skipness1E
Posts: 4515
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 9:18 am

RE: Why Won't BA Expand In The UK? ( Out Of London)

Tue Aug 25, 2015 9:45 am

Quoting LHRFlyer (Reply 36):
It's a perfectly simple concept.

Not if you have your "local" glasses on sadly.

Quoting Cornishsimon (Reply 42):
BA have already been trying out different ways of flying regionally to Europe using a night stopping aircraft last year at EDI with a MF crew, this year they are trying it over the winter operating a W pattern using a LGW crew LGW-GLA-XXX-GLA-LGW

They sued to do this on GLA-GVA with B737s but it's just tinkering round the edges.

Quoting Cornishsimon (Reply 42):
so the likes of INV, PIK, NQY, EXT, JER, GCI etc

Not a chance for PIK IMHO, or MME. I think a good case for IOM, JER, GCI. EXT is just down the M4.
Didn't you miss one btw?   NQY surely If they get a third runway, ring fence three slots, taxpayer underwritten and sold as a hhuge boost to the economy. Which it would be. The current NQY situation is just messy and loss making, this would be a strategic once in a lifetime re-alignment.

Quoting SKAirbus (Reply 49):
The fact of the matter is that the UK market is saturated and BA has lost out on a lot of that market apart from shuttling businessmen down from Scotland to LCY or connecting passengers down from Scotland + Northern England to LHR.

The market is mature but not saturated. BA make money doing exactly that, they would not make money flying P2P out of Leeds against Jet2, even though that is being part of "the market".

Quoting SKAirbus (Reply 49):
"oop nawf"

Don't do that. Really.

Quoting SKAirbus (Reply 49):
'd only understand this anger if there weren't ample connection opportunities from regional destinations in the UK but there are.

It's an irrational thing as people still see the market in terms of "Flag Carriers", hence the term "London Airways". Many people would have paid for BA to fly through years of losses then got angry when a privatised BA left them for the likes of Ryanair. It's an emotional thang IMHO.
 
BHXLOVER
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RE: Why Won't BA Expand In The UK? ( Out Of London)

Tue Aug 25, 2015 10:20 am

Just because they are called British Airways, we must not be fooled in to thinking that BA care for British customers any more than customers from any where else in the world. They will take anyone's money.

At one time, BA could sit waiting at LHR while their customers blindly travelled hundreds of miles to get their flight. However I believe attitudes are changing.

I for one refuse to travel the 100 or so miles to LHR, and always opt to travel from my local airport. My custom therefore goes to Emirates, KLM, Lufthansa or Air France. To me, the prospect of a four hour car journey before and after a long haul flight is unthinkable.
 
time2lyme
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RE: Why Won't BA Expand In The UK? ( Out Of London)

Tue Aug 25, 2015 10:44 am

There's lot of comments about good motorway and train connections from the rest of the country to LHR, but posters seem to be ignoring, or are unaware of, a couple of facts about travelling in the UK.

1. Motorways are horendously congested!
o Try driving from Heathrow to ANYWHERE on the M25 during rush hour (which is 7am to 10am, midday to 2pm, 4pm to 7pm - oh wait, that's when most flights leave/arrive at Heathrow) and you'll easily eat up hours of time and frustration.
o Heathrow to Bimingham is fine in the M40.
o Birmingham north on the M5/M6 is a nightmare.
o Anywhere to London on the M1 also likely to be a nightmare.
o Drive from Manchester to LHR, estimate 6 hours.

2. Trains between major cities may be frequent, but are ridiculously expensive.
o I had to travel to Sheffield from West London. The day return train fair was over £260 !! With three of us to travel, I drove the 3 hours plus journey each way, with a full 6 hour business day in between. Had there been a reasonably priced flight (or train), we definitely would have taken it.

Not everyone does want to have to use LHR. There does seem to be a North/South divide and with the wealth of businesses in the North, I would have thought an airline who was serious about making it work, could have a successful base at Manchester serving the northern business community.
 
offloaded
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RE: Why Won't BA Expand In The UK? ( Out Of London)

Tue Aug 25, 2015 10:53 am

I thought Walsh was pro - 3rd runway at LHR, but at an estimated £17billion cost decided it was unjustified? Or was the price tag an opportunity for him to back out, fearful of additional competition?
To no one will we sell, or deny, or delay, right or justice - Magna Carta, 1215
 
Andy33
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RE: Why Won't BA Expand In The UK? ( Out Of London)

Tue Aug 25, 2015 10:56 am

Quoting BHXLOVER (Reply 51):
I for one refuse to travel the 100 or so miles to LHR, and always opt to travel from my local airport. My custom therefore goes to Emirates, KLM, Lufthansa or Air France. To me, the prospect of a four hour car journey before and after a long haul flight is unthinkable.

