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enilria
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DL Says IAM Fighting Its Efforts Against ME3

Fri Sep 04, 2015 1:01 am

This seems more risky than most of their other efforts against the ME? Agree/Disagree?

The Machinists Union (IAM) continues to oppose Delta on key issues that affect jobs at U.S. airlines.

This week the IAM issued a call to action for its 600,000 members to support a full reauthorization of the U.S. Export-Import Bank.

The Machinists union claims the Bank’s loan guarantees “...create U.S. jobs by helping foreign companies buy American-made products, like Boeing aircraft and John Deere tractors.”

Meanwhile, the Machinists Union remains silent and at odds with seven airline labor groups who are working alongside American, Delta and United in the Partnership for Open & Fair Skies to advocate for U.S. airline jobs and fair competition with foreign airlines. The coalition has garnered strong support from members of Congress, community leaders and mayors across the nation in urging the U.S. government to address the massive subsidies state-owned Gulf airlines receive that tilt the competitive playing field and violate Open Skies agreements.


http://news.delta.com/iam-opposes-delta-issues-harm-us-aviation-jobs
 
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thekorean
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RE: DL Says IAM Fighting Its Efforts Against ME3

Fri Sep 04, 2015 1:03 am

Unions vs Unions is always a good entertaining fun.

Two ideologically similar group fighting each other for their self interest.
 
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enilria
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RE: DL Says IAM Fighting Its Efforts Against ME3

Fri Sep 04, 2015 1:07 am

Quoting thekorean (Reply 1):
Unions vs Unions is always a good entertaining fun.

This is airline vs. union fighting over something unrelated to pay and work rules. IMHO, it is best to not stir up things with a union over things that are not contract related, but we will see...
 
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chrisnh
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RE: DL Says IAM Fighting Its Efforts Against ME3

Fri Sep 04, 2015 1:33 am

I think the only thing left for Delta to do is burst into tears and tell everyone that it's all just a 'Vast Right-Wing Conspiracy.'
 
MaverickM11
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RE: DL Says IAM Fighting Its Efforts Against ME3

Fri Sep 04, 2015 1:39 am

I still don't think DL has any idea what it wants out of this situation. And I guarantee it won't get it.
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lightsaber
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RE: DL Says IAM Fighting Its Efforts Against ME3

Fri Sep 04, 2015 1:44 am

IAM is facing layoffs unless import export renews. They already had layoffs at Boeing satellite (IAM?).

Lightsaber
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enilria
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RE: DL Says IAM Fighting Its Efforts Against ME3

Fri Sep 04, 2015 2:55 am

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 4):

I still don't think DL has any idea what it wants out of this situation. And I guarantee it won't get it.

They want a freeze and no more 5th freedom for EK (but theirs unaffected).

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 5):

IAM is facing layoffs unless import export renews. They already had layoffs at Boeing satellite (IAM?).

IAM is going to support Boeing I think. Looking at their membership, it appears airlines are the minority. Is that correct? If so, why would they go against the bulk of their members?
 
n7371f
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RE: DL Says IAM Fighting Its Efforts Against ME3

Fri Sep 04, 2015 2:56 am

Classic Richard. Picking fights.
 
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northwestEWR
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RE: DL Says IAM Fighting Its Efforts Against ME3

Fri Sep 04, 2015 3:01 am

Quoting n7371f (Reply 7):
Classic Richard. Picking fights.

Yeah.......... not. Richard isn't even mentioned in the article. I doubt he's wasting his time on petty union arguments. That doesn't sound like the Richard Anderson that I know.

Obviously the IAM is going to support further sales of aircraft to the ME3. That's jobs for them. It just so happens they also represent airline mechanics (not at Delta).
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sxf24
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RE: DL Says IAM Fighting Its Efforts Against ME3

Fri Sep 04, 2015 3:03 am

Quoting northwestEWR (Reply 8):
Yeah.......... not. Richard isn't even mentioned in the article. I doubt he's wasting his time on petty union arguments. That doesn't sound like the Richard Anderson that I know.

The Ex-Im and ME3 battles are being driven entirely by Richard. No other Delta exec I've talked to supports either effort.
 
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mayor
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RE: DL Says IAM Fighting Its Efforts Against ME3

Fri Sep 04, 2015 3:35 am

Quoting enilria (Reply 2):
IMHO, it is best to not stir up things with a union over things that are not contract related, but we will see...

