ORD And Hawaii

azjubilee · Thu Sep 03, 2015 8:27 pm

What a great documentary! What's amazing is that the struggles and successes of the past are still apparent today. They just take on different forms and personalities. As far as their Royal Hawaiian Service, looks like only Hawaiian comes close to providing the kind of onboard service people enjoyed in the past.

Viscount724 · Fri Sep 04, 2015 1:59 am

Quoting afcjets (Reply 49):
Quoting caleb1 (Reply 5):
I can only imagine the type of inflight service passengers must have received on that DC-8 compared to what we have now.

Quoting ER757 (Reply 21):
Quoting exFWAOONW (Reply 18):I remember during the 70s and 80s UA ran a 747 classic ORD-HNL
Yep - was UA flight #1

Here is the Royal Hawaiian Service on flight 1 in the late 1970s on the 747. The link should start at the exact start of the service but the whole documentary is great when you have the time. It shows both First Class and Coach, tons of food was served.

https://youtu.be/v5_VZL5Obc4?t=38m46s

Delete the S in https to make links clickable.
http://youtu.be/v5_VZL5Obc4?t=38m46s

nomorerjs · Fri Sep 04, 2015 2:06 am

AA will not re-start ORD-HNL/OGG anytime soon. They don't give a shit about ORD and the local FF base. They can run them through DFW, LAX, or PHX (while PHX is a hub). AA doesn't even fly the 321 at ORD (Legacy AA), why would they add HNL when they are flying jungle jets to IAH, ATL, DTW, etc? AA is fortunate that UA is pathetic and not taking advantage of UAs problems.

us330 · Fri Sep 04, 2015 12:43 pm

Quoting cathay747 (Reply 48):
They really don'tneed it now, and then they don't have to pull another 763 off of what wouldI'm sure be a more profitable market in terms of the front cabin.

I bet they'll run it in the wintertime during peak season for Hawaii by pulling an aircraft off of a seasonal European route.

cathay747 · Fri Sep 04, 2015 1:59 pm

Quoting us330 (Reply 53):
I bet they'll run it in the wintertime during peak season for Hawaii by pulling an aircraft off of a seasonal European route.

Possible, I suppose, but I wouldn't hold my breath.

ckfred · Fri Sep 04, 2015 3:08 pm

Quoting nomorerjs (Reply 52):
AA will not re-start ORD-HNL/OGG anytime soon. They don't give a shit about ORD and the local FF base. They can run them through DFW, LAX, or PHX (while PHX is a hub). AA doesn't even fly the 321 at ORD (Legacy AA), why would they add HNL when they are flying jungle jets to IAH, ATL, DTW, etc? AA is fortunate that UA is pathetic and not taking advantage of UAs problems

AA does care about ORD. When Parker & Co. were courting the unions to get their backing for the merger, Parker harped about how AA management had let the Chicago market and the upper Midwest slip away to UA and WN.

The sorry state of ORD didn't happen overnight, and it won't get fixed overnight.

Let's remember that business in Illinois stinks, when compared to the rest of the country. Unemployment is high, and the state's finances are a mess. Why put A321s into ORD, if you have to discount the seats to fill the planes?

People in DFW could argue that AA isn't showing any love by assigning most of the Embrear 175s to ORD, while DFW is getting the CRJ-700s and CRJ-900s. Having flown on the 175 and the -700, the 175 is clearly the superior airplane.

Not that this is truly significant, but you notice that the only domestic route that has seen the 788 is DFW-ORD. AA could have easily put the 788 on DFW-LAX, DFW-MIA, DFW-PHL, or DFW-JFK.

By the way, did you notice my thread starter about ORD returning MD-80s to ORD-IAH?

CHI787ORD · Fri Sep 04, 2015 4:00 pm

Quoting ckfred (Reply 55):
AA does care about ORD. When Parker & Co. were courting the unions to get their backing for the merger, Parker harped about how AA management had let the Chicago market and the upper Midwest slip away to UA and WN.

I've heard this story 15 times on A.Net but AA has not given any actual signal whatsoever that they intend to invest and grow in ORD. if anything its been the opposite post merger. Actions speak louder than words.

Quoting ckfred (Reply 55):
Let's remember that business in Illinois stinks, when compared to the rest of the country. Unemployment is high, and the state's finances are a mess. Why put A321s into ORD, if you have to discount the seats to fill the planes?

I agree with you on State finances being a mess and the state economy as a whole growing slower than neighboring regions, but business in the city of Chicago, especially corporate businesses and startups, seems to have been doing well the past 3-4 years. The narrative seems to be that the City core is doing well and booming, and the suburbs are stagnating.

ripcordd · Fri Sep 04, 2015 4:33 pm

The prob with ORD is that it is so expensive to operate in Rahm should be listening which is a huge reason before and during BK AA shrunk ORD from a major connecting airport to majority O/D flights. DFW had on peak days 5 767's flights to Hawaii while ORD had none when the trip itself costs almost the same to run crew/hotel/fuel but the costs to operate the ORD fees must be that high it makes that flight unprofitable but profitable from DFW? That is the only reason why I can think of HNL is not brought back to ORD at least seasonally.

brilondon · Fri Sep 04, 2015 4:42 pm

I thought AA briefly did this year although it may have been last year. Personally I welcome stopping on such long flights to get out and stretch the legs and get the blood moving. I also prefer to have a bite at a restaurant in the airport as the choices are greater.

jetblastdubai · Fri Sep 04, 2015 6:34 pm

Quoting CHI787ORD (Reply 56):
The narrative seems to be that the City core is doing well and booming, and the suburbs are stagnating.

Actually, it's just the opposite.

http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2015/09/...-calm-final-budget-forum/#comments

"Earlier in the day, the mayor defended his push for a major property tax hike, acknowledging it would be a tough pill to swallow for taxpayers, but saying it’s necessary to shore up police and firefighter pension funds, restore the city’s worst-in-the-nation bond rating, and solve the city’s long-standing financial crisis."

cathay747 · Fri Sep 04, 2015 9:27 pm

By the way, if you go to this page on departedflights.com...

http://www.departedflights.com/HNL74p1.html

...you can see that back in April of 74, NW had a Sat.-only
nonstop ORD-HNL...I never knew this!

Now the confusing thing is that when you go to this other
page showing flights FROM HNL TO ORD, the NW flight
shows daily! ... http://www.departedflights.com/ORD74p4.html

I can't figure this one out! Anybody know the story here?

strfyr51 · Fri Sep 04, 2015 9:39 pm

Quoting UA444 (Reply 7):
Not very likely, imho. For AA it would tie up a 763 or 772 that can be used elsewhere. UA has the perfect plane in the 772A and is long established.

American HAS B772A's also don't they? I think it just a matter of American Not wanting to fight it out for dominance on a route long established by another carrier.
It makes perfect sense businesswise they have other "fish to fry".

Polot · Fri Sep 04, 2015 9:47 pm

Quoting strfyr51 (Reply 61):
American HAS B772A's also don't they? I think it just a matter of American Not wanting to fight it out for dominance on a route long established by another carrier.

No, AA has only has 772ERs and 77Ws.

jfk777 · Fri Sep 04, 2015 10:50 pm

Quoting ckfred (Reply 55):
Not that this is truly significant, but you notice that the only domestic route that has seen the 788 is DFW-ORD. AA could have easily put the 788 on DFW-LAX, DFW-MIA, DFW-PHL, or DFW-JFK.

AA has no permanent plans to fly 787 domestically, the DFW to ORD is just to get employees use to the plane. AA flies it from ORD to NRT. They fly or will soon fro LAX to Shanghai and NRT. DFW to Peking and Buenos Aires. The 787 is a long and longer haul plane and that is what AA is using it for.

For LAX to DFW to ORD, MIA or PHL an A321 is the best plane move lots of people.

N1120A · Fri Sep 04, 2015 11:21 pm

Quoting strfyr51 (Reply 61):
American HAS B772A's also don't they?

No. United is the only US carrier that has operated 772As.

Viscount724 · Sat Sep 05, 2015 12:06 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 64):
Quoting strfyr51 (Reply 61):
American HAS B772A's also don't they?

No. United is the only US carrier that has operated 772As.

All original customers for the 772A per Boeing orders/deliveries. Number of aircraft in parentheses:

Air China (10)
ANA (16)
British Airways (5)
Cathay Pacific (5)
China Southern (4)
Emirates (3)
JAL (15)
Thai (8)
United (22)

superjeff · Sat Sep 05, 2015 12:20 am

Quoting caleb1 (Reply 5):

Quoting us330 (Reply 14):

Quoting cathay747 (Reply 60):

By the way, if you go to this page on departedflights.com...

http://www.departedflights.com/HNL74p1.html

...you can see that back in April of 74, NW had a Sat.-only
nonstop ORD-HNL...I never knew this!

Now the confusing thing is that when you go to this other
page showing flights FROM HNL TO ORD, the NW flight
shows daily! ... http://www.departedflights.com/ORD74....html

I actually flew it from HNL to ORD on my way back to college on the mainland in August, 1970. As part of the Transpacific Route case decided in 1969, Northwest and United were awarded ORD-HNL (Northwest had a major operation in Chicago back then), BN got ATL/STL/HOU/DAL-HNL, and CO and WA got West Coast - Hawaii authority. The Northwest flight I was on was a pretty empty, all Coach, 707-320B, but the inflight service was very nice, with meals served in courses. That flight competed with a United DC8-62 on the route, and the UA airplane was configured 2-3 in Coach, which made it extremely comfortable (they also used that configuration on the HNL-JFK-HNL route.

uberflieger · Sat Sep 05, 2015 12:28 am

Quoting CHI787ORD (Reply 56):
AA has not given any actual signal whatsoever that they intend to invest and grow in ORD

The strongest signal yet? The 'boys from Tempe' outspent United for the Cubs marketing partnership and Fern Fernandez, VP Global Marketing, called Chicago American's hometown

Here are some actual YOY stats, thanks to fellow A.nut RDH3E, comparing United & American's ORD operation:
2015 YOY US4 Hub Capacity (by RDH3E Aug 31 2015 in Civil Aviation)
AA..ORD…..454...-4.1%…44,432….1.4% // UA..ORD…..551...-6.9%….53,126….1.0%

UA has been shrinking departures by 2.8% more, than American, which is totally at its MAX since re-banking the hub. Parker has lamented in several interviews having to give up the 2 US ORD gates and stated they will seize any opportunity to add gates / flights.

ORD-HNL? ORD-OGG? Very likely, IMHO.

ripcordd · Sat Sep 05, 2015 3:20 am

787 no longer flys dfw-ord for employee familiarization 787 flys dfw-ord-nrt-ord-dfw now ....Until ORD gets more 787 cities there will be a domestic 787 btwn ord-dfw.

mattnrsa · Sat Sep 05, 2015 3:52 am

Quoting uberflieger (Reply 67):
UA has been shrinking departures by 2.8% more, than American

But it looks like seats are going up even as departures go down, a trend we see from DL/UA/AA at most hubs as more 50-seaters as retired in favor of larger, more comfortable planes. Something customers have been asking for over the last few years.

Even though the percentage of added seats is .4% more for AA, that is a smaller number than 2.8%, and given that UA is starting from a significantly higher base, the actual number of seats added is almost the same.

afcjets · Sat Sep 05, 2015 3:56 am

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 63):
For LAX to DFW to ORD, MIA or PHL an A321 is the best plane move lots of people.

While that may be the current conventional wisdom and perhaps best option based on their current fleet/configuration mix I disagree. The best type of plane to move lots of people around between two large cities and/or hubs would be a ten abreast nonER 777 or Airbus equivalent with two classes where First has standard domestic F seats, sort of what UA is doing to some of their 777s now.

[Edited 2015-09-04 21:01:52]

uberflieger · Sat Sep 05, 2015 10:22 am

quote=afcjets,reply=70]The best type of plane to move lots of people around between two large cities and/or hubs would be a ten abreast nonER 777[/quote]

Parker disagrees: 'It is cheaper to run 2 narrow bodies', his response to reporters, whether American was going to copy United.

[Edited 2015-09-05 03:27:10]

jetblue1965 · Sat Sep 05, 2015 10:52 am

Quoting uberflieger (Reply 71):

Parker is right in the sense that the 2xNB trip costs are lower because it doesn't need to carry so much extra metal. UA's conversion plans stem from a dire need to raise domestic mainline capacity rapidly, not as a cost improvement measure. It's a small price to pay if it means dumping those 50-seaters ASAP

But as an aviation enthusiast, it's a lot more fun boarding a WB than yet another 737/320 that a dime two dozens

jetblastdubai · Sat Sep 05, 2015 11:41 am

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 72):
UA's conversion plans stem from a dire need to raise domestic mainline capacity rapidly, not as a cost improvement measure.

It might also have something to do with limited airport facilities or airspace restrictions. EWR, ORD and SFO all have gate or airspace capacity issues and replacing a small plane with a much larger plane will help optimize capacity.

The bulk of United's operation is exposed to more congested airports than AA's and their on-time performance reflects that to some degree. It is far more important for UA to optimize seat capacity per flight with hubs at EWR, SFO and ORD than it is for AA to do it at DFW, CLT and MIA.

jetblue1965 · Sat Sep 05, 2015 11:47 am

Quoting jetblastdubai (Reply 73):

I don't recall the plan calls for them touching EWR at all. I'm guessing the mid con hubs plus SFO (and maybe LAX).

I'm not sure if SFO's fog issues will be solved by larger equipment. The moment they reduce, others will just increase, and the congestion is back to square one.

But I fully agree on their utility on something like ORD

uberflieger · Sat Sep 05, 2015 12:06 pm

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 72):
as an aviation enthusiast, it's a lot more fun boarding a WB

Also, high frequency is invaluable to attract last minute, full fare, frequent fliers and keep their loyalty. Without them, none of the legacies would be able to compete with LCCs, and should UA reduce its schedule between eg SFO & ORD, in favor of larger equipment, it also risks losing customers to AA.

If we apply Parker's narrowbody preference to ORD-HNL, one could argue its never gonna happen, because it's cheaper to route Chicagoans through LAX/PHX. That thinking though leaves out 2 key aspects.
- American's stated intention to become Chicago's preferred carrier
- American's need to boost ORD feed
The 763 in its current configuration is too premium heavy for even DFW-HNL/OGG. LUS A330 though fits the bill.

brilondon · Sat Sep 05, 2015 12:19 pm

Quoting uberflieger (Reply 67):
ORD-HNL? ORD-OGG? Very likely, IMHO.

I don't see them starting anytime soon on such a long, low yielding route. The vast majority of people flying to Hawaii are on vacation and most of the premium passengers are upgrades using FF miles.

uberflieger · Sat Sep 05, 2015 1:39 pm

Quoting brilondon (Reply 76):
long, low yielding route

I sampled airfares ORD-HNL/OGG and from Midwest / East Coast cities in January. Ticket prices are in line with flights to Europe, similar stage length, significantly more expensive to operate and capacity out-stripping demand.

In the early 2000s, at the height of American's ORD hub, AA briefly even ran 2 dailies HNL/OGG, but the gradual down-gauging from S80s & Fokkers to 30-50 seat RJs, and the introduction of the 'rolling hub' concept caused feed for Hawaii and other longhaul flights to dry up. ORD became a money loser and shrank.

The story couldn't be any more different today. With additional flights by LUS, passenger numbers jumped in 2013 and keep growing (1.4% 2014). Re-banking, up-gauging to E175, resuming flights to cities that lost AA ORD service, and last but least the A330, which is the right equipment / cabin configuration for Hawaii. Mark my words

[Edited 2015-09-05 06:43:45]

afcjets · Sat Sep 05, 2015 2:46 pm

Quoting uberflieger (Reply 71):
Parker disagrees: 'It is cheaper to run 2 narrow bodies', his response to reporters, whether American was going to copy United.

I am aware of Parker's claim but he may be referring to opportunity cost and/or cabin configuration since all of their widebodies have lie flat seating. Also, the FAA will not allow 7 across narrowbody seating configuration since no seat can be more than two from an aisle, even if the airlines wanted to shrink seat width under 17 inches, yet they can and are squeezing in an extra seat per row on 777s.

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 72):
Parker is right in the sense that the 2xNB trip costs are lower because it doesn't need to carry so much extra metal.

I do not understand how there no economies of scale with a jumbo in the 21st century like there was in the 20th century, or even worse as Parker claims there is actually now a diseconomy of scale with them. I asked on a.net before the purchase price differential between a widebody and a narrowbody today and no one gave a definitive answer, back in the day it was 15 million vs 50 million. The only way I could see Parker's claim being completely indisputable is if that disparity has increased SIGNIFICANTLY over the previous generation slight over 3x differential. Or are the wingspans on WBs today that much greater than the first generation WBs because of extra range that they are that much heavier compared to TWO NBs, (especially since they are more composite/plastic today than ever) even on a short flight where the fuel tanks remain low. Or is AA paying 777 captains significantly more than double the hourly rate of 737 captains with the same tenure (2 777 pilots vs 4 737 pilots on wingtips)

[Edited 2015-09-05 07:59:10]

jetblastdubai · Sat Sep 05, 2015 4:06 pm

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 74):
I'm not sure if SFO's fog issues will be solved by larger equipment. The moment they reduce, others will just increase, and the congestion is back to square one.

SFO/LAX-HNL is one of the prime markets where subbing a 772 for a pair of 738s would definitely pay off. Currently UA runs +/- 5 trips/day to HNL from both LAX and SFO with a combination of 777s, 738s and 757s. Cut that down to 4 domestic-configured 777s and you've increased total seat capacity while reducing demand on the airports at the same time without severely limiting flight options for pax.

Quoting uberflieger (Reply 75):
Also, high frequency is invaluable to attract last minute, full fare, frequent fliers and keep their loyalty. Without them, none of the legacies would be able to compete with LCCs, and should UA reduce its schedule between eg SFO & ORD, in favor of larger equipment, it also risks losing customers to AA.

Frequency is important up to a certain point. UA runs 12-15 flights per day in the DEN, ORD and EWR to SFO markets. In addition, all the JFK P.S. flights are being moved to EWR and those planes have fewer seats than the current EWR-SFO planes have. Assuming that even if only 1/4 - 1/3 of the JFK pax. move over to EWR, UA is going to be lacking quite a few seats in the NYC-SFO market unless they add a few more frequencies (slots permitting) or sub some larger planes. I doubt that dropping 1 or 2 flights per day in these markets, and running larger planes, will make or break any flyers decision to fly.

FYI: when airports get backed up due to weather, the airlines have the option of negotiating with the FAA when determining what flights take delays and which ones don't. If UA can run a few 772s between these hubs, they have the option of keeping these flights on schedule and sacrificing others...inconveniencing fewer passengers.

timz · Sat Sep 05, 2015 8:22 pm

Quoting cathay747 (Reply 60):
flights FROM HNL TO ORD, the NW flightshows daily! ... http://www.departedflights.com/ORD74....html

The 4/74 ABC Guide shows the NW nonstop as Sat only both ways.

