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falstaff
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ExpressJet Muslim FA Files Suit Over Alcohol

Tue Sep 01, 2015 8:23 pm

/09/01/muslim-civil-liberties-group-files-eeo-complaint-claiming-airline-violated-flight-attendants-constitutional-rights/


Apparently this woman was suspended from her job for not serving alcohol. She tried to work out a deal with other FAs and that apparently didn't work so they put her on leave.

Apparently she became a Muslim after getting the job so this wasn't an issue when she started.

I think she doesn't have anything to complain about because serving drinks is part of her job. If she was a cook at a restaurant could she refuse to cook pork? I have been served alcohol by Muslims before and I most certainly have had pork cooked by Muslims (I saw the cook praying shortly after cooking my meal).


I don't see how serving a person alcohol violates her religious beliefs because she isn't drinking it herself.
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LAXintl
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RE: ExpressJet Muslim FA Files Suit Over Alcohol

Tue Sep 01, 2015 8:38 pm

There is ample legal precedent that companies need to provide "reasonable accommodation" for peoples religious beliefs

From the EEOC website:

Religious Discrimination & Reasonable Accommodation
The law requires an employer or other covered entity to reasonably accommodate an employee's religious beliefs or practices, unless doing so would cause more than a minimal burden on the operations of the employer's business. This means an employer may be required to make reasonable adjustments to the work environment that will allow an employee to practice his or her religion.
Examples of some common religious accommodations include flexible scheduling, voluntary shift substitutions or swaps, job reassignments, and modifications to workplace policies or practices.

the compan

Suppose question is, what accommodation did ExpressJet offer this employee and would it be considered reasonable or would it have created unreasonable burden on the business?

Quoting falstaff (Thread starter):
If she was a cook at a restaurant could she refuse to cook pork?

Actually yes. There was a case a few years of ago of Muslim I believe stock clerk at Target or some other box store refused to touch pork or alcohol products.

Quoting falstaff (Thread starter):
I have been served alcohol by Muslims before and I most certainly have had pork cooked by Muslims

Thats up to them as to how they observe or do not observe their religion.

[Edited 2015-09-01 13:39:10]
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B757capt
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RE: ExpressJet Muslim FA Files Suit Over Alcohol

Tue Sep 01, 2015 8:41 pm

Accommodations? Really?

How about she find a different job that suits her beliefs? Why should everyone else have to be so accommodating?
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ec99
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RE: ExpressJet Muslim FA Files Suit Over Alcohol

Tue Sep 01, 2015 8:44 pm

First @winterlight. Great suggestion. Maybe you could tell that to the Christian clerk in Kentucky who is defying the Supreme Court and refusing to issue gay marriage licenses on the “authority of god”. Muslims do not hold a monopoly on people letting their religion get in the way of their job.

As for this flight attendant, I’m torn. Serving alcohol is part of a flight attendants job and at some point, the impetus is on the person if they need such a significant religious accommodations in a secular society. But how much of a hardship would it be on the airline to have the other flight attendant working the flight serve the few customer who want alcohol. Of course, this accommodation doesn’t work on ExpressJet’s smaller planes that likely go out with only a single FA. It will be interesting to see which way the EEOC rules on this. I ultimately come down on the side of the airline but only because her requested accommodations would make her unable to fly on the CRJ 200, which is her airlines most common plane type.
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lightsaber
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RE: ExpressJet Muslim FA Files Suit Over Alcohol

Tue Sep 01, 2015 8:55 pm

The problem is the basic job definition.

I believe this is the link:
http://www.detroitnews.com/story/new...-muslim-flight-attendant/71490804/

This is like a waitress refusing to serve me bacon at my favorite dinner. I would find a different restaurant to eat at right then and there (after talking to the owner, whom I know socially to make sure it was a one off event). I'm sure some people would want a drink and would switch airlines.

Actually, I'm sure Express jet is operating on such low margins, can they operate at even break even without alcohol and related ancillary sales? and whoa to the airline if the customer has a coupon or other 'freebie' for booze. Customers do not do well when denied freebies they were promised!   

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 4):

There is ample legal precedent that companies need to provide "reasonable accommodation" for peoples religious beliefs

The problem is the job definition includes serving alcohol. The issue is Expressjet only has 1 or 2 F/As per aircraft. Exactly how do you accommodate the person without hiring an extra F/A and then start down the slippery slope of having to have at least one non-muslim F/A per flight?

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 4):
There was a case a few years of ago of Muslim I believe stock clerk at Target or some other box store refused to touch pork or alcohol products.

