on RAH was a reminder to RAH management that SA)">DL was not willing to be the sacrificed and least important of their majors. I don't think that was lost on anyone else, either. Bedford seems to have assumed he could wiggle out from under that contract without talking to SA)">DL, or reassuring them that new flying would never compromise the Delta 170/175 flying.

And at least from where I've been listening, Compass is in absolutely no position to take on any more flying at all. I don't know how accurate that is, but there were questions about their ability to swallow all of the SA)">AA flying already contracted to them. SkyWest seems to be handling their growth, but sound maxed out. And poor, poor MESA have (per the rumor mill) got themselves financially pushed to the limit, and are barely holding their 175 flying together (and at the risk of alienating SA)">AA with whom they have contracts for a lot of 900s.)

Quoting sldispatcher (Reply 84):
I do not see any of the present carriers being able to jump in easily and backfill someone else's collapsed flying. But maybe another carrier has that sort of slack?

Well, let's see, once again, Envoy has an excess of pilots, and could take more. The question is just how poisoned is the relationship between pilots and MQ management, and or SA)">AA management.

And from the sleeper side, ExpressJet made a very calculated move this summer in not taking on a ton of additional summer flying, and left themselves not only in the position of being the one carrier that could pinch-hit for their majors by putting together a crew and an aircraft on the fly. Did it pay off? Time will tell, but they did use the summer wisely to work through any maintenance backlog, and not build one flying their tails off... and they do have reductions in contract and fleets leaving them with extra crews.... Also, if SKW would finally let them, I think they could finish the process to add the 175 to their fleet and certificate in less time than any other carrier could staff up and take them on... and they have the deep pockets (also SKW) to go buy the aircraft if they have to... or just pay RAH for them.

My bet is that if RAH goes into ch. 11 - a FAR smaller carrier comes out. I'd watch for SA)">AA to send their birds to Envoy or ExpressJet, Delta to call on ExpressJet and SkyWest, and United to possibly go to ExpressJet and SkyWest... mostly to ExpressJet.

---(Yo, ExpressJet folks - if you want that to happen, get off your tails and settle your Pilot and FA contracts. Your negotiating committees are killing your chances of survival arguing over ridiculously small stuff. Get it together. The clock is ticking and there is no market for white mice pulling pumpkins, eh?)--
 
jacobin777
Posts: 12262
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 6:29 pm

RE: RAH 2 Pilots: Last, Best Offer

Thu Sep 03, 2015 3:25 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 73):
The stock is a bargain...

I own very cheap "out of the money" put options on RAH. That being said, this might be a bit of an "AA 2003" situation where AA avoided BK literally by days if not hours.

Not so sure about RAH's situation however.
"Up the Irons!"
 
justplanenutz
Posts: 588
Joined: Fri Feb 10, 2006 9:48 am

RE: RAH 2 Pilots: Last, Best Offer

Thu Sep 03, 2015 6:31 pm

Quoting eugdjinn (Reply 87):
My bet is that if RAH goes into ch. 11 - a FAR smaller carrier comes out. I'd watch for SA)">AA to send their birds to Envoy or ExpressJet,

Once the Qs are off the YX certificate, that'll leave just 105 AA 170/175s plus 10 190s. Thoughts:
1) How hard would it be for RP to sell YX to AA lock, stock and barrel?
2) Any reason AA couldn't take on another regional subsidiary?
3) What happens if AA goes to IBT and offers the PSA/Envoy contract?

[Edited 2015-09-03 11:41:15]
 
32andBelow
Posts: 5034
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 2:54 am

RE: RAH 2 Pilots: Last, Best Offer

Thu Sep 03, 2015 7:01 pm

Quoting BostonMike (Reply 85):
First Officers, certainly those with 1500 hours, are prime targets for poaching.

they are all required to have 1500 hours now, unless they have a restricted ATP, but they can take that to their new carrier as well.
 
Mir
Posts: 19491
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: RAH 2 Pilots: Last, Best Offer

Thu Sep 03, 2015 7:07 pm

Quoting justplanenutz (Reply 83):
RAH wouldn't be trying to cut pilot pay--they'd be trying to raise pay, albeit less than IBT wants.

Cancelled out by other work rule changes.

Quoting justplanenutz (Reply 89):
3) What happens if AA goes to IBT and offers the PSA/Envoy contract?

It'll get turned down. The PSA/Envoy contract isn't a very good one anymore.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
justplanenutz
Posts: 588
Joined: Fri Feb 10, 2006 9:48 am

RE: RAH 2 Pilots: Last, Best Offer

Thu Sep 03, 2015 7:27 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 91):
Cancelled out by other work rule changes.


Didn't RAH try to raise pay without amending the contract and IBT sued them over it?

