LY777
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Why Only Regional Jets Between NYC And WAS?

Mon Sep 07, 2015 1:36 pm

Hi guys,

I was wondering why airlines only operate regional Jets between NYC and Washington DC

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cxb744
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RE: Why Only Regional Jets Between NYC And WAS?

Mon Sep 07, 2015 1:38 pm

Um, AA is mainline on its Shuttle service.
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N1120A
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RE: Why Only Regional Jets Between NYC And WAS?

Mon Sep 07, 2015 1:42 pm

AA is 100% mainline on the shuttle.
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LY777
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RE: Why Only Regional Jets Between NYC And WAS?

Mon Sep 07, 2015 1:44 pm

Quoting cxb744 (Reply 1):
Quoting N1120A (Reply 2):

I saw that AA only operated Regional jets (Embraer Jets)
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flyby519
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RE: Why Only Regional Jets Between NYC And WAS?

Mon Sep 07, 2015 1:50 pm

Quoting LY777 (Reply 3):

Quoting cxb744 (Reply 1):
Quoting N1120A (Reply 2):

I saw that AA only operated Regional jets (Embraer Jets)


This thread just got interesting. Popcorn anyone?

The E-190 and E-170 family are narrow body airliners. They aren't classified as regional jets.
 
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RE: Why Only Regional Jets Between NYC And WAS?

Mon Sep 07, 2015 1:57 pm

Quoting LY777 (Reply 3):
I saw that AA only operated Regional jets (Embraer Jets)

1) AA still mixes in Airbus narrows.

2) E190s at AA are mainline planes operated by mainline (LYS) crews.
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questions
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RE: Why Only Regional Jets Between NYC And WAS?

Mon Sep 07, 2015 2:07 pm

What is LYS, eg, "mainline (LYS) crews"?
 
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jfklganyc
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RE: Why Only Regional Jets Between NYC And WAS?

Mon Sep 07, 2015 2:13 pm

E190 and 170 are in fact classified by the FAA as ERJs.

Nonetheless 190s are mainline just about everywhere. 170s are operated by regional partners just about everywhere

Smaller jets are prevalant due to frequency and the high-speed train and post 9/11 TSA procesdures
 
mhkansan
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RE: Why Only Regional Jets Between NYC And WAS?

Mon Sep 07, 2015 2:14 pm

Quoting questions (Reply 6):
What is LYS, eg, "mainline (LYS) crews"?

Probably mistyped LUS, for Legacy- US Airways crews.
 
Ned Kelly
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RE: Why Only Regional Jets Between NYC And WAS?

Mon Sep 07, 2015 2:21 pm

Quoting flyby519 (Reply 4):
This thread just got interesting. Popcorn anyone?

The E-190 and E-170 family are narrow body airliners. They aren't classified as regional jets.

Doesn't the RJ in ERJ-170/190 stand for Regional Jet? Even Airliner.net aircraft data page refers to these aircraft as a Regional Airliners and that the RJ was only dropped for marketing purposes. I think it is irrelevant which aircrew flies them. Therefore I don't feel that the original question has been answered.

https://www.airliners.net/aircraft-data/stats.main?id=406
 
ty97
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RE: Why Only Regional Jets Between NYC And WAS?

Mon Sep 07, 2015 2:22 pm

AA (pmUS) uses E190s which AA (US) classify an mainline but some may call regional jets. Regardless of the semantics (an argument about which would be less than fruitful IMO), the reason AA (US) and others use mid-size (my words) planes for this route is because travelers prefer frequency on this route and these size planes are the right size (determined by the airlines) to provide that frequency.

Put another way, AA, Delta, and others could run 767s ever three hours but they business travel patterns show that a 190 or 175 hourly is a better option.
 
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RE: Why Only Regional Jets Between NYC And WAS?

Mon Sep 07, 2015 2:23 pm

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 7):
E190 and 170 are in fact classified by the FAA as ERJs.

Nonetheless 190s are mainline just about everywhere. 170s are operated by regional partners just about everywhere

Smaller jets are prevalant due to frequency and the high-speed train and post 9/11 TSA procesdures

Don't forget about scope clause that keeps the 190's flying by mainline pilots. AA/US have a very specific reason they let the mainline pilots fly the 190's.
Try to compete with high speed rail, bus service, and other airlines offering shuttle service from LGA to DCA, and other airports in the Northeast. I know it is different there in France probably with Air France and the TGV. UA codeshares with Amtrak to certain locations and I don't know if they still do to this day.
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FLIHGH
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RE: Why Only Regional Jets Between NYC And WAS?

