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Mortyman
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Boeing 727 Vs Dc-9/MD80 Series

Fri Sep 04, 2015 6:29 pm

Why was the Boeing 727 so short lived compared to the Dc-9 / MD80 series in passenger version ?

I mean, we still se the MD80 series atleast flying around with airlines. Why not the Boeing 727 ?

I know that it was some noice regulation issues and that it needed hush kits in later years, but was that the only thing ?


Wasn't there anything that could have been done performance wise to make it last in service longer ?

I miss those beauties ...

[Edited 2015-09-04 11:31:24]

[Edited 2015-09-04 11:31:51]
 
BoeingGuy
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RE: Boeing 727 Vs Dc-9/MD80 Series

Fri Sep 04, 2015 6:41 pm

Might have to do with the fact that the 727 is about 15 years older than the MD-80 series. What you say in your first sentence is very incorrect. The 727 was not short-lived. It had a 21 year production span and about a 40 year span in the fleets of mainline airlines.

UA had 727s from 1964-2001. I hardly call that short lived.

727s were built between 1963-1984. MD-80s were built between 1979-1999.

727s were retired from mainline carriers by the early 2000s; DL around 2007. By contrast, PSA and Alaska phased there's out early. FedEx just retired there's this year.

MD-80s have already been retired by US Air, Continental and Northwest. AA is rapidly phasing them out.

MD-80s have had roughly the same lifespan as the 727. Miss them or not, the 727 is a 52 year old design and reached the end of it's service life.

More important to the OP's comment, the 727 most certainly did not have a short lifespan.
 
nikeherc
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RE: Boeing 727 Vs Dc-9/MD80 Series

Fri Sep 04, 2015 6:42 pm

Let's see what it could be...
1. Two engines vs. three
2. Two crew vs. three
3. Boeing sticking with 737 because it was cheaper to make
4. Two engines to retrofit for noise vs. three
5. 757 bigger and more economical
6. McDD not having/willing to spend the money to develop new plane vs. Boeing having assets to do so

Just a few possible reasons. Maybe all wrong, but that's what I can think of quickly.
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AA737-823
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RE: Boeing 727 Vs Dc-9/MD80 Series

Fri Sep 04, 2015 6:45 pm

Quoting Mortyman (Thread starter):
but was that the only thing

Had you considered counting the number of engines?

Or the number of flight deck crew?

Quoting Mortyman (Thread starter):
Wasn't there anything that could have been done performance wise to make it last in service longer ?

Shoot the F/E and shut down the #2 engine...

Quoting Mortyman (Thread starter):
I miss those beauties ...

Me too. But there is limited room for sentiment in the competitive airline business.
 
UA444
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RE: Boeing 727 Vs Dc-9/MD80 Series

Fri Sep 04, 2015 6:48 pm

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 1):


727s were retired from mainline carriers by the early 2000s; DL around 2007. By contrast, PSA and Alaska phased there's out early. FedEx just retired there's this year.


You've got some years off. DL retired the 727 in 2003, as did NW. FX retired it in 2013.
 
nikeherc
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RE: Boeing 727 Vs Dc-9/MD80 Series

Fri Sep 04, 2015 6:50 pm

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 1):
727s were retired from mainline carriers by the early 2000s; DL around 2007.

According to the Delta Museum, the last DL 727 commercial flight was from GSO to ATL in April of 2003. I consider that Delta was a mainline carrier even then. One reason they may have flown 727s a bit longer than some other carriers was that they were the largest operator of 727-200 (ADV) in the world.
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Mortyman
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RE: Boeing 727 Vs Dc-9/MD80 Series

Fri Sep 04, 2015 7:00 pm

Thanx for your answers
 
PSA53
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RE: Boeing 727 Vs Dc-9/MD80 Series

Fri Sep 04, 2015 7:08 pm

There had been different proposals of a 727-300 in a twin jet configuration from a T-tail with on the winged fixed power plants to the standard 727 twin jet.Unfortunately,this plans never got off the table to continue the 727 series when the 757 sealed the aircraft demise.
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UA444
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RE: Boeing 727 Vs Dc-9/MD80 Series

Fri Sep 04, 2015 7:18 pm

Quoting PSA53 (Reply 7):

United at one time really wanted a 727-300.
 
