captjetblast
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Will Airshows Be Banned Ever?

Mon Aug 24, 2015 12:54 pm

Just that. Airshows violate basic safety rules. Planes flying too close, at low altitude, and above the crowds.
 
AR385
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RE: Will Airshows Be Banned Ever?

Mon Aug 24, 2015 1:02 pm

Quoting captjetblast (Thread starter):
Just that. Airshows violate basic safety rules. Planes flying too close, at low altitude, and above the crowds.

Would Nascar be banned? Would F1 races be banned? Same principle. Many a spectator has been killed when cars in both circuits and others too, have accidents and debris is thrown into the crowds. Sometimes the CARS have gone into crowds.

Same principle. Going to an airshow is risky. You have to assume it. Not for the government to tell you what to do over your weekends or to decide which spectacles are "dangerous".

Now, if a particular display is being undertaken braking the established safety rules, that is another story.
 
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Thunderboltdrgn
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RE: Will Airshows Be Banned Ever?

Mon Aug 24, 2015 1:10 pm

Quoting captjetblast (Thread starter):


Just that. Airshows violate basic safety rules. Planes flying too close, at low
altitude, and above the crowds.

LIke AR385 says, I find it unlikely that airshows as such would be completely banned. However stricter rules,
more limitations and perhaps more regulations on what is allowed and what is not allowed is another story.
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par13del
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RE: Will Airshows Be Banned Ever?

Mon Aug 24, 2015 1:24 pm

Issue is that some countries already ban the displays over the public, the result has been that the displays are further away from the public but safety is improved.
In the UK incident, the investigation will reveal whether the loop was being done in the proper corridor for the display, as a matter of fact I do not know if the UK has put such rules in place for flying displays.
If they have not, it is an option as opposed to an outright ban, it may very well mean that some airports will not qualify for displays as there is not enough safety margins - clear spaces for the display.
 
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moo
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RE: Will Airshows Be Banned Ever?

Mon Aug 24, 2015 1:34 pm

Quoting captjetblast (Thread starter):
Just that. Airshows violate basic safety rules. Planes flying too close, at low altitude, and above the crowds.

What would it solve? 11 people (so far) have died as a result of the UK crash, and they weren't even in the crowd.

39 people on the ground were killed when El Al Flight 1862 crashed into Amsterdam apartment blocks in 1992. No airshow involved.

5 people on the ground were killed when American Airlines Flight 587 crashed into Queens in 2001. Now airshow involved.

More non-flying people have died in the past as a result of general aviation accidents than have ever been killed as a result of an airshow tragedy.
 
FlyHossD
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RE: Will Airshows Be Banned Ever?

Mon Aug 24, 2015 1:57 pm

I very strongly doubt that airshows will be banned, but some people will call for just that.

Far more likely, IMHO, is a review of the restrictions and a change to the rules. For example, why was the Hawker Hunter over a highway that was still open? Should the display have been prohibited from flying over the roadway? Or the roadway closed during the demonstration?

You may recall the tragic accident at the Reno Air Races in 2011; 11 people - including the pilot - died. Rules were changed as a result (though not all improve saftety, but that's another topic).

2015's air races at Reno are just about 3 weeks away.

[Edited 2015-08-24 06:59:58]
My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.
 
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enilria
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RE: Will Airshows Be Banned Ever?

Mon Aug 24, 2015 2:05 pm

Quoting captjetblast (Thread starter):
Just that. Airshows violate basic safety rules. Planes flying too close, at low altitude, and above the crowds.
Quoting AR385 (Reply 1):
Would Nascar be banned? Would F1 races be banned? Same principle.

The potential for death is much greater than in for auto racing. If you think about it, these incidents that kill people are actually fairly minor. The larger aircraft have not caused any fatalities, but they could and the numbers would be much worse.

I'm torn about it. On one hand you have airplanes flying low at airports all the time and that isn't considered dangerous, but the planes at airshows are doing "dangerous" maneuvers to excite spectators.
 
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moo
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RE: Will Airshows Be Banned Ever?

Mon Aug 24, 2015 2:06 pm

Quoting FlyHossD (Reply 5):
For example, why was the Hawker Hunter over a highway that was still open?