Mon Sep 07, 2015 3:01 pm

JetBlue occasionally uses a 320 on the route as well.
 
masseybrown
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RE: Why Only Regional Jets Between NYC And WAS?

Mon Sep 07, 2015 3:19 pm

The thing to remember is AMTRAK and cheap buses carry most of the NY-DC traffic. The route isn't the gold mine it once was.
 
UALFAson
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RE: Why Only Regional Jets Between NYC And WAS?

Mon Sep 07, 2015 3:20 pm

ERJ semantics aside, there are a couple of reasons airlines no longer offer 727/737-sized aircraft on the route like the Shuttle glory days.

Airlines have lost lots of pax to the Acela and Amtrak trains, which run from city center downtown to city center downtown, as opposed to LGA which can be an hour away from Manhattan in rush hour traffic. Not only can the train be faster, riders can relax, sleep, and/or work the whole time, and the train can be cheaper. There is no post-9/11 security to go through and no endless delays at LGA where maybe you leave ontime or maybe you're number 27 for takeoff.

Plus, with the advent of email/teleconferencing/Skype/FaceTime technology, there is less need to make in-person trips for less-important meetings.
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N1120A
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RE: Why Only Regional Jets Between NYC And WAS?

Mon Sep 07, 2015 4:01 pm

One has to remember that the E-Jet series was developed to replace the DC9s and F100s that were leaving the US mainline fleet at that time. There is still a shortage of 90-110 seat planes.

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 7):
E190 and 170 are in fact classified by the FAA as ERJs.

No - they are simply named that on the type certificate. Like the E145 is called the EMB-145, and not the ERJ moniker most people know it by.

Quoting Ned Kelly (Reply 9):
Doesn't the RJ in ERJ-170/190 stand for Regional Jet?

Theoretically, but that is simply what name they were given on the type certificate. They are small mainline planes - particularly the 190 and 195.

Quoting CcrlR (Reply 11):
Don't forget about scope clause that keeps the 190's flying by mainline pilots. AA/US have a very specific reason they let the mainline pilots fly the 190's.

United and Delta are the same.
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mtnwest1979
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RE: Why Only Regional Jets Between NYC And WAS?

Mon Sep 07, 2015 4:05 pm

Plus with smaller capacity aircraft, less time is wasted on the short route waiting to board and deplane.
I doubt that is a legit reason, but one none the less lol.
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alfa164
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RE: Why Only Regional Jets Between NYC And WAS?

Mon Sep 07, 2015 4:30 pm

Quoting ty97 (Reply 10):
Regardless of the semantics (an argument about which would be less than fruitful IMO), the reason AA (US) and others use mid-size (my words) planes for this route is because travelers prefer frequency on this route and these size planes are the right size (determined by the airlines) to provide that frequency.

   Exactly. The Embraer planes bring full-size-jet comfort (and, in many cases, more comfort) to a time-sensitive market, effectively replacing less-efficient MD88's, 737, and Fokkers.

Remember... there was a time when a 100-seat plane was considered a large aircraft. Branding them "regional jets" doesn't diminish their value on these routes.
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jetblue1965
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RE: Why Only Regional Jets Between NYC And WAS?

Mon Sep 07, 2015 4:48 pm

Amtrak Acela is only 2:50 from NYC to WAS, city center to city center. By the time u factor in certain TSA hassles and highway congestion, it's nearly no brainier for many to take the train, even if it means fewer loyalty points

NYC-BOS is right at the borderline where flying makes some sense in certain scenarios. For NYC-WAS, Amtrak is a very strong alternative.
 
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RE: Why Only Regional Jets Between NYC And WAS?

Mon Sep 07, 2015 4:58 pm

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 18):
NYC-BOS is right at the borderline where flying makes some sense in certain scenarios. For NYC-WAS, Amtrak is a very strong alternative.

For NYC-WAS, Amtrak is basically a no-brainer. For NYC-BOS, Acela is still generally an advantage. Where flying becomes an alternative is for people who live in the suburbs.
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slcdeltarumd11
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RE: Why Only Regional Jets Between NYC And WAS?

Mon Sep 07, 2015 5:11 pm

It's a business heavy route they need frequency.

Amtrak is a great alternative in the northeast. Ny-was is the fastest tracks overall in the Amtrak system I think it's the fastest sector in North America actually.

Ny-bos has too many spots they need to slow down and too many commuter trains thru Connecticut slowing it down. Some work is planned to help improve times but its really metronorth that hurts bos times, very frequent and slow commuter trains.


Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 18):
NYC-BOS is right at the borderline where flying makes some sense in certain scenarios. For NYC-WAS, Amtrak is a very strong alternative.

Lga-bos 184 miles
Lga-dca 214 miles
Lga-iad 230 miles
 
ChinaClipper40
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RE: Why Only Regional Jets Between NYC And WAS?

Mon Sep 07, 2015 5:23 pm

Quoting UALFAson (Reply 14):
Airlines have lost lots of pax to the Acela and Amtrak trains

Spot-on correct. When the DCA-LGA-BOS air shuttle was inaugurated by Eastern Airlines in 1961, rail service between Washington, NYC, and Boston was poor. Trains were slow, frequency was poor, and trains made many intermediate stops between Washington, NYC, and Boston. In contrast, the Eastern air shuttle was a dream. Reservations were not needed, seat assignments were not given, no check-in was required, and no boarding passes were issued. One simply arrived at the airport, walked to the shuttle departure area, boarded the plane, and took a seat. Service was nominally hourly, but Eastern guaranteed everyone a seat at each hourly departure; if any given flight filled, another aircraft was ready to go immediately (even if it carried only a single passenger). During the early morning and late afternoon rush hours, planes were dispatched as soon as they filled with passengers - 3 or 4 departures per hour were not uncommon. Once in the air, cabin crew members came down the aisle and collected fares (which were actually slightly lower than regular economy fares). It was basically the same business model as a municipal bus. Then, in 1969, Metroliner rail service at speeds up to 125 mph was introduced on the Washington-NYC route. More recently, Amtrak's hourly Acela service was introduced - providing city-center to city-center rail service at speeds up to 150 mph. While still not in the same ballpark as Europe's magnificent high-speed rail, the Acela trains provide frequent, easy, and reliable service between Washington and NYC with a travel time of 2 hours 50 minutes. PLUS, no security lines, 23-inch-wide seating, lots of leg room (42-inch seat pitch), free internet access for work, and even conference tables between seat rows so that 4 people can work together while en route. All this with city-center to city-center convenience. With this level of service (plus the slightly slower Northeast Regional trains that run inter-leaved between the Acela trains), Amtrak has captured roughly a 75% share of air/train commuters between New York and Washington. Is it any wonder that the airlines have lost patronage to rail? Is it any wonder that smaller aircraft can now handle the reduced air traffic?
 
N1120A
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RE: Why Only Regional Jets Between NYC And WAS?

Mon Sep 07, 2015 5:28 pm

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 20):
Lga-bos 184 miles
Lga-dca 214 miles
Lga-iad 230 miles

GC distance from LGA isn't what you are looking at here. NYP-BOS involves cutting around the Long Island Sound and not taking a straight line to Boston. NYP-WAS is much more direct. Also, the fastest running on the Acela is in MA and RI. You are right that Metro North and CDOT create issues, though a lot of the problem is that the Acela isn't allowed to use the tilting function and has to slow down substantially on the curvy route.
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MAH4546
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RE: Why Only Regional Jets Between NYC And WAS?

Mon Sep 07, 2015 7:13 pm

American uses mainline on DCA-JFK.
a.
 
csavel
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RE: Why Only Regional Jets Between NYC And WAS?

Mon Sep 07, 2015 7:19 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 22):
NYP-BOS involves cutting around the Long Island Sound and not taking a straight line to Boston.

It is pretty much a straigh line. The Long Island Sound ends where the Bronx and Queens meet.

If I recall, when Boston Trains left out of Grand Central, before most of you were born,    it was straight up Park Ave and then the New Haven Line tracks. I think now they actually go to Queens to go to the Bronx, bia the Hell Gate Bridge.

But I digress, the better question might be why is there air service at all between New York and DC/Boston at all? Can't be O&D, or only a small percentage of that is O&D. THe really rich and powerful go from Teterboro to DCA on their own jets, the reglar Joes (like Me go between Manhattan and DC for work about 6 times/year. Haven't taken the plane since the 90s!

I assume a lot os connecting traffic to a hub.
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thekorean
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RE: Why Only Regional Jets Between NYC And WAS?

Mon Sep 07, 2015 7:24 pm

Quoting csavel (Reply 24):

If thats the case UA doesn't need flights to BOS, or WAS. They codeshare with Amtrak and Amtrak makes a stop at EWR. Convenient.

Northeast NEEDS Amtrak service. Especially New York. Air space is cogested as is. Imagine no Amtrak.

