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KarelXWB
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BA 777 On Fire At Las Vegas - Part 2

Wed Sep 09, 2015 7:29 am

Please continue posting your updates here.

http://avherald.com/h?article=48c10434&opt=0
http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=20150908-0

Quote:

A British Airways Boeing 777-236 operating as Flight BA2276 to London Gatwick experienced a catastrophic failure of the left engine during the takeoff roll at McCarran International Airport (KLAS), Las Vegas, Nevada. The airplane sustained substantial damage and two minor injuries were reported during the runway evacuation.

Previous thread:
BA 777 On Fire At Las Vegas (by BMcD Sep 8 2015 in Civil Aviation)
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PHX787
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RE: BA 777 On Fire At Las Vegas - Part 2

Wed Sep 09, 2015 7:39 am

I wonder if this might have to do with the BA 777's accident in 08's fuel pump issue. I know that had to deal with icing, but pure speculation, it could have something to do with a fuel pump based on the previous photos posted of the fire.
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KarelXWB
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RE: BA 777 On Fire At Las Vegas - Part 2

Wed Sep 09, 2015 7:43 am

A close-up photo of the damage just showed up on Twitter:

http://twitter.com/airlivenet/status/641514541482921984
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jpetekyxmd80
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RE: BA 777 On Fire At Las Vegas - Part 2

Wed Sep 09, 2015 7:44 am

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 1):
I wonder if this might have to do with the BA 777's accident in 08's fuel pump issue. I know that had to deal with icing, but pure speculation, it could have something to do with a fuel pump based on the previous photos posted of the fire.

It's not even the same engine. This was a GE90. That was RR.
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777Jet
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RE: BA 777 On Fire At Las Vegas - Part 2

Wed Sep 09, 2015 7:51 am

Quoting jpetekyxmd80 (Reply 3):
Quoting PHX787 (Reply 1):I wonder if this might have to do with the BA 777's accident in 08's fuel pump issue. I know that had to deal with icing, but pure speculation, it could have something to do with a fuel pump based on the previous photos posted of the fire.

It's not even the same engine. This was a GE90. That was RR.

  

I doubt you'll get similar icing issues departing KLAS in early September 
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RE: BA 777 On Fire At Las Vegas - Part 2

Wed Sep 09, 2015 7:55 am

Wow. Looks like this will be the second BA 777-200ER written off. But with zero casualties. Thank goodness for that.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 1):
I wonder if this might have to do with the BA 777's accident in 08's fuel pump issue

As mentioned above, nothing to do with that as it's a totally different engine type and manufacturer.

From the image posted by KarelXWB, it looks more like an uncontained engine failure, with shrapnel puncturing the fuel tank and hence causing the fire.
 
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RE: BA 777 On Fire At Las Vegas - Part 2

Wed Sep 09, 2015 7:55 am

Quoting jpetekyxmd80 (Reply 3):
It's not even the same engine. This was a GE90. That was RR.

Not only a different engine, a different fuel system.  
oh boy, here we go!!!
 
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77west
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RE: BA 777 On Fire At Las Vegas - Part 2

Wed Sep 09, 2015 8:00 am

How much fuel would be in the center tank on KLAS-EGKK? I could fire up my flight planner but I am sure someone will be along shortly with a better answer.

the wing tanks hold around 32 Tons each and I doubt the center tank would have had more than 15-20 tons in it, it looks the most damaged.

A write off for sure. I hope I am wrong!
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RE: BA 777 On Fire At Las Vegas - Part 2

Wed Sep 09, 2015 8:11 am

looks like it could be G-YMMA helping out while this bird is in hospital awaiting results.
 
shankly
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RE: BA 777 On Fire At Las Vegas - Part 2

Wed Sep 09, 2015 8:13 am

Super, super job by the pro's....ATC, fire crews, and air crew

That's a horrible picture above....shades of Manchester with the fire damage to the fuselage

This will be a fascinating accident report to read, not necessarily for the reasons of the fire, but for the cabin evacuation process including what exits people used in relation to their seat position, door opening times, any difficulties or blockages, overall evacuation times etc

I hope this is the incident that mandates a significant change in bag evacuation rules...i.e. making it an offence to take a bag in an evacuation in the same way smoking in the toilets is an offence.