DeltaMD95
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RE: Boeing 727 Vs Dc-9/MD80 Series

Fri Sep 04, 2015 8:41 pm

Quoting nikeherc (Reply 5):

   Delta was late to the 727 party just like they were to the MD80. In both cases they built up large fleets of the most advanced type in the family and operated them for years after their peers.

727: 1972-2003
MD-88: 1987-202X?
Did you know that a Boeing 717-200 is really a McDonnell Douglas MD95-30? ;-)
 
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Richard28
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RE: Boeing 727 Vs Dc-9/MD80 Series

Fri Sep 04, 2015 8:50 pm

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 1):
727s were built between 1963-1984. MD-80s were built between 1979-1999.

the OP also referred to DC9 & MD 80 which took that series as far back as 1965, so a similar start date to the 727
 
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NWAROOSTER
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RE: Boeing 727 Vs Dc-9/MD80 Series

Fri Sep 04, 2015 9:28 pm

Quoting Mortyman (Thread starter):
Why was the Boeing 727 so short lived compared to the Dc-9 / MD80 series in passenger version ?

I mean, we still se the MD80 series atleast flying around with airlines. Why not the Boeing 727 ?

I know that it was some noice regulation issues and that it needed hush kits in later years, but was that the only thing ?


Wasn't there anything that could have been done performance wise to make it last in service longer ?

I miss those beauties ...

I worked the 727 for about 20 years. It was a good aircraft but did have some limitations. All versions of the 727 required a three man pilot crew. The 727-100 came with Pratt & Whitney JT8D-7 engines which was fine. Some pilots liked it as it was sort of a hot rod, like the DC-9-10 and 20. But when the 727 was stretched into the 200 series they still came with the JT8D-7 engines and was grossly underpowered and Northwest Airlines continued using only that model even though the JT8D-9 and JT8D-11 were available. The DC-9 started nipping at the heals heals of the 727, especially the 727-100 as it was a two man crew and had excellent short field capabilities despite the fact that the DC9--10 did not have leading edge devices and could carry nearly as many passengers as the 727-100. Boeing answered back with the 727-200 which carried more passengers, but the DC-9-30 was still a two man crew and could carry a competitive passenger load. Then there was the DC-9-40 and 50 which carried more passengers.
When Boeing came out with the 727-200A which was was powered by JT8D-15 engines, the 727 peaked only to be matched by the DC-9-80 series, which was still a two man crew and had more powerful JT8D-215 engines that were upgraded to the more powerful JT8D-217 engines. Both the 727-200A and the MD80 series, which is what the DC-9-80 evolved into, carried about the same number of passengers and still only required a two man flight crew.
Boeing also had by then come out with the 737-200, which originally was an aircraft requiring a three man flight crew but was soon changed over to a two man crew. This began the end of the 727 as it proved to be very impractical to make improvements to the 727 such as changing it into a two man crew and also removing the center engine. Boeing's best answer was to come out with a new build aircraft which was the 757 and to continue improving the 737 which took over from the 727. The 757 was and still is a great aircraft but both Boeing and the airlines at the time did not fully understand the 757's real potential. Also Boeing had stretched the 737 and felt the 737 and 757 competed against each other.
Another point, McDonnell Douglas started offering airlines like American and Northwest MD-80 series aircraft teaser purchase or lease agreements where they could literally operate MD-80s for a token walk away agreement and McDonnell Douglas would pay for all non routine maintenance. American Airlines took them up, but Northwest did not due to a pilot's strike. I think Republic Airlines took the MD-80s that were destined for Northwest. I do not know if any other airlines were offered this arrangement but Delta Air Lines bought them buy the gross and loved them. Northwest Airlines "merged" with Republic Airlines in 1986, which had a large number of DC-9s including the MD-80s that may have been originally destined for for Northwest Airlines. Northwest liked the DC-9s so much that they went on a feeding frenzy and bought so many DC-9-30,-40 and -50 aircraft that they became the world's largest operator of the DC-9, even though they never bought a factory new DC-9. The only DC-9 they disposed of early were the MD-80s that may of originally been destined for them, as there were only eight in Republic's fleet.
As a result of Delta's acquiring Northwest Airlines, Delta became the last major airline to operate the pre MD-80 DC-9 aircraft when they retired the DC-9-50 acquired from Northwest. Delta was the original operator of the DC-9-14 aircraft.
So in conclusion, Delta Air Lines is the first and last airline to operate the DC-9, starting in July of 1966, and will most likely be the last major airline to operate the MD-90 and 717, which are descendants of the DC-9.   