I'd love to travel from my local airport (East Midlands, 10 minutes away) long haul. Unfortunately those unhelpful people at Emirates, KLM, Lufthansa and Air France don't fly from there, and say I could easily go from BHX instead (sound familiar?), as it is just 50 minutes away by car. Even though BMI's headquarters were at EMA they never flew long haul from EMA, nor did they fly to LHR or MAN from EMA to connect with their long haul flights (so it isn't just BA, BMI, their British network airline competitor, didn't make this work either).

But it's only just over 2 hours by car to Heathrow, where I can get non-stop flights to just about anywhere I want to go instead of having to connect in mainland Europe or Dubai, so my door-to-door journey time is likely to be less. I can also go by train to Heathrow in about two and a quarter hours, or Gatwick in just over that, with one change of train, and doing that I don't need to allow time for parking and getting from the car park to the terminal, and back or worry about driving home after a tiring flight..
 
skipness1E
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RE: Why Won't BA Expand In The UK? ( Out Of London)

Tue Aug 25, 2015 11:03 am

Quoting time2lyme (Reply 52):
Not everyone does want to have to use LHR. There does seem to be a North/South divide and with the wealth of businesses in the North, I would have thought an airline who was serious about making it work, could have a successful base at Manchester serving the northern business community.

Why do you think no one stepped into this goldmine of opportunity once BA pulled out then?
Emirates, Qatar, Etihad, United, Delta, American, Virgin, Air Transat, Air Canada Rouge, Icelanair, Saudia, and most of the European legacies and locos are also serious about "making it work".
BMI tried to offer long haul out of MAN when they bought three A332s assuming they could fly them from LHR (whoops!)
How did that work out? They had feed from LHR / GLA / EDI / ABZ etc? It needs a critical mass and a low cost base. It would incredibly difficult to get to critical mass as you'd need to take substantial market share away from all the big boys listed above and sustain losses for a number of years all the time having your internal revenue analysts screaming at you for wasting valuable assets serving a marginal market.
 
factsonly
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RE: Why Won't BA Expand In The UK? ( Out Of London)

Tue Aug 25, 2015 11:25 am

Quoting andy33 (Reply 54):
Even though BMI's headquarters were at EMA they never flew long haul from EMA, nor did they fly to LHR or MAN from EMA

BMI most certainly flew EMA-LHR-EMA with F27 and Shorts 360 (I had the pleasure myself)........and the equipment tells you how long ago this was.
 
IADCA
Posts: 1868
Joined: Mon Feb 26, 2007 12:24 am

RE: Why Won't BA Expand In The UK? ( Out Of London)

Tue Aug 25, 2015 12:27 pm

Quoting andy33 (Reply 54):
But it's only just over 2 hours by car to Heathrow, where I can get non-stop flights to just about anywhere I want to go instead of having to connect in mainland Europe or Dubai, so my door-to-door journey time is likely to be less. I can also go by train to Heathrow in about two and a quarter hours, or Gatwick in just over that, with one change of train, and doing that I don't need to allow time for parking and getting from the car park to the terminal, and back or worry about driving home after a tiring flight..

This was pretty much my thinking when I lived in Nottingham. I'd also add that there is bus service direct to Heathrow, which takes longer but is sometimes convenient if one arrives or departs at a very odd time and one either wants to avoid London rush hour or avoid dragging bags through St. Pancras.
 
starrymarkb
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RE: Why Won't BA Expand In The UK? ( Out Of London)

Tue Aug 25, 2015 12:38 pm

It's 3.5 hours EXT to LHR on the coach (every 2 hours) - I'd say 40% of passengers alight at LHR (the coach continues into central London) though some may be heading for the tube/coach connections/destinations in the Heathrow area. IME the journey is pretty reliable to Heathrow (though return journeys are often delayed on the way out of London
 
slinky09
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RE: Why Won't BA Expand In The UK? ( Out Of London)

Tue Aug 25, 2015 1:39 pm

Quoting fiddlerkrt (Reply 38):
There was a really interesting "theorem" so to speak posited by a member here recently about the "visitor" advantage. It is easier for a foreign airline to serve secondary markets in the home country of the "incumbent airline." A great example is KL which serves a vast array of UK markets while BA only offers ABZ, EDI, GLA, LBA, MAN, NCL from LHR. On the flip side, BA can offer a lot of direct routes from LHR to the US while the US3 only fly from their hubs to Europe (although there are some exceptions such as AA on RDU-LHR and DL on PHL-LHR).