I applaud those pax that read the safety card, kept their shoes on and got the hell out as per cabin crew instruction.

Those that thought their laptop and designer shirt was worth even 1 second of effort...I hope I never have the misfortune to end up on the same plane, as you are a danger to fellow passengers
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moo
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RE: BA 777 On Fire At Las Vegas - Part 2

Wed Sep 09, 2015 8:14 am

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 2):
A close-up photo of the damage just showed up on Twitter:

What are they likely to be bagging in that photo? I cant see any tags etc so unless they've been removed after photos have been taken, aren't they disturbing evidence?
 
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RE: BA 777 On Fire At Las Vegas - Part 2

Wed Sep 09, 2015 8:14 am

Just wanted to say that the evac went exactly as it should, and gives me great confidence being a very frequent BA flyer to see how well things were handled. The calmness in the pilot's voice on the ATC recording is absolute textbook case of remaining calm and sticking to plan in a very difficult situation.

And the response by the LAS fire team was amazing. It really could have been so much worse - AF358 coming to mind which had a small fraction of the fuel load that BA2276 was carrying.
 
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Acey
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RE: BA 777 On Fire At Las Vegas - Part 2

Wed Sep 09, 2015 8:17 am

Quoting CPDC10-30 (Reply 14):
Just wanted to say that the evac went exactly as it should

Except for the part where everybody grabbed carry on bags.
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readytotaxi
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RE: BA 777 On Fire At Las Vegas - Part 2

Wed Sep 09, 2015 8:18 am

The BA leisure fleet based at LGW, are these owned or on lease?
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Max Q
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RE: BA 777 On Fire At Las Vegas - Part 2

Wed Sep 09, 2015 8:19 am

Quoting shankly (Reply 12):
I hope this is the incident that mandates a significant change in bag evacuation rules...i.e. making it an offence to take a bag in an evacuation in the same way smoking in the toilets is an offence.

Yeah, good luck with that, what are you going to do, charge people with an 'offence' after they survive a major accident !


While I agree its not the smartest thing to do what you propose is ridiculous.
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Chaostheory
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RE: BA 777 On Fire At Las Vegas - Part 2

Wed Sep 09, 2015 8:19 am

Quoting scbriml (Reply 8):
Yeah, they should have waited for someone to get 2/3 of the way down the runway to tell pax where to go BEFORE they started the evacuation. "Hi Dave? Yeah fine thanks. Look, can you get over to 07R to marshal some pax that will be evacuating a burning plane? Yeah, five minutes should be fine." Seriously?

Yes seriously.

In parallel to the rescue effort, there needs to be someone there from airport/ground ops to get the pax away from the aircraft so ARFF have unhindered access to the aircraft.

Whilst the girl was already deceased prior to rescue activities in the SFO accident, the potential was there for pax-vehicle conflict.
 
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RE: BA 777 On Fire At Las Vegas - Part 2

Wed Sep 09, 2015 8:20 am

Quoting Acey (Reply 15):
Except for the part where everybody grabbed carry on bags.

There's nothing anyone can do about that - you can't control the individual passengers. What are the cabin crew supposed to do? Tell the pax to drop their bags and cause an obstruction to the exits? That would be even worse.

I think we are a bit quick to judge on this - and I think some of us might have made an instinctive reaction to grab a carry-on even when knowing later that it was the wrong thing to do.
 
kl911
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RE: BA 777 On Fire At Las Vegas - Part 2

Wed Sep 09, 2015 8:21 am

Quoting moo (Reply 13):
aren't they disturbing evidence?

