'CX To Launch HKG-MAD'

SCQ83 · Thu Sep 10, 2015 2:27 pm

Quoting a380787 (Reply 45):
Just because it's not Spanish speaking doesn't make it non-core. Not counting the oddball CA tag flight, there's 4x daily GRU-MAD versus only 2x daily GRU-LIS (TAM doesn't even bother serving GRU-LIS, so that tells you the Portuguese linkage is not the biggest determining factor)

It doesn't make any sense. In MAD, Cathay passengers will be able to connect to IB and LATAM's MAD-GRU which must be at least two daily.

Quoting a380787 (Reply 45):
Just because it's not Spanish speaking doesn't make it non-core. Not counting the oddball CA tag flight, there's 4x daily GRU-MAD versus only 2x daily GRU-LIS (TAM doesn't even bother serving GRU-LIS, so that tells you the Portuguese linkage is not the biggest determining factor)

TAM does not serve any Portuguese destination. As for MAD-GRU... that is a very competitive route already with four carriers (Air China, Iberia, LATAM and Air Europa). Air China heavily discountes that flight... kind of a backpacker flight to LATAM

Add to that the Brazilian economy is somehow in the verge of economic collapse (Brazil is with Russia and Ukraine the country with a major economic contraction in the last year) and that during the Brazilian boom, GRU (which depends largely on Brazilian domestic demand and business, contrary to GIG that can rely on international tourism) has got a lot of service (Emirates, Etihad, Qatar, Etiophian) which has improved massively the Asia-Brazil connectivity. I cannot think a worst time to start a heavily business-oriented route to GRU.

In any case, by reading all the comments people here (as I expected is focusing heavily on the Asia-LATAM traffic). I see it more like Spain-HKG-Asia/Australia. Madrid gets up to 5 daily ME3 flights (plus Turkish, Pegasus, RJ, Air China, Korean, etc) so demand to Asia is there.

One of the key factors (that no one has mentioned) with this flight will be connectivity with mainland China from Spain. MAD has only one Chinese destination (PEK with Air China) which is not very practical for many destinations (and some people would avoid CA). European and ME3 carriers have a limited network of secondary cities (even if growing). Cathay and Dragonair will connect MAD one-stop with basically every medium Chinese city. I see that route could be very useful for the Chinese diaspora in Spain (heavily concentrated around Madrid), Chinese tourism to Spain and the fast-growing number of Chinese that have 2nd residences in Spain or just invest in the country (the same way they do in Canada or Australia).

UALWN · Thu Sep 10, 2015 5:17 pm

Quoting a380787 (Reply 50):
The only unique one is DME-IAH.

And BCN-GRU.

a380787 · Thu Sep 10, 2015 5:25 pm

Quoting UALWN (Reply 53):

Quoting a380787 (Reply 50):
The only unique one is DME-IAH.

And BCN-GRU.

Oh sorry my head was focused on their North American network. Forgot about that one.

But one can also argue that DME-IAH is truly unique because it has a large (and high yielding) oil O&D that was completely unserved previously. BCN-GRU local traffic isn't some sort of gold mine, and SQ could just as easily leverage FRA/ZRH/IST etc for GRU connections via their alliance partners.

SCQ83 · Thu Sep 10, 2015 6:37 pm

Let's see what happens with the BCN-GRU tag. LATAM is starting the route next summer.

I wouldn't be surprised that Singapore leaves BCN at some point. It is clear they haven't been able to cope with the rise of the ME3... and Etihad still has to fly to BCN.

migair54 · Fri Sep 11, 2015 7:27 am

I don't think IB and UX will ever allow a tag to Latin America from MAD, I think CA got just purely for politics and it's 2 weekly but CX is in Oneworld and MAD is IB home, so why should CX do any tag?? most of the destinations are well covered by IB so working together is the way to go.

I'd love to see IB doing a flight to HKG is a JV with CX the same way CX-QR do in DOH-HKG, coordinated schedules and offering the whole wide range of connexions in both ends.

Quoting aerokiwi (Reply 49):
I'm pretty sure the AKL connection with LA to SCL and NZ to EZE (from December), alongside via SYD, is the shorter and easier route, requiring no visas for HKG residents. Faster would equal better, I'd imagine and no expensive tag ons, relying instead on partner airlines.

They're both shorter, EZE not very much, for the rest of SA MAD is shorter. HKG residents don't need transit visa via MAD.

Who will be next in MAD?? I think it's time for JAL-IB to link MAD and Tokyo.

SCQ83 · Fri Sep 11, 2015 8:13 am

Quoting migair54 (Reply 54):
Who will be next in MAD?? I think it's time for JAL-IB to link MAD and Tokyo.

Hopefully PVG with China Eastern, NRT with JAL/IB and DEL with AI.

mfc · Fri Sep 11, 2015 9:21 am

Quoting migair54 (Reply 54):
Who will be next in MAD?? I think it's time for JAL-IB to link MAD and Tokyo.

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 55):
Hopefully PVG with China Eastern, NRT with JAL/IB and DEL with AI.

I'm pretty sure MAD-NRT is bound to be launched for next year, IB has announced that the route is under study. Estimated O&D demand between Madrid and Hong Kong in 2014 was 38,000 bookings, while between Madrid and Tokyo was around 110,000. If CX is doing MAD, I don't see why not IB/JL could do MAD-NRT. Moreover, connecting through Madrid between Tokyo and GRU, EZE or GIG is a little shorter than via the ME, a little longer than via North America (although transiting at US airports is a nightmare) and OW offers a larger South American network compared to other European hubs. So connecting traffic could play an important role on the route.