RWA380 · Sun Sep 06, 2015 3:43 am

Quoting jetblastdubai (Reply 24):
LAX-HKG-DEL-LHR-EWR-LAX

Quoting commavia (Reply 27):
In the later 1990s (1999, I believe) when United restarted the "Round the World" service and DEL flights with 744s the routing was via IAD instead of EWR.

And here OI was thinking it was JFK.

Quoting jetblastdubai (Reply 28):
The LHR-EWR/IAD-LAX leg was also on a 767 as well. The -400 only did the LAX-HKG-DEL-LHR portion

For a long time a 763 flew the HKG-DEL-LHR-JFK-LAX legs, while the 744 did the LAX-HKG leg only. It sure changed around over the years, IIRC it was run originally with 744's each going in opposite directions & that they crossed paths in DEL.

timz · Sun Sep 06, 2015 8:15 pm

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 81):
IIRC it was run originally with 744's each going in opposite directions

Thru 744s each way in 2001. The 1996-98 flights never had a thru aircraft.

brilondon · Sat Sep 19, 2015 11:51 am

Quoting uberflieger (Reply 77):
I sampled airfares ORD-HNL/OGG and from Midwest / East Coast cities in January. Ticket prices are in line with flights to Europe, similar stage length, significantly more expensive to operate and capacity out-stripping demand.

In the early 2000s, at the height of American's ORD hub, AA briefly even ran 2 dailies HNL/OGG, but the gradual down-gauging from S80s & Fokkers to 30-50 seat RJs, and the introduction of the 'rolling hub' concept caused feed for Hawaii and other longhaul flights to dry up. ORD became a money loser and shrank.

The story couldn't be any more different today. With additional flights by LUS, passenger numbers jumped in 2013 and keep growing (1.4% 2014). Re-banking, up-gauging to E175, resuming flights to cities that lost AA ORD service, and last but least the A330, which is the right equipment / cabin configuration for Hawaii. Mark my words

It is worse today. There are not the premium travelers to Hawaii as it is not as an exclusive "once in a life time" type of holiday as at one time and we have the U.S. airlines to thank for that.

uberflieger · Sat Sep 19, 2015 12:36 pm

Quoting brilondon (Reply 83):
it is not as an exclusive "once in a life time" type of holiday as at one time

Certainly true, but Hawaii has been experiencing very healthy growth for weddings, which kind of is a 'once in a lifetime' occasion

and where people tend to over spend.
I'm attaching some excellent 2014 visitor stats. http://dbedt.hawaii.gov/visitor/visitor-research/

brilondon · Sat Sep 19, 2015 2:16 pm

I know, I live here. I have seen who comes from the mainland and why. I know that people travel on award tickets so the airlines don't offer premium service to Hawaii but offer a version of Y+.

rta · Sat Sep 19, 2015 4:31 pm

Quoting nomorerjs (Reply 52):
AA will not re-start ORD-HNL/OGG anytime soon. They don't give a shit about ORD and the local FF base. They can run them through DFW, LAX, or PHX (while PHX is a hub). AA doesn't even fly the 321 at ORD (Legacy AA), why would they add HNL when they are flying jungle jets to IAH, ATL, DTW, etc? AA is fortunate that UA is pathetic and not taking advantage of UAs problems.

That is a ridiculous accusation.

What makes you think AA doesn't care about ORD? The fact that they don't have direct flights to Hawaii? I guess they don't care about MIA/JFK/CLT/PHL either. Also, have a look at what UA are flying to DFW, ATL, and DTW (among other destinations). Pretty much the same thing as AA (and actually I'd prefer AA's E170 to UA's CRJ700, which they have a bunch of). By the way, there's no Airbus base at ORD because thats where the last S80 base will be. When those are all gone, expect to see more Airbus planes. And from what I've heard, the A319s that are to replace the S80s are not as comfortable

Edit: I guess they also hated us enough to send the 787 our way before LAX, MIA, JFK, etc...

[Edited 2015-09-19 09:40:06]

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