BerenErchamion
Posts: 227
Joined: Thu May 28, 2015 12:44 am

RE: Will Airshows Be Banned Ever?

Tue Aug 25, 2015 3:36 pm

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 45):
This would be quite prohibitive... in the case of jet fighters, extreme stunts could be only flown at airports like Elmendorf AFB or Eglin AFB (as examples) where any crash would occur in closed military areas, or in a non-populated area.


OK, and?

If you can't do something without causing significant risk to those who are in no way involved with the event, maybe you shouldn't be doing it at all.

Activities that are pretty fundamental to the functioning of our society are one thing (though we should try to minimize risk in those areas as well), and maybe there are reasonable trade-offs to be made in those cases. But aerobatic demonstrations don't really fall into that category.
 
WPIAeroGuy
Posts: 319
Joined: Tue Aug 21, 2007 11:52 pm

RE: Will Airshows Be Banned Ever?

Tue Aug 25, 2015 5:08 pm

Quoting rushed (Reply 48):

Perfect response. Investigating the root cause of the accident and taking reasonable measures to prevent it from happening again is what should happen.

Quoting BerenErchamion (Reply 50):
OK, and?

If you can't do something without causing significant risk to those who are in no way involved with the event, maybe you shouldn't be doing it at all.

You're confusing risk with consequences, which unfortunately is far to common among people. A well-maintained aircraft flown by a competent pilot performing a planned routine poses very little risk to those on the ground. Living near a nuclear power plant also poses very little risk. Of course people get freaked out because the consequences can be catastrophic and scary, but in reality there are far more dangerous activities you can die from which are much less spectacular and cause far less outrage.
-WPIAeroGuy
 
lhrnue
Posts: 301
Joined: Sat Jun 05, 2010 2:47 pm

RE: Will Airshows Be Banned Ever?

Tue Aug 25, 2015 6:53 pm

Quoting rushed (Reply 48):
Investigating the cause and understanding why this occurred should be the first step. Once the cause has been assessed we can assess the likelihood of it happening again and make appropriate conclusions. An outright ban, which is the subject of this post, is a knee jerk reaction to a more complex question and does in my view represent the nanny state of affairs the media and governments of today seem to love. In some cases using emotional events to drive agendas not necessarily based on actual risk.

Based on that logic the 787 should have kept flying while the cause of the battery incident was investigated?
 
edmountain
Posts: 232
Joined: Sat Mar 15, 2014 10:00 pm

RE: Will Airshows Be Banned Ever?

Tue Aug 25, 2015 7:20 pm

Quoting WPIAeroGuy (Reply 51):
You're confusing risk with consequences, which unfortunately is far to common among people. A well-maintained aircraft flown by a competent pilot performing a planned routine poses very little risk to those on the ground. Living near a nuclear power plant also poses very little risk.

And you're talking about risk without also considering benefit (or lack thereof). Moreover, risk assessment always considers the consequences--they cannot be separated.

Benefit of airshows: you get to see a toy plane do a loop-d-loop.
Risk: sudden death.

I've got no problem if people want to accept that risk, but it should not be extended to those who were not asked/did not consent.

Quoting WPIAeroGuy (Reply 51):
Of course people get freaked out because the consequences can be catastrophic and scary, but in reality there are far more dangerous activities you can die from which are much less spectacular and cause far less outrage.

The victims we know of so far wanted nothing to do with the airshow. You cannot extrapolate from someone choosing to partake in an activity whilst aware of its risk to this situation.
 
diverted
Posts: 1238
Joined: Sat May 17, 2014 3:17 pm

RE: Will Airshows Be Banned Ever?

Tue Aug 25, 2015 7:33 pm

Quoting edmountain (Reply 53):
And you're talking about risk without also considering benefit (or lack thereof). Moreover, risk assessment always considers the consequences--they cannot be separated.

Benefit of airshows: you get to see a toy plane do a loop-d-loop.
Risk: sudden death.

I've got no problem if people want to accept that risk, but it should not be extended to those who were not asked/did not consent.

I agree with a risk assessment;

Quoting RickNRoll (Reply 43):
That's the point, isn't it. At least if you are in the crowd you know the risk you are taking. The people killed had nothing to do with the Airshow and were killed. If you are going to have high risk flying, at least confine it to somewhere that won't kill people who have nothing to do with the event.

I guess we shouldn't have any buildings near airports then..The people in the hotel F-BTSC landed on weren't involved.

Or sidewalks. The kid who is riding his bike down the sidewalk and gets hit by a car has nothing to do with it.

Accidents happen. It's life. If we want to go about banning everything that poses risk, then what's the point? Might as well go about in bubblesuits. Life's risky. The people that plane landed on could have been hit by a car, or any number of things. Does that make it any less tragic? Of course not. But, people die all the time due to things they had nothing to do with.