It's not a crime scene  
 
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moo
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RE: BA 777 On Fire At Las Vegas - Part 2

Wed Sep 09, 2015 8:27 am

Quoting kl911 (Reply 20):
It's not a crime scene  

It is an accident scene tho, and documenting everything is a fairly basic first step to determining what happened and why.
 
na
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RE: BA 777 On Fire At Las Vegas - Part 2

Wed Sep 09, 2015 8:31 am

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 2):
A close-up photo of the damage just showed up on Twitter:

Wow, only good that the scrapyards are so close. 
 
Max Q
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RE: BA 777 On Fire At Las Vegas - Part 2

Wed Sep 09, 2015 8:32 am

Anyway, superb job by the BA crew as expected and a fantastic response by ATC and emergency services.


Poor old BA hasn't had the best of luck with the triple, I hope they figure out what was the problem with
the GE90 pretty quick.
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SKAirbus
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RE: BA 777 On Fire At Las Vegas - Part 2

Wed Sep 09, 2015 8:33 am

Quoting CPDC10-30 (Reply 19):
I think we are a bit quick to judge on this - and I think some of us might have made an instinctive reaction to grab a carry-on even when knowing later that it was the wrong thing to do.

A solution would be to have a locking mechanism during take off and landing that prevents the opening of over-head lockers. Obviously passengers need to be informed of this but it means that they can get out without causing any obstruction, especially in incidents worse than this one where a fire can engulf the entire aircraft.

I'm no expert but based on the age of the aircraft (it's first flight was in January 1999) and the damage to the fuselage integrity, I'd be suprised if insurance companies didn't deem it to be a constructive total loss (i.e. where the cost of repair exceeds the value of the frame).

Curiosly Planespotters.net already has it down as a write-off: http://www.planespotters.net/airfram.../777/29320/G-VIIO-British-Airways. If they can already make that assessment then I'm sure there are several Lloyd's syndicates that will be offering them a job in their claims department.
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Max Q
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RE: BA 777 On Fire At Las Vegas - Part 2

Wed Sep 09, 2015 8:42 am

Quoting SKAirbus (Reply 25):
A solution would be to have a locking mechanism during take off and landing that prevents the opening of over-head lockers.

That's an even worse idea, you'd have passengers staying on board desperately trying to open the overheads to get their bags and dying as a result.

Quoting SKAirbus (Reply 25):
Obviously passengers need to be informed of this but it means that they can get out without causing any obstruction,

Believe me they wouldn't pay attention and your'e introducing another layer of needless complexity that can go wrong, furthermore there is emergency equipment stored in the overheads throughout the aircraft, what if you couldn't get to it ?


Bad idea, if people are going to take their bags you can't stop them, better not to try, just get them off the aircraft asap.
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


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Summa767
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RE: BA 777 On Fire At Las Vegas - Part 2

Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:05 am

Quoting Gazdon121 (Reply 11):
looks like it could be G-YMMA helping out while this bird is in hospital awaiting results.

Has this one been transferred to LGW on a temporary basis?
LGW was due to have an additional 777 for May 2016, when it adds LIM and SJO. I guess that makes 2 to be transferred to LGW from LHR -one now and one next Spring- If the 777 at LAS is a write off as many seem to expect.
 
OMP777X
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RE: BA 777 On Fire At Las Vegas - Part 2

Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:11 am

Quoting ChaosTheory (Reply 18):
Whilst the girl was already deceased prior to rescue activities in the SFO accident, the potential was there for pax-vehicle conflict.

Actually, it was determined in her autopsy that the cause of her death was due to the fire truck crushing her beneath its wheel as it ran her over. Now, that's unrelated to what you've proposed since she was ejected from the aircraft on impact, and hadn't been evacuating when she ended up on the runway.

Based on the looks of the photos presented here of the aftermath of this 777's fire, I'm pretty surprised to see the gear was intact and not damaged by fire or the apparent source of the fire as many presumed.

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Bongodog1964
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RE: BA 777 On Fire At Las Vegas - Part 2

Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:12 am

Quoting ChaosTheory (Reply 18):
n parallel to the rescue effort, there needs to be someone there from airport/ground ops to get the pax away from the aircraft so ARFF have unhindered access to the aircraft.