The IAM has NO contract with DL and currently they are under investigation by the DOJ regarding possible voting fraud in the matter of forged "A" cards.

Quoting n7371f (Reply 7):
Classic Richard. Picking fights.

Sounds more, to me, like it's the IAM picking fights, although they've got more to worry about than this (see above).
They will soon try their SECOND representational campaign with the DL ramp workers, which failed the first time, after the merger.
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
 
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SLCUT2777
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RE: DL Says IAM Fighting Its Efforts Against ME3

Fri Sep 04, 2015 3:36 am

Quoting enilria (Reply 6):
IAM is going to support Boeing I think. Looking at their membership, it appears airlines are the minority. Is that correct? If so, why would they go against the bulk of their members?

Like any union, the IAM believes in a state owned (Crown in Canada), and they have long fought for this sort of business model in North America. Their thinking is that the Government more than investors will go along with their demands.
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n7371f
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RE: DL Says IAM Fighting Its Efforts Against ME3

Fri Sep 04, 2015 5:02 am

Quoting northwestEWR (Reply 8):
Yeah.......... not. Richard isn't even mentioned in the article.

Someone doesn't need to be mentioned in an article to be involved. But I won't attempt to belittle you like your post.
 
IndianicWorld
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RE: DL Says IAM Fighting Its Efforts Against ME3

Fri Sep 04, 2015 5:56 am

This whole thing is becoming a joke.

Here's one of the largest airlines in the world complaining about competition. Get off it really.

The ME3 is eating away at the US3's market not because of govt support but because of pure laziness by the US carriers to actually put forward a product people want to use.

I was shocked to see that AA are a buy on board operation on their domestic network for anything other than a drink. On a 4+ hour flight from LAX-ORD to get that kind of service is enough to make one laugh out loud at a "premium" carrier.

Might be best they focused on themselves and what they are offering other than waging battles with carriers that for the most part are actually a mute point for them.
 
alatar144
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RE: DL Says IAM Fighting Its Efforts Against ME3

Fri Sep 04, 2015 7:13 am

Quoting IndianicWorld (Reply 13):
I was shocked to see that AA are a buy on board operation on their domestic network for anything other than a drink. On a 4+ hour flight from LAX-ORD to get that kind of service is enough to make one laugh out loud at a "premium" carrier.

While I don't necessarily disagree with you, we do have to admit that - as Australians - we probably have the highest standard regular domestic service of anywhere in the world. The increasingly premium nature of our two 'premium' carriers is reaching heights that, IMO, are slightly absurd and puts even some other airlines international service to shame. Our good fortune in this arena could definitely colour our view of what is 'premium' for the American market.
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IndianicWorld
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RE: DL Says IAM Fighting Its Efforts Against ME3

Fri Sep 04, 2015 7:22 am

Quoting alatar144 (Reply 14):
While I don't necessarily disagree with you, we do have to admit that - as Australians - we probably have the highest standard regular domestic service of anywhere in the world. The increasingly premium nature of our two 'premium' carriers is reaching heights that, IMO, are slightly absurd and puts even some other airlines international service to shame. Our good fortune in this arena could definitely colour our view of what is 'premium' for the American market.

What differentiates the ULCC's from the premium though at the end of the day though? In this case, it's not much different in the greater scheme of things in Y. They still charge a lot more but you get nothing much in return for doing so.

Flying one of the US3 is hardly what anyone could call an amazing experience and to cry that the competition are going to somehow ruin jobs and any other excuse is comical at best.
 
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thekorean
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RE: DL Says IAM Fighting Its Efforts Against ME3

Fri Sep 04, 2015 7:54 am

Quoting IndianicWorld (Reply 13):

Americans don't really want premium on board free drinks and snacks for short haul flights if it meant extra cost.
 
IndianicWorld
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RE: DL Says IAM Fighting Its Efforts Against ME3

Fri Sep 04, 2015 9:00 am

Quoting thekorean (Reply 16):
Americans don't really want premium on board free drinks and snacks for short haul flights if it meant extra cost.

The fact is though that the prices are still usually far higher on the US3 than a ULCC flight, so they are paying more to fly them.

They may well not want to pay extra cost but they are anyway and getting nothing of any value for it.
 
billreid
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RE: DL Says IAM Fighting Its Efforts Against ME3

Fri Sep 04, 2015 9:47 am

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 4):
I still don't think DL has any idea what it wants out of this situation. And I guarantee it won't get it.