[Edited 2015-09-04 14:43:41]
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maxpower1954
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RE: Boeing 727 Vs Dc-9/MD80 Series

Fri Sep 04, 2015 9:57 pm

Quoting nikeherc (Reply 5):
According to the Delta Museum, the last DL 727 commercial flight was from GSO to ATL in April of 2003. I consider that Delta was a mainline carrier even then.

I'm curious exactly what you mean by Delta being a main line carrier even in 2003.
 
Mortyman
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RE: Boeing 727 Vs Dc-9/MD80 Series

Fri Sep 04, 2015 10:27 pm

Quoting NWAROOSTER (Reply 11):

Thanx for all this info  
 
nikeherc
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RE: Boeing 727 Vs Dc-9/MD80 Series

Fri Sep 04, 2015 11:07 pm

Quoting maxpower1954 (Reply 12):
I'm curious exactly what you mean by Delta being a main line carrier even in 2003.

I was referring to BoeingGuy's statement that 727s were retired by mainline carriers in the early 2000s and Delta in 2007. I am well aware that Delta has been a mainline or in the old vernacular a trunk carrier for a long time, dating back probably to the 1950s. Delta has been my airline of choice since 1966, when I took my first flight.
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747m8te
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RE: Boeing 727 Vs Dc-9/MD80 Series

Fri Sep 04, 2015 11:30 pm

I guess the way to look at it, if you are going to compare aircraft types, its best to compare the DC9 with the 727, and MD80/90 with the 737.

MD chose to develop the DC9 into new types like the MD80 and MD90,

Meanwhile around the same time Boeing chose to move on from the 727 by further developing the 737...737 sharing the same fuselage as the 727 and covering same types of missions so the 727 as an aircraft design became obsolete, which to this day the 737 is still being produced and ordered in big numbers....hello 737max!
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DL_Mech
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RE: Boeing 727 Vs Dc-9/MD80 Series

Fri Sep 04, 2015 11:41 pm

Quoting NWAROOSTER (Reply 11):
McDonnell Douglas started offering airlines like American and Northwest MD-80 series aircraft teaser purchase or lease agreements where they could literally operate MD-80s for a token walk away agreement and McDonnell Douglas would pay for all non routine maintenance. American Airlines took them up, but Northwest did not due to a pilot's strike.

AA and TWA were both offered teaser lease deals on DC-9-80s for 20 airplanes each in 1983.

Here's some interesting info about the TW DC-9-80 introduction into service in 1983:

http://statehistoricalsocietyofmisso...eitem/collection/twa/id/8145/rec/2
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maxpower1954
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RE: Boeing 727 Vs Dc-9/MD80 Series

Fri Sep 04, 2015 11:41 pm

Quoting nikeherc (Reply 14):
I was referring to BoeingGuy's statement that 727s were retired by mainline carriers in the early 2000s and Delta in 2007. I am well aware that Delta has been a mainline or in the old vernacular a trunk carrier for a long time, dating back probably to the 1950s. Delta has been my airline of choice since 1966, when I took my first flight.

I get it now, thanks for clearing that up. My first Delta ride was in 1969 on a DC-8 and I still think they are the one to beat, and I work for the competition! But you would be surprised how many on Anet think Delta was a small regional carrier even in the 1980s. I was impressed by a 1961 Flight International article that showed by passengers carried, Delta was the seventh largest airline in the world.
 
Viscount724
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RE: Boeing 727 Vs Dc-9/MD80 Series

Fri Sep 04, 2015 11:51 pm

727s would have remained in service with mainline carriers longer if 9/11 hadn't occurred. The big drop in traffic after that event resulted in many aircraft being parked, and it made sense to retire those with the highest operating costs. UA retired roughly 100 727-200s soon after 9/11.
 
Dalmd88
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RE: Boeing 727 Vs Dc-9/MD80 Series

Sat Sep 05, 2015 4:20 am

Going back to the OP question DC9/MD80 vs 727. The Diesel 9 was upgradable, just like the DC8. It accepted a longer stretch than the 727. The wing accepted a stretch for the 80/90. During the families production it saw four major engine upgrades: 9/80/90/717. It also was around long enough for some major avionics upgrades during production. Pretty much all of this also describes the 737 family.