Because its impossible to conduct a display within the boundaries of *any* airfield, and because that road is an arterial road in the region - you can't simply close it.

Quoting FlyHossD (Reply 5):
Should the display have been prohibited from flying over the roadway? Or the roadway closed during the demonstration?

Enact those laws and that would kill airshows in probably 99% of Europe. About the only ones that would still be conducted would be those for seaside resorts, where the displays are done over the sea - of course, the coastguard would have to clear the area of boats for hundreds of square kilometres...

You would lose such airshows as RIAT, Farnborough, Paris etc etc.
 
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moo
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RE: Will Airshows Be Banned Ever?

Mon Aug 24, 2015 2:09 pm

Ahh well, looks like the "safety-at-all-cost" crowd is going to win the day here :/

Quote:

UK's aviation regulator announces "significant restrictions" on vintage jets in air displays after Shoreham crash
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-34044383

The restrictions are, according to the CAA:

Quote:

As a precaution, on Saturday 22 August we took steps to ensure no further flights were made by Hawker Hunter aircraft - this temporary restriction remains in place.

• Flying displays over land by vintage jet aircraft will be significantly restricted until further notice. They will be limited to flypasts, which means ‘high energy’ aerobatics will not be permitted.

• The CAA will conduct additional risk assessments on all forthcoming civil air displays to establish if additional measures should be introduced.

• We commenced a full review of civil air display safety yesterday and held an initial meeting this morning.
http://www.caa.co.uk/application.asp...=7&newstype=n&mode=detail&nid=2479

[Edited 2015-08-24 07:11:22]
 
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Moose135
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RE: Will Airshows Be Banned Ever?

Mon Aug 24, 2015 2:28 pm

Ultimately, it will be insurance companies that set the standards for what is allowable at an air show. If the cost of insurance becomes prohibitive because of the type of aircraft or performances planned for a show, it will force show organizers to plan accordingly.
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Bongodog1964
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RE: Will Airshows Be Banned Ever?

Mon Aug 24, 2015 2:32 pm

In the UK. flying over the crowd line has been banned except in very specific cases since the Farnborough disaster in 1952.

In this instance there was both a major road on the approach and a crowd standing beside it to watch the dispaly for free.

A quick glance at a map does seem to show that Shoreham is constrained by houses at the Southern end of the runway and a major road plus Lancing School at the Northern end.

I'm not too sure why this loop was being flown away from the airfield, the plane was running in from the North and was looping prior to running across the airfield, the loop could have been performed over the airfield, lowering the risk to 3rd parties and providing a better experience to the paying customers.
 
FlyHossD
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RE: Will Airshows Be Banned Ever?

Mon Aug 24, 2015 3:07 pm

Quoting moo (Reply 7):
Enact those laws and that would kill airshows in probably 99% of Europe. About the only ones that would still be conducted would be those for seaside resorts, where the displays are done over the sea - of course, the coastguard would have to clear the area of boats for hundreds of square kilometres...

Not at all. The road could have been closed for less than an hour. Further, the loop should have been performed in front of the crowd:

Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 10):
I'm not too sure why this loop was being flown away from the airfield, the plane was running in from the North and was looping prior to running across the airfield, the loop could have been performed over the airfield, lowering the risk to 3rd parties and providing a better experience to the paying customers.
My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.
 
edmountain
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RE: Will Airshows Be Banned Ever?

Mon Aug 24, 2015 3:12 pm

Quoting moo (Reply 8):
Ahh well, looks like the "safety-at-all-cost" crowd is going to win the day here :/

I hardly think this is the right time for you to play the nanny state card in defense of the status quo. The victims were not even at the airshow; they did not consent to being exposed to its inherent risk. They were just going about their day.

If it was your son or daughter that had been incinerated by a fireball from the sky on their way to work, shopping, visiting friends, etc then perhaps you too would agree it's at least time to pause and reconsider.
 
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moo
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RE: Will Airshows Be Banned Ever?

Mon Aug 24, 2015 3:13 pm

Quoting FlyHossD (Reply 11):
Not at all. The road could have been closed for less than an hour. Further, the loop should have been performed in front of the crowd:

Oh right, an hour would cover the entire air show for minimal disruption would it? Think again...