How can you gaurentee it won't get it if we don't know what it is? I really think Anderson is bored and likes kicking up sh*t. Personally I don't think any true pro-American person can support reducing Boeing sales. A loss of the IM bank makes competition hard for Boeing because funding is still supplied for AB.

The question needs to be brought forward in the US election. Do the Republicans LIKE/WANT U.S.A. Boeing job losses?

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 5):
IAM is facing layoffs unless import export renews. They already had layoffs at Boeing satellite (IAM?).

True and so-sad!

Quoting thekorean (Reply 16):
Americans don't really want premium on board free drinks and snacks for short haul flights if it meant extra cost.

Actually not true. Americans already pay for this on the flights they just don't get the product.
Ryanair or Easyjet charge so much less for flights than WN its almost funny. Where in the USA can I get a flight for $9.99. Please let me know.
Some people don't get it. Business is about making MONEY!
 
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enilria
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RE: DL Says IAM Fighting Its Efforts Against ME3

Fri Sep 04, 2015 11:07 am

Quoting northwestEWR (Reply 8):
Yeah.......... not. Richard isn't even mentioned in the article.

It's not an article. It's a DL press release. How can it not be from the CEO?

Quoting northwestEWR (Reply 8):
It just so happens they also represent airline mechanics (not at Delta).

#1 They have and will again attempt to unionize DL. Why irritate them?
#2 It's the US3 and if the IAM pressure AA/UA to halt their participation because of this war that weakens Fair Skies a lot.
 
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mayor
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RE: DL Says IAM Fighting Its Efforts Against ME3

Fri Sep 04, 2015 4:02 pm

Quoting enilria (Reply 19):

#1 They have and will again attempt to unionize DL. Why irritate th

As I mentioned, they've already, more or less, failed with trying to unionize the flight attendants. They HAVE failed, once before, to unionize most of the other work groups.......think they can succeed this time, considering all the things the employees have received from the company, since then.....i.e. profit sharing, pay raises, improvements in benefits, etc.?
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
 
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mayor
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RE: DL Says IAM Fighting Its Efforts Against ME3

Fri Sep 04, 2015 4:07 pm

Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
This seems more risky than most of their other efforts against the ME? Agree/Disagree?

Why risky when the IAM represents NO workers at DL?
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
 
mpdpilot
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RE: DL Says IAM Fighting Its Efforts Against ME3

Fri Sep 04, 2015 4:20 pm

Quoting IndianicWorld (Reply 17):
The fact is though that the prices are still usually far higher on the US3 than a ULCC flight, so they are paying more to fly them.

They may well not want to pay the extra cost, but they are anyway and getting nothing of any value for it.

I disagree, every time I pay extra to fly Delta over Frontier or Spirit and am getting plenty of values.

First, I don't have to pay extra for anything (I rarely check a bag).

Second, I get where I am going on time (Delta's on-time and completion rates are significantly better).

When a flight gets cancelled I am often rebooked same day (I have had people flying spirit have had to drive because they were rebooked 3 days out for a 3 day trip due to only having 1-2 flights per day).

I do get free snacks and free drinks.

I get a free mobile boarding pass that allows me to go right to security (don't have a printer at home)

On many but not all, I also get free content on PTVs.

Now I know all of that and gladly pay the premium for it. Not everyone does but to say there is no value in flying DL over the ULCCs is not entirely true. Maybe no value for you, but there is value.
One mile of highway gets you one mile, one mile of runway gets you anywhere.
 
ytz
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RE: DL Says IAM Fighting Its Efforts Against ME3

Fri Sep 04, 2015 5:39 pm

Quoting mpdpilot (Reply 22):

This is a rather low bar by international standards.

1) Most full-service airlines (globally speaking) don't charge for first bag domestically.
2) Most full-service airlines don't charge for IFE-PTV content, like they do on Delta.
3) On-time performance is generally not a huge issue with most carriers. Discount or full-service. At best we're talking about a few minutes either way. I can't think of a single carrier where on-time performance is so poor that the public is loathe to travel with them.
4) Mobile boarding pass is nothing special. In fact, many discount carriers now do this near-exclusively and will actually charge you for a paper pass.