I think part of the demise of Douglas lies with the DC8 and DC10. Their success with these two planes made them miss the big twin movement that Boeing got with the 767/757 and Airbus with the A300.
 
Max Q
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RE: Boeing 727 Vs Dc-9/MD80 Series

Sat Sep 05, 2015 5:28 am

The 727 was such a superb Aircraft from a Pilots point of view, the -80 wasn't even close in terms of handling qualities and the ride in turbulence.

]

But the 72 just got old, it's technology wasn't much different from the 707, the only big advance from that aircraft that I can think of was it's automatic pressurization system on the -200 series.



The 727 had a very heavy structure, three very thirsty very loud engines and required two Pilots and a Flight Engineer, the -80 was considerably lighter with only two somewhat more efficient (although not much quieter) engines and only needed two Pilots


It was also simpler and required less maintenance, it had a significant improvement in operating economics over the the three holer.


And the 757, of course was just a quantum leap in performance and economics although really it was too much aeroplane to replace the 727, Boeing should have made a real 150 seat replacement, although they warmed up the 737 to create the 300/400/500 series these 'Classic' versions were handicapped by using basically the same wing as on the original 737-100 / 200 series and it suffered with a very low cruise speed and poor ride in turbulence.


It wasn't until they built the -NG version of the 737 that Boeing finally developed a proper successor to the 727, of course by then Airbus had stolen the show with the A320 whose performance totally outclassed the 73 Classic.



The 727 was a Pilots dream but it was just too old a design to be upgraded any further and make it economically competitive after the mid -80's.

[Edited 2015-09-04 22:37:12]

[Edited 2015-09-04 22:38:36]
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ckfred
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RE: Boeing 727 Vs Dc-9/MD80 Series

Sat Sep 05, 2015 5:40 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 18):
727s would have remained in service with mainline carriers longer if 9/11 hadn't occurred. The big drop in traffic after that event resulted in many aircraft being parked, and it made sense to retire those with the highest operating costs. UA retired roughly 100 727-200s soon after 9/11.

Before 9/11, AA was looking at retirement dates ranging from 2004 to 2007, depending on which pilot rumors you wanted to believe. But, the retirement was pushed up to the spring of 2002, after 9/11.

By the summer of 2001, I think MIA was the only 727 crew base for AA. I don't know what routes the 727 was flying out of MIA, but the 727 was gone from ORD for a few years. I know that 722s were still flying out of ORD in 1996, but I can't remember when the 722 stopped flying in and out of ORD.
 
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RE: Boeing 727 Vs Dc-9/MD80 Series

Sat Sep 05, 2015 6:37 am

Thanks for all the interesting facts about the 727. As a child I was lucky to see it wearing all sorts of liveries at NCE: AF, LH, IB, AZ, TU, AH, AT, NB... I personally think it's the sexiest plane Boeing ever produced.
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Max Q
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RE: Boeing 727 Vs Dc-9/MD80 Series

Sat Sep 05, 2015 12:02 pm

Quoting ro1960 (Reply 22):
I personally think it's the sexiest plane Boeing ever produced

You have excellent taste, I couldn't agree more !
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ro1960
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RE: Boeing 727 Vs Dc-9/MD80 Series

Sat Sep 05, 2015 1:29 pm

Quoting Max Q (Reply 23):
You have excellent taste, I couldn't agree more !

  
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DiamondFlyer
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RE: Boeing 727 Vs Dc-9/MD80 Series

Sat Sep 05, 2015 1:32 pm

Quoting Max Q (Reply 20):
The 727 was such a superb Aircraft from a Pilots point of view, the -80 wasn't even close in terms of handling qualities and the ride in turbulence.

That said, a DC9 is a stupid simple airplane to fly. Very easy to cut your teeth on jet flying on the DC9.

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Mortyman
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RE: Boeing 727 Vs Dc-9/MD80 Series

Sat Sep 05, 2015 1:38 pm

I was lucky to get to fly on the Boeing 727-200 Adv with Pan Am, Mexicana, Sterling Airways, Lufthansa and American Airlines.

Sad to not see them in regulare passenger service anymore. They seem to be acceptable in the VIP configuration though ... Seen some of those lately.
 
Max Q
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RE: Boeing 727 Vs Dc-9/MD80 Series

Sat Sep 05, 2015 1:49 pm

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 25):
That said, a DC9 is a stupid simple airplane to fly. Very easy to cut your teeth on jet flying on the DC9.