As for the loop being performed in front of the cloud, without the actual flight path jotted out on a map, you have no idea if all of the loop was conducted away from crowd centre, nor if it was merely the lead in to another display segment which would have been conducted at crowd centre on the exit of the loop...

You also don't know if the intention was to conduct the loop at crowd centre, with the pilot instead being out of position when he actually carried it out.

There are a lot of people making judgements which are completely lacking in information.
 
zanl188
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RE: Will Airshows Be Banned Ever?

Mon Aug 24, 2015 3:15 pm

Has Germany changed its stance of no airshows? As I recall they banned flying displays after the Italian display team crashed at the Ramstein Flugtag some years ago.
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rw774477
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RE: Will Airshows Be Banned Ever?

Mon Aug 24, 2015 3:17 pm

It's been more than 50 years since we've had an incident-free year at airshows. People get hurt at baseball games - even little league

Let the spectator beware !
 
FlyHossD
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RE: Will Airshows Be Banned Ever?

Mon Aug 24, 2015 3:53 pm

Quoting moo (Reply 13):
Oh right, an hour would cover the entire air show for minimal disruption would it? Think again...

Please don't put words in my mouth; I didn't say that there wouldn't be any disruption. But if aerobatic maneuvers were planned for the airspace over the roadway, it should have been closed - and cleared - for that period.

Quoting moo (Reply 13):
As for the loop being performed in front of the cloud, without the actual flight path jotted out on a map, you have no idea if all of the loop was conducted away from crowd centre, nor if it was merely the lead in to another display segment which would have been conducted at crowd centre on the exit of the loop...

You also don't know if the intention was to conduct the loop at crowd centre, with the pilot instead being out of position when he actually carried it out.

Is the UK really that lax? They didn't require a "show plan" from the performer? Yes, I expected more from the U.K.

In my experience, performers who perform outside the previously submitted and approved plan aren't allowed to continue (generally, with an immediate "Knock it off" call over the show frequency), aren't allowed to perform again and aren't invited back.
My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.
 
edmountain
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RE: Will Airshows Be Banned Ever?

Mon Aug 24, 2015 3:58 pm

Quoting rw774477 (Reply 15):
Let the spectator beware

They weren't spectators.
 
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moo
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RE: Will Airshows Be Banned Ever?

Mon Aug 24, 2015 4:02 pm

Quoting FlyHossD (Reply 16):
Please don't put words in my mouth; I didn't say that there wouldn't be any disruption. But if aerobatic maneuvers were planned for the airspace over the roadway, it should have been closed - and cleared - for that period.

I didn't put words in your mouth, that is *exactly* what will happen.

You can't close down the airspace over which a display will happen, as for some aircraft that will be hundreds of square miles.

The only option is to stop doing airshows anywhere other than over the sea at seaside resorts.

Quoting FlyHossD (Reply 16):
Is the UK really that lax? They didn't require a "show plan" from the performer? Yes, I expected more from the U.K.

Display pilots are required to submit their routine for approval and fly to it - this has been mentioned before. That doesn't change anything I have said in my post as *we* don't have access to that routine plan.

Quoting FlyHossD (Reply 16):
In my experience, performers who perform outside the previously submitted and approved plan aren't allowed to continue (generally, with an immediate "Knock it off" call over the show frequency), aren't allowed to perform again and aren't invited back.

And that is exactly what happens in the UK.

Doesn't mean this display wasn't allowed or wasn't within approved parameters. Being slightly out of position is not grounds for calling off the display, unless the display has drifted over the crowd line.
 
PEK777
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RE: Will Airshows Be Banned Ever?

Mon Aug 24, 2015 4:29 pm

jetblueguy22 will probably be the one to push for it, he swings the 'ban-hammer' pretty hard around here
  
 
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flyingturtle
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RE: Will Airshows Be Banned Ever?

Mon Aug 24, 2015 4:31 pm

Quoting ZANL188 (Reply 14):
Has Germany changed its stance of no airshows? As I recall they banned flying displays after the Italian display team crashed at the Ramstein Flugtag some years ago.

Yes, they banned air shows... but they are allowed again. For example I visited the ILA in Berlin back in 2013, watching many displays of F-16, Gripen, Typhoon, Patrouille Suisse... but I noticed that safety rules (distance and height requirements) were stricter than in Switzerland.