In sum, the contention that US legacy carriers provide sub-par value for money holds true. Most remarkable in the North American context is that LCCs often provide a better hard product than the legacies (B6 for example). The only real value these days with North American (including AC in all this) legacies, are their FFPs. And those are being rapidly devalued too.
 
peanuts
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RE: DL Says IAM Fighting Its Efforts Against ME3

Fri Sep 04, 2015 6:03 pm

Some of you are just too easily swooned by certain big corporate actions.

This Delta "news" release is deliberate. Yes, the CEO approves of this message.
Yes, Delta is still actively trying to put unions in a bad light wherever it can. Ideally, they don't want any of it around.
If Delta can raise employee awareness of their IAM hate, and open up SkySpa's at select, pro-union heavy locations to leverage that stance, all the power to them.

Meanwhile, the perfect storm is brewing. Pay attention.
 
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NWAESC
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RE: DL Says IAM Fighting Its Efforts Against ME3

Fri Sep 04, 2015 6:05 pm

^ Nailed it^

...

...
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
 
MSPNWA
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RE: DL Says IAM Fighting Its Efforts Against ME3

Fri Sep 04, 2015 6:09 pm

Quoting peanuts (Reply 24):
This Delta "news" release is deliberate. Yes, the CEO approves of this message.
Yes, Delta is still actively trying to put unions in a bad light wherever it can. Ideally, they don't want any of it around.
If Delta can raise employee awareness of their IAM hate, and open up SkySpa's at select, pro-union heavy locations to leverage that stance, all the power to them.

  

This is just an anti-union hack piece. DL will do anything to sway employees against joining the IAM.
 
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mayor
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RE: DL Says IAM Fighting Its Efforts Against ME3

Fri Sep 04, 2015 7:55 pm

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 26):
This is just an anti-union hack piece. DL will do anything to sway employees against joining the IAM.

DL doesn't have to do a damn thing to sway the employees against the IAM. The IAM is doing a pretty good job of shooting themselves in the foot.
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
 
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northwestEWR
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RE: DL Says IAM Fighting Its Efforts Against ME3

Fri Sep 04, 2015 8:39 pm

Quoting mayor (Reply 27):
DL doesn't have to do a damn thing to sway the employees against the IAM. The IAM is doing a pretty good job of shooting themselves in the foot.

There's no reason for Delta employees to join the IAM. The company treats us fairly and continues to increase the perks for employees.

Anyone remember the IAM FA try? It was a total failure and that's not changing going forward as the employee groups get less senior.
Northwest Airlines - Now You're Flying Smart
 
deltal1011man
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RE: DL Says IAM Fighting Its Efforts Against ME3

Fri Sep 04, 2015 8:50 pm

Quoting northwestEWR (Reply 8):

Obviously the IAM is going to support further sales of aircraft to the ME3. That's jobs for them. It just so happens they also represent airline mechanics (not at Delta).

politics
Boeing employees pay more of the bills than airline employees do for the IAM. Yet another reason why I am not a fan of bit trade unions and feel in-house unions or in-craft unions (think AMFA) have a better grasp of what its members want.

Quoting northwestEWR (Reply 8):

Yeah.......... not. Richard isn't even mentioned in the article. I doubt he's wasting his time on petty union arguments. That doesn't sound like the Richard Anderson that I know.

Its a DL press release (and you might wanna check out this weeks right from Richard....)

and you don't pay attention to Anderson if you don't think this is like him. He (and most management people all over the world) are always going to try to paint a bad picture of a union actively trying to get on property.

management 101.

Quoting enilria (Reply 19):

#1 They have and will again attempt to unionize DL. Why irritate them?

Trying to make the DL employees think the IAM (or insert union here) is against them would, in theory, make them vote to stay away from said union.

Quoting mayor (Reply 20):
As I mentioned, they've already, more or less, failed with trying to unionize the flight attendants. They HAVE failed, once before, to unionize most of the other work groups.......think they can succeed this time, considering all the things the employees have received from the company, since then.....i.e. profit sharing, pay raises, improvements in benefits, etc.?

increasing Ready reserve from 60/40 to 50/50
outsourcing stations while the company is making billions........

try not to be so biased mayor....  
 
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enilria
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RE: DL Says IAM Fighting Its Efforts Against ME3

Fri Sep 04, 2015 9:35 pm

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 29):
Quoting enilria (Reply 19):

#1 They have and will again attempt to unionize DL. Why irritate them?