Never flew the DC9 but I agree, I heard nothing but great things about it, seemed like a very good aircraft, wish I'd had the chance.
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highflier92660
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RE: Boeing 727 Vs Dc-9/MD80 Series

Sat Sep 05, 2015 1:57 pm

If one looks at a Boeing 727-200 Advanced aircraft juxtaposed alongside a Boeing 737-900ER just off the assembly line, their fuselage diameter and everything from the radome back to where the 727's S-duct begins looks virtually identical. Additionally, that 108-foot 727 wing designed way back in the early 1960s is far more advanced and capable of much higher cruise Mach numbers than its Boeing successors or McDonnell-Douglas DC-9/ MD-80 competition.

It wasn't the airframe but the engines, fuel flow and F/E panel that made the beautiful three-holer obsolete. Over the years there have been a number of engineering proposals to covert the Boeing 727 from three crew to two and the JT8-15s and 17s to a pair of higher-bypass turbofans with each subsequent design showing little interest. Starting in the late 70s and early 80s, a time when Boeing wasn't nearly as risk-adverse as recent years to produce clean-sheet airliners, the company decided from a sales standpoint to replace the Boeing 727 with the a combination of the new 757, a hot-rod still a favorite among pilots and passengers, and the CFM re-engined Boeing 737.

I highly doubt the Boeing 737-900ER will be remembered as warmly.
 
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PA727
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RE: Boeing 727 Vs Dc-9/MD80 Series

Sat Sep 05, 2015 2:00 pm

Quoting ro1960 (Reply 22):
I personally think it's the sexiest plane Boeing ever produced.

Completely agree, although I'd go so far as to drop the "Boeing." IMHO, it's the sexiest plane ever produced, period, full-stop.  
 
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RayChuang
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RE: Boeing 727 Vs Dc-9/MD80 Series

Sat Sep 05, 2015 3:24 pm

I think during the early 2000's there was some talk of an re-engining program for the MD-80's that could have tremendously extended their usable life. Imagine if they replaced the original JT8D-217/219 engines with the PW6024 engine--AA would probably still by flying them now, given the lower noise levels and fuel burn of the PW6024. But a re-engining program never happened, and as such airlines like AA are phasing out the MD-80 in favor of 737-800's and now A320 Family planes.
 
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CALTECH
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RE: Boeing 727 Vs Dc-9/MD80 Series

Sat Sep 05, 2015 3:49 pm

Quoting Mortyman (Thread starter):
Why was the Boeing 727 so short lived compared to the Dc-9 / MD80 series in passenger version ?

I mean, we still se the MD80 series atleast flying around with airlines. Why not the Boeing 727 ?

I know that it was some noice regulation issues and that it needed hush kits in later years, but was that the only thing ?


Wasn't there anything that could have been done performance wise to make it last in service longer ?

Boeing was looking to upgrade the 727, by making it a twin. But with all the changes to it, like the 767X becoming the 777, the effort became the 757.

http://www.boeing.com/history/products/757.page

http://airwaysnews.com/galleries/19050.jpg



Boeing 727-300 Model



The 727 was and is one of my favorite aircraft to fly and work on.....
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DocLightning
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RE: Boeing 727 Vs Dc-9/MD80 Series

Sat Sep 05, 2015 4:19 pm

Quoting nikeherc (Reply 2):

Let's see what it could be...
1. Two engines vs. three
2. Two crew vs. three
3. Boeing sticking with 737 because it was cheaper to make

All of these AND...

As the 727's #2 engine was integral to the fuselage, upgrading the engine to a larger diameter would have been a major engineering problem, especially as engines started to get to the sizes they reached in the 1990s. In fact, they keep getting bigger.

Can you imagine trying to fit a BR715 in a 727 aft fuselage?
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nikeherc
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RE: Boeing 727 Vs Dc-9/MD80 Series

Sat Sep 05, 2015 7:53 pm

Quoting Dalmd88 (Reply 19):
I think part of the demise of Douglas lies with the DC8 and DC10. Their success with these two planes made them miss the big twin movement that Boeing got with the 767/757 and Airbus with the A300.

