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caleb1
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Surplus Of SUA Flight Attendants At LAX And SFO

Thu Aug 27, 2015 6:57 pm

With the recent announcement of UA transferring the bulk of long haul flying to the sCO 787s on the west coast, what is going to happen to the sUA FAs? There are only so many options for domestic flying out of the LAX and SFO bases and of course, many of these routes are well covered by sCO crews. I hope UAL can find a way to accommodate the sUA FAs without having to resort to more furloughs.
 
flyboy80
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RE: Surplus Of SUA Flight Attendants At LAX And SFO

Thu Aug 27, 2015 7:00 pm

Do we have any insiders who may know what the breakdown is in the west where sCO and sUA have FA bases along side each other?

Didn't sUA just start a flight attendant class for the first time in many years?
 
N1120A
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RE: Surplus Of SUA Flight Attendants At LAX And SFO

Thu Aug 27, 2015 7:01 pm

I'm guessing they are banking on having a contract before then. The problem with the 787 flying is that the nearest sCO international base is in Houston, as sCO has split bases. Huge amount of deadheading has gone on because of that.
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caleb1
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RE: Surplus Of SUA Flight Attendants At LAX And SFO

Thu Aug 27, 2015 7:07 pm

Quoting flyboy80 (Reply 1):
Didn't sUA just start a flight attendant class for the first time in many years?

Yes. All based at JFK, which will be closed in October.
 
Rdh3e
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RE: Surplus Of SUA Flight Attendants At LAX And SFO

Thu Aug 27, 2015 7:15 pm

Quoting caleb1 (Reply 3):
Yes. All based at JFK, which will be closed in October.

Was it not changed to "NYC", with the base serving EWR and JFK?
 
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adamblang
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RE: Surplus Of SUA Flight Attendants At LAX And SFO

Thu Aug 27, 2015 7:38 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 2):
I'm guessing they are banking on having a contract before then.

I certainly hope so.
 
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LAXintl
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RE: Surplus Of SUA Flight Attendants At LAX And SFO

Thu Aug 27, 2015 7:42 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 2):
The problem with the 787 flying is that the nearest sCO international base is in Houston, as sCO has split bases. Huge amount of deadheading has gone on because of that.

sCO has had LAX international FA base (LAI & LLS) since atleast 2013 with about 550 folks as of this July.
sCO LAX domestic side has about 600 additional FAs.
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usflyguy
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RE: Surplus Of SUA Flight Attendants At LAX And SFO

Thu Aug 27, 2015 7:49 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 6):
sCO has had LAX international FA base (LAI & LLS) since atleast 2013 with about 550 folks as of this July.

and it is extremely senior.
My post is my ideas and my opinions only, I do not represent the ideas or opinions of anyone else or company.
 
flyboy80
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RE: Surplus Of SUA Flight Attendants At LAX And SFO

Thu Aug 27, 2015 8:09 pm

Didn't CO have an LAX base which closed post September 11? How large was it?

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 6):
sCO has had LAX international FA base (LAI & LLS) since atleast 2013 with about 550 folks as of this July.
sCO LAX domestic side has about 600 additional FAs.

So on the sCO side theres around 1100 in LAX? How about sUA?

Curious what the break downs are in other bases as well? And are there any bases, such as IAD, which only have crews from either sUA or sCO?
 
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jetblastdubai
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RE: Surplus Of SUA Flight Attendants At LAX And SFO

Thu Aug 27, 2015 8:21 pm

Quoting caleb1 (Thread starter):
With the recent announcement of UA transferring the bulk of long haul flying to the sCO 787s on the west coast, what is going to happen to the sUA FAs?

With the very recent flight plan change from beefing up IAH with 787 flying to making LAX 100% 787 long-haul Int'l flying and swapping out 777 and 747 flying at SFO for 787s, United might be addressing two problems at once. People have been discussing, in another thread, the operational advantages of putting the 787s on the longer routes out of LA and SF and making LAX a single-type long haul base. No question those are good moves.

Regarding AFA, if I have my information correct, until AFA gets a unified contract, sUA and sCO cannot fly any aircraft that belonged to the other company A/C pre-merger. In short, sCO cannot fly a PW 777 or 744 and sUA cannot fly a GE 777 or 787 (until the CO orders have been fulfilled and the UA orders are delivered). By taking all the PW 777s out of LAX and a few out of SFO, UA has removed a lot of sUA AFA positions at those bases. These ultra-senior FAs will either need to transfer to other domiciles to continue to fly Int'l widebodies or they will end up flying domestic legs on narrowbodies and force the low-seniority FAs to transfer bases where positions might be available. Not sure if AFA is still allowing UA to hired furloughed sUA FAs to the sCO side (which is getting more new planes).