Indeed, you could ask why don't the US3 fly to the UK from Austin, Seattle or Pheonix for example? For reasons stated above, it's good to have a hub operation at at least one end of a route.
 
hohd
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RE: Why Won't BA Expand In The UK? ( Out Of London)

Tue Aug 25, 2015 4:39 pm

I understand about BHX not having air service to London area, but not from LPL? LPL area is quite far from London, and I am surprised no airline -Ryanair, Easyjet are offering services between LPL and London area. From the healthy traffic from MAN, it is clear that BA could fly from MAN to some cities in US, and be profitable, especially to some AA hubs.
 
IADCA
Posts: 1868
Joined: Mon Feb 26, 2007 12:24 am

RE: Why Won't BA Expand In The UK? ( Out Of London)

Tue Aug 25, 2015 5:17 pm

Quoting hohd (Reply 60):
LPL area is quite far from London, and I am surprised no airline -Ryanair, Easyjet are offering services between LPL and London area.

It's 2:15 on the direct trains from Liverpool Lime Street to Euston. That timing isn't really beatable by air once security, taxiing, and ground transport are factored in.
 
Andy33
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RE: Why Won't BA Expand In The UK? ( Out Of London)

Tue Aug 25, 2015 5:29 pm

Quoting hohd (Reply 60):
LPL area is quite far from London, and I am surprised no airline -Ryanair, Easyjet are offering services between LPL and London area

There have been LPL - LON flights in the past. That there are none now tells you they weren't profitable.
Liverpool Airport is just 31 miles by road from Manchester Airport, and even Manchester with its much bigger catchment area struggles to keep London flights (Virgin gave up this year).

There is a regular 125mph rail service between the centre of Liverpool and the centre of London taking a little over 2 hours. Manchester has 3 trains each hour taking the same time. This isn't High Speed Rail by UK standards, they're using the routes developed in the 1830s and 1840s. Wait until HS2 starts (if it ever does) and see how much domestic air service is left.
You'd need to walk into the terminal at LPL or MAN at least an hour before departure to be sure of catching the flight, the flight would take about an hour (allowing for congestion in the London ATC area), then you've still got to get out of the airport and to your final destination. So minimal O&D traffic by air unless you live close nearby or want to go to somewhere next to one of the airports. Connections keep MAN-LON alive.
 
mutu
Posts: 488
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RE: Why Won't BA Expand In The UK? ( Out Of London)

Tue Aug 25, 2015 5:52 pm

As others have said:
1. BA used to have an extensive regional network - and record losses and record poor punctuality. They tingered with it numerous times, then took radical action (BACON) but still the situation didn't improve
2. It has done it once , lost its shirt, and contracted back to a hub model adopted across the globe by network carriers.
3. Of course there are passengers in the regions flying east and west via a variety of hubs - no one has to fly via LHR and indeed LHR doesnt really have the capacity for overmuch connecting traffic
4. I am sure BA acknowledge growth in longhaul flying east from the regions is going largely via the ME3, but their (BA) planes are not exactly flying empty, and the loss of high yielding traffic is less pronounced
5. trying to run an extensive UK wide flying programme at a profit is challenging with their cost base - in fact challenging period given the relatively small landmass and population concentrations.
6. I think we have 1.5x the population of California crammed in to a landmass just over half the size of California. There is only so much mainline flying that can be done
7. Given how aggressive BA management are in the pursuit of maximum profit, if there genuinely was a way to do it and make a greater return on capital than currently,
they would be doing it.
8. Shorthaul connectivity from the UK regions to europe and beyond over AMS FRA CDG BRU and DUB and others is plentiful
But similarly westwards flying BA connects many French Spanish German etc cities to the USA that their respective national carriers cant economically do.
9. BA does actually have a pretty decent regional programme to/from LHR in any event
 
threeifbyair
Posts: 939
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RE: Why Won't BA Expand In The UK? ( Out Of London)

Tue Aug 25, 2015 5:54 pm

Quoting commavia (Reply 2):
why Lufthansa is handing over virtually all of its operations outside FRA/MUC to Eurowings. Namely - the economics of the 'regions' of these countries simply can no longer support the cost structure and business model of European network carriers, at least not beyond (generally) linking said 'regions' to the national hubs.