Actually, the DC-7 and the DC-8 were the beginning of the end for Douglas. C. R. Smith of American convinced Donald Douglas to make one last piston powered airplane, the DC-7. The 7 was magnificent, but the engines were a disaster. They were the same engines that made the great B-29 so problematic and were only more prone to failure after the turbo-compound modification. So Douglas didn't really make a lot of money off of the 7. Douglas also dithered about making the DC-8 and was late to market and was also at a financial disadvantage to Boeing. Boeing was able to pay for much of the R&D for the 707 with the KC-135.

In some ways the DC-8 was a better plane than the 707, but Douglas made another mistake by not allowing any changes to the dimensions of the fuselage until the Super 60s. Boeing had no such restrictions and made stretches much earlier in the program. This lack of flexibility put Douglas behind the eight ball and they had to highly customize each plane to make sales. At one time, they were offering dozens of shades of white paint for the exteriors. One of the things that hurt the DC-8 early was the height of the landing gear. 707s were closer to the ground and easier to service, and airlines and operations people liked this. However the taller gear and the duck tail enabled much greater stretch ability and allowed for the 61 and 63 models.

To simplify Douglas lost their a$$ on the DC-8. It was a hole that the commercial side couldn't climb out of and drug their successful defense side down, also. The DC-9 was a dud to begin with, but adding high lift devices to the leading edge and stretching it turned it into a winner. However, it was only able to partially fill the financial hole. The DC-10 could have helped turn the corner, but, in my opinion, McDonnell management made them cut corners on the DC-10, damaging its safety record. That combined with Lockheed splitting a not huge market stalled sales and turned the 10 into another financial black hole.

McDD wanted to partner with the Chinese to make a jumbo twin, but the Department of Defense was afraid of technology transfer and killed the deal. McDD was left with warming over the DC-10, without enough money for a new wing, and thus was born another near winner. Finally in the mid 1990s the DOD wanted to reduce the number of defense contractors and we got the Boeing/McDonnelll Douglas, LockMart, and Northrup/Grumman mergers.

Boeing didn't want competition for the equally wheezy 737, so existing orders for the MD-95 were completed under the 717 moniker and the amazing run of the DC-9 came to an end.
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bmacleod
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RE: Boeing 727 Vs Dc-9/MD80 Series

Sat Sep 05, 2015 8:02 pm

The 1960s designed 727 was a gas guzzler compared to the more efficient MD-80/88/90s...

Also good to note DL and AA spent big    upgrading their MD-80/88 fleets. The DL MD-90 looks like it will continue into 2020s.

[Edited 2015-09-05 13:10:14]
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UA444
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RE: Boeing 727 Vs Dc-9/MD80 Series

Sat Sep 05, 2015 8:14 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 18):

UA was supposed to retire the 727 around 2003 originally and had about 75 in service when 9/11 happened. All 727s and 732s were gone by Halloween.
 
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tb727
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RE: Boeing 727 Vs Dc-9/MD80 Series

Sat Sep 05, 2015 8:35 pm

Quoting nikeherc (Reply 2):
5. 757 bigger and more economical

Only by 2 feet!

Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 3):
Shoot the F/E and shut down the #2 engine...

No, you need the FE, get rid of the FO and you might be onto something.

Quoting Max Q (Reply 20):
The 727 was such a superb Aircraft from a Pilots point of view, the -80 wasn't even close in terms of handling qualities and the ride in turbulence.

And we could literally smoke by just about anything in the sky carrying everything and the kitchen sink!  
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bmacleod
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RE: Boeing 727 Vs Dc-9/MD80 Series

Sat Sep 05, 2015 8:48 pm

Quoting nikeherc (Reply 2):
5. 757 bigger and more economical

And almost double the 727 range...

Plus when Boeing committed to making the 737 bigger and better, the 727 was doomed....
"What good are wings without the courage to fly?" - Atticus
 
texl1649
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RE: Boeing 727 Vs Dc-9/MD80 Series

Sat Sep 05, 2015 9:50 pm

It should be noted that at the heart of every 757 beats w 727.
 
Viscount724
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RE: Boeing 727 Vs Dc-9/MD80 Series

Sun Sep 06, 2015 12:17 am

Quoting tb727 (Reply 36):
Quoting nikeherc (Reply 2):
5. 757 bigger and more economical

Only by 2 feet!

That's comparing overall lengths. Like all T-tail aircraft the 727 is significantly longer overall than if it was designed with wing-mounted engines. That's why the 727-200 is even a few inches longer overall the the longest 707.

The passenger cabin on the 757-200 is much longer than on the 727-200 due to no T-tail and not needing a significant portion of the rear fuselage to attach the engines.