Trying to make the DL employees think the IAM (or insert union here) is against them would, in theory, make them vote to stay away from said union.

Even so, not sure how pissing off AA and UA's unions is good for Fair Skies. The IAM had said nothing on Fair Skies, it's not like they were publicly against it.
 
strfyr51
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RE: DL Says IAM Fighting Its Efforts Against ME3

Fri Sep 04, 2015 9:45 pm

the IAM is the dominant Union at Boeing so it stands to reason they side with Boeing.
Delta is Non Union for the most part, American is TWU and United is Teamster and IAM mixed as the dominant unions
.
 
BravoOne
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RE: DL Says IAM Fighting Its Efforts Against ME3

Fri Sep 04, 2015 11:43 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 5):

IAM is facing layoffs unless import export renews. They already

I suspect that the cancellations are starting to roll in rather quickly. The market and other forces will start putting a damper on the order books. The ANA 747 deal is the latest this week but there are more in the pipeline. Ditto for Airbus
 
mdavies06
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RE: DL Says IAM Fighting Its Efforts Against ME3

Sat Sep 05, 2015 12:06 am

Quoting YTZ (Reply 23):
In sum, the contention that US legacy carriers provide sub-par value for money holds true. Most remarkable in the North American context is that LCCs often provide a better hard product than the legacies (B6 for example). The only real value these days with North American (including AC in all this) legacies, are their FFPs. And those are being rapidly devalued too.
Quoting billreid (Reply 18):
Actually not true. Americans already pay for this on the flights they just don't get the product.
Ryanair or Easyjet charge so much less for flights than WN its almost funny. Where in the USA can I get a flight for $9.99. Please let me know.

Hands on heart, I have to say that airlines such as DL and UA are, as far as short haul is concerned (which I believe is what you are focusing on), competitive with airlines in Europe and Asia because for what the US3 offer on short haul, they actually don't charge more than similar carriers for the same flight duration. For certain markets such as NY-California flights, for the amount US3 provide and the amount they charge, similar airlines in Europe and Asia will provide more but will also charge more. Try pricing a flight on LAX-NYC and another say from NRT-SIN (both 6 hours in duration) and see which comes out better value.
 
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jetjack74
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RE: DL Says IAM Fighting Its Efforts Against ME3

Sat Sep 05, 2015 12:14 am

Quoting northwestEWR (Reply 8):
Yeah.......... not. Richard isn't even mentioned in the article. I doubt he's wasting his time on petty union arguments. That doesn't sound like the Richard Anderson that I know.

You haven't ready his "Delta Daily" remarks where he took a direct swipe at IAM and their fight to renew Ex-Im and then wished us a "Happy Labor Day" weekend. Oddly enough, founded by a Matthew MaGuire in 1882, who was part of the Machinists Union that later grew into the IAMAW. Yeah, he doesn't seem to waste his time
Made from jets!
 
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mayor
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RE: DL Says IAM Fighting Its Efforts Against ME3

Sat Sep 05, 2015 3:59 pm

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 29):

Trying to make the DL employees think the IAM (or insert union here) is against them would, in theory, make them vote to stay away from said union.

Listening to many of the IAM activists on social media, should make an employee do exactly that.
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
 
MaverickM11
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RE: DL Says IAM Fighting Its Efforts Against ME3

Sat Sep 05, 2015 4:09 pm

Quoting thekorean (Reply 16):
Americans don't really want premium on board free drinks and snacks for short haul flights if it meant extra cost.

No one does. That is true around the world.

Quoting enilria (Reply 6):
They want a freeze and no more 5th freedom for EK (but theirs unaffected).

Right but how do you craft a solution that applies to just the ME3 and not the other state backed carriers? China is a hot topic now; why not freeze Chinese carriers too?
I don't take responsibility at all
 
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enilria
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RE: DL Says IAM Fighting Its Efforts Against ME3

Sat Sep 05, 2015 4:12 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 36):
Quoting enilria (Reply 6):
They want a freeze and no more 5th freedom for EK (but theirs unaffected).

Right but how do you craft a solution that applies to just the ME3 and not the other state backed carriers? China is a hot topic now; why not freeze Chinese carriers too?

I think DL's plan is ignore precedent concerns and only attack who they declare are enemies. I don't think they care about the slippery slope as long as only their enemies slide down it.

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