Fire trucks have priority, no one else is ever going to get there before they do, medical next, and personnel to look after the uninjured survivors thereafter. It cannot ever be any other way.

Two factors seem to me to have helped this incident pass off without loss of life, firstly that BA generally have a fairly low density of seating, even on this 3 class 772, it will be quite low in comparison to many other 772's, and secondly it was a quiet day with a load factor of around 60%. In a high density plane with a full passenger load, the idiots taking their roll aboard cases down the slides could have had tragic consequences. At the very least they need to be informed in writing that their actions are unacceptable.
 
Gazdon121
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RE: BA 777 On Fire At Las Vegas - Part 2

Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:32 am

Quoting summa767 (Reply 28):

sorry I mean G-YMME as it is currently at LHR and positioning to LGW later today and will operate the LGW-TPA flight with a delay, I am only guessing this aircraft is covering for the injured Bird due to it at LHR at present
 
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scbriml
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RE: BA 777 On Fire At Las Vegas - Part 2

Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:38 am

Quoting Max Q (Reply 17):
Yeah, good luck with that, what are you going to do, charge people with an 'offence' after they survive a major accident

Yes, for reckless endangerment of other pax. Just like smoking in the lav.

Quoting Max Q (Reply 26):
That's an even worse idea, you'd have passengers staying on board desperately trying to open the overheads to get their bags and dying as a result.

Then I'd have no sympathy for the idiots.
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B8887
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RE: BA 777 On Fire At Las Vegas - Part 2

Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:43 am

Quoting na (Reply 23):
Wow, only good that the scrapyards are so close.

Correct.

That plane is, sadly, almost certainly, a write-off.

Regards.

B8887
 
Bongodog1964
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RE: BA 777 On Fire At Las Vegas - Part 2

Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:43 am

Looks like another re jig to the BA retirement schedule, even if repairable this bird will be grounded for a while.
Last time round BNLE got the reprieve after the wing incident in South Africa.

Fortunately for the BA schedules there's a few deliveries imminent.
 
na
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RE: BA 777 On Fire At Las Vegas - Part 2

Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:51 am

Quoting B8887 (Reply 32):
That plane is, sadly, almost certainly, a write-off.

Its 100% a write-off. Its much more damaged than the fire-gutted Egyptair 777 scrapped a few years ago. BA scrapped a 20-something year old 744 fresh out of a D-check with moderate wing damage, the damage on this 16-year-old 777 is way more serious than that. No way someone would attempt to repair it.
 
Lofty
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RE: BA 777 On Fire At Las Vegas - Part 2

Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:52 am

When I fly I keep a small bag under the seat infront of me or in the draw, with car keys, passport, wallet and mobile. If something was to happen I would grab and run.

Looking at this situation you have to think how many recommendations from the MAN Fire meant this one had a different outcome.

Hats off to the BA Flight and Cabin Crew for a job well done.
 
SKAirbus
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RE: BA 777 On Fire At Las Vegas - Part 2

Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:59 am

The thing is evacuations are never going to be as clear cut as crew training suggests... Where everyone stays seated until the captain tells them to evacuate and then file out in an orderly fashion. To evacuate an aircraft something quite major needs to be up, something that the passengers will likely notice. So even though there appeared to be chaos onboard, the crew did a great job.

Article below from a Guardian journalist who was onboard:

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2...ll-was-bitter-it-was-time-to-panic
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Bongodog1964
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RE: BA 777 On Fire At Las Vegas - Part 2

Wed Sep 09, 2015 10:11 am

Quoting na (Reply 34):

Quoting B8887 (Reply 32):
That plane is, sadly, almost certainly, a write-off.

Its 100% a write-off. Its much more damaged than the fire-gutted Egyptair 777 scrapped a few years ago. BA scrapped a 20-something year old 744 fresh out of a D-check with moderate wing damage, the damage on this 16-year-old 777 is way more serious than that. No way someone would attempt to repair it.

I would be very hesitant in making a firm statement in either direction. Each and every accident is different. The 744 you mention was older and part of a fleet that BA had already started to scrap. I recall that though the damage looked on the face of it less severe, the mainspar was badly damaged. In addition the plane was a long long way from its place of manufacture.