The shortest DC-9-10 is also longer overall than the 737-200 for those reasons but the 732's passenger cabin is longer.
 
Max Q
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RE: Boeing 727 Vs Dc-9/MD80 Series

Sun Sep 06, 2015 9:31 am

Quoting tb727 (Reply 36):
And we could literally smoke by just about anything in the sky carrying everything and the kitchen sink!

Thank you for that great picture TB, I wish I had one in 'A' mode at .91 mach as we did a couple of times.


Best wishes.
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


GGg
 
Tan Flyr
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RE: Boeing 727 Vs Dc-9/MD80 Series

Sun Sep 06, 2015 1:58 pm

MAybe I missed this if in an earlier post..However I seem to recall from years ago an article about Bob Crandall at AA having a study done (w/ Boeing?) on a serious rebuild of the tail of the 727 to accept to engines, and reduce the overall weight of the aircraft. Maybe combined with that study, or seperate, was a one done to re-configure the cockpits to a 2 man crew.

Many don't remember, that after the 1970 oil crisis , fueled by the Iranian Revolution, the prospect was for ever increasing oil prices far into the future.

The 757 & the oil markets dropping 60-70% by 1985/86, effectevly shelved any of those ideas.

IF 9/11 had not occured, I think most of us would agrree, the 727 would have soldiered on until the run up of oil in 2007/8..that would have been the final nail in the coffin!
 
ckfred
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RE: Boeing 727 Vs Dc-9/MD80 Series

Sun Sep 06, 2015 9:05 pm

Quoting nikeherc (Reply 33):
To simplify Douglas lost their a$$ on the DC-8. It was a hole that the commercial side couldn't climb out of and drug their successful defense side down, also. The DC-9 was a dud to begin with, but adding high lift devices to the leading edge and stretching it turned it into a winner. However, it was only able to partially fill the financial hole. The DC-10 could have helped turn the corner, but, in my opinion, McDonnell management made them cut corners on the DC-10, damaging its safety record. That combined with Lockheed splitting a not huge market stalled sales and turned the 10 into another financial black hole

Another issue was that the DC-9 had a smaller fuselage than the DC-8. The 707, 727, 737, and part of the 757 have the same fuselage. Using the same fuselage proved a good idea for Boeing

Quoting tb727 (Reply 36):
And we could literally smoke by just about anything in the sky carrying everything and the kitchen sink! 

A friend of mine spent the first five years of his career flying 727s as both F/E and F/O. It seemed like his captains were always grousing about being behind some slowpoke airplane, whether a 737 Classic, a DC-9/MD-80, or an A320.
 
Viscount724
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RE: Boeing 727 Vs Dc-9/MD80 Series

Sun Sep 06, 2015 11:28 pm

Quoting ckfred (Reply 42):
The 707, 727, 737, and part of the 757 have the same fuselage. Using the same fuselage proved a good idea for Boeing

707 fuselage width is the same as all other Boeing narrowbodies but it's deeper vertically than the 727/737.
 
A346Dude
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RE: Boeing 727 Vs Dc-9/MD80 Series

Mon Sep 07, 2015 1:45 am

Why is everyone talking about the 727 in the past tense? There are still a fair number flying in scheduled and charter cargo service, particularly up here in Canada.

[Edited 2015-09-06 18:50:01]
You know the gear is up and locked when it takes full throttle to taxi to the terminal.
 
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atypical
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RE: Boeing 727 Vs Dc-9/MD80 Series

Mon Sep 07, 2015 2:36 am

Quoting A346Dude (Reply 44):
Why is everyone talking about the 727 in the past tense? There are still a fair number flying in scheduled and charter cargo service...

That could be said of many old planes from MD-11's to Convair props. Airlines in general no longer considered it viable to fly. The 717 hasn't been produced in years still is in strong demand by mainline airlines particularly Delta.
 
DiamondFlyer
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RE: Boeing 727 Vs Dc-9/MD80 Series

Mon Sep 07, 2015 2:43 am

Quoting A346Dude (Reply 44):

Why is everyone talking about the 727 in the past tense? There are still a fair number flying in scheduled and charter cargo service, particularly up here in Canada.

As is the DC-9, probably in equal or greater numbers than the 727 is.