A bit different. How many employees does Target have per store? Set up perhaps 25% of the stocking positions that don't handle pork or alcohol and the rest, once those jobs are full, require handling pork or alcohol. While serving alcohol is a tiny portion of the job, it takes a larger aircraft with two F/As manning either side of the drink cart to reasonably accommodate such a religious belief.

While express jet will have to pay quite a bit in legal expenses, I see them winning this case due to staffing only one or two F/As per jet.

Lightsaber

Late edit:
FWIW, I have met few (if any) great sales engineers or great outsourcing executives who didn't like to have a drink on a flight. Since they tend to be the ones demanding to still fly domestic F/international J, Express jet's customer airlines would loose those customers without alcohol sales.

For the record, the last time I had a drink on a flight was (I think) 2010 (due to personally feeling dehydrated on most flights). I've had multiple issues with drunks on flights who didn't take the hint I didn't want to talk/discuss/argue with an inebriated person. But I also know how strong of a customer preference this is. I'll side with the business case. e.g., why are the ME3 such a big deal while Saudia... isn't. I couldn't imagine any dry airline capturing any significant business from dozens of cities throughout the world. e.g., serving Octoberfest in Munich (Wow... I did some Googling and the 2nd largest beer festival attracts, if the numbers I saw were correct, less than 1% as many visitors!)


Lightsaber

[Edited 2015-09-01 14:05:04]
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RE: ExpressJet Muslim FA Files Suit Over Alcohol

Tue Sep 01, 2015 9:06 pm

Normally Im the one to say Muslims are misunderstood.

However, just as I said with the clerk in Kentucky who refused to marry gay couples, the scope of you job has changed relative to your beliefs. If you can no longer do you job because of your beliefs, its time to find a new job or swallow your pride.
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N766UA
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RE: ExpressJet Muslim FA Files Suit Over Alcohol

Tue Sep 01, 2015 9:09 pm

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 13):
If you can no longer do you job because of your beliefs, its time to find a new job or swallow your pride.

Except that, in this country, we foster selfishness. So, rather than say "this job no longer suits me" and move on like an adult who has made a personal/professional decision, she has instead elected to SUE her company and tie up the court system with her nonsense. It's ridiculous, and it's just another reflection of the me me me attitude that prevails in our society.
 
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RE: ExpressJet Muslim FA Files Suit Over Alcohol

Tue Sep 01, 2015 9:13 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 4):
Suppose question is, what accommodation did ExpressJet offer this employee and would it be considered reasonable or would it have created unreasonable burden on the business?

The only accommodation they could make would be to remove her from FA duty altogether and find her someplace else to work in the company. While having the other FA serve the alcohol might be workable, Expressjet flies many flights with aircraft that only have one FA onboard, and it is very impractical to schedule people in such a way that they only fly on the larger aircraft that have two FAs.

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Marvinhsv
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RE: ExpressJet Muslim FA Files Suit Over Alcohol

Tue Sep 01, 2015 9:23 pm

Quoting N766UA (Reply 9):
You need to quit if your job conflicts with your beliefs!

which is also no suprise for a FA...

Quoting N766UA (Reply 14):
to SUE her company and tie up

Unfortunately those kind of trials seem to work out for them quite often in the US, don't they?

At least the kind of feeling I have when certain news pop up.
 
Kiwirob
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RE: ExpressJet Muslim FA Files Suit Over Alcohol

Tue Sep 01, 2015 9:29 pm

Reminds me of when I was a teenager working in a petrol station, we had a guy working there who was at seminary school, he refused to sell condoms and jizz mags, the boss eventually fired him because we sold a lot of condoms on nights shift, he worked mostly nights and his attitude cost sales.

He eventually saw the light, some if his mates got him drunk, got him a hooker, once he discovered the joys of women, boobs and sex becoming a priest lost it's attraction.
 
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RE: ExpressJet Muslim FA Files Suit Over Alcohol

Tue Sep 01, 2015 9:33 pm

Quoting Marvinhsv (Reply 16):
Unfortunately those kind of trials seem to work out for them quite often in the US, don't they?

Yep, they do, and it's unfortunate. I could understand if she said "I can't do this job anymore, would you be willing to offer me a job elsewhere in the company?" and they said "no, screw off!" Then I'd probably be on her side. I don't think that's the case, though.
 
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RE: ExpressJet Muslim FA Files Suit Over Alcohol

Tue Sep 01, 2015 9:36 pm

Quoting winterlight (Reply 1):
And Muslims wonder why others hate them. Keep religion out of work and cooking or better still ditch it all together.

1)There are Muslims, Catholics, Jews etc. and then there are idiots/hustlers who want to make a quick buck using the legal system. Those exist in every religion.

2) Next time you generalize on hatred towards a certain religion, please have the decency to clarify you are speaking for your own bigot self. Not everybody else.

Quoting EC99 (Reply 6):
Serving alcohol is part of a flight attendants job and at some point, the impetus is on the person if they need such a significant religious accommodations in a secular society.

As a former employee of a big US based energy company, we had paid vacations and "one personal religious day" every year. That day was a day which in your religion was a holiday (aside from what Western society takes as a given, such as Christmas) But guess what started happening? A few smart alecks wanting more vacation days started complaining that: "The company is making me choose ONE DAY among the MANY DAYS MY RELIGION has as holy...how in the world can I do that...? I am being put in an untenable position!!..

It ended up being a free for all where unofficially you just asked your boss for a "personal religious day" any time it suited you and you could prove it with a calendar.

In my humble opinion, when in a secular State and society, you start acommodating for religious beliefs, you risk generating chaos, and different treatment for the same citizens, based only on their religion. It brings undesirable results, inequality and unfairness.

I believe this FA is tired of her job, and is just trying to find a well financed way out, abusing the generosity the US provides for its different religious minorities, even though being a mostly secular nation. Shame on her and I wish she looses.
 
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RE: ExpressJet Muslim FA Files Suit Over Alcohol

Tue Sep 01, 2015 9:51 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 4):
There is ample legal precedent that companies need to provide "reasonable accommodation" for peoples religious beliefs

You're correct. However, exempting someone from performing part of their job is not considered a reasonable accommodation.
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RE: ExpressJet Muslim FA Files Suit Over Alcohol

Tue Sep 01, 2015 9:57 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 11):
A bit different. How many employees does Target have per store? Set up perhaps 25% of the stocking positions that don't handle pork or alcohol and the rest, once those jobs are full, require handling pork or alcohol. While serving alcohol is a tiny portion of the job, it takes a larger aircraft with two F/As manning either side of the drink cart to reasonably accommodate such a religious belief

Moreover, stores have to deal with weird labor rules all the time. I couldn't stock alcohol because I wasn't 21 when I worked at a grocery store (store policy, not some law or religious issue). I could handle cigarettes, however, because I was at least 18. I could run the trash compactor and the baler, but my 16-17yo colleagues could not (health and safety rules). They couldn't work past 9pm or more than 20 hours on a school week. I ended up getting extra shifts because of that.

Perhaps this individual should have become a gate agent or phone representative. Honestly, the pay is not that different and you still get the flight benefits.
 
toobz
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RE: ExpressJet Muslim FA Files Suit Over Alcohol

Tue Sep 01, 2015 10:10 pm

And I wonder what kind of accommodations a westerner receives in the Middle East lol. If you are that hardcore in your religion then move to where its prevalent. No sympathy for someone that made their own choice and than expect others to have to be ok and accepting of their bizarre line of thinking. It's 2015 not the Stone Age.
 
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RE: ExpressJet Muslim FA Files Suit Over Alcohol

Tue Sep 01, 2015 10:12 pm

Quoting N766UA (Reply 10):
Wow, hate free speech much? People are allowed to be bigots if they want, and you're allowed to disagree with them if you want. Perhaps you'd rather everyone was just exactly like you? Sounds boring to me, honestly. LOL a "bigotry test."

Oh dear lord... Constitutional law 101. First of all, our (i.e. American) notion of free speech and free speech elsewhere are not one and the same. That said, people are allowed to be bigots as long as a state actor doesn't infringe upon their right to be bigots. A private actor can absolutely require a "bigotry" test if they so chose. This website could implement such a thing, and it would not be violating anyone's right to free speech, at least in the United States.

Quoting Marvinhsv (Reply 16):
Unfortunately those kind of trials seem to work out for them quite often in the US, don't they?

Not really. Some work out, some don't. The media blows these sorts of trials, and leaves a lot of extremely important details out of their reporting. The McDonald's hot coffee case (pretty much the "poster child" for "frivolous" lawsuits) was FAR more nuanced in reality than the media ever let on. Most of these cases are. What the media often fails to mention is that an attorney can be, and will be, sanctioned if he brings a suit without a basis in law. The media, and tort reformers, like to portray this as much more of an issue than it actually is. Of course frivolous suits are filed, but by no means do they represent the majority of legal actions in this country. What's often not discussed is that these cases made it to a jury because there was a legal basis for the parties to continue the action. Furthermore, the media often forgets to mention that a lot of this jury awards are adjusted either by the judge who presided over the case or on appeal. Like I said, the idea of runaway juries handing out free money to people filing frivolous lawsuits is largely a fiction perpetuated by the media.

Quoting N766UA (Reply 14):
So, rather than say "this job no longer suits me" and move on like an adult who has made a personal/professional decision, she has instead elected to SUE her company and tie up the court system with her nonsense.

We have one article here, and it looks to only be a partial link which I could not access. We don't know the full story. Did she do more than ask her fellow flight attendants to serve alcohol for her? Did she ask for reasonable accommodations from the carrier, which they refused to honor? Did she asked to be reassigned given her new found religious beliefs, and they refused to do so? If her case has a basis in law, then it's not just nonsense intended to tie up the court system.
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billreid
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RE: ExpressJet Muslim FA Files Suit Over Alcohol

Tue Sep 01, 2015 10:31 pm

I am sick of people who think their religious beliefs outweigh the business. Alcohol is part of the revenue stream. Remove it from airlines and we talk about pulling a revenue centre.

So her suggestion is reduce company revenues to suit her religious beliefs?

Forget it. You have the right to beliefs, you do not have the right to actions that conflict with others beliefs and welfare.

Her position on alcohol is disrespectful to the US culture. If she doesn't like it leave and go in live in a more suitable society! Why do law abiding citizens need to change for her?

Moslims wish to change the West. Yet our society is based on more than a thousand years of law and development. So leave it alone!

Go work for Emirates or Saudia or Ethitihad or Qatar or Kuwait. But don't tell western based firms what their customers should or should not drink!
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LAXdude1023
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RE: ExpressJet Muslim FA Files Suit Over Alcohol

Tue Sep 01, 2015 10:33 pm

Quoting N766UA (Reply 14):

Except that, in this country, we foster selfishness. So, rather than say "this job no longer suits me" and move on like an adult who has made a personal/professional decision, she has instead elected to SUE her company and tie up the court system with her nonsense. It's ridiculous, and it's just another reflection of the me me me attitude that prevails in our society.

Youre absolutely right.

The whole "religious freedom" argement is basically just a code word for "I want to force my morals on the public at large".

Religious people in America need some perspective. If youre Christian, go spend time in Northern Pakistan to gain perspective. If youre Muslim, go live in Eastern India. See what it really looks like to be persecuted.

Claiming persecution because you have to issue a marriage license to a gay couple or because your Muslim and you dont want to serve a Michelob Ultra on a plane is pure garbage.
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777way
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RE: ExpressJet Muslim FA Files Suit Over Alcohol

Tue Sep 01, 2015 10:45 pm

Muslims cannot serve, make, store, drink, sell or deal in booze and pork in any manner, including related products.

That they are doing it is another thing.

Quoting winterlight (Reply 1):

And Muslims wonder why others hate them.

Actually they dont care, havent you noticed that? if they did majority would be aping your culture and trying to fit in like jews and others.

Quoting billreid (Reply 24):

Go work for Emirates or Saudia or Ethitihad or Qatar or Kuwait. But don't tell western based firms what their customers should or should not drink!

Ignorance at its best, EK, EY and QR arent dry airlines.

[Edited 2015-09-01 16:37:11]
 
YouGeeElWhy
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RE: ExpressJet Muslim FA Files Suit Over Alcohol

Tue Sep 01, 2015 11:01 pm

Quoting 777way (Reply 26):

Muslims cannot serve, make, store, drink, sell or deal in booze and pork in any manner, including related products.

That they are doing it is another thing.

Depending on how virulent the strain of Islam there are a whole host of other rules that she broke by working outside the house without a guardian amongst unmarried men. That women needs to get a grip.

[Edited 2015-09-01 16:01:55]
 
jetblue1965
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RE: ExpressJet Muslim FA Files Suit Over Alcohol

Tue Sep 01, 2015 11:03 pm

this is a bad precedent. how does one draw the line between "religious beliefs" and outright discrimination ?

if I belong to some cult that bans working on mondays through saturdays, am I supposed to ask the airline to only schedule me to work sundays ? or if I belong to some cult that believe women shouldn't be allowed to fly, am I supposed to ask the airline to allow me to only serve male customers ?

religion has no place in the work place. keep your freak at home or in temple.
 
Turkish350XWB
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RE: ExpressJet Muslim FA Files Suit Over Alcohol

Tue Sep 01, 2015 11:13 pm

I heard similar stories of some cashiers in the UK refusing to touch the alcohol bottles of customers. As far as I know, Islam forbids the consumption of alcohol, not its touching. So how is that behaviour related to religion? I more believe that this behaviour is based on illusion. And as a society we will run into trouble if we start considering every individual's illusions.
 
777way
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RE: ExpressJet Muslim FA Files Suit Over Alcohol

Tue Sep 01, 2015 11:13 pm

The woman is an American convert, I think some people arent getting that bit and re picturing a born muslim immigrant type.

Quoting toobz (Reply 22):
And I wonder what kind of accommodations a westerner receives in the Middle East lol.

They are given preferetial treatement over others thats for sure.

[Edited 2015-09-01 16:28:55]
 
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RE: ExpressJet Muslim FA Files Suit Over Alcohol

Tue Sep 01, 2015 11:24 pm

Quoting 777way (Reply 30):
The woman is an American convert

Which is why I believe she's more stringent with her beliefs than a natural born Muslim could be eg the Muslim crews onboard EK, EY, QR, MH & SQ. I find converts to be more embracing of the Muslim faith simply because they had to discover it and such values it more than a natural born.

Anyways, we're getting only part of the story. If this link is to be believed, there's more to it than "cabin crew being fired because she didn't want to serve alcohol. I quote http://www.detroitnews.com/story/new...-muslim-flight-attendant/71490804/

Quote:
The Michigan chapter of the Council on American-Islamic Relations said the airline had directed employee Charee Stanley , to work out arrangements with the other flight attendant on duty to accommodate passengers’ requests for alcohol. The setup, it said, had worked without incident until Aug. 25, when ExpressJet placed Stanley on administrative leave for 12 months, after which her position may be terminated, according to CAIR.
Quote:
The organization believes that ExpressJet Airlines revoked Stanley’s religious accommodation request based upon a complaint by a fellow employee that referenced the Islamic head scarf Stanley wears.

The fact that she was able to work without problems right up to a week ago does sound like there's more to this case than meets the eye.
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RE: ExpressJet Muslim FA Files Suit Over Alcohol

Tue Sep 01, 2015 11:26 pm

Quoting EC99 (Reply 6):

The more I think about it, even if there are two F/As, it disrupts the customer experience.

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 13):

Even worse, she converted. If there was a ground job, she should have taken it. Sadly, I think there is a small paycut for ground jobs.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 19):

That abuse ended religious holidays at my work. There is a winter shutdown from December 25th starting back January 2nd. But all other religion based days such as good Friday are now work days. Everyone gets personal time off they can use how they want:vacation, religion, or sick days.

Quoting toobz (Reply 22):

The ME3 realized alcohol accommodation was required to thrive. Many older airlines didn't adapt and are small in comparison

Quoting billreid (Reply 24):

That is what matters. Accommodation requires a revenue reduction. Therefore there in no reasonable accommodations other than a ground position.

Lightsaber
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RE: ExpressJet Muslim FA Files Suit Over Alcohol

Tue Sep 01, 2015 11:26 pm

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 13):
the scope of you job has changed relative to your beliefs

the scope of the job didn't change, her beliefs did. She knew the job and changed after she was hired. She is free to resign or look for another position within the company, but that us the extent of her rights as far as I can see. I do not feel that her employer needs to do anything
 
rampbro
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RE: ExpressJet Muslim FA Files Suit Over Alcohol

Tue Sep 01, 2015 11:37 pm

She should apply for the County Clerk's position in Rowan County, KY....I hear a vacancy will be opening up there real soon.....
 
777way
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RE: ExpressJet Muslim FA Files Suit Over Alcohol

Tue Sep 01, 2015 11:41 pm

She was wearing a head scarf at work? I dont think crew shoul be allowed that outside of Muslim countries, even they dont allow it, many Malaysian and Indonesian ground staff wear scarf on uniform but none allowed onboard the airlines.
 
eastern747
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RE: ExpressJet Muslim FA Files Suit Over Alcohol

Tue Sep 01, 2015 11:45 pm

So let me get this right. Person applies for a F/A job and is accepted. They go through training and are trained to serve cocktails. Knowing this and start flying. Suddenly Allah falls in their laps and now they can't serve drinks. Solution...they have a choice work in rez or the gates. What next ? put down a prayer rug in the middle of the shift in the aisle of the plane or gate room. If fanatic Muslims want to live in my country.....fine. If you aren't happy with that, MOVE to a Muslim country, or just shut up. How many Jewish folks work on Friday and don't moan and groan?
 
VX321
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RE: ExpressJet Muslim FA Files Suit Over Alcohol

Tue Sep 01, 2015 11:49 pm

While I believe it is important to try to accommodate people based on certain issues that the law spells out, it is also just as important to do the work assigned. I am quite surprised she hasn't been asked to serve alcohol before since she was on a CRJ-200,so why does she now bring it up as an issue? Considering she is an FA on a 50 seat jet,she will be the ONLY FA on the plane. Her job description is to serve drinks, alcohol included. She choose to be an FA. She choose to be Muslim. If accommodating her means that she cannot due her duties,then she cannot be an FA. Therefore, she should either ask to be put into a different department or leave the airline. While I understand her side, I side with the airline because the law takes bona fide job requirements into account and if she cannot perform those duties as such,she needs to resign or risk firing. While I also don't enjoy see flaming on Anet. (or flames on any plane for that matter), a note should be made. At one point or another, someone's toes or beliefs will be stepped on. It happens to all of us,and there is nothing we can do about it. IMHO,compromise is crucial and everyone and every group needs to understand this. This FA should probably work for Saudi or another dry airline if alcohol bothers her this much.
 
N1120A
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RE: ExpressJet Muslim FA Files Suit Over Alcohol

Wed Sep 02, 2015 12:06 am

Quoting falstaff (Thread starter):
If she was a cook at a restaurant could she refuse to cook pork?

Potentially.

Quoting N766UA (Reply 10):
It 100% absolutely causes unreasonable burden to their business. Alcoholic beverages cost $$, in fact they cost a lot of it. If she won't serve the products that make her company money, she is impeding their business. Perhaps they can offer her a job elsewhere in the company?

1) Their business is air transportation. Sale of alcoholic beverages is not all that important in that equation.

2) With the decreasing number of 50 seat planes generally, most regional flying is now on planes that require 2 FAs. In that case, the FA could easily be scheduled to work with an FA who will serve alcohol.

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 20):
However, exempting someone from performing part of their job is not considered a reasonable accommodation.

Actually, the whole point of reasonable accommodation is an alteration of the working environment in order to assure the person is able to continue working.
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Mir
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RE: ExpressJet Muslim FA Files Suit Over Alcohol

Wed Sep 02, 2015 12:16 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 39):
In that case, the FA could easily be scheduled to work with an FA who will serve alcohol.

But that affects the way everyone else bids, which is a contractually negotiated process and thus can't just be changed. Additionally, the need for flexibility during IROPS means that having an FA who can only work flights with two FAs would require additional reserve coverage, which again could run up against contractual limits. It's an unworkable situation for the airline. If they want to offer her employment elsewhere in the company, they're welcome to, and if she wants to take it she's welcome to as well. Otherwise she should seek employment elsewhere.

-Mir
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N1120A
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RE: ExpressJet Muslim FA Files Suit Over Alcohol

Wed Sep 02, 2015 12:23 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 40):
But that affects the way everyone else bids, which is a contractually negotiated process and thus can't just be changed.

That is partly dependent on the contract.
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RE: ExpressJet Muslim FA Files Suit Over Alcohol

Wed Sep 02, 2015 12:29 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 40):


If they want to offer her employment elsewhere in the company, they're welcome to, and if she wants to take it she's welcome to as well. Otherwise she should seek employment elsewhere.

Well said. Few people have been forced to convert at sword/gunpoint in the New World for a couple of centuries at least.

Becoming a Muslim his her choice. Emphasis on choice. Now said choice and her choice to practice her choice in a certain way interferes with her job. The company can find her a new spot or let her go. Their choice.

If I'm a male hustler and suddenly become an Evangelical Born Again Christian, my new choice would probably tell me it's time to stop turning tricks and find something that agrees with my new religious choice. Like a job at Chik-Fil-A.

And yes, I'm going to use the word "choice" one last time.
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TheFlyingDisk
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RE: ExpressJet Muslim FA Files Suit Over Alcohol

Wed Sep 02, 2015 12:34 am

Quoting OzarkD9S (Reply 42):
The company can find her a new spot or let her go. Their choice.

Reading the link that was given, it seems the company didn't give her a choice of selecting a new spot but instead chose to put her on administrative leave.

Looks like she doesn't have much of a choice in this matter.
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enilria
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RE: ExpressJet Muslim FA Files Suit Over Alcohol

Wed Sep 02, 2015 12:48 am

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 4):
Quoting falstaff (Thread starter):
If she was a cook at a restaurant could she refuse to cook pork?

Actually yes

What if she was a bartender? Or a lifeguard that demanded people in the pool be covered?

Let me say this, however, the issue is really that you have to be able to function within a country's culture and if you can't then there isn't really going to be any reasonable way to force everybody else to accede to your beliefs. CONVERSELY, I feel the same way when somebody gets held in jail for years in Dubai for having sex in a car or whatever similar act. That's the culture there and even if you are a tourist you have to respect it. The USA is not the only valid culture, but when you are in the USA that's the culture you have to live with and when you are in another country you have to respect theirs. It's that simple.
 
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Classa64
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RE: ExpressJet Muslim FA Files Suit Over Alcohol

Wed Sep 02, 2015 12:54 am

Sorry but she converted to Islam AFTER she was already hired . This is not the airlines problem, its all on her.
I applaud her effort to make it work, but asking someone else to do parts of the job you were hired for, and agreed to, is not the way it works.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 39):
Actually, the whole point of reasonable accommodation is an alteration of the working environment in order to assure the person is able to continue working.