I know people are going to disagree, and I understand mine may not be the popular opinion. But, you only live once. So many people are so focused on perpetuating their existence that I think they're forgetting to live.
 
edmountain
Posts: 232
Joined: Sat Mar 15, 2014 10:00 pm

RE: Will Airshows Be Banned Ever?

Tue Aug 25, 2015 7:55 pm

Quoting diverted (Reply 54):
I guess we shouldn't have any buildings near airports then..The people in the hotel F-BTSC landed on weren't involved.

Or sidewalks. The kid who is riding his bike down the sidewalk and gets hit by a car has nothing to do with it.

I guess you missed the thing I said about also considering potential benefits?

Airports, sidewalks, roads, etc all bring a net benefit to society. In fact there's a strong case to be made for such things to be necessary in order for society to function. As a result, we all consent (implicitly) to some small degree of risk for their usage so we can receive that benefit.

The benefit of an airshow is that you get to see a toy plane do a loop-d-loop; most of us don't find that very helpful in the long term. Keep doing it, by all means, but do it someplace where the inevitable accident doesn't transform into death from above to everyone else who's not involved.

Quoting diverted (Reply 54):
Accidents happen. It's life. If we want to go about banning everything that poses risk, then what's the point? Might as well go about in bubblesuits. Life's risky. The people that plane landed on could have been hit by a car, or any number of things. Does that make it any less tragic? Of course not. But, people die all the time due to things they had nothing to do with.

I know people are going to disagree, and I understand mine may not be the popular opinion. But, you only live once. So many people are so focused on perpetuating their existence that I think they're forgetting to live.

Go ahead and live your life. Base jump off of tall buildings if you want, just make sure there's nobody down below so you don't flatten them if your parachute fails.
 
David L
Posts: 8551
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 2:26 am

RE: Will Airshows Be Banned Ever?

Tue Aug 25, 2015 7:55 pm

Quoting Grummancat (Reply 42):
And most staggering, after cleaning up the mess at Farnborough,

THEY.

RESUMED.

THE.

AIR.

SHOW.

It was 1952 - a completely different era. "Keep calm and carry on" was still fresh in the minds of most of those present. Compared to the situation today, even civil aircraft were dropping out of the skies with monotonous regularity. Of course things are different now.

Quoting rushed (Reply 48):
Investigating the cause and understanding why this occurred should be the first step.

Exactly. Until we have better idea of what happened and why none of us is in a position to be be judge, jury and executioner.


Quoting lhrnue (Reply 52):
Based on that logic the 787 should have kept flying while the cause of the battery incident was investigated?

To be fair, temporary measures have been put into place, including the grounding of all Hunters pending an investigation.
 
RobertS975
Posts: 947
Joined: Sun Aug 14, 2005 2:17 am

RE: Will Airshows Be Banned Ever?

Tue Aug 25, 2015 8:01 pm

I have been to many airshows in the USA, and at every one of them, the crowds either on the tramac or adjacent to the airport have been overflown... Blue Angels, Thunderbirds and Canadian Snowbirds.
 
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exFWAOONW
Posts: 671
Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2009 10:32 pm

RE: Will Airshows Be Banned Ever?

Tue Aug 25, 2015 8:44 pm

Quoting edmountain (Reply 12):
If it was your son or daughter that had been incinerated by a fireball from the sky on their way to work, shopping, visiting friends, etc then perhaps you too would agree it's at least time to pause and reconsider.

I doubt that I would. It was an accident, life is risky and the nanny state cannot change that.

Quoting rushed (Reply 31):
The world has become a nanny state... Anytime anything bad happens the first reaction is to ban it. From kids playing at school to sports events, travel, adventure sports.. Lets just put things in perspective a bit before we start banning the enjoyment of life totally.

Too late for that. Many fun activities have been banned because one out millions had a problem. Dodgeball, anyone?

Quoting BerenErchamion (Reply 38):
Has anyone been killed by a roller coaster who wasn't on the roller coaster?

Yes, several, actually. Just last week someone on the ground (not on the coaster) was killed at Cedar Point. Someone getting killed by someone/something they had no relationship with happens every day. Life is not without risk.

Quoting rushed (Reply 48):
While I have sympathy for those who have lost loved ones, I don't think that outright bans on anything are a productive way forward for reducing actual risk, rather than perceived risk based on emotional language and images.

A fair and reasonable approach that benefits everyone in the long run.

Quoting edmountain (Reply 53):
Benefit of airshows: you get to see a toy plane do a loop-d-loop.
Risk: sudden death.