Regardless of where these sUA FA end up, it's going to cause a major inconvenience for them as well as a drop in net-pay. Moving domiciles or commuting with a crash pad will be expensive. Losing Int'l over-ride pay will hurt a little. Getting furloughed and/or being moved to the bottom of the seniority list at sCO will result in a definite hardship.

This might be a move that will really make AFA bite the bullet and come up with some sort of joint agreement so they can finally become one work group. Closing SEA had to be a huge hit to one of sUA's more senior AFA bases. SF and LA can't be far behind in the number and percentage of very senior FAs.
 
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RyanairGuru
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RE: Surplus Of SUA Flight Attendants At LAX And SFO

Thu Aug 27, 2015 8:22 pm

The presumption by the airline is clearly that there will be an integrated contract by then, but if not the sUA FAs will still have jobs. The sUA side isn't shrinking in terms of fleet, especially with the decision to extend the life of the 763 and keep the 77As on domestic/Hawaii. There will probably be base displacements, which suck, but I doubt anyone will be furloughed.

Quoting usflyguy (Reply 7):

But not as senior as sUA!
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caleb1
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RE: Surplus Of SUA Flight Attendants At LAX And SFO

Thu Aug 27, 2015 8:47 pm

Quoting RDH3E (Reply 4):
Was it not changed to "NYC", with the base serving EWR and JFK?

That is a good question. I know that the JFK FAs also fly out of EWR, but I don't have any info regarding the base name change to "NYC." With JFK closing however, changing the name would make sense.
 
Sooner787
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RE: Surplus Of SUA Flight Attendants At LAX And SFO

Thu Aug 27, 2015 8:55 pm

UA and CO merged how many years ago? And they still don't have

their FA's under a single contract? Wow
 
jetblue1965
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RE: Surplus Of SUA Flight Attendants At LAX And SFO

Thu Aug 27, 2015 8:56 pm

Quoting jetblastdubai (Reply 9):

Regardless of where these sUA FA end up, it's going to cause a major inconvenience for them as well as a drop in net-pay. Moving domiciles or commuting with a crash pad will be expensive. Losing Int'l over-ride pay will hurt a little. Getting furloughed and/or being moved to the bottom of the seniority list at sCO will result in a definite hardship.

This might be a move that will really make AFA bite the bullet and come up with some sort of joint agreement so they can finally become one work group. Closing SEA had to be a huge hit to one of sUA's more senior AFA bases. SF and LA can't be far behind in the number and percentage of very senior FAs.

It's definitely time for them to finally have a unified contract ... none of that US-east US-west BS that has plagued PMUS for eons.
 
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LAXintl
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RE: Surplus Of SUA Flight Attendants At LAX And SFO

Thu Aug 27, 2015 9:17 pm

Quoting flyboy80 (Reply 8):
Curious what the break downs are in other bases as well?

Here is a fast summary of what I have.

For reference sCO breaks bases down as domestic/international but for ease I combined them into total population.

sUA - as of June
BOS - 247
DEN - 633
FRA - 262
HKG - 325
HNL - 122
IAD - 1614
IAH - 647
JFK - 753
LAX - 1034
LAS - 157
LHR - 480
ORD - 1907
NRT - 396
SFO - 2159
TTL - 10736

sCO as of July
CLE - 310
DEN - 605
EWR - 3561
GUM - 282 (CMI)
IAD - 526
IAH - 2473
LAX - 1145
ORD - 1130
SFO - 980
TTL - 11012

I don't believe above total reflects those on leave of absence etc.
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UA444
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RE: Surplus Of SUA Flight Attendants At LAX And SFO

Thu Aug 27, 2015 11:56 pm

JFK base has always let them serve JFK, LGA or EWR.
 
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TWA772LR
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RE: Surplus Of SUA Flight Attendants At LAX And SFO

Fri Aug 28, 2015 12:15 am

Maybe this is a ploy to force the FA union to ratify a new contract much faster. But those pw 777s have to go somewhere, the FAs will either have to commute or suck it up and move bases. Maybe more upgauging in EWR will happen in markets that are currently 767s until the 77Ws arrive.