I just read on Wikipedia that in Germany, the ILA in Berlin is to date the only event where jet formations (i.e. more than 1 jet plane) are allowed. Maneuvers with very little space between the planes are still forbidden, also at the ILA.

Changes done after Ramstein:
- the spectators have to keep at least 150 meters of distance to the runway
- during the display, at least 250 meters of distance to the spectators
- minimum height of 30 meters in straight ahead flights, in formations at least 100 meters AGL
- "Begegnungsflüge" (encountering flights, literally translated) shall not be done in direction of the spectators
- the spectators shall be overflown at an altitude of at least 300 meters AGL

But also air shows in Switzerland have become much stricter. I remember the Su-27 fighter flying over the crowd, glider planes likewise. Nowadays they have to perform everything on one side of the runway, while the spectators are located on the other side of it.

I would draw a line between formation flights and solo displays. In solo displays, any accident will probably either be caused by a pilot passing out, or a severe problem with the aircraft itself. The chances that the plane will still be controllable (e.g. flying away from the spectators if possible) is much higher. In formation flights, after a collision the planes involved will not be controllable anymore.

But as the light aircraft show - perhaps recovery parachute systems can lead the way.


David
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Classa64
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RE: Will Airshows Be Banned Ever?

Mon Aug 24, 2015 4:36 pm

Can't see them being banned, I do see tighter restrictions and maybe a bigger safety box of air made that they can fly in, also a stupid huge increase in insurance premiums. In Toronto they do it over water, years ago here in North bay they were done over water, and most of the tight turns and loops were done flying away from the shore reducing the possibility of the plane flying into the crowd. Problem with any air show is its possible the plane could have been doing a tight turn to come back to center stage and it crashes then, shutting down hi-ways and roads over a huge area and telling people to stay indoors "IN CASE" a plane crashes is just ridiculous IMHO.

Long live the airshow, its rare enough to see an old plane on the ground let alone in the air, for some of us this is our only chance.
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flyoregon
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RE: Will Airshows Be Banned Ever?

Mon Aug 24, 2015 4:41 pm

As tragic as this incident is, air shows won't be banned. Several years ago at the Oregon Air Show, a Hawker Hunter crashed into some homes killing the pilot. The airport is surrounded by homes and several Intel fabs and many have said the airshow is too close to volatile facilities if an airplane of substance were to crash into them. BUT, the airshow still goes on and will for year to come.
 
747megatop
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RE: Will Airshows Be Banned Ever?

Mon Aug 24, 2015 4:46 pm

Quoting AR385 (Reply 1):
Same principle. Going to an airshow is risky. You have to assume it.

Well, you are

Quoting AR385 (Reply 1):
Would Nascar be banned? Would F1 races be banned? Same principle

You are comparing apples and oranges. The principles are not the same and i think your comparison is not valid simple because the risks in a F1/Nascar race is limited to in & around the race track. I am assuming that this thread started because of the UK incident. In the UK incident the motorists on the motorway never went to the airshow..the airshow CAME to them in a very tragic manner. While banning airshows will not happen...the safety standards (and training levels) will probably be raised...and who knows...certain very risky aerobatics may be banned over land and allowed only over water.

[Edited 2015-08-24 10:02:30]
 
FlyHossD
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RE: Will Airshows Be Banned Ever?

Mon Aug 24, 2015 4:55 pm

Quoting moo (Reply 18):
You can't close down the airspace over which a display will happen, as for some aircraft that will be hundreds of square miles.

That's precisely what is done in my experience (all USA). So when the Blue Angels or Thunderbirds perform, it is indeed a large chunk of airspace (generally a large "box" with an altitude (the top of the box) several thousand feet above the airport elevation).

[Edited 2015-08-24 09:57:30]
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LTU932
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RE: Will Airshows Be Banned Ever?

Mon Aug 24, 2015 5:05 pm

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 20):
I just read on Wikipedia that in Germany, the ILA in Berlin is to date the only event where jet formations (i.e. more than 1 jet plane) are allowed. Maneuvers with very little space between the planes are still forbidden, also at the ILA.

No jets, but at the Hamburg Airport Days this weekend at HAM, we had a helo doing a spectacular flight display. Sure, the first thing I thought was how sceptical people in Germany could be about these flight displays ever since the accident with the Frecce Tricolori in RMS, but speaking for myself, I felt perfectly safe and I trusted those pilots with their work, and it was fun display to watch. I know people were more on awe about the Breitling Super Constellation shooting flames out of the engine exhaust during startup, but nevertheless I know people enjoyed the display, including my boss.
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747megatop
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RE: Will Airshows Be Banned Ever?

Mon Aug 24, 2015 5:12 pm

Quoting moo (Reply 4):
39 people on the ground were killed when El Al Flight 1862 crashed into Amsterdam apartment blocks in 1992. No airshow involved.

5 people on the ground were killed when American Airlines Flight 587 crashed into Queens in 2001. Now airshow involved.

More non-flying people have died in the past as a result of general aviation accidents than have ever been killed as a result of an airshow tragedy.

What's your point? It's like someone saying..drag racing on public streets is dangerous so let's review it....but now someone comes along and throws in a brilliantly dumb argument saying that 30,000+ motorists die annually on US roads anyways so what does reviewing (banning) drag racing solve!!!

While i am not advocating banning airshows; i think every such incident will further tighten safety procedures and training levels involved (and rightly so). Who knows; certain risky moves may be banned all together over land and be allowed only over water.
 
BerenErchamion
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RE: Will Airshows Be Banned Ever?

Mon Aug 24, 2015 5:29 pm

Quoting AR385 (Reply 1):
Would Nascar be banned? Would F1 races be banned? Same principle. Many a spectator has been killed when cars in both circuits and others too, have accidents and debris is thrown into the crowds. Sometimes the CARS have gone into crowds.

Has anyone ever been killed at a race who wasn't at the venue?

Because I'm pretty sure the people going to the grocery store, to visit their parents, to take their kids to the park, etc. who suddenly had a plane fall out of the sky on top of them at Shoreham weren't spectators.
 
BerenErchamion
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RE: Will Airshows Be Banned Ever?

Mon Aug 24, 2015 5:32 pm

Quoting moo (Reply 7):
Because its impossible to conduct a display within the boundaries of *any* airfield, and because that road is an arterial road in the region - you can't simply close it.

If you can't do it without exposing those not involved to significant risk, you shouldn't do it at all.

Spectators who choose to come there are one thing (though the presence of minor children muddies even that a bit). People who have nothing at all to do with it are something else entirely.
 
airshows
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RE: Will Airshows Be Banned Ever?

Mon Aug 24, 2015 5:54 pm

well as my name shows i am an airshow photographer and i go to airshows very regularly this year has been slow for me i have only made it to 5 shows. That being said here in canada they have to stay with in a airshow box with notams that are posted by the airboss. With this crash who knows what happened with the loop because it could have been as simple as a stall. Was the performer given an ACE to surface from ICAS or was he just some guy with lots of hours?
 
lhrnue
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RE: Will Airshows Be Banned Ever?

Mon Aug 24, 2015 8:43 pm

Where is the thread about the Shoreham airshow gone?

Meanwhile restrictions are now in place in UK.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-34044383

"Vintage jets will not be allowed to perform "high-energy aerobatics" over land at air shows after the Shoreham crash, regulators have said.
The Civil Aviation Authority said such planes would be "limited to flypasts", and all Hawker Hunter jets have been temporarily grounded."

[Edited 2015-08-24 13:46:44]
 
rushed
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RE: Will Airshows Be Banned Ever?

Mon Aug 24, 2015 11:12 pm

The world has become a nanny state... Anytime anything bad happens the first reaction is to ban it. From kids playing at school to sports events, travel, adventure sports.. Lets just put things in perspective a bit before we start banning the enjoyment of life totally.
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AR385
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RE: Will Airshows Be Banned Ever?

Mon Aug 24, 2015 11:14 pm

Quoting 747megatop (Reply 23):
You are comparing apples and oranges. The principles are not the same and i think your comparison is not valid simple because the risks in a F1/Nascar race is limited to in & around the race track. I am assuming that this thread started because of the UK incident. In the UK incident the motorists on the motorway never went to the airshow..
Quoting 747megatop (Reply 23):
.the airshow CAME to them in a very tragic manner. While banning airshows will not happen...the safety standards (and training levels) will probably be raised...and who knows...certain very risky aerobatics may be banned over land and allowed only over water.
Quoting BerenErchamion (Reply 27):
Has anyone ever been killed at a race who wasn't at the venue?

747Megatop. No it is not apples and oranges. It is the same. I agree, the risk is limited to in & around the racetrack (in most cases) But I said also this in my post:

Quoting AR385 (Reply 1):
Now, if a particular display is being undertaken braking the established safety rules, that is another story.

If the pilot (speculation here, I don´t know) went outside the designed pattern for his display, then he increased the risk for those outside the airshow and subjected them to a situation they had no choice in. But that is different to how airshows should be conducted.

BerenErchanmion. I don´t know. But, this was a case of the pilot going outside the perimeter that was probably allowed.
 
edmountain
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RE: Will Airshows Be Banned Ever?

Mon Aug 24, 2015 11:30 pm

Quoting rushed (Reply 31):
The world has become a nanny state... Anytime anything bad happens the first reaction is to ban it. From kids playing at school to sports events, travel, adventure sports.. Lets just put things in perspective a bit before we start banning the enjoyment of life totally.

Stuff and nonsense. These poor people were simply going about their day and they got wiped out from above. There's no defense for that and it's certainly not being a nanny state to ask for it not to happen again.

Let people enjoy their air shows for sure, but not in a way that they mimic a drone attack.
 
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mayor
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RE: Will Airshows Be Banned Ever?

Mon Aug 24, 2015 11:35 pm

Quoting 747megatop (Reply 26):
.drag racing on public streets is dangerous so let's review it.

I'm having trouble thinking where drag racing on public streets is legal, anyway........  
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BerenErchamion
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RE: Will Airshows Be Banned Ever?

Mon Aug 24, 2015 11:58 pm

Quoting AR385 (Reply 32):
this was a case of the pilot going outside the perimeter that was probably allowed.

What reliable public statements are you basing this assertion on?

Quoting rushed (Reply 31):
The world has become a nanny state... Anytime anything bad happens the first reaction is to ban it. From kids playing at school to sports events, travel, adventure sports.. Lets just put things in perspective a bit before we start banning the enjoyment of life totally.

Yes, that damned "nanny state," making sure people undertaking risky activities don't kill people who are completely uninvolved.
 
prebennorholm
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RE: Will Airshows Be Banned Ever?

Tue Aug 25, 2015 12:22 am

Quoting lhrnue (Reply 30):
Where is the thread about the Shoreham airshow gone?

I found it in the military forum https://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/military/read.main/169363/

Yup, a civil plane crashes at a civil airshow on a civil airfield, and the a.net thread ends up in the military forum.

Maybe because the plane involved was owned by the military half a century ago?
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AirportRival
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RE: Will Airshows Be Banned Ever?

Tue Aug 25, 2015 12:26 am

Should everything that requires movement be banned? Let's go ahead and ban rollercoasters since people die on them. How about pools? Don't need kids drowning do we? Trains derail and kill people. Cars crash and kill people. Animals attack and kill people. MOTHER NATURE KILLS PEOPLE. You can't prevent innocent people from dying. The world isn't a fair place and it never will be. The way some of you think just absolutely boggles me.
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BerenErchamion
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RE: Will Airshows Be Banned Ever?

Tue Aug 25, 2015 12:49 am

Quoting AirportRival (Reply 37):
Let's go ahead and ban rollercoasters since people die on them

Has anyone been killed by a roller coaster who wasn't on the roller coaster?

Quoting AirportRival (Reply 37):
How about pools? Don't need kids drowning do we?

Has anyone been killed in a pool who didn't choose to be around the pool?

Quoting AirportRival (Reply 37):
Trains derail and kill people.

How many people have been killed because they were just going about their business when the train derailed and fell on them? And complicating the issue with trains is that they serve an important role in the smooth functioning of society, such that maybe we as a society can accept a certain level of risk to non-participants because of the essential role trains serve. But if we stop air shows, society will continue on just fine.

This isn't difficult--the problem with the air shows isn't just that they kill people, it's that they kill people who had nothing at all to do with the air show, and all for the sake of entertainment. If adults want to take their chances by attending an air show, that's their business. People minding their own business not at all involved, who didn't make the choice to be at the air show, are a different matter.

Quoting AirportRival (Reply 37):
MOTHER NATURE KILLS PEOPLE. You can't prevent innocent people from dying.

You're absolutely right. Since there are no perfect solutions, we shouldn't even bother trying to do the best we can. We can never save all cancer patients, so we shouldn't treat cancer. People still die in car wrecks, so seatbelts are pointless. There's no need to install lightning rods on towers since every now and then someone gets struck by lightning. Why should I wear a condom when they have a 12% failure rate? Since it's possible that you might miss something and get hit anyway, you needn't look both ways before you cross the street.

[Edited 2015-08-24 17:50:56]

[Edited 2015-08-24 17:51:16]
 
N1120A
Posts: 26496
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

RE: Will Airshows Be Banned Ever?

Tue Aug 25, 2015 1:17 am

Airshows should never, ever be banned.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
AR385
Posts: 6924
Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2003 8:25 am

RE: Will Airshows Be Banned Ever?

Tue Aug 25, 2015 1:20 am

Quoting BerenErchamion (Reply 35):
What reliable public statements are you basing this assertion on?

1) The fact that he actually crashed OUTSIDE the perimeter.

2) None. Key word being "PROBABLY" see:

Quoting AR385 (Reply 32):
this was a case of the pilot going outside the perimeter that was probably allowed.

I also used the word speculation. I may be wrong.
 
lweber557
Posts: 118
Joined: Fri Jul 09, 2010 11:52 pm

RE: Will Airshows Be Banned Ever?

Tue Aug 25, 2015 4:31 am

Quoting captjetblast (Thread starter):

Just that. Airshows violate basic safety rules. Planes flying too close, at low altitude, and above the crowds.

I don't know how they it in other countries but in US they get waivers from the FAA to fly at high speed/low altitude. They don't fly above the crowds.From show center it looks like they're above the runway but they're actually above the opposite side of the runway from the crowd. Also they put TFR's out around the airfields that host the shows to keep air traffic away. Don't know what to say about the "flying too close" thing. I mean the Blue Angels can fly 18" apart but those pilots are the cream of the crop. Not to mention they spend months training before the airshow season begins and practice their routine during the week before shows,
FAA Licensed Aircraft Dispatcher
 
Grummancat
Posts: 133
Joined: Sat Feb 05, 2011 4:49 am

RE: Will Airshows Be Banned Ever?

Tue Aug 25, 2015 6:36 am

Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 10):
In the UK. flying over the crowd line has been banned except in very specific cases since the Farnborough disaster in 1952.

And most staggering, after cleaning up the mess at Farnborough,

THEY.

RESUMED.

THE.

AIR.

SHOW.

As mentioned in this documentary at 23:30
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xNJl_EijuWA
 
RickNRoll
Posts: 1793
Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2012 9:30 am

RE: Will Airshows Be Banned Ever?

Tue Aug 25, 2015 7:42 am

Quoting moo (Reply 4):
What would it solve? 11 people (so far) have died as a result of the UK crash, and they weren't even in the crowd.

That's the point, isn't it. At least if you are in the crowd you know the risk you are taking. The people killed had nothing to do with the Airshow and were killed. If you are going to have high risk flying, at least confine it to somewhere that won't kill people who have nothing to do with the event.
 
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fallap
Posts: 981
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2009 11:36 am

RE: Will Airshows Be Banned Ever?

Tue Aug 25, 2015 7:54 am

At Paris Airshow 2015, the planes did not fly over the crowds.
Ex grease monkey buried head to toe inside an F-16M
Now studying Political Science
 
User avatar
flyingturtle
Posts: 5656
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2011 1:39 pm

RE: Will Airshows Be Banned Ever?

Tue Aug 25, 2015 8:39 am

Quoting RickNRoll (Reply 43):
at least confine it to somewhere that won't kill people who have nothing to do with the event.

This would be quite prohibitive... in the case of jet fighters, extreme stunts could be only flown at airports like Elmendorf AFB or Eglin AFB (as examples) where any crash would occur in closed military areas, or in a non-populated area.