Quoting Mir (Reply 91):
It'll get turned down. The PSA/Envoy contract isn't a very good one anymore.

So, then AA moves the metal over to Envoy/PSA/Piedmont. That would be messy, but at least AA would be in control and not subject to the vagaries of RAH's BK.
 
azjubilee
Posts: 3723
Joined: Sat Apr 29, 2000 5:26 am

RE: RAH 2 Pilots: Last, Best Offer

Thu Sep 03, 2015 7:39 pm

Many are over reacting here. RAH's mainline partners will not allow any massive loss of feed for their networks. As a result, IF they sail into Ch11, their restructuring will be such that the mainline partners will be involved and contracts will be manipulated that will make RAH and their partners happy. They employees? Well, no employee group that enters bankruptcy emerges happier than before. Besides, Ch11's aren't quick and dirty episodes, so nothing will change overnight.
 
bennett123
Posts: 10073
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2004 12:49 am

RE: RAH 2 Pilots: Last, Best Offer

Thu Sep 03, 2015 7:48 pm

Well they can fix whatever contracts they like.

If their pilots keep going somewhere else, then who will fly the planes.
 
azjubilee
Posts: 3723
Joined: Sat Apr 29, 2000 5:26 am

RE: RAH 2 Pilots: Last, Best Offer

Thu Sep 03, 2015 7:53 pm

Quoting bennett123 (Reply 94):

That's the thing... it's not as easy to just go somewhere else, so it doesn't happen as fast as one thinks. My prediction is that if they head into bankruptcy, they'll be able to renegotiate their agreements with the mainline partners which will increase their profit margins and make them a more viable company. Face it, pilot costs are NOT causing the problem here. Based on market forces and simple economics, they'll be forced to throw a bone to the pilots to sweeten the pot to attract and retain new pilots. Even if Ch11 isn't involved, I find it likely RAH will approach their mainline partners for changes to their agreements.
 
bostonmike
Posts: 59
Joined: Tue Nov 15, 2011 4:08 pm

RE: RAH 2 Pilots: Last, Best Offer

Thu Sep 03, 2015 8:50 pm

I believe the following to be accurate but not verified:

The Company today reached out to IBT Local 357 President Jim Clark to propose a joint process between the Company and the Union to address errors and to clarify intent in some areas of the proposed contract prior to a vote.
We have been working through our website to answer questions about the proposed contract ranging from typos to the intent behind certain language. Even so, there’s a value in having such a process incorporated into the language of the proposed contract and with the participation of the Union. We’ve offered to meet on a similar basis with the Union’s Executive Board at various points throughout the process so there’s a basis to do so again. If Mr. Clark and the Executive Board believe that a sincere and expeditious opportunity exists to participate in such a process, we’re immediately available for that purpose.
On another point, IBT Local 357’s announcement regarding a new proposal prompted the Company to confirm with the National Mediation Board that it had not received such a document. The Company and the Union both remain under the direction of the NMB and – as such – all such materials should be submitted to the NMB's attention through the mediator. The Company confirmed with the NMB our willingness to continue to respect this process.
Corporate Communications
Republic Airways Holdings
 
Mir
Posts: 19491
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: RAH 2 Pilots: Last, Best Offer

Thu Sep 03, 2015 9:08 pm

Quoting justplanenutz (Reply 92):
Didn't RAH try to raise pay without amending the contract and IBT sued them over it?

They tried to raise first-year pay, yes. But the contract is negotiated through the union, and the company can't just bypass it whenever it sees fit. It would set a very dangerous precedent if the pilots didn't try and stop that.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
User avatar
jfklganyc
Posts: 6082
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 2:31 pm

RE: RAH 2 Pilots: Last, Best Offer

Thu Sep 03, 2015 9:22 pm

Quoting justplanenutz (Reply 92):

So, then AA moves the metal over to Envoy/PSA/Piedmont. That would be messy, but at least AA would be in control and not subject to the vagaries of RAH's BK.

You mean the Envoy that they are shrinking rapidly? BOS, SJU, LAX, MIA, JFK, LGA now closed Envoy? That's the answer here?

The model is broken and can't be fixed in its current state.

Republic is the Canary in the Coal Mine. Stay tuned... there will be many more.
 
C767P
Posts: 309
Joined: Wed Oct 15, 2008 4:11 am

RE: RAH 2 Pilots: Last, Best Offer

Thu Sep 03, 2015 9:24 pm

Didn’t AA pilots want to negotiate a pay rate to fly the 175 at mainline? AA management kind of killed that idea as soon as they proposed it? If the costs are too great initially, raise the price of tickets….

The issue doesn’t go away by transferring any airplanes to other regionals.

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos