SpaceshipDC10
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RE: Would MD11 Be Popular If 777 Wasnt Built?

Sun Sep 06, 2015 12:22 pm

Quoting bmacleod (Reply 49):
Definitely McDonnell would be going ahead with a stretched MD-11, the MD-XX.

I wish they had, however, all these years later, that third engine would have played against it, structurally and maintenance wise because a twin can do the job now and also because the engine is up there in the tail.
 
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Stitch
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RE: Would MD11 Be Popular If 777 Wasnt Built?

Sun Sep 06, 2015 3:29 pm

Quoting bmacleod (Reply 49):
Definitely McDonnell would be going ahead with a stretched MD-11, the MD-XX.
Quoting SpaceshipDC10 (Reply 50):
I wish they had, however, all these years later, that third engine would have played against it, structurally and maintenance wise because a twin can do the job now and also because the engine is up there in the tail.

It would have finally had the new supercritical wing, however, which would have helped in the aerodynamics department.
 
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atypical
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RE: Would MD11 Be Popular If 777 Wasnt Built?

Mon Sep 07, 2015 4:13 am

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 44):
As to the main question, if Boeing had not built the 777 I do think the main beneficiary would have been the A340...

I am not so sure. It is my understanding the A-340 was driven primarily by Lufthansa and sold poorly. The Lufthansa Group was responsible for 38% of the 377 orders.

A340 377
A330 1,403
B767 1,662

Some airlines are divesting themselves of plane fairly early.
Virgin Atlantic Airframes:

449 12 years
376 11 years
615 10 years

Compared to the 747-400 first delivered in 1994 and last in 2003 and all are active except one divested.

I think the A330 would have won more orders than the B767 without the B777 but I don't think the A340 would have generated a significant number of orders.
 
SPREE34
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RE: Would MD11 Be Popular If 777 Wasnt Built?

Mon Sep 07, 2015 4:18 am

Quoting UA444 (Reply 12):
And Airbus itself wasn't as established.

You may want to brush up on Airbus history. They were making wide body aircraft well be for the MD-11 came along.
I don't understand everything I don't know about this.
 
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shengzhurou
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RE: Would MD11 Be Popular If 777 Wasnt Built?

Mon Sep 07, 2015 4:36 am

Quoting SPREE34 (Reply 53):

MD11 is just an advanced long range version of the DC10
Sheng Zhu Rou
 
UA444
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RE: Would MD11 Be Popular If 777 Wasnt Built?

Mon Sep 07, 2015 6:06 am

Quoting SPREE34 (Reply 53):

I'm aware of that. That doesn't change the fact that they were still not as well established with the airlines as Douglas and Boeing.
 
Flyingsottsman
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RE: Would MD11 Be Popular If 777 Wasnt Built?

Mon Sep 07, 2015 11:32 am

I wonder if the airlines around the world take a close look at what the US carriers do as far as their aircraft they order go in their fleets and how they preform before they order or take delivery of their ordered aircraft. I will use AA as an example. American Airlines used the DC-10 as their work horse the series 10s and 30s even though they had the 747s for a little while they got rid of them and used the DC-10s for their major domestic and intercontinental routes. UA had a large number of them as well as Northwest, National, Western all had decent size fleets. When the MD-11 was launched AA replaced their DC-10s with the MD-11 but I believe were not happy with them, once the 777 was launched, the MD-11 was replaced and it seemed quite quickly. UA never took the MD-11 after being a big DC-10 operator, Delta didn't seem to have them in their fleet for long, Northwest didn't have them in their fleet at all to replace the DC-10s, Continental never replaced their DC-10s with the MD-11 they used the DC-10s until they disposed of them after 9/11.

So with those examples do you airlines in other parts of the world look at the US carriers to see how their MD-11s were preforming for them before taking delivery or even ordering them? The European 747/DC-10 carriers, some of them never replaced the DC-10s with the MD-11s apart from KLM that got years out of them but Lufthansa only got the cargo version, Iberia never used the MD-11, Finnair didn't seem to have them for long, they didn't even seem to be around for a while with Alitalia either. They seem to work for Swiss Air when they were flying. Even the Southeast Asian carriers apart from Thai, got rid of the MD-11s quickly JL, KE didn't seem to have them in their fleet for long either.

I think they were a beautiful looking aircraft and I do miss the DC-10/MD-11 flying into Melbourne they were my favourite aircraft, but I think the MD-11 still would have struggled even if the 777 was never developed I think they would have enhanced the 767s more or the 748i as we know it now, would have been developed much earlier. And not forgetting Airbus and especially the A330. So I wonder if they looked to the US carriers and used their annualises on the MD-11s as a deciding factor on whether to order of cancel or even of load their MD-11s.
 
peterinlisbon
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RE: Would MD11 Be Popular If 777 Wasnt Built?

Mon Sep 07, 2015 11:52 am

Quoting 38m (Reply 5):
Huge success of A340/330, a lot more of MD-11, IL-96, 747,767... and even A380!

That would make plane spotting a lot more interesting than it is today. It's getting dull seeing nothing but A320s and 777s at Heathrow these days.
 
SpaceshipDC10
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RE: Would MD11 Be Popular If 777 Wasnt Built?

Mon Sep 07, 2015 11:55 am

Quoting Flyingsottsman (Reply 56):
When the MD-11 was launched AA replaced their DC-10s with the MD-11 but I believe were not happy with them, once the 777 was launched, the MD-11 was replaced and it seemed quite quickly.

You believe right. Crandall went public quickly to say the MD-11 wasn't performing according to numbers announced by the manufacturer. AA agreed to sale its MD-11s to FX in 1997 with deliveries between 1997 and 2001 or 2002.

Quoting Flyingsottsman (Reply 56):
So with those examples do you airlines in other parts of the world look at the US carriers to see how their MD-11s were preforming for them before taking delivery or even ordering them?

Finnair, Delta, Korean, Swissair were amongst the very first airlines to receive the type. AY being the first to launch ops in December 1990.

Quoting Flyingsottsman (Reply 56):
Finnair didn't seem to have them for long,

Well it depends on what you consider as long. AY had them between 1990 and 2010 for passengers or 2011 for the freighters.

Quoting Flyingsottsman (Reply 56):
They didn't even seem to be around for a while with Alitalia either.

Alitalia is a different kind of airline that was bankrupt and flew the type either as passenger, combi or freighter between 1991 and 2009.
 
na
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RE: Would MD11 Be Popular If 777 Wasnt Built?

Mon Sep 07, 2015 12:19 pm

The A340 would have killed the MD-11 almost as fast if the 777 would not have appeared so soon. Maybe there would be a hundred more MD-11, but even without a 777 there would have been no new MD-11 built much later than the year 2000.

What I never understood: MDD waited much too long, they should have brought the plane in 1985. The DC-10 sales died down quickly from the late 70s onwards, so they should have had plenty of time at Long Beach. Did the KC-10 program distract them too much? Perhaps a little, but how many civilian DC-10s were built after 1985? A dozen perhaps?
 
SPREE34
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RE: Would MD11 Be Popular If 777 Wasnt Built?

Mon Sep 07, 2015 9:56 pm

Quoting UA444 (Reply 55):
I'm aware of that. That doesn't change the fact that they were still not as well established with the airlines as Douglas and Boeing.

I'll give you that, but you said "established" without clarification in the post I quoted.
I don't understand everything I don't know about this.
 
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notaxonrotax
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RE: Would MD11 Be Popular If 777 Wasnt Built?

Mon Sep 07, 2015 10:29 pm

Beautiful fairwell words:

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=829674687153230&substory_index=0&id=154333611354011&ref=m_notif&notif_t=like


No Tax On Rotax
For anybody that happens to be wondering:"yes, owning your own aircraft is a 100% worth it!"
 
na
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RE: Would MD11 Be Popular If 777 Wasnt Built?

Mon Sep 07, 2015 10:33 pm

Quoting notaxonrotax (Reply 61):
No Tax On Rotax

Forgive me that I am asking, but what is Rotax? I read it here several times, but no one ever explains it, and the web is no help. Is it a strange joke or what?
 
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atypical
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RE: Would MD11 Be Popular If 777 Wasnt Built?

Tue Sep 08, 2015 12:25 am

Quoting na (Reply 62):
but what is Rotax?

A small reciprocating engine that is widely used in Light-Sport Aircraft. I expect if chose the first LSA on a Google search they would have an aircraft using a Rotax.
 
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cageyjames
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RE: Would MD11 Be Popular If 777 Wasnt Built?

Tue Sep 08, 2015 12:36 am

Let's be honest, the MD-11 killed the MD-11. AA and DL (among most others) were so disappointed in the performance that they couldn't get rid of them soon enough. MD had one shot to stay independent with the MD-11 and unfortunately it failed. I'm glad I did get to fly at least one (on DL).
 
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mayor
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RE: Would MD11 Be Popular If 777 Wasnt Built?

Tue Sep 08, 2015 1:13 am

Quoting cageyjames (Reply 64):
I'm glad I did get to fly at least one (on DL)

I took a short hop on one from PDX-LAX and a much longer flight, ATH-ATL (11 hours).
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
 
Viscount724
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RE: Would MD11 Be Popular If 777 Wasnt Built?

Tue Sep 08, 2015 1:32 am

Quoting cageyjames (Reply 64):
Let's be honest, the MD-11 killed the MD-11. AA and DL (among most others) were so disappointed in the performance that they couldn't get rid of them soon enough. MD had one shot to stay independent with the MD-11 and unfortunately it failed. I'm glad I did get to fly at least one (on DL).

KLM always seemed happy with their MD-11s considering how long they kept them.

And the 200 MD-11s built wasn't that much less than the 250 L-1011s. And as has already been mentioned, the MD-11 could just as easily have been named DC-10-50 since it's so closely related, and total DC-10 plus MD-11 production was 646 (including the 60 KC-10s).
 
rwessel
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RE: Would MD11 Be Popular If 777 Wasnt Built?

Tue Sep 08, 2015 4:48 am

Quoting atypical (Reply 63):
A small reciprocating engine that is widely used in Light-Sport Aircraft. I expect if chose the first LSA on a Google search they would have an aircraft using a Rotax.

Of course the real question is why Rotax engines should not be subject to any taxes other small aircraft engines are subject to.
 
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notaxonrotax
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RE: Would MD11 Be Popular If 777 Wasnt Built?

Tue Sep 08, 2015 5:10 am

Quoting cageyjames (Reply 64):
Let's be honest, the MD-11 killed the MD-11. AA and DL (among most others) were so disappointed in the performance that they couldn't get rid of them soon enough. MD had one shot to stay independent with the MD-11 and unfortunately it failed. I'm glad I did get to fly at least one (on DL).

Agreed!
KLM kept them for a long time, I was lucky in that respect.

Quoting na (Reply 62):
Forgive me that I am asking, but what is Rotax? I read it here several times, but no one ever explains it, and the web is no help. Is it a strange joke or what?

You are forgiven! It is Austria's finest:

http://www.flyrotax.com/home.aspx

Quoting atypical (Reply 63):
I expect if chose the first LSA on a Google search they would have an aircraft using a Rotax.

Good choice!
If only MD-11 had them installed.

Quoting rwessel (Reply 67):
Of course the real question is why Rotax engines should not be subject to any taxes other small aircraft engines are subject to.

Thanks for asking, here it becomes a little personal:
Importing my aircraft was hell (customs wise etc) and around that time I started my A-net account.
There were long frustrating days in the customs office in which this name kind of popped up in my head: pure frustration! Not rational! Oh yes, and I thought it sounded cool, too!


(still) No Tax On Rotax
For anybody that happens to be wondering:"yes, owning your own aircraft is a 100% worth it!"
 
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atypical
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RE: Would MD11 Be Popular If 777 Wasnt Built?

Tue Sep 08, 2015 5:56 am

Quoting notaxonrotax (Reply 68):
(still) No Tax On Rotax

I learned something new. Interesting.
 
na
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RE: Would MD11 Be Popular If 777 Wasnt Built?

Tue Sep 08, 2015 7:55 am

Quoting atypical (Reply 63):
A small reciprocating engine that is widely used in Light-Sport Aircraft. I expect if chose the first LSA on a Google search they would have an aircraft using a Rotax.

Yes, the searchengine showed that first but I wasnt clear if thats what you meant. Now I understand. Thank you!
 
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cageyjames
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RE: Would MD11 Be Popular If 777 Wasnt Built?

Tue Sep 08, 2015 5:00 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 66):
KLM always seemed happy with their MD-11s considering how long they kept them.

And FX loves theirs too. But two customers does not make a market. Without AA, DL, BA, JL, etc buying them in bulk, it was doomed.
 
SpaceshipDC10
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RE: Would MD11 Be Popular If 777 Wasnt Built?

Tue Sep 08, 2015 5:10 pm

Quoting cageyjames (Reply 71):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 66):
KLM always seemed happy with their MD-11s considering how long they kept them.

And FX loves theirs too. But two customers does not make a market. Without AA, DL, BA, JL, etc buying them in bulk, it was doomed.

KL also had 5 more options, but they never exercised them. BA never ordered the MD-11. The orders for three aircraft plus several more options were inherited from BCal. The three orders were sold to AA allowing it to received the type earlier than planned. JL had ten more on options that could have been converted to MD-12 if it was built.

If I remember well, DL had orders and options for 40 or 50 MD-11s. FX and SR were both among the earliest and largest customers.
 
strfyr51
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Re: RE: Would MD11 Be Popular If 777 Wasnt Built?

Sun Aug 21, 2016 9:15 am

FlyCaledonian wrote:
Quoting LH707330 (Reply 6):The other thing to remember is that there was a recession in the early 90s that hit the 340/MD-11 more so than the 777 that hit the shelves later.
I think that's an important point that gets overlooked. Just off the top of my head: -

* Northwest Airlines had A340s on order - deferred and added used DC-10s then took A330s.
* Continental Airlines had A330s and A340s on order - cancelled; added used DC-10s and then ordered 767s and 777s.
* Air Europe had RR Trent powered MD-11s on order - airline collapsed and order was cancelled.
* TWA had RR Trent A330s on order - deferred and evntually cancelled (as part of A318 order if I recall).

I think the 777 also helped turn airlines off the 747 before the 77W came on the scene. When Boeing offered the 747-500 and 747-600 using 777 technology and airlines didn't like the price. Then in the late 1990s airlines started dropping 747 orders, e.g. BA who cancelled a number of 747-400 orders and took 777-236ERs instead (RR powered because the cancelled 747s were to have had RB211-524s).

Things could have looked very different in the late 1990s: -

* NW operating A340s (and 747-400s) vice A330s.
* CO operating A330s and A340s vice 767s and 777s.
* TW operating A330s vice 747 classics and 767-300s.
* AA still operating MD-11s vice 777s (possibly a very big fleet given their 43 777-223ERs).
* DL still operating MD-11s vice 777s (Had 15 at the peak, but could have been 20+).

It would have been interesting to see what UA did regarding replacing the DC-10 (That was what the 777 was partly for).

BA might well have gone for A340s to replace the LGW DC-10s (as well as give it something between the 767-336ER and 747-436).

SQ might have followed the CX route and gone straight for A330s as a regional aircraft (The 777 replaced the A310 on a lot of routes). I also wonder if there was no 777-300 whether we could have seen CX and SQ order 747-400Ds for use on regional Asian flights.


United went into negotiations for both the MD11 and the B777 MDC wasn't sure of the MD12 So Boeing offered a price on the B777 the B747 and a killer price for the Pair if ordered together which united did. And? we got input into what the airplane came to be. But then again? United and Boeing came from the same Stable.
And they'll always be in Cahoots in some manner
 
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OA940
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Re: Would MD11 Be Popular If 777 Wasnt Built?

Sun Aug 21, 2016 10:13 am

I'd say yes, but sooner or later somebody would've built a twinjet with pretty much the capabilities of the 777. So it definitely would've had more orders, but many airlines would've gone for the 332 when that was out. Same goes for the 340. Someone would eventually have built a 777.
A350/CSeries = bae
 
rbavfan
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Re: RE: Would MD11 Be Popular If 777 Wasnt Built?

Sun Aug 21, 2016 12:01 pm

FlyCaledonian wrote:
Quoting LH707330 (Reply 6):The other thing to remember is that there was a recession in the early 90s that hit the 340/MD-11 more so than the 777 that hit the shelves later.
I think that's an important point that gets overlooked. Just off the top of my head: -

* Northwest Airlines had A340s on order - deferred and added used DC-10s then took A330s.
* Continental Airlines had A330s and A340s on order - cancelled; added used DC-10s and then ordered 767s and 777s.
* Air Europe had RR Trent powered MD-11s on order - airline collapsed and order was cancelled.
* TWA had RR Trent A330s on order - deferred and evntually cancelled (as part of A318 order if I recall).

I think the 777 also helped turn airlines off the 747 before the 77W came on the scene. When Boeing offered the 747-500 and 747-600 using 777 technology and airlines didn't like the price. Then in the late 1990s airlines started dropping 747 orders, e.g. BA who cancelled a number of 747-400 orders and took 777-236ERs instead (RR powered because the cancelled 747s were to have had RB211-524s).

Things could have looked very different in the late 1990s: -

* NW operating A340s (and 747-400s) vice A330s.
* CO operating A330s and A340s vice 767s and 777s.
* TW operating A330s vice 747 classics and 767-300s.
* AA still operating MD-11s vice 777s (possibly a very big fleet given their 43 777-223ERs).
* DL still operating MD-11s vice 777s (Had 15 at the peak, but could have been 20+).

It would have been interesting to see what UA did regarding replacing the DC-10 (That was what the 777 was partly for).

BA might well have gone for A340s to replace the LGW DC-10s (as well as give it something between the 767-336ER and 747-436).

SQ might have followed the CX route and gone straight for A330s as a regional aircraft (The 777 replaced the A310 on a lot of routes). I also wonder if there was no 777-300 whether we could have seen CX and SQ order 747-400Ds for use on regional Asian flights.



Delta would not have been flying them. They could not meet the spec & they had other problems. Delta was vocally unhappy with them. They were replaced faster than any other Delta aircraft. I see the A340 as its replacement at Delta if 777 was not built.
 
rbavfan
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Re: RE: Would MD11 Be Popular If 777 Wasnt Built?

Sun Aug 21, 2016 12:05 pm

DocLightning wrote:
First of all, "If the 777 hadn't been built" is a bit of nonsense. At some point, a widebody twin with capabilities like the 777 would have been built. Now, note that the MD-11 was introduced in 1989 or 1990 and the 772 was introduced in 1997, so there was a significant lag between the two models. In spite of that, the MD-11 sold poorly because it was a sub-par aircraft. Its fuel burn was above promised and thus its range was below promised. There are many things McD could have done to make it work, but they didn't and the MD-11 really killed the company. In fact, SQ canceled theirs because they didn't meet performance guarantees and took the A340 instead.

It's a pity because the MD-11 is such a gorgeous aircraft, but unfortunately looks don't win in this game (the A320 proves that  &nbsp , performance and economics do.


It may be pretty IYO but it has had balance issues from the beginning, especially with winds during landing. Take a look at the Tokyo fedX crash and see why. Also look t the fact that FedX could have taken more for convert but chose more MD10 conversions instead.
 
rbavfan
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Re: RE: Would MD11 Be Popular If 777 Wasnt Built?

Sun Aug 21, 2016 12:07 pm

777way wrote:
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 13):First of all, "If the 777 hadn't been built" is a bit of nonsense. At some point, a widebody twin with capabilities like the 777 would have been built. Now, note that the MD-11 was introduced in 1989 or 1990 and the 772 was introduced in 1997,
Well Airbus didnt have any plans for such but MD sure did think of it, also the 772 first flew in 94/95.


First flew and in service are 2 different things. Look at the 787.
 
B-HOP
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Re: Would MD11 Be Popular If 777 Wasnt Built?

Sun Aug 21, 2016 4:36 pm

If 777 weren't built?Someone, somehow would built a 300+ seats widebody that could take LD3 side by side, whilst A330/340 would benefit more, with A330 still a regional widebody 6-7 hours range and A340 in its current form, you look at several DC-10 operators that ended up with A330/340 or combination of both, so I doubt without 777 would have much difference for MD-11, really 777 started to explode after 1997 when ER came into scene, by then MD-11 is a dead horse (at least as passenger aircraft).

ex DC-10 operator
PR-Got A330/340, to replace both A300, 747-200 and DC-10, also got A320/321, leased from World for a short time for YVR, didn't buy new ones
MH-Got A330, knew A340 won't meet their need, waited for 777,leased from World for a short time for YVR, didn't buy new ones from MCd.
TG-Got 330, already had MD-11 before A340 being introduced, didn't take more than 4, sold fairly early on, got 340-5/600 instead.
CX-Bought both A330/340, publicly turned down MD-11 on an Flight international article as it can't do 2 hour shuttle flights economically, 2 fleets suitable to serve from 90 mins Taipei to 15 hours Toronto.
CI-Bought MD-11, but being replaced by both A330/340 (and also replaced A300-600R).
BR-Bought 3 pax MD-11, 9 Cargo ones, replaced by A330 and 747-400BDSF.
KE-Had 5 and didn't went for more, replaced by 777 and A330.
Europe

UTA/IB/TAP/SN all had DC-10/Tristar buy given the mess MD-11 is in, they all went for A340.

So with A330/340 suitable from 500nm/5500nm journeys, the flexibility wins that compare to MD-11.

Also, the different improvement pack over time makes everything complicated and if the operators weren't compensated, they won't be back, simple as that, it is business ethics.

Another problem for MD is their aircrafts weren't in a complete family, MD-11 is on its own, compare to Boeing which have something for everyone.
If MD wake up early enough, they would have develop a twin around the size of A330-200 in mid 90's to complement MD-11, the fuselage diameter were fine, 767 too narrow, A310 too small (and heavy), A300-600R (wing too small for transatlantic), use whatever improvement learnt from MD-11 and use that, the cockpit automation were even better than 747-400, use that, no need for a new cockpit and shorten conversion time, make a 12000km verison with mid landing gear and a 8000km without, to suit two markets, keep MD-11 for cargo, it is not worth another stretch without a new wing. Even if this came out by 2000, it should enough to win at least order from BR (took A330), KL (took A330), AY (Took A330/340) maybe CI to replace A300-600R plus possible early replacement for 767, but MCd has no money in its bank........

Kev
Live life to max!!!
 
commavia
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Re: Would MD11 Be Popular If 777 Wasnt Built?

Sun Aug 21, 2016 4:56 pm

Ultimately, I think the bigger question isn't about how the MD-11 would have done had the 777 not been introduced, but frankly, how it would have done if it had lived up to its own initial design/performance promises. The MD-11's initial shortfalls and operational challenges are well known and have already been discussed, and it's also true that McDonnell Douglas arguably did ultimately get the MD-11s where they needed to be, but of course by that time it was simply too late as multiple large, high-profile customers like AA and Delta had already made up their minds and moved on. And as said, once Boeing did the 777 and then Airbus eventually got the A330 going, the obvious fuel and maintenance benefits of 2 engines versus 3 meant the end for the MD-11 (at least for passenger carriers) - it was only a matter of time.
 
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DocLightning
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Re: Would MD11 Be Popular If 777 Wasnt Built?

Mon Aug 22, 2016 12:01 am

The 777 was really a master stroke by Boeing. Maybe not as iconic as the 747, maybe not as revolutionary, maybe not as beautiful...

But look at what that plane did to the industry. It was basically the death of any airplane that wasn't a twin. The A340 and 747 are the only non-twins being built and probably not for very much longer.
-Doc Lightning-

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commavia
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Re: Would MD11 Be Popular If 777 Wasnt Built?

Mon Aug 22, 2016 12:35 am

DocLightning wrote:
The 777 was really a master stroke by Boeing. Maybe not as iconic as the 747, maybe not as revolutionary, maybe not as beautiful...

But look at what that plane did to the industry. It was basically the death of any airplane that wasn't a twin. The A340 and 747 are the only non-twins being built and probably not for very much longer.


I think I may disagree with your first point, but only because I so strongly agree with your second. In time, I think the 777 may well come to be seen as just as revolutionary as the 747 - for exactly the reason you mention - because it utterly transformed the economics and network possibilities of long-haul commercial aviation. The 777 airframe has been progressively improved and optimized to fly further, more economically, than any other airplane in history. As you accurately say, it essentially reset airlines' expectations for the financial potential of longhaul widebodies, thus making it virtually impossible for airlines to compete with anything other than twinjets. Similar but unlike the 767 and A300/A310 before it, the transformative effect of the 777 has been so complete that whereas 30-40 years ago virtually all longhaul widebodies had 3 or 4 engines, today only a tiny fraction do. A masterstroke, indeed.
 
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DocLightning
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Re: Would MD11 Be Popular If 777 Wasnt Built?

Mon Aug 22, 2016 2:37 am

commavia wrote:
In time, I think the 777 may well come to be seen as just as revolutionary as the 747 - for exactly the reason you mention - because it utterly transformed the economics and network possibilities of long-haul commercial aviation. The 777 airframe has been progressively improved and optimized to fly further, more economically, than any other airplane in history. As you accurately say, it essentially reset airlines' expectations for the financial potential of longhaul widebodies, thus making it virtually impossible for airlines to compete with anything other than twinjets. Similar but unlike the 767 and A300/A310 before it, the transformative effect of the 777 has been so complete that whereas 30-40 years ago virtually all longhaul widebodies had 3 or 4 engines, today only a tiny fraction do. A masterstroke, indeed.


The 777 was not the first widebody. It was not the first plane that could fly 10-14 hours without stopping. Air travel in 2005 was not dramatically different from air travel in 1995 in the way that it changed between 1965 and 1975. The 777 simply took the qualities of the 747 and put them into a twin-engine platform. By today's standards, that platform is massively overbuilt for its initial design and the A330 can offer similar performance with a lighter platform.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
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ordell
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Re: Would MD11 Be Popular If 777 Wasnt Built?

Mon Aug 22, 2016 5:42 am

I think that's the real question. Had MD delivered on the MD-11 and it was a success, would MD have survived long enough to do a MD-12, a new design rather than a revamped DC-10?
 
commavia
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Re: Would MD11 Be Popular If 777 Wasnt Built?

Mon Aug 22, 2016 5:47 am

ordell wrote:
I think that's the real question. Had MD delivered on the MD-11 and it was a success, would MD have survived long enough to do a MD-12, a new design rather than a revamped DC-10?


Personally, I think it's unlikely. At that time, the MD-11 wasn't the only one of MD's troubles. The sales of their DC-9 line (MD-80/MD-90) were already slowing, the development cost of the "new" MD-95 were picking up, and the military side (STL) had just been downselected out of the pretty much do-or-die JSF competition - to, among others, Boeing, ironically. So I don't think even a flawless EIS for the MD-11 would necessarily have saved them. With the MD-11 not initially living up to its promises, coupled with Boeing and Airbus then rapidly introducing similarly-sized twin jets, the writing was on the wall.
 
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DocLightning
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Re: Would MD11 Be Popular If 777 Wasnt Built?

Mon Aug 22, 2016 6:23 am

commavia wrote:

Personally, I think it's unlikely. At that time, the MD-11 wasn't the only one of MD's troubles. The sales of their DC-9 line (MD-80/MD-90) were already slowing, the development cost of the "new" MD-95 were picking up


That and the DC-9 platform, while a great choice for the 1960s, was not a good choice for the 1980s and beyond. The wing is a scaled-down version of the DC-8 wing with a vortilon where the inboard pylon would have been. Thus, the wing is not supercritical. In addition, the rear-mounting of the engines was great when airlines were considering service to semiprepared airfields where FOD was an issue, but by the 1980s, that was a non-issue. Instead, it just led to increased structural weight and maintenance headaches with the engines high in air while the aircraft was at the gate.

With Airbus introducing the A320 the writing really was on the wall for the DC-9 family.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
strfyr51
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Re: RE: Would MD11 Be Popular If 777 Wasnt Built?

Mon Aug 22, 2016 7:13 am

cathay747 wrote:
Many good/valid points made above, and I especially like this one:

Quoting FlyCaledonian (Reply 11):It would have been interesting to see what UA did regarding replacing the DC-10 (That was what the 777 was partly for).
...indeed...UA could have been the wild-card in the success of the MD-11,
and without the 777, I could easily have seen UA use the MD-11 to replace
their entire DC-10 fleet.

But one thing not really touched on in all the above comments is...with no
777, not only do I think that the MD-11 would have sold better, there also
would have been no 764ER! That airplane was designed essentially as a
replacement for the DC-10, and as we all know sold very poorly...only CO
& DL, who did in fact use it as a DC-10 replacement...and with no 777 or
764ER we likely would have seen another MD-11 customer in the form of
KQ, who had decided on the 764ER but then changed their mind to the 777.

All delightful speculation, but of course as pointed out above, the MD-11's
performance shortfalls, at least initially, would have been a huge factor...
however, with greater orders, McD might have been able to get the finance
needed to improve it to a much greater degree.


I think the Sioux City Crash might have Tainted UAL's opinion of the MD11, The wing needed more work and the cables needed removal to an all Fly by wire. The B777 was not mch more than a DC-10 in new Clothes with larger engines and only 2 of them at that. Something MD might have eventually done had they NOT been "gobbled up" by Boeing (Which I still believe was to have the F15 and MDC Military)
 
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keesje
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Re: Would MD11 Be Popular If 777 Wasnt Built?

Mon Aug 22, 2016 9:08 am

With the planned stretch and new engines the MD11 family would have had an extremely capable payload- range capability and no ETOPS restrictions. It's way lighter than the 777s, even with three engines and complicated tail.. I liked the big screens and spacey cockpit (great jump seat).

Image

IMO a good optimized trijet could fill the VLA gap under the A380, theoretically it looks good.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
ACATROYAL
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Re: Would MD11 Be Popular If 777 Wasnt Built?

Mon Aug 22, 2016 10:23 am

Just curious what was the longest route any airline flew the MD-11?
 
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Stitch
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Re: Would MD11 Be Popular If 777 Wasnt Built?

Mon Aug 22, 2016 5:48 pm

keesje wrote:
With the planned stretch and new engines the MD11 family would have had an extremely capable payload- range capability and no ETOPS restrictions. It's way lighter than the 777s, even with three engines and complicated tail.


Actually the MD-XX family was a fairly heavier frame than the long-range 777 family, lifted less payload and could not fly as far based on the numbers McD published in their spec sheets. Which likely was why it never went forward.
 
JeremyB
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Re: Would MD11 Be Popular If 777 Wasnt Built?

Mon Aug 22, 2016 6:34 pm

ACATROYAL wrote:
Just curious what was the longest route any airline flew the MD-11?


Delta for sure pushed their MD-11's to the limit, with JFK-NRT, ATL-NRT but LAX-HKG would be the longest non-stop route ever flown with the MD-11.
 
Kilopond
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Re: RE: Would MD11 Be Popular If 777 Wasnt Built?

Mon Aug 22, 2016 8:21 pm

UA444 wrote:
Undoubtedly there would be far more MD-11s built if there wasn't the 777.


Maybe a few dozens more, at best. The dramatic series of DC-10 accidents had completely destroyed the reputation of McDonnell-Douglas. At that time, American Airlines were so ashamed to have that type in their fleet, that they removed the type designation from the liveries and kept their DC-10s just as "luxury liners". The proverb "If it's not Boeing, I'm not going" stems from that time.
 
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keesje
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Re: Would MD11 Be Popular If 777 Wasnt Built?

Mon Aug 22, 2016 8:53 pm

Stitch wrote:
keesje wrote:
With the planned stretch and new engines the MD11 family would have had an extremely capable payload- range capability and no ETOPS restrictions. It's way lighter than the 777s, even with three engines and complicated tail.


Actually the MD-XX family was a fairly heavier frame than the long-range 777 family, lifted less payload and could not fly as far based on the numbers McD published in their spec sheets. Which likely was why it never went forward.


The MD11 weighs less than the 777-200. I would be interested in payload. I remember they were good for cargo.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
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SEPilot
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Re: RE: Would MD11 Be Popular If 777 Wasnt Built?

Mon Aug 22, 2016 9:32 pm

FlyCaledonian wrote:
Quoting SEPilot (Reply 44):As to the main question, if Boeing had not built the 777 I do think the main beneficiary would have been the A340; it was clearly superior to the MD-11 and would have trounced it just like the 77W later trounced the A346. But Boeing would have done something else, like build the 777. They would not have left the gap between the 767 and 747 unfilled.
But Boeing did leave the gap unfilled in the past, which is why the L1011 and DC-10 came along. For quite a while in the late 1980s Boeing was offering 767 derivatives. If they'd produced one that got enough airline interest they would have gone with that, and there would have been no 777 (at least in the early 1990s). Remember, the 747SP only came about once Lockheed and Douglas started developing their products from being transcontinental planes to intercontinental ones and Boeing wanted to offer something smaller than the 747-200B.

The 747SP was built because PA wanted more range than the 741/2 offered. At that point the only way Boeing could get it was by reducing weight, which they did by shortening the fuselage. It was not that anyone wanted a lower capacity 747. Later, with improved engines, they were able to get the range and keep the original weight, and hence the 744 offered greater capacity than the 741/2 AND greater range than the 747SP. Hence the dustbin treatment for the SP once the 744 appeared.

There is an excellent book about the development of the 777 written by one of the engineers involved. He started by saying that Boeing was looking in the 80's for a new project, and went and talked to all the airlines. Most of them said that they wanted something bigger than the 767 but smaller than the 747. Eventually Boeing management realized that what they really wanted was something bigger than the 767 and smaller than the 777.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
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SEPilot
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Re: Would MD11 Be Popular If 777 Wasnt Built?

Mon Aug 22, 2016 9:48 pm

The MD-11 would have only been successful had MD done it right by putting a new wing on it. Just about all of its problems were related to the inadequate wing; the performance shortfall, the treacherous handling on landing, and the dangerous inflight instability (which caused one notorious incident). By trying to use an undersized wing MD was forced to do things no other airliner did, like move the CG envelope rearward so as to reduce drag (less downforce by the horizontal stabilizer, allowing it to be smaller, but also less stability); approach speeds were higher due to the higher wingloading, and approach stability was also much less because of the aft CG. In spite of these tricks, though, the efficiency was still lower than the A340, and later, the 777, and so it was not well received. I am convinced that had more been built there would have been more accidents, and since the DC-10 had already given MD a huge black eye a few well-publicized MD-11 accidents would have been a PR nightmare and would have finished MD for good.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
blacksoviet
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Re: Would MD11 Be Popular If 777 Wasnt Built?

Mon Aug 22, 2016 11:18 pm

Which versions of the A340 are still being built?
 
global2
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Re: RE: Would MD11 Be Popular If 777 Wasnt Built?

Tue Aug 23, 2016 12:15 am

[Quoting Flyingsottsman (Reply 56):Finnair didn't seem to have them for long,
Well it depends on what you consider as long. AY had them between 1990 and 2010 for passengers or 2011 for the freighters.

I got to fly on an AY MD-11 in J around 2006 or 2007 and really loved it--it felt so spacious with large windows and nearly vertical side walls. As a passenger that chooses the window, I found it to be superior to the A330/A340 with their small windows and slanted walls with the pillar in front of my face.
 
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Stitch
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Re: Would MD11 Be Popular If 777 Wasnt Built?

Tue Aug 23, 2016 4:04 am

keesje wrote:
The MD11 weighs less than the 777-200. I would be interested in payload. I remember they were good for cargo.


The MD-11 does, but the improved model (MD-XX) would have been significantly heavier - heavier than the 777.

As for cargo, the MD-XX Freighters actually had a lower payload weight than the MD-11 freighter. They carried more payload volume thanks to their larger size.
 
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Roadcruiser1
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Re: Would MD11 Be Popular If 777 Wasnt Built?

Tue Aug 23, 2016 4:36 pm

Nope not really. If the Boeing 777 was never built then when McDonnell Douglas got purchased by Boeing it would have been turned into a twin jet.
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... win-22513/
Even if McDonnell Douglas was not purchased by Boeing if they did not have the financial issues that they did have they would have built a Boeing 777 version of the McDonnell Douglas MD-11.
http://md-eleven.net/MD11-MD12-undeveloped-models
Roadcruiser1
 
747400sp
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Re: RE: Would MD11 Be Popular If 777 Wasnt Built?

Wed Aug 24, 2016 1:30 pm

bmacleod wrote:
Definitely McDonnell would be going ahead with a stretched MD-11, the MD-XX.

http://d121tcdkpp02p4.cloudfront.net/cl ... /md-xx.jpg[Edited 2015-09-06 04:47:18]





I wish MD did go ahead and lunch the MD-XX, because there would have been 3 generation the trijet, and Fed Ex would have had more years with the MD trijet, instead of those triple 7s that just do not feel Fed Ex like.
Also the Long Beach plant mite have still been open today.

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