-DiamondFlyer
From my cold, dead hands
 
DTWPurserBoy
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Re: RE: Boeing 727 Vs Dc-9/MD80 Series

Thu Jul 21, 2016 12:06 am

NWAROOSTER wrote:
Quoting Mortyman (Thread starter):Why was the Boeing 727 so short lived compared to the Dc-9 / MD80 series in passenger version ?

I mean, we still se the MD80 series atleast flying around with airlines. Why not the Boeing 727 ?

I know that it was some noice regulation issues and that it needed hush kits in later years, but was that the only thing ?


Wasn't there anything that could have been done performance wise to make it last in service longer ?

I miss those beauties ...
I worked the 727 for about 20 years. It was a good aircraft but did have some limitations. All versions of the 727 required a three man pilot crew. The 727-100 came with Pratt & Whitney JT8D-7 engines which was fine. Some pilots liked it as it was sort of a hot rod, like the DC-9-10 and 20. But when the 727 was stretched into the 200 series they still came with the JT8D-7 engines and was grossly underpowered and Northwest Airlines continued using only that model even though the JT8D-9 and JT8D-11 were available. The DC-9 started nipping at the heals heals of the 727, especially the 727-100 as it was a two man crew and had excellent short field capabilities despite the fact that the DC9--10 did not have leading edge devices and could carry nearly as many passengers as the 727-100. Boeing answered back with the 727-200 which carried more passengers, but the DC-9-30 was still a two man crew and could carry a competitive passenger load. Then there was the DC-9-40 and 50 which carried more passengers.
When Boeing came out with the 727-200A which was was powered by JT8D-15 engines, the 727 peaked only to be matched by the DC-9-80 series, which was still a two man crew and had more powerful JT8D-215 engines that were upgraded to the more powerful JT8D-217 engines. Both the 727-200A and the MD80 series, which is what the DC-9-80 evolved into, carried about the same number of passengers and still only required a two man flight crew.
Boeing also had by then come out with the 737-200, which originally was an aircraft requiring a three man flight crew but was soon changed over to a two man crew. This began the end of the 727 as it proved to be very impractical to make improvements to the 727 such as changing it into a two man crew and also removing the center engine. Boeing's best answer was to come out with a new build aircraft which was the 757 and to continue improving the 737 which took over from the 727. The 757 was and still is a great aircraft but both Boeing and the airlines at the time did not fully understand the 757's real potential. Also Boeing had stretched the 737 and felt the 737 and 757 competed against each other.
Another point, McDonnell Douglas started offering airlines like American and Northwest MD-80 series aircraft teaser purchase or lease agreements where they could literally operate MD-80s for a token walk away agreement and McDonnell Douglas would pay for all non routine maintenance. American Airlines took them up, but Northwest did not due to a pilot's strike. I think Republic Airlines took the MD-80s that were destined for Northwest. I do not know if any other airlines were offered this arrangement but Delta Air Lines bought them buy the gross and loved them. Northwest Airlines "merged" with Republic Airlines in 1986, which had a large number of DC-9s including the MD-80s that may have been originally destined for for Northwest Airlines. Northwest liked the DC-9s so much that they went on a feeding frenzy and bought so many DC-9-30,-40 and -50 aircraft that they became the world's largest operator of the DC-9, even though they never bought a factory new DC-9. The only DC-9 they disposed of early were the MD-80s that may of originally been destined for them, as there were only eight in Republic's fleet.
As a result of Delta's acquiring Northwest Airlines, Delta became the last major airline to operate the pre MD-80 DC-9 aircraft when they retired the DC-9-50 acquired from Northwest. Delta was the original operator of the DC-9-14 aircraft.
So in conclusion, Delta Air Lines is the first and last airline to operate the DC-9, starting in July of 1966, and will most likely be the last major airline to operate the MD-90 and 717, which are descendants of the DC-9.   [Edited 2015-09-04 14:43:41]

Braniff had a few 727-200's with -7 engines (including the infamous Calder 727) that were acquired second hand from Frontier and Allegheny. I was on the Calder jet on a hot summer day with a full passenger load and we blew the #1 engine on take off. You could feel the airplane struggling to stay in the sky. Finally once we had started a slow but steady climb we all ran up to the cockpit to find three very pale and quiet pilots. When I asked what happened, the captain said "I swear the only thing that kept us in the air was ground effect."

Later, UPS modified a number of 727-100's to take Rolls Royce Engines and changed the center intake to make it larger.
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