David
Reading accident reports is what calms me down
 
starrymarkb
Posts: 285
Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2011 9:19 pm

RE: Will Airshows Be Banned Ever?

Tue Aug 25, 2015 8:59 am

Quoting) Rushed - Post 31:
The world has become a nanny state... Anytime anything bad happens the first reaction is to ban it. From kids playing at school to sports events, travel, adventure sports.. Lets just put things in perspective a bit before we start banning the enjoyment of life totally.

Aviation Authorities are by their nature risk adverse, with this not being the first vintage jet to crash with fatalities at a UK airshow this year, I can fully understand why the CAA is taking an interest and restricting displays until more is known about the causes of both this crash and the one involving the Gnat at Carfest. I wouldn't be surprised if displays resume next year with new regulations taking in any lessons learnt from the crashes this year.

[Edited 2015-08-25 02:03:34]

[Edited 2015-08-25 02:29:59]

[Edited 2015-08-25 02:40:17]
 
AR385
Posts: 6924
Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2003 8:25 am

RE: Will Airshows Be Banned Ever?

Tue Aug 25, 2015 9:22 am

Quoting starrymarkb (Reply 46):
Aviation Authorities are by their nature risk adverse, with this not being the first vintage jet to crash with fatalities at a UK airshow this year, I can fully understand why the CAA is taking an interest and restricting displays until more is known about the causes of both this crash and the one involving the Gnat at Carfest. I wouldn't be surprised if displays resume next year with new regulations taking in any lessons learnt from the crashes this year.

Hello, you have posted the above in response to:

Quoting starrymarkb (Reply 46):
Quoting AR385 (Reply 32):
The world has become a nanny state... Anytime anything bad happens the first reaction is to ban it. From kids playing at school to sports events, travel, adventure sports.. Lets just put things in perspective a bit before we start banning the enjoyment of life totally.

I have not posted that nor written it. Not sure why it appears as something written by me.

I hope you can rectify it as said post does not reflect at all my views, and again, it was not written by me.

Regards and good day.
 
rushed
Posts: 244
Joined: Tue May 23, 2000 3:48 pm

RE: Will Airshows Be Banned Ever?

Tue Aug 25, 2015 9:27 am

Quoting mayor (Reply 34):
Stuff and nonsense. These poor people were simply going about their day and they got wiped out from above. There's no defense for that and it's certainly not being a nanny state to ask for it not to happen again.

Let people enjoy their air shows for sure, but not in a way that they mimic a drone attack.

Investigating the cause and understanding why this occurred should be the first step. Once the cause has been assessed we can assess the likelihood of it happening again and make appropriate conclusions. An outright ban, which is the subject of this post, is a knee jerk reaction to a more complex question and does in my view represent the nanny state of affairs the media and governments of today seem to love. In some cases using emotional events to drive agendas not necessarily based on actual risk.

On the logic of banning all air shows over public space, what about banning all airports near roads, houses, populated areas - there have been many commercial flights crashed in populated areas too. Of course, the latter hasn't happened because a risk assessment has been conducted and determined that the risk is acceptable. Statistically you're probably safer in the area around the airport where the accident happened than living under a flight path for heathrow or new york. While I have sympathy for those who have lost loved ones, I don't think that outright bans on anything are a productive way forward for reducing actual risk, rather than perceived risk based on emotional language and images.

I think relating it to a drone attack isn't that productive for the discussion - drones are an intentional act to cause damage, whereas what we are looking at is an accident - unless any investigation proves otherwise, and thus their comparison from a risk assessment perspective is irrelevant.
travel blogging enthusiast :)
 
starrymarkb
Posts: 285
Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2011 9:19 pm

RE: Will Airshows Be Banned Ever?

Tue Aug 25, 2015 9:34 am

Quoting AR385 (Reply 47):
have not posted that nor written it. Not sure why it appears as something written by me.

I hope you can rectify it as said post does not reflect at all my views, and again, it was not written by me.

Regards and good day.

My apologies, Ah, it was post 31 I intended to quote. I accidentally clicked the "Quote" underneath the selected text, meaning my quote linked to your post

[Edited 2015-08-25 02:39:20]

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