Not so much that DUS and CGN are not wealthy or lack business passengers, though. It is more that FRA has phenomenal ICE connections to those metro areas, which puts DUS in the FRA catchment area. Point still holds though - it would be almost like the same airline running hubs at EWR and JFK (sadly given NYC public transit speeds, DUS-FRA might be almost as fast as EWR-JFK).

Quoting slinky09 (Reply 59):
Indeed, you could ask why don't the US3 fly to the UK from Austin, Seattle or Pheonix for example? For reasons stated above, it's good to have a hub operation at at least one end of a route.

DL does serve LHR-SEA. But then SEA is not just a DL outstation anymore.
 
fiddlerkrt
Posts: 72
Joined: Tue Jun 16, 2015 7:23 am

RE: Why Won't BA Expand In The UK? ( Out Of London)

Tue Aug 25, 2015 6:17 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 47):
It is not too far ago that BA operated a mini hb at BHX, I used BHX transfer flights quite often, the dedicated terminal was quick easy to use. Giving up the second largest City of a Country is, IMHO unthinkable. .

Birmingham is the second largest city in the country yet MAN has more than twice the number of passengers that BHX does and even EDI has more. BHX is the 7th busiest airport in the UK yet is significantly behind its LON counterparts in terms of air traffic. This either means that people in BHX are flying out of LON or there just isn't that much demand per person as there is in other cities. In any event, BHX is doing pretty well with year round direct flights to DXB, EWR, and JFK and a significant number of flights to the major European hubs.

Quoting BHXLOVER (Reply 51):
At one time, BA could sit waiting at LHR while their customers blindly travelled hundreds of miles to get their flight. However I believe attitudes are changing.

I for one refuse to travel the 100 or so miles to LHR, and always opt to travel from my local airport. My custom therefore goes to Emirates, KLM, Lufthansa or Air France. To me, the prospect of a four hour car journey before and after a long haul flight is unthinkable.

I agree with you and I'm glad you support your local airport. I am faced with a somewhat similar choice when flying from the west coast back to where I grew up in the Baltimore/D.C. region. BWI is a 15-minute drive from my parent's house while IAD is at least an hour without traffic. IAD is cheaper for trans-cons and there is more choice but the drive to/from the airport is hell so there's no way I'll take that option. I'd rather opt for a connection somewhere.

Quoting SKAirbus (Reply 49):
I'm not really sure where all this regional anger about BA comes from. The fact of the matter is that they were priced out the markets they operated in and could not make money outside of London. I'd only understand this anger if there weren't ample connection opportunities from regional destinations in the UK but there are. So... it's probably time to get over it.

I don't know either. I think there is a tendency to compare the UK air market with the likes of Germany and France where LH and AF have far larger domestic networks and in the case of LH two hubs. The simple fact is that the UK is smaller in terms of area and the primary city is seven times larger than the second largest. LHR and LGW alone handle approximately 46% of UK air passengers and are both bursting at the seams hence the lack of flights to the regions.
 
skipness1E
Posts: 4515
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RE: Why Won't BA Expand In The UK? ( Out Of London)

Tue Aug 25, 2015 6:34 pm

Quoting factsonly (Reply 56):
BMI most certainly flew EMA-LHR-EMA with F27 and Shorts 360 (I had the pleasure myself)........and the equipment tells you how long ago this was.

They also bus stopped on a BHX combo as well. BD221 was EMA-LHR I think.......? Remember the ATPs on this.

Quoting hohd (Reply 60):
From the healthy traffic from MAN, it is clear that BA could fly from MAN to some cities in US, and be profitable, especially to some AA hubs.

Google the history on why BA won't touch this. There's a looooong list of threads all about this on here.

Quoting fiddlerkrt (Reply 65):
where LH and AF have far larger domestic networks and in the case of LH two hubs.

Both of which are under massive pressure, LH and AF are taking the pain now BA took years ago. Lufthansa's use of German Wings with Lufthansa pilots on LH Ts&cs but no LH branding to LH passengers out of LH's (former) hubs being rebranded as Eurowings is......a work in progress. BA finally know what they are and are trying to do well inm arkets they can compete in. AF and LH are still getting there. Hop anyone?
 
fiddlerkrt
Posts: 72
Joined: Tue Jun 16, 2015 7:23 am

RE: Why Won't BA Expand In The UK? ( Out Of London)

Tue Aug 25, 2015 6:56 pm

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 66):
Both of which are under massive pressure, LH and AF are taking the pain now BA took years ago. Lufthansa's use of German Wings with Lufthansa pilots on LH Ts&cs but no LH branding to LH passengers out of LH's (former) hubs being rebranded as Eurowings is......a work in progress. BA finally know what they are and are trying to do well inm arkets they can compete in. AF and LH are still getting there. Hop anyone?