Looking at CX's schedules in Madrid, it seems that they are not looking after connecting passengers to/from South America, given that stopovers would be 4 hours long at least in both directions.

peterinlisbon · Fri Sep 11, 2015 10:53 am

With this Madrid now has pretty good connectivity to Asia, completely the opposite of what the situation was 10 years ago.

RAGAZZO777 · Fri Sep 11, 2015 7:06 pm

Quoting mfc (Reply 56):
Looking at CX's schedules in Madrid, it seems that they are not looking after connecting passengers to/from South America, given that stopovers would be 4 hours long at least in both directions.

This.

CX's new MAD service doesn't well connect with most IB's South American destinations...

777way · Sat Sep 12, 2015 5:11 pm

Is CX cargo still doing Zaragoza?

CX Flyboy · Sun Sep 13, 2015 4:08 am

Quoting 777way (Reply 59):
Is CX cargo still doing Zaragoza?

Not anymore. As far as I know, the one client that made CX start services in the first place (Zara apparently) changed to a different airline so we stopped.

teme82 · Sun Sep 13, 2015 4:47 am

Quoting KarelXWB (Thread starter):
Last month CAPA suggested that the upcoming A350-900 aircraft could open new routes to Gatwick, Copenhagen and Madrid.

I hope that they open route to HEL soon.... We need more OW carriers in here

Miami · Sun Sep 13, 2015 4:48 am

Quoting teme82 (Reply 61):
I hope that they open route to HEL soon.... We need more OW carriers in here

Here in MIA too!

shengzhurou · Sun Sep 13, 2015 10:58 am

I am just wondering why not use the A350 to launch the route, or maybe CX is saving it for a daily flight in the future?

migair54 · Sun Sep 13, 2015 11:16 am

Quoting shengzhurou (Reply 63):
I am just wondering why not use the A350 to launch the route, or maybe CX is saving it for a daily flight in the future?

Maybe they want to use the A350 initially for few month in shorter sectors for crew training and better utilisation, I wonder where is the B77W coming from, do they have spare capacity at the moment??

Quoting Miami (Reply 62):
Here in MIA too!

In some other threads by this time you will be burned alive for such a comment...

Quoting CX Flyboy (Reply 60):
Not anymore. As far as I know, the one client that made CX start services in the first place (Zara apparently) changed to a different airline so we stopped.

Recently Zaragoza had a few more flights from QR and EK, even to America, so I guess they are the ones replacing CX.

Quoting RAGAZZO777 (Reply 58):
CX's new MAD service doesn't well connect with most IB's South American destinations...

It´s not that bad also for the bigger markets, 3-4 hours, maybe the reason is the other end, maybe CX is trying to arrange the schedule to maximise the HKG side.

Quoting mfc (Reply 56):
Moreover, connecting through Madrid between Tokyo and GRU, EZE or GIG is a little shorter than via the ME, a little longer than via North America (although transiting at US airports is a nightmare) and OW offers a larger South American network compared to other European hubs. So connecting traffic could play an important role on the route.

Connecting via US Airport for many passports are a nightmare or even not possible due to visa requirements, so MAD will be a great option for them, I really hope we can see IB starting NRT and even PEK or PVG in the near future.

SCQ83 · Sun Sep 13, 2015 11:28 am

I don't understand the obsession with Asia-LATAM.

How big is really Asia-LATAM?

Also how yields are in that market? If you are talking HKG-GRU, Cathay has to compete with the ME3 plus Turkish plus Ethiopian... which are happy to discount fares... and that for an extremely long flight. And of course there is always the Euro option (i.e. HKG-CDG-GRU).

So if Cathay and Iberia want to fly someone from Hong Kong to Brazil we are talking two quite long long-haul flights that must be priced competitively to Emirates or Qatar.

Also last time I checked the Latin American economy is not doing so well; and China is slowing down. So this "BRIC" dialectic of connecting emerging economies of the world without touching the Old World (the likes of Shanghai to Rio via Dubai) maybe it is a 2011 thing, and now we are back to normal. If I am not mistaken, even Etihad reduced flights to GRU, so maybe those flights are not the gold mine (and definitely do not have the future growth expectations) that many people are insinuating here.

Rafabozzolla · Sun Sep 13, 2015 1:14 pm

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 65):

I think your point is very logic and valid. The bulk of the long-haul traffic from Brazil is to North America and Europe. Whatever traffic there is to Asia it´s well served by the carriers you´ve mentioned.

flythere · Wed Sep 16, 2015 3:07 am

CX likely put more focus on the connectivity at HKG end rather than MAD end. Can't please all passengers with one single timeslot.

migair54 · Wed Sep 16, 2015 9:05 am

Quoting Rafabozzolla (Reply 66):

CX likely put more focus on the connectivity at HKG end rather than MAD end. Can't please all passengers with one single timeslot.

That's what I was saying above, but obviously the SA network of IB will be good, even if it's 3-4 hours, how does it connect with Morocco flights??

Quoting Rafabozzolla (Reply 66):

After I saw the schedule I understood that SA was nto the main target, but it will be an added value, also good for cargo.

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