BTW, after the 25th 787 is delivered (UA has 19 total now, and someone in another thread 3 more are on the flight line in PAE, leaving 4 left until the fence can come down. Does anyone know how many are in the FALs?) I know the pilots can jump aircraft from sCO to sUA and vice versa. Does that only apply to the pilots or does it cover both pilots and FAs?
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notdownnlocked
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RE: Surplus Of SUA Flight Attendants At LAX And SFO

Fri Aug 28, 2015 12:30 am

Regardless of where these sUA FA end up, it's going to cause a major inconvenience for them as well as a drop in net-pay. Moving domiciles or commuting with a crash pad will be expensive. Losing Int'l over-ride pay will hurt a little. Getting furloughed and/or being moved to the bottom of the seniority list at sCO will result in a definite hardship.

This might be a move that will really make AFA bite the bullet and come up with some sort of joint agreement so they can finally become one work group. Closing SEA had to be a huge hit to one of sUA's more senior AFA bases. SF and LA can't be far behind in the number and percentage of very senior FAs.


So WHO F'N CARES??? It's part of working at an airline. I'm not a flight attendant and I have to pay a yearly fee to fly on my own airline but at the same time these glorified waitresses can show up in uniform and fly my employer airline for free, same as the pilots of other companies. They will be able to high tail it to wherever they need to be because of their job classification. I have been commuting for 11 years now and I as well as many have learned to suck it up. If they cannot make it to work they can always trade their trips and at the least attempt to go on a trip 2-3 times a month. You won't see me or us crying a river for them. Some are so senior they have to rely on their friend to lift their carry on into the overhead. As long as they can walk they are able to remain employed. Many push and shove even boarding with persons with special needs so they can hog the overhead bins with their 3-5 carry on bags.
 
luv2fly
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RE: Surplus Of SUA Flight Attendants At LAX And SFO

Fri Aug 28, 2015 12:30 am

US and HP still don't have a contract and now they are merging again.
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
travelin man
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RE: Surplus Of SUA Flight Attendants At LAX And SFO

Fri Aug 28, 2015 12:58 am

It's like the Russian nesting doll of airlines...
 
copter808
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RE: Surplus Of SUA Flight Attendants At LAX And SFO

Fri Aug 28, 2015 1:08 am

Quoting luv2fly (Reply 18):
So WHO F'N CARES??? It's part of working at an airline. I'm not a flight attendant and I have to pay a yearly fee to fly on my own airline but at the same time these glorified waitresses can show up in uniform and fly my employer airline for free, same as the pilots of other companies. They will be able to high tail it to wherever they need to be because of their job classification. I have been commuting for 11 years now and I as well as many have learned to suck it up. If they cannot make it to work they can always trade their trips and at the least attempt to go on a trip 2-3 times a month. You won't see me or us crying a river for them. Some are so senior they have to rely on their friend to lift their carry on into the overhead. As long as they can walk they are able to remain employed. Many push and shove even boarding with persons with special needs so they can hog the overhead bins with their 3-5 carry on bags.

A bit bitter are we? How about if we requite YOU to retire at some particular age--say a year or two from now? Even though you might still be qualified and able to perform your job!

Those "glorified waitresses" are there for SAFETY, not for you to gawk at and fulfill your drink requests. True, some of them might be aging a bit, but as long as they can do their job--not APPEAR to do it, but DO it. Hopefully you will never need their services, other than drinks/food.
 
UA444
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RE: Surplus Of SUA Flight Attendants At LAX And SFO

Fri Aug 28, 2015 1:40 am

Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 16):

After the 25th 787, they go to legacy UAL FA's since they were UA orders pre merger.
 
Thomaas
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RE: Surplus Of SUA Flight Attendants At LAX And SFO

Fri Aug 28, 2015 4:02 am

Will the UA deliveries of the 787s have new seat covers ? The CO ones are hideous.
 
United1
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RE: Surplus Of SUA Flight Attendants At LAX And SFO

Fri Aug 28, 2015 4:07 am

Quoting Thomaas (Reply 22):

Will the UA deliveries of the 787s have new seat covers ? The CO ones are hideous.

The last 789 was delivered with the leather UA signature seat covers...they are testing them out before retrofitting them on the entire overseas fleet.
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bourbon
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RE: Surplus Of SUA Flight Attendants At LAX And SFO

Fri Aug 28, 2015 5:07 am

Quoting Thomaas (Reply 22):

They really are awful.
 
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jetblastdubai
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RE: Surplus Of SUA Flight Attendants At LAX And SFO

Fri Aug 28, 2015 12:19 pm

Quoting notdownnlocked (Reply 17):
So WHO F'N CARES??? It's part of working at an airline
Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 10):
But not as senior as sUA!