Agreed, particularly on routes that don't start or terminate in CDG for AF.
 
GT4EZY
Posts: 514
Joined: Thu Dec 06, 2007 9:35 pm

RE: Why Won't BA Expand In The UK? ( Out Of London)

Tue Aug 25, 2015 11:12 pm

Quoting fiddlerkrt (Reply 65):
Birmingham is the second largest city in the country yet MAN has more than twice the number of passengers that BHX does and even EDI has more. BHX is the 7th busiest airport in the UK yet is significantly behind its LON counterparts in terms of air traffic. This either means that people in BHX are flying out of LON or there just isn't that much demand per person as there is in other cities. In any event, BHX is doing pretty well with year round direct flights to DXB, EWR, and JFK and a significant number of flights to the major European hubs.

A little contentious subject. If you recognise Manchester as Greater Manchester (made up of boroughs in a similar way to London) the Manchester is more akin to second City status. Strictly, strictly speaking I don't think it is (I'm not sure if the UK has an officially recognised second City) but a survey several years ago revealed that most people regard it as such. Either way, England's Northwest economy is significant, similar to the Scandinavian countries I believe and MAN is the Northwest's gateway airport. Factor into that the fact that MAN is pretty much the main airport for the entire Northern England with some overlap as far North as Southern Scotland and parts of the Midlands and that leaves you with a huge catchment area. Birmingham is sandwiched between MAN and LON which I believe will always put it at a disadvantage.
Proud to fly from Manchester!
 
Chaostheory
Posts: 1134
Joined: Wed Mar 06, 2013 2:09 am

RE: Why Won't BA Expand In The UK? ( Out Of London)

Tue Aug 25, 2015 11:25 pm

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 17):
(Manchester is UK's second biggest population area I believe

Not really.

Quoting GT4EZY (Reply 68):
A little contentious subject. If you recognise Manchester as Greater Manchester (made up of boroughs in a similar way to London) the Manchester is more akin to second City status.

If you include Coventry in the Birmingham figures as EU stats do, Birmingham is the 2nd city.

However, as you correctly state, MAN's location lends itself to a far larger market/catchment area than BHX.
 
GT4EZY
Posts: 514
Joined: Thu Dec 06, 2007 9:35 pm

RE: Why Won't BA Expand In The UK? ( Out Of London)

Wed Aug 26, 2015 5:17 am

But in no way is Coventry actually Birmingham. If you'd have perhaps said Dudley or some other West Midland town that surrounds Birmingham then maybe but not Coventry.
Proud to fly from Manchester!
 
Aither
Posts: 1206
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 3:43 am

RE: Why Won't BA Expand In The UK? ( Out Of London)

Wed Aug 26, 2015 5:47 am

BA to start operations outside of London would need to change the cabin configuration of their aircraft (more density to compensate for lower yield traffic). This would impact negatively the brand (see the 787 fiasco) and overall damage the profits of the airline.
Never trust the obvious
 
gkirk
Posts: 23382
Joined: Thu Jun 15, 2000 3:29 am

RE: Why Won't BA Expand In The UK? ( Out Of London)

Wed Aug 26, 2015 6:04 am

Going by actual city size, it's Birmingham, Glasgow, Manchester    with the City of London actually being very tiny.

If going by city area size, then Carlisle is the biggest city in the UK...
When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
 
SKAirbus
Posts: 1535
Joined: Sat Oct 27, 2007 9:18 pm

RE: Why Won't BA Expand In The UK? ( Out Of London)

Wed Aug 26, 2015 12:38 pm

Quoting gkirk (Reply 72):
City of London

This is where people get confused... The City of London is a city and county within Greater London (the latter of which is the largest city in the United Kingdom). Similarly Manchester is considered on Greater Manchester and not just the traditional city area.
Base: BRU
 
Andy33
Posts: 2473
Joined: Tue Sep 15, 2009 9:30 am

RE: Why Won't BA Expand In The UK? ( Out Of London)

Wed Aug 26, 2015 1:28 pm

Quoting SKAirbus (Reply 73):

Its a lot more complicated than that, and probably more than most people in an airline discussion forum want to hear.
For example police in the City of London are in a separate police force than the other 32 local authorities that make up Greater London, but public transport is controlled by the same body for all 33 authorities. I can see eyes glazing over, so I'll stop.

[Edited 2015-08-26 06:44:57]

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