Agree they should find her another area to work in, though she new going in this would happen, no one converts overnight. Put her on a plane that does not serve maybe?

Quoting N1120A (Reply 39):
2) With the decreasing number of 50 seat planes generally, most regional flying is now on planes that require 2 FAs. In that case, the FA could easily be scheduled to work with an FA who will serve alcohol.

Increasing the workload for the other F/A, how would anyone feel if they were asked to do more work just because of someone's beliefs. More stress added to an already stressful job dealing with the public, no one will want to work with her.
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iad2cdg
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RE: ExpressJet Muslim FA Files Suit Over Alcohol

Wed Sep 02, 2015 12:57 am

Quoting EASTERN747 (Reply 37):
So let me get this right. Person applies for a F/A job and is accepted. They go through training and are trained to serve cocktails. Knowing this and start flying. Suddenly Allah falls in their laps and now they can't serve drinks. Solution...they have a choice work in rez or the gates. What next ? put down a prayer rug in the middle of the shift in the aisle of the plane or gate room. If fanatic Muslims want to live in my country.....fine. If you aren't happy with that, MOVE to a Muslim country, or just shut up. How many Jewish folks work on Friday and don't moan and groan?


I don't think it's that fanatical not to want to serve alcohol. Contrary to the job description yes, but not fanatical. If that's fanatical, then I'd like to have a chat with the fanatics who made laws such that I can't buy wine before noon on Sundays. Can you make them move too?

And it's fine for Jews to work on Friday, as long as it's before sundown.
 
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TheFlyingDisk
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RE: ExpressJet Muslim FA Files Suit Over Alcohol

Wed Sep 02, 2015 1:04 am

Quoting enilria (Reply 44):
What if she was a bartender? Or a lifeguard that demanded people in the pool be covered?

If she was a bartender, I agree that she should quit because serving alcohol is the MAIN role of a bartender. Serving alcohol is NOT the main role of a flight attendant. Plus, she had a working arrangement that was ok right up till last week so again I say there's more to this story than meets the eye.

Quoting enilria (Reply 44):
Let me say this, however, the issue is really that you have to be able to function within a country's culture and if you can't then there isn't really going to be any reasonable way to force everybody else to accede to your beliefs.

It doesn't really apply in this case because:
a) She's not forcing people to stop drinking alcohol, she's asking if she could be accommodated to not serve alcohol by swapping duties with her colleagues onboard
b) She's an African American, not a foreigner. I should think she's familiar with American culture and felt that her request is not really a hindrance to anybody else.
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IMissPiedmont
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RE: ExpressJet Muslim FA Files Suit Over Alcohol

Wed Sep 02, 2015 1:11 am

Many decades ago, when I was hiring people to work in a store chain that sold alcohol, tobacco and some really disgusting magazines, I hired a woman for one of the stores. She knew what almost all our sales were and did not object. Her first day on the job alone she refused all sales of these products. When I fired her, she tried to sue. Yep, she lost. This flight attendant does not have a leg to stand on, she is simply not qualified for the job.
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Androol
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RE: ExpressJet Muslim FA Files Suit Over Alcohol

Wed Sep 02, 2015 1:25 am

I wonder what kind of 'reasonable' accommodation can be made for her. If she is working an EMB-145 flight, where she would be the only FA on board, the job of serving alcohol cannot be handed over to someone else. I doubt any court would find it reasonable to have a totally different set of rules (e.g. sorry passengers, this will be an alcohol free flight) on a flight where she worked.

I am also not a lawyer but I do know that in at least some areas airlines are exempt from many laws that apply to other industries, or have special laws. Back when I flew a Beech 1900 in the U.S. I would occasionally get a customer who would claim that our aircraft was not in compliance with the Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA), some would get quite angry. I would then explain to them that airlines are not covered by the ADA but instead covered by the ACAA, Air Carrier Access Act, and that our aircraft was fully in compliance with the ACAA. Anyway, I am wondering if there are exceptions for airlines in EEOC policy because of the unique nature of the industry or the unique requirements to be a flight attendant.

Lastly I have to wonder at what point do we draw a line on personal religious beliefs interfering with living in a modern society and a persons job performance. Look at the case of the County Clerk in Kentucky who is now openly defying a court order that is requiring her to issue marriage licenses to gay couples, a court order that has now been upheld by the U.S. Supreme Court. She is claiming her religious convictions prevent from issuing gay marriage licences. What happens if this flight attendant in question decides that her devotion to Islam now prevents her from working with Jewish people, or she begins to refuse serving or providing assistance to an Orthodox Jew on her flight. In the United States she certainly has the right to believe what she wants to believe, but at what point do her beliefs no longer need to be accommodated because they are now infringing on the equally important rights of others? Glad I don't have to be the one making the decisions...
 