[Edited 2015-09-07 12:25:54]
 
jetblue1965
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RE: Why Only Regional Jets Between NYC And WAS?

Mon Sep 07, 2015 7:28 pm

Quoting thekorean (Reply 25):

I presume a majority of UA's traffic on those would be connecting.

But if u look across carriers, DCA-LGA/EWR has ridiculous cancellation rates compared to the overall network. It's so unreliable that some simply don't wanna chance it.
 
luv2fly
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RE: Why Only Regional Jets Between NYC And WAS?

Tue Sep 08, 2015 2:46 am

Also consider all the bus service now being offered by all the new bus companies.
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ro1960
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RE: Why Only Regional Jets Between NYC And WAS?

Tue Sep 08, 2015 12:09 pm

Quoting CcrlR (Reply 11):
I know it is different there in France probably with Air France and the TGV.

AF provides a similar partnership with SNCF but it's rather targeted at connections with long haul flights.

http://www.airfrance.fr/FR/en/common...n_avion_train_tgvair_airfrance.htm
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N1120A
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RE: Why Only Regional Jets Between NYC And WAS?

Wed Sep 09, 2015 12:43 am

Quoting luv2fly (Reply 27):
Also consider all the bus service now being offered by all the new bus companies.

Those get the low end of the market, which neither Amtrak, nor the airlines, want.
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luv2fly
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RE: Why Only Regional Jets Between NYC And WAS?

Wed Sep 09, 2015 12:52 am

They attract a wide range of passengers based on what they charge and services they offer. So it is not just the bottom of the barrel.
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DeltaRules
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RE: Why Only Regional Jets Between NYC And WAS?

Wed Sep 09, 2015 12:58 am

Quoting cxb744 (Reply 1):
Um, AA is mainline on its Shuttle service.
Quoting N1120A (Reply 2):
AA is 100% mainline on the shuttle.
Quoting LY777 (Reply 3):
I saw that AA only operated Regional jets (Embraer Jets)

Really hate to be splitting hairs here, but it's still US until October 17th, for better or worse. That may explain some of his confusion.
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RE: Why Only Regional Jets Between NYC And WAS?

Wed Sep 09, 2015 1:12 am

Quoting DeltaRules (Reply 31):

Actually that's more like splitting the atom. Its like a month and change from now.
 
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RE: Why Only Regional Jets Between NYC And WAS?

Wed Sep 09, 2015 1:42 am

US Airways is only a brand now. They are SOC.
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ChinaClipper40
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RE: Why Only Regional Jets Between NYC And WAS?

Wed Sep 09, 2015 2:25 am

Quoting csavel (Reply 24):
I think now they actually go to Queens to go to the Bronx, via the Hell Gate Bridge.

True. But in 2011, a $295 million federal grant was awarded to address serious congestion at the Harold Interlocking choke-point in the Sunnyside rail yards in Queens - the busiest rail junction in the country. The revised track alignment has dedicated Amtrak tracks to the Hell Gate Bridge and thence through the Bronx to the Metro-North tracks at New Rochelle. This allows Amtrak trains arriving from or bound for New England to avoid New Jersey Transit and LIRR rail traffic - which previously was intermingled and significantly slowed Amtrak service departing/arriving NYC. Amtrak's departures/arrivals to/from New England and Boston are now significantly faster than previously. Eliminating such choke-points, upgrading the century-old overhead catenary wire between DC and NYC, replacing equally old portions of track and sleepers, replacing manually-operated swing bridges, straightening sharp curves (especially along the Connecticut shore east of New Haven), eliminating all existing level-grade crossings, and widening the rail right-of-way between New Rochelle and New Haven so that Acela trains can use their tilt-train technology (the land for such widening exists; the tracks are simply mal-positioned) could ultimately lead to 1.5 hour rail travel between NYC and DC, and also between NYC and Boston. At which point, air travel becomes completely non-competitive.
 
ThePinnacleKid
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RE: Why Only Regional Jets Between NYC And WAS?

Wed Sep 09, 2015 2:38 am

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 7):
E190 and 170 are in fact classified by the FAA as ERJs.

For pure random semantics... The ERJ-145 is actually the EMB-145 series... and the EMB-170 is actually the ERJ-170 series as FAA goes...
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thekorean
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RE: Why Only Regional Jets Between NYC And WAS?

Wed Sep 09, 2015 2:42 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 29):

Amtrak is a lot cheaper than flying too. Well, if you take the rgional anyway.
 
us330
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RE: Why Only Regional Jets Between NYC And WAS?

Wed Sep 09, 2015 3:01 am

Quoting thekorean (Reply 36):
Amtrak is a lot cheaper than flying too. Well, if you take the rgional anyway.

You'd be surprised. I've found Amtrak (even regional) fares to be similar to that of airfare. Occasionally, you can snag something cheap if you book well ahead of time, but Amtrak generally isn't cheap.

Not that this affects most air traffic, but there is also expanded bus service between NYC and WAS that is pretty popular amongst young professionals, college students, and others looking to save a buck or two. Taking the bus no longer has the stigma it once did.
 
jc2354
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RE: Why Only Regional Jets Between NYC And WAS?

Wed Sep 09, 2015 5:09 am

Quoting CcrlR (Reply 11):
Don't forget about scope clause that keeps the 190's flying by mainline pilots.

Is scope still determined by the capacity of the aircraft, or is it weight?
If not now, then when?
 
32andBelow
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RE: Why Only Regional Jets Between NYC And WAS?

Wed Sep 09, 2015 5:10 am

Quoting us330 (Reply 37):
Taking the bus no longer has the stigma it once did.

IT now has wifi!
 
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thekorean
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RE: Why Only Regional Jets Between NYC And WAS?

Wed Sep 09, 2015 5:23 am

Quoting us330 (Reply 37):

Bus is awful and always will be awful, wifi or no. Screw that.

But thats my personal opinion. People really wanting to cheap out will take the bus.

Amtrak in the northeast is not cheap yea. But thats because of high demand. Outside NE? No question, its cheaper than airlines. Slower than trains in the northeast but nevertheless.
 
doug_or
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RE: Why Only Regional Jets Between NYC And WAS?

Wed Sep 09, 2015 5:44 am

Quoting thekorean (Reply 40):
Bus is awful and always will be awful, wifi or no. Screw that.

Seats are nicer than an RJ...
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thekorean
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RE: Why Only Regional Jets Between NYC And WAS?

Wed Sep 09, 2015 6:00 am

Quoting doug_or (Reply 41):

1 hour ride vs 6 hour ride though?
 
washingtonflyer
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RE: Why Only Regional Jets Between NYC And WAS?

Wed Sep 09, 2015 11:39 am

I would never take the bus for a business trip given the travel headaches involved of being in I-95 and the NJ Turnpike. To hell with that.

Amtrak is cheaper than Shuttle if you take the Regional which takes about 3:45 to get from Union Station DC to Penn Station. The Acela is about 50 minutes quicker.

Except for a few trains, the Acela is still cheaper than Shuttle - one day advance on Acela runs about $500 versus about $800 for Shuttle. The difference on pricing for Acela is that Acela is very tight on low fare bucket advance fares while Shuttle is much more generous. Looking at a month from now, the prime time Acela trains are still about $500. Shuttle comes in at the same price - $500.
 
us330
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RE: Why Only Regional Jets Between NYC And WAS?

Wed Sep 09, 2015 12:46 pm

Quoting thekorean (Reply 40):
Bus is awful and always will be awful, wifi or no. Screw that.

But thats my personal opinion. People really wanting to cheap out will take the bus

Have you taken Bolt or Megabus? For leisure, last minute weekend trips, it's a great option.

Only thing semi-sketchy is that they literally drop you off on the corner in New York, so there's not really a designated waiting area/waiting room. Not that the Port Authority Bus Terminal would be any better.

Quoting washingtonflyer (Reply 43):
I would never take the bus for a business trip given the travel headaches involved of being in I-95 and the NJ Turnpike. To hell with that.

That's understandable. That's why I'm not certain whether the increase in bus service (and decreased stigma associated with it) actually affected demand for seats on the NYC-WAS shuttle, or whether it stimulated a new segment of the market that would otherwise stay at home.
 
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thekorean
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RE: Why Only Regional Jets Between NYC And WAS?

Wed Sep 09, 2015 4:30 pm

Quoting us330 (Reply 44):

Took bus from PHI and so couldn't stand it.
 
a380787
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RE: Why Only Regional Jets Between NYC And WAS?

Wed Sep 09, 2015 5:08 pm

Quoting thekorean (Reply 45):
Took bus from PHI and so couldn't stand it.

If you took the ghetto greyhound then yea those suck big time. The newer gen bus companies are lot nicer than greyhound quality.

Even if you exclude bus from your options, rail should definitely be high on the list. I for one would most certainly rail it between PHL and NYC instead of flying.

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