Benefit of breathing: you get to live for another minute or so
Risk: sudden death (you don't know where that air has been)

There is no way to create a world where accidents won't happen. Reducing risk for the sake of reducing risk is fallacy and we are all dimished for the attempt.
Is just me, or is flying not as much fun anymore?
 
edmountain
Posts: 232
Joined: Sat Mar 15, 2014 10:00 pm

RE: Will Airshows Be Banned Ever?

Tue Aug 25, 2015 8:52 pm

Quoting exFWAOONW (Reply 58):
Benefit of breathing: you get to live for another minute or so
Risk: sudden death (you don't know where that air has been)

There is no way to create a world where accidents won't happen. Reducing risk for the sake of reducing risk is fallacy and we are all dimished for the attempt.

That's a complete straw man argument: if you do not breath then death is inevitable so there's really no choice if you want to live.

What happened in Shoreham was death from above pure and simple. There's no need for it.
 
diverted
Posts: 1238
Joined: Sat May 17, 2014 3:17 pm

RE: Will Airshows Be Banned Ever?

Tue Aug 25, 2015 9:02 pm

Quoting edmountain (Reply 55):
The benefit of an airshow is that you get to see a toy plane do a loop-d-loop; most of us don't find that very helpful in the long term. Keep doing it, by all means, but do it someplace where the inevitable accident doesn't transform into death from above to everyone else who's not involved.

I got bit by the aviation bug at a young age, at, of all things, an airshow. Many of my engineer/pilot/AME/etc friends have similar experiences. I'd say that's a net benefit to society, versus them being labour for example.

Ultimately we have to co-exist. Unfortunately accidents happen.

Quoting edmountain (Reply 55):
Airports, sidewalks, roads, etc all bring a net benefit to society. In fact there's a strong case to be made for such things to be necessary in order for society to function. As a result, we all consent (implicitly) to some small degree of risk for their usage so we can receive that benefit.

Concorde benefitted a small percentage of people, but I could argue it didn't bring a benefit to society as a whole. Had that flight been a 777 or anything other than Concorde, no disaster. So, by your logic we shouldn't have allowed Concorde, beecause all it was was unneccessarily fast transport that ended up killing people uninvolved.

I apologize if the tone of that came off rudely, it wasn't intentional and I can't really find a better way to write it. The point I'm trying to make is that accidents happen. We can legislate tons of things in order to try and make the world a safer place, but do we all want to live in that world? A few people died in a few airshow accidents, I get it. It's tragic. But people die EVERY single day due to tons of things they aren't involved in. Unfortunately life isn't "fair" and people will die. But, I'd prefer that world to one where all of the fun is taken away from everyone.
 
rushed
Posts: 245
Joined: Tue May 23, 2000 3:48 pm

RE: Will Airshows Be Banned Ever?

Tue Aug 25, 2015 9:04 pm

Quoting WPIAeroGuy (Reply 51):

Quoting rushed (Reply 48):

Perfect response. Investigating the root cause of the accident and taking reasonable measures to prevent it from happening again is what should happen.

Quoting BerenErchamion (Reply 50):
OK, and?

If you can't do something without causing significant risk to those who are in no way involved with the event, maybe you shouldn't be doing it at all.

You're confusing risk with consequences, which unfortunately is far to common among people. A well-maintained aircraft flown by a competent pilot performing a planned routine poses very little risk to those on the ground. Living near a nuclear power plant also poses very little risk. Of course people get freaked out because the consequences can be catastrophic and scary, but in reality there are far more dangerous activities you can die from which are much less spectacular and cause far less outrage.

Thanks WPIAeroGuy and well said regarding risk vs consequence. As you have pointed out likelihood of occurrence and the consequence of occurrence are two different metrics which only when combined determines the overall risk level.

Quoting lhrnue (Reply 52):

Based on that logic the 787 should have kept flying while the cause of the battery incident was investigated?

Yes - and it did. The 787 battery incident had a series of similar events occur on a new type of aircraft that recently entered into service. After the first event, the remainder of the fleet did continue to fly for several days. It wasn't until after other similar incidents occurred in relatively rapid succession that the fleet was grounded. Risk assessment isn't a once off event, its continuous. My assumption is that the airlines, FAA, Boeing were making ongoing risk assessments during the course of the series of events and determined that the likelihood of an event occurring increased. Given the smaller fleet size at the time, the likelihood of an event occurring for the remainder of the fleet rose to a point that they considered grounding to be an appropriate response. The consequence didn't change - based on observations, the likelihood of a consequence however did and thus the grounding.