This move by UA puts a stake directly into AFA's most senior members. Every previous aircraft adjustment by UA at LAX mostly affected the more junior AFA members and left the ultra-senior ones unscathed. When SYD and NRT were downgraded from 744s to 777, sUA AFA lost a few flying positions but it didn't hurt the top members. By completely removing sUA planes from the LAX Int'l schedule, these senior sUA FAs lose all their Int'l widebody flying lines. They will either need to transfer domiciles or start flying domestic trips.

If they choose to transfer, they will potentially displace senior FAs at other domiciles. Imagine the bad blood if an ex-LAX FA with 40 years seniority bumps an ORD FA with 39 years seniority. It used to be sUA AFA against sCO AFA but now it's going to be sUA against sUA. AFA, like the IAM, looked the other way or did very little when the low-seniority or 'non-hub' employees were getting furloughed or outsourced. Now that the senior AFA ones are feeling the pinch, it might finally get someone's attention.
 
roseflyer
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RE: Surplus Of SUA Flight Attendants At LAX And SFO

Fri Aug 28, 2015 12:40 pm

Quoting UA444 (Reply 21):
Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 16):

After the 25th 787, they go to legacy UAL FA's since they were UA orders pre merger.

According to United's annual report, they are supposed to get 11 787s in 2015. At the end of 2014, the fleet was 14 airplanes, so that means the 25th airplane should be delivered at the end of the year. If 2016 deliveries are flown by the sUA FAs, then that somewhat reduces the risk of the long haul LAX flying disappearing.
If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
 
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CALTECH
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RE: Surplus Of SUA Flight Attendants At LAX And SFO

Fri Aug 28, 2015 1:33 pm

Type: AFA Article


"Redeployment of Aircraft

Date: August 26, 2015
Type: AFA Article

As the company moves forward with changes to the aircraft schedule that are designed to place the right aircraft in the right markets to accommodate passenger demand, this afternoon the company announced plans for the deployment of wide-body aircraft. These changes will be effective with the Spring/Summer 2016 aircraft schedule and are expected to be loaded into Shares as soon as possible.

787-900 aircraft will be redeployed in markets from Houston (IAH) to AMS, EZE, FRA, GIG, NRT and SCL to markets from Los Angeles to SYD and LHR and San Francisco to TPE, HND and SYD. In addition, for the period from August 1 – October 21, 2016, 787-900 aircraft will be deployed in the market from San Francisco to Seoul (ICN).

As a result of the redeployment of these 787-900 aircraft, pre-merger United 777 aircraft currently flying the LAX & SFO segments will be redeployed to EWR, IAD, and ORD. In addition, pre-merger CAL 777 aircraft and pre-merger United 767-300 aircraft will be redeployed to IAH.

There will be no reduction in the number of aircraft flown by Flight Attendants at either subsidiary. However, there is a possibility that the redeployment of aircraft will have an impact of staffing levels at bases for both pre-merger subsidiaries. Management has told us they will be working to develop additional information in the coming weeks and expect a final network plan by the end of October and has made a commitment to share this information as soon as it becomes available. "


Type: AFA Article

"AFA Files for Federal Mediation

Date: 8/20/2015

Today AFA filed for federal mediation under the jurisdiction of the National Mediation Board in order to bring three years of negotiations to a close and allow United to complete its merger with Continental/Continental Micronesia. Once the case is docketed, the National Mediation Board will contact the parties regarding negotiation dates next steps. Please see the AFA media release regarding the filing for mediation.

AFA Director of Collective Bargaining Joe Burns today sent a letter to United VP of Human Resources Jeff Wall refuting the Company’s baseless allegations that AFA violated the Negotiations Protocol Agreement. As the letter indicates, the Company’s assertions are without merit. AFA believes we should be spending time discussing the substance of the issues separating the parties rather than these procedural debates.

“A clear dispute exists and it is time for federal mediation. We are calling on management to negotiate a fair contract within the reality of record profits. Three years after the talks for a joint contract began, management doesn’t seemed focused on negotiating a contract Flight Attendants can ratify,” said AFA International President Sara Nelson. “The longterm success of United Airlines depends upon current executives finishing this merger, which includes negotiating a joint Flight Attendant contract, and making good on promises to employees, Capitol Hill and the traveling public.”

We will need ever increasing pressure on the Company to do the right thing and settle this agreement. So wear your red AFA pin (new shipments of pins are arriving at each local around the system as the pins roll off the production line) to support your Joint Negotiations Committee"
You are here.
 