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RE: ExpressJet Muslim FA Files Suit Over Alcohol

Wed Sep 02, 2015 1:36 am

People need to get over themselves. If their savior is really going to damn them to wherever for being complicit in these job related duties he's a dick in the first place.

Don't care if its this instance, a hassidic not wanting to sit by a woman, an overzealous county clerk, or mortal outrage if a bible verse pops up somewhere. Get over yourself.

[Edited 2015-09-01 18:41:14]
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trex8
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RE: ExpressJet Muslim FA Files Suit Over Alcohol

Wed Sep 02, 2015 1:48 am

My wife the trauma surgeon always likes to say one day she is going to become a Jehovahs Witness and stop transfusing dying people because its against her religion. Religious beliefs should be of no consequence unless the 'forbidden act" is being foisted on that person. No one is making this FA drink alcohol, marry a gay, get an abortion or personally receive a transfusion. Some people need to just get over it. Besides who is to decide whats a real religious belief? You can get a certificate saying you are a pastor on line and then start your own church and religion.
 
N1120A
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RE: ExpressJet Muslim FA Files Suit Over Alcohol

Wed Sep 02, 2015 1:52 am

Quoting Classa64 (Reply 45):
Increasing the workload for the other F/A, how would anyone feel if they were asked to do more work just because of someone's beliefs. More stress added to an already stressful job dealing with the public, no one will want to work with her.

Very marginally. That is why the measure is reasonableness.
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thekorean
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RE: ExpressJet Muslim FA Files Suit Over Alcohol

Wed Sep 02, 2015 2:09 am

Quoting trex8 (Reply 51):

Hell no one foreced her to convert to begin with. Her religious conversion makes it her responsibility to find a job that would accomodate her belief.
 
AR385
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RE: ExpressJet Muslim FA Files Suit Over Alcohol

Wed Sep 02, 2015 2:30 am

Quoting TheFlyingDisk (Reply 47):
Serving alcohol is NOT the main role of a flight attendant.

If we are going down the road of another discussion like the hundreds over the years on a.net on wether an FA is there for SAFETY vs SERVICE, then I´d suggest you just look over those countless threads. No point of starting one based on this particular situation.

An FA´s main role is dual. Sure, she is there for safety, but she is also there in a Customer Service role and as such she is there to serve food, alcohol, refreshments, etc. Alcohol being more important, since it is a significant revenue generator for airlines in most countries. If you told the bean counters at ExpressJet that her religious beliefs should be accommodated because serving alcohol is not the main role of an FA, they´ll laugh so hard it would be funny.

Quoting TheFlyingDisk (Reply 47):
b) She's an African American, not a foreigner. I should think she's familiar with American culture and felt that her request is not really a hindrance to anybody else.

She is. In fact, so familiar, she is working the legal system as any other proud American does when they think their rights are being stepped on (or wants to make quick money)
 
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ThrottleHold
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RE: ExpressJet Muslim FA Files Suit Over Alcohol

Wed Sep 02, 2015 2:30 am

Quoting tonystan (Reply 7):

You are an example of why they should make everyone take a test against bigotry to use the internet!

There is none so intolerant as those who preach tolerance.

Paradox of tolerance:
The tolerance paradox arises when a tolerant person holds antagonistic views towards intolerance, and hence is intolerant of it. The tolerant individual would then be by definition intolerant of intolerance.
 
smw757
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RE: ExpressJet Muslim FA Files Suit Over Alcohol

Wed Sep 02, 2015 2:32 am

I think you all may be missing the true seriousness of the issue...

 
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lightsaber
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RE: ExpressJet Muslim FA Files Suit Over Alcohol

Wed Sep 02, 2015 2:38 am

Quoting iad2cdg (Reply 46):

Blue laws are silly. But they are part of a region. During Ramadan, alcohol is not served in Dubai. I consider it silly, but the regional decision that is their choice.

Quoting TheFlyingDisk (Reply 47):

But alcohol is promised the customers and part of the marginal revenue model of RJ service. It might not be a major part of the job, it is a part of the job.

Is express jet growing? If not, there wouldn't be land jobs.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 52):

I think it would be more than a marginal increase in work. These are short regional flights with few upsell opportunities. She didn't upsell as part of the sales part of the job...

Lightsaber
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ThrottleHold
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RE: ExpressJet Muslim FA Files Suit Over Alcohol

Wed Sep 02, 2015 2:41 am

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 57):
During Ramadan, alcohol is not served in Dubai. I

Not true.
Alcohol is only not served during daylight hours in Ramadan. Otherwise, its as normal.

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