There are lots of negative consequences that can happen to people that are not involved in the events leading up to that consequence. I could list many but that would be arguing using emotion rather than facts. Unfortunately the result of knee jerk responses to ban or prohibit events or activities before considering all the facts is that we end up with poor decision making based on emotive responses rather than a comprehensive evaluation of the actual risks. My view is that decisions should be made on rational investigation of evidence rather than emotive decision making.
travel blogging enthusiast :)
 
flipdewaf
Posts: 2971
Joined: Thu Jul 20, 2006 6:28 am

RE: Will Airshows Be Banned Ever?

Tue Aug 25, 2015 9:37 pm

Quoting edmountain (Reply 55):
The benefit of an airshow is that you get to see a toy plane do a loop-d-loop; most of us don't find that very helpful in the long term. Keep doing it, by all means, but do it someplace where the inevitable accident doesn't transform into death from above to everyone else who's not involved.

Civilised society needs recreation, that's what makes us civilised. If someone's recreation puts another at risk then it is up to society to determine if that risk is acceptable and if needs be control the risks in an appropriate manner.

It's no good grounding vintage jets if the problem was with something not solely attributable to them, this would actually make airshows more dangerous. The most important part of solving any problem is knowing what the problem is.

Fred
Image
 
lweber557
Posts: 118
Joined: Fri Jul 09, 2010 11:52 pm

RE: Will Airshows Be Banned Ever?

Wed Aug 26, 2015 12:34 am

Quoting RobertS975 (Reply 57):
I have been to many airshows in the USA, and at every one of them, the crowds either on the tramac or adjacent to the airport have been overflown... Blue Angels, Thunderbirds and Canadian Snowbirds.

They make passes over the crowd but they do the close breaks, knife-edge passes, and other "risky"maneuvers on the opposite side of the airfield.
FAA Licensed Aircraft Dispatcher
 
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exFWAOONW
Posts: 671
Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2009 10:32 pm

RE: Will Airshows Be Banned Ever?

Wed Aug 26, 2015 7:39 pm

Quoting edmountain (Reply 59):
That's a complete straw man argument

I'm glad you know what that is, as I was just echoing your straw-man arugement. Again, I'm sad/disappointed that this happened, but will not advocate a complete ban as a knee-jerk response to a single event.
Is just me, or is flying not as much fun anymore?
 
captjetblast
Topic Author
Posts: 289
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2001 5:59 am

RE: Will Airshows Be Banned Ever?

Thu Aug 27, 2015 4:13 pm

Quoting moo (Reply 4):

Quoting captjetblast (Thread starter):
Just that. Airshows violate basic safety rules. Planes flying too close, at low altitude, and above the crowds.

What would it solve? 11 people (so far) have died as a result of the UK crash, and they weren't even in the crowd.

39 people on the ground were killed when El Al Flight 1862 crashed into Amsterdam apartment blocks in 1992. No airshow involved.

5 people on the ground were killed when American Airlines Flight 587 crashed into Queens in 2001. Now airshow involved.

More non-flying people have died in the past as a result of general aviation accidents than have ever been killed as a result of an airshow tragedy.

How many commercial flights vs. how many accidents in commercial flights?

The same ratio in airshows vs. accidents should be computed.
 
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mayor
Posts: 6218
Joined: Sun Mar 09, 2008 3:58 pm

RE: Will Airshows Be Banned Ever?

Thu Aug 27, 2015 4:27 pm

Quoting captjetblast (Reply 65):

How many commercial flights vs. how many accidents in commercial flights?

The same ratio in airshows vs. accidents should be computed.

Shouldn't the computation be how many people are killed in commercial accidents compared to a total of all commercial flights AND

How many people are killed in airshows (spectators, etc./non-specators) vs the total of all airshows?
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
 
Viscount724
Posts: 19316
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:32 pm

RE: Will Airshows Be Banned Ever?

Sat Aug 29, 2015 2:35 am

Quoting David L (Reply 56):
Quoting Grummancat (Reply 42):
And most staggering, after cleaning up the mess at Farnborough,

THEY.

RESUMED.

THE.

AIR.

SHOW.

It was 1952 - a completely different era. "Keep calm and carry on" was still fresh in the minds of most of those present.

Reminds me of the Heysel Stadium disaster in Brussels 33 years later (1985) when 39 fans were crushed to death and about 600 injured at a football (soccer) match. The game continued after the dead and injured were removed.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heysel_Stadium_disaster
 
flyDTW1992
Posts: 1053
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2015 1:04 am

RE: Will Airshows Be Banned Ever?

Sat Aug 29, 2015 2:52 am

Quoting exFWAOONW (Reply 58):
Reducing risk for the sake of reducing risk is fallacy and we are all dimished for the attempt.

Wait, what? I don't understand what you mean. Reducing risk "for the sake of reducing risk" is all it ever is...There's not another reason. Stopping people from getting killed and airplanes from being destroyed. End of story.
Now you're flying smart

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