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CALTECH
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RE: Surplus Of SUA Flight Attendants At LAX And SFO

Fri Aug 28, 2015 1:43 pm

"787-9 flying shifts to West Coast
August 26, 2015

On Wednesday United announced route changes for certain widebody aircraft, effective with the spring/summer 2016 schedule. These changes will help United further optimize our network by matching the right equipment to the right markets.

United will redeploy it's Boeing 787-9 aircraft from IAH to the West Coast hubs, LAX and SFO. When United has completed this redeployment, United will be flying the 787-9 on routes between SFO and SYD (Sydney), TPE (Taipei, Taiwan) and HND (Tokyo Haneda) and between LAX and MEL (Melbourne, Australia), NRT, PVG (Shanghai), SYD and LHR (London Heathrow). In addition, United will fly SFO-ICN (Seoul, South Korea) with a 787-9 between Aug. 1 and Oct. 21, 2016. The IAH routes that United previously flew with the 787-9 will be re-fleeted predominantly with 767s and 777s, and the 777s displaced from LAX and SFO will be re-assigned primarily to EWR, ORD and IAD.

"One of our greatest assets at United is our powerful, comprehensive network, so we continually review our plans to make sure we’re listening to customers and matching the right aircraft with the right market," said United's Network VP. "The 787-9 is a very fuel-efficient aircraft that is designed to perform most efficiently on long-haul routes, like our trans-Pacific flights."

United's overall amount of flying will remain consistent at each hub, as United plans to continue serving the same routes with the same number of flights per day.

United expects that this shift in flying is likely to impact subsidiary CO and subsidiary UA staffing levels at several of our flight attendant bases. United hopes to have more details in the coming weeks and a final network plan by the end of October. In addition, United expects to see a modest impact on staffing levels at United pilot bases. The company will share more information for pilots and flight attendants as soon as it becomes available."
You are here.
 
EWRCabincrew
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RE: Surplus Of SUA Flight Attendants At LAX And SFO

Fri Aug 28, 2015 4:57 pm

Quoting notdownnlocked (Reply 17):
So WHO F'N CARES???

You seem to.

Quoting notdownnlocked (Reply 17):
It's part of working at an airline

Hit the nail on the head...the only concrete in this industry is the tarmac.

Quoting notdownnlocked (Reply 17):
these glorified waitresses

Wow. Really? Ill remember that when serving you and expecting professional service, which I might add, you will receive regardless of the fare you paid. Welcome on board.

Quoting notdownnlocked (Reply 17):
I have been commuting for 11 years now

Bully for you. Commuted for 25, shortest was PHX-IAH; longest SYD-EWR, never once did I complain. Part of working for an airline.

As for the subject matter, bases open, bases close. It is what it is. You transfer, you commute, you move, you do what you need to do for yourself to maintain the level and quality of life to which you are accustomed. Ive gone through numerous base closures, you deal with it and move on. There is no loss of net pay. You need money? Pick up a trip. Done.

SEA closed, JFK...there will be others and others will open. Its the nature of the beast that is the airline industry. We know what we get into when we get hired.

It will all work out when the new planes come and flying is, again, shifted and people moved around.
You can't cure stupid
 
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lightsaber
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RE: Surplus Of SUA Flight Attendants At LAX And SFO

Fri Aug 28, 2015 5:16 pm

By seniority is unfair to sCO FAs.
sUA FAs wouldn't accept anything else and stonewalled.

Quoting CALTECH (Reply 27):

Finally arbitration! This will set the stage for HP/US/AA and all future mergers. If by seniority, you will never see another small airline merge with an older large airline without a union veto at the small airline. This is going to determine the fate of the US3 if they ever go into bankruptcy again. A poor decision will force liquidation next bankruptcy. This will be one of the more important labor decisions in twenty years.

It will also impact the viability of an AS/DL merger...   

Lightsaber
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Thomaas
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RE: Surplus Of SUA Flight Attendants At LAX And SFO

Fri Aug 28, 2015 6:37 pm

Quoting United1 (Reply 23):

Quoting Thomaas (Reply 22):

Will the UA deliveries of the 787s have new seat covers ? The CO ones are hideous.

The last 789 was delivered with the leather UA signature seat covers...they are testing them out before retrofitting them on the entire overseas fleet.

Any pictures ?
 
ordbosewr
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RE: Surplus Of SUA Flight Attendants At LAX And SFO

Fri Aug 28, 2015 6:53 pm

Quoting CALTECH (Reply 27):
Type: AFA Article

Sorry, but you have to love that union can't even get the plane type correct. it is the 787-9 not 900. I mean someone should have spell checked this as it is an official release from the union.
 
global1
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RE: Surplus Of SUA Flight Attendants At LAX And SFO

Fri Aug 28, 2015 7:57 pm

If NW/DL had gone the AFA route, I think it's highly likely that we would still be two separate work groups. So glad we didn't..
 
coolian2
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RE: Surplus Of SUA Flight Attendants At LAX And SFO

Fri Aug 28, 2015 8:01 pm

Quoting notdownnlocked (Reply 17):

Kudos to you, for an astounding lack of professional respect.
Q300/ATR72-600/737-200/-300/-400/-700/-800/A320/767-200/-300/757-200/777-300ER/
747-200/-300/-400/ER/A340-300/A380-800/MD-83/-88/CRJ-700/-900
 
HALFA
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RE: Surplus Of SUA Flight Attendants At LAX And SFO

Sat Aug 29, 2015 12:15 am

Can someone please tell me what the "s" in sUA and sCO stands for?

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Hawaiian Airlines Since 1929...........
 
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LAXintl
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RE: Surplus Of SUA Flight Attendants At LAX And SFO

Sat Aug 29, 2015 12:23 am

s = subsidiary

sCO = subsidiary Continental Airlines
sUA = subsidiary United
sCMI = subsidiary Continental Micronesia
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aloha73g
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RE: Surplus Of SUA Flight Attendants At LAX And SFO

Sat Aug 29, 2015 12:28 am

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 37):
s = subsidiary

I'm amused that each of the 3 mergers used a different abbreviations for subsidiaries.

PM for "Pre-Merger" in the DL/NW merger....PMDL & PMNW

L for "Legacy" in the AA/US merger...LAA & LUS

personally I liked PMDL & PMNW, and I think the abbreviations have gone downhill since.

-Aloha!
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airportugal310
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RE: Surplus Of SUA Flight Attendants At LAX And SFO

Sat Aug 29, 2015 12:45 am

Quoting HALFA (Reply 36):
Can someone please tell me what the "s" in sUA and sCO stands for?

It's made up stuff by people on a.net is what it is...no one in United HQ knows what the hell that stands for
“They bought their tickets, they knew what they were getting into. I say, let 'em crash.”
 
UA444
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RE: Surplus Of SUA Flight Attendants At LAX And SFO

Sat Aug 29, 2015 1:26 am

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 26):

25th 787 should be November so not much more to go. The 773s I believe were converted from the Tilton 787 order so those will also go to PMUA if there's no contract then.
 
UA444
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RE: Surplus Of SUA Flight Attendants At LAX And SFO

Sat Aug 29, 2015 1:27 am

Quoting ordbosewr (Reply 33):

Not a huge deal and a force of habit.
 
gen2stew
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RE: Surplus Of SUA Flight Attendants At LAX And SFO

Sat Aug 29, 2015 1:54 am

"So WHO F'N CARES??? It's part of working at an airline. I'm not a flight attendant and I have to pay a yearly fee to fly on my own airline but at the same time these glorified waitresses can show up in uniform and fly my employer airline for free, same as the pilots of other companies. They will be able to high tail it to wherever they need to be because of their job classification. I have been commuting for 11 years now and I as well as many have learned to suck it up. If they cannot make it to work they can always trade their trips and at the least attempt to go on a trip 2-3 times a month. You won't see me or us crying a river for them. Some are so senior they have to rely on their friend to lift their carry on into the overhead. As long as they can walk they are able to remain employed. Many push and shove even boarding with persons with special needs so they can hog the overhead bins with their 3-5 carry on bags. "

Really?! What a flawed and narrow view of the profession! SHAME ON YOU for such a thoughtless and downright demeaning assessment of flight attendants! Your statement is flawed by the following: These crew members base is closing/shrinking they are not choosing to commute, where as YOU are. These "glorified waitresses" are either using a reciprocal cabin seat agreement which your superiors in management and the unions worked very hard to get for their crew members, and if they are not employed at your airline (DL I assume) then they are at the BOTTOM of the stand-by list. If they do work for the same carrier as you, then they are able to take a jumpseat, again taking nothing from you.The reason many of us "glorified waitresses" carry so many bags is because the commute has become so challenging we choose to "suck it up" and do several trips back to back to reduce the times we commute.

The attitude you have displayed is similar to the one you loath from the "glorified waitresses".

It is my sincere hope sir or ma'am that you are never in need of the training we receive, for if you were, you'd most likely choke on your pride. By the way, we are trained for that as well.
I don't know why blessings wear disguises. If I were a blessing, I'd run around nude!
 
HALFA
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RE: Surplus Of SUA Flight Attendants At LAX And SFO

Sat Aug 29, 2015 2:29 am

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 30):
By seniority is unfair to sCO FAs.
sUA FAs wouldn't accept anything else and stonewalled.

What could be fairer than to merge the two seniority lists by date of hire? I can't think of anything more fair than this.
What would be unfair is what AA did to the TWA flight attendants, placing all of them to the bottom of the list.

Quoting aloha73g (Reply 38):

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 37):
s = subsidiary

I'm amused that each of the 3 mergers used a different abbreviations for subsidiaries.

PM for "Pre-Merger" in the DL/NW merger....PMDL & PMNW

L for "Legacy" in the AA/US merger...LAA & LUS

personally I liked PMDL & PMNW, and I think the abbreviations have gone downhill since.

-Aloha!

I thought the same thing!

Quoting airportugal310 (Reply 39):
It's made up stuff by people on a.net is what it is...no one in United HQ knows what the hell that stands for

  

Aloha,
HALFA
Hawaiian Airlines Since 1929...........
 
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LAXintl
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RE: Surplus Of SUA Flight Attendants At LAX And SFO

Sat Aug 29, 2015 2:59 am

Quoting HALFA (Reply 43):
What could be fairer than to merge the two seniority lists by date of hire? I can't think of anything more fair than this.

DOH might sound fair, but it can certainly not be when you don't have like companies.

Some companies might be stagnant with little growth hence little hiring and stuck with a senior labor force, while other might be doing otherwise with a growing and young workforce.

In my experience across many industry sectors, the most "fair" thing is a blended list, one where people stay at their relative equivalent seniority under a merged list.
If you are in the top 10% at your current employer, you likewise remain in top 10% percent in the merged list. Depending on size of the companies involved one derives a ratio and blends the list based on that mathematical ratio. End result is that each employee maintains their relative standing on the new combined list and can enjoy similar seniority prospects going forward as they enjoyed previous to the merger.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
B737900ER
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RE: Surplus Of SUA Flight Attendants At LAX And SFO

Sun Aug 30, 2015 1:35 am

Quoting HALFA (Reply 42):

With the seniority disparities between UA and CO this is what will essentially happen both with FAs and mechanics. You will probably see 40% or more CO put under the junior man at UA. If a layoff happens after the list is combined it's bye bye ex cons. Not fair, but the unions have to go DOH or risk a revolt. It's business.
 
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lightsaber
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RE: Surplus Of SUA Flight Attendants At LAX And SFO

Sun Aug 30, 2015 4:47 am

Quoting HALFA (Reply 42):
What could be fairer than to merge the two seniority lists by date of hire? I can't think of anything more fair than this.

Why are you throwing away relative seniority? A sCO mid-seniority F/A will suddenly become much less senior. How is it fair for one airline's F/As to be at the top of the list just because the company stagnated and stopped hiring? Suddenly finding F/As are at lower seniority and subject to bumping? I'm not suggesting a TWA staple at the bottom, but for a younger airline, it means their staff will suddenly be pushed down for no other reason than the airline acquired was around longer.

Let's put it another way, this means a younger airline's employees must do everything to stop a merger.
Take B6, a very young airline. If they were to merge with a large airline, their staff's relative seniority would be nothing. In fact, their seniority would be so disrupted, it would be unwise not to participate in strong action to disrupt a merger.

It isn't fair to place one whole group below another. It wasn't fair at TWA, it wouldn't be fair to sCO flight attendants. There needs to be a middle ground.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 43):
Some companies might be stagnant with little growth hence little hiring and stuck with a senior labor force, while other might be doing otherwise with a growing and young workforce.

In effect, you are rewarding the worse run airline who stopped growing. That means the less effective process dominates the newly merged airline. Not a good situation...

Quoting B737900ER (Reply 44):
With the seniority disparities between UA and CO this is what will essentially happen both with FAs and mechanics. You will probably see 40% or more CO put under the junior man at UA. If a layoff happens after the list is combined it's bye bye ex cons. Not fair, but the unions have to go DOH or risk a revolt. It's business.

The sCO unions in no way have to accept DOH. There are alternatives such as blending. e.g., top 1% seniority remain top 1%, top 10% remain top 10%. DOH is only fair with airlines of similar age and similar growth patterns.

In effect, DOH prevents the processes from the better run airline from propagating into the stagnant airline. It dooms the merged company. I understand why senior employees feel that is the only fair method. But the reality is that it is a really bad long term business decision.

There are better options. DOH might be the decision. So sCO employees will effectively be stapled at the bottom thanks to the long stagnation at sUA. So they will get bumped and have to commute...

This is afa's proposal.
http://www.calafa.org/mec/afa-seniority-integration-at-united-airlines

DOH forces the younger airline staff to revolt...

Lightsaber
6 months without TV. The best decision of my life.
 
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RE: Surplus Of SUA Flight Attendants At LAX And SFO

Sun Aug 30, 2015 6:47 am

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 45):

The sCO unions in no way have to accept DOH. There are alternatives such as blending. e.g., top 1% seniority remain top 1%, top 10% remain top 10%. DOH is only fair with airlines of similar age and similar growth patterns.

The IBT has already selected DOH for the combined list for the mechanics. They are more afraid of being voted out than what's fair for the membership. Such is business
 
HALFA
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RE: Surplus Of SUA Flight Attendants At LAX And SFO

Sun Aug 30, 2015 8:24 am

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 45):
A sCO mid-seniority F/A will suddenly become much less senior. How is it fair for one airline's F/As to be at the top of the list just because the company stagnated and stopped hiring?

Seniority is everything at an airline. If you are referring to UA in this scenario, what makes you think that UA stopped hiring? There are FA's at both carriers with 3, 5, 10, 20, 30 and 40+ years. How would it be fair to have a 30 year CO FA placed ahead of a 40 year UA FA on the new seniority list?

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 45):
Take B6, a very young airline. If they were to merge with a large airline, their staff's relative seniority would be nothing. In fact, their seniority would be so disrupted, it would be unwise not to participate in strong action to disrupt a merger.

You cannot compare B6 to the UA-CO merger. Both UA and CO have been around for years and both have very senior FA's.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 45):
It isn't fair to place one whole group below another. It wasn't fair at TWA, it wouldn't be fair to sCO flight attendants

I know several very senior CO FA's. There are several with more than 40+ years. The whole group of CO FA's will not be placed below the UA FA's using AFA's proposal.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 45):
I understand why senior employees feel that is the only fair method. But the reality is that it is a really bad long term business decision.

You haven't provided any evidence to support this theory.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 45):
DOH might be the decision. So sCO employees will effectively be stapled at the bottom thanks to the long stagnation at sUA. So they will get bumped and have to commute...

Again, there are several very senior CO FA's. They will not be stapled at the bottom. I have flown several flights lately with former "CO" crews that were extremely senior. Their seniority will merge well with the UA FA's.
Why take it out on the UA FA's for their companies supposed "stagnation". They shouldn't be punished by losing seniority due to decisions beyond their control. In your proposal, it very well could be UA FA's that would be bumped and have to commute. How is that fair?

When all is said and done, I don't see a mass exodus of UA FA's leaving their bases on the West Coast to bump junior CO FA's out of IAH and EWR.

I have 30 years at HA. I am sitting well on our seniority list in the top 12%, but I have long excepted the fact that I work in a very volatile industry and if HA is ever bought or merged by one of the big 3, I would take a big hit to my seniority number but in my opinion, it wouldn't be fair for me to be placed ahead of another FA on a merged seniority list, if the other FA had more tenure than I.

I respect your opinion, I just don't agree with it.

Aloha,
HALFA
Hawaiian Airlines Since 1929...........
 
Freshside3
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RE: Surplus Of SUA Flight Attendants At LAX And SFO

Sun Aug 30, 2015 10:52 am

Quoting HALFA (Reply 47):
In your proposal, it very well could be UA FA's that would be bumped and have to commute. How is that fair?

Many were already bumped once due to the closure of the SEA base.
 
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RyanairGuru
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RE: Surplus Of SUA Flight Attendants At LAX And SFO

Sun Aug 30, 2015 11:20 am

If you were to look at numbers of new hires since 2000-2015 sCO would probably outnumber sUA by 100:1. If you look at 1990-2015 again far, far more people would have been hired on the sCO side. Realistically you need to go back 20 or more years before you get a proper mixing of seniority between the subsidiaries.

The blended approach was used at AA whereas DL was DOH. Lightsaber and LAXintl are correct, for the sake of the Continental flight attendants you better hope it is a blend. Anything else will be dreadfully inequitable. There is no excuse, none whatsoever, for putting a flight attendant with middle seniority in the bottom quarter, and all because CO have grown over the period 1995-2015 whereas UA shrank.
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