In this instance, its part of a fleet where BA have announced no retirement schedule and is presently in its Country of manufacture.

Who knows what will happen, certainly not anyone on here, and for another few hours/days neither BA engineering or the insurers.
 
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par13del
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RE: BA 777 On Fire At Las Vegas - Part 2

Wed Sep 09, 2015 10:13 am

Quoting moo (Reply 12):
What are they likely to be bagging in that photo? I cant see any tags etc so unless they've been removed after photos have been taken, aren't they disturbing evidence?
Quoting moo (Reply 21):
It is an accident scene tho, and documenting everything is a fairly basic first step to determining what happened and why.

I will go on the side where that is exactly what they are doing hence putting the debris in bags, the sooner the smaller items are collected the less chance of the winds blowing the bits away and creating FOD elsewhere on the airport.
In an accident like this you will not have the garbage disposal crew cleaning up that early, they are also at the left engine which may be where the initial failure occurred.
 
Gazdon121
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RE: BA 777 On Fire At Las Vegas - Part 2

Wed Sep 09, 2015 10:14 am

 
ogre727
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RE: BA 777 On Fire At Las Vegas - Part 2

Wed Sep 09, 2015 10:16 am

Sorry if this is a stupid question. Someone above said nothing can be done against the passengers that took their carry-ons with them. I would like to know if legally something can be done? they clearly not followed the instructions provided, and in doing so, they endangered the lives of others.... it might sound too harsh but it enrages me that people will be willing to go down the slide with a small suitcase, with the risk of .... so many things.... thoughts?
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bthebest
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RE: BA 777 On Fire At Las Vegas - Part 2

Wed Sep 09, 2015 10:18 am

To me, the logic of grabbing your bags doesn't stand up either (although I know logic for many people goes out the window in an emergency), when you consider whats going to happen next:

1. The airline, especially one like BA, will put you up in a nice 5* hotel with a wad of cash for immediate ammenities.

2. If belongings survive the event, they will be retrieved in a relatively short time and reunited with owners - surely you can live a a day or 2 without your bags.

3. If belongings are are damaged or destroyed, they'll get replaced with brand new ones   - why try to save an old tablet when you can get a brand new one! (sensible people back-up data)

Everything can be replaced, especially in this sort of situation where you'll have customer service reps bending over backwards to help.

And most people's second heart - their phone - will be in their pocket anyway. If it's not, they probably don't value it as much anyway.
 
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JerseyFlyer
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RE: BA 777 On Fire At Las Vegas - Part 2

Wed Sep 09, 2015 10:21 am

Quoting Max Q (Reply 25):
Quoting SKAirbus (Reply 25):
A solution would be to have a locking mechanism during take off and landing that prevents the opening of over-head lockers.

That's an even worse idea, you'd have passengers staying on board desperately trying to open the overheads to get their bags and dying as a result.

If they were locked at all times during landing and take-off, pax would quickly learn that they could be accessed only when the aircraft was ready for normal disembarkation, and would behave accordingly during an emergency. No locks needed on the bins used by the crew.
 
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par13del
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RE: BA 777 On Fire At Las Vegas - Part 2

Wed Sep 09, 2015 10:25 am

Quoting ogre727 (Reply 40):
Sorry if this is a stupid question. Someone above said nothing can be done against the passengers that took their carry-ons with them. I would like to know if legally something can be done?

What is done to drunks and other pax who behave badly and cause flight diversions which cost airlines and pax lots of money and inconvenience, should be simple to deal with them right?
 
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qf789
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RE: BA 777 On Fire At Las Vegas - Part 2

Wed Sep 09, 2015 10:30 am

Quoting readytotaxi (Reply 15):
The BA leisure fleet based at LGW, are these owned or on lease?

They are owned, 5 of the 4 class 772's based out of LHR are leased.
Forum Moderator
 
na
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RE: BA 777 On Fire At Las Vegas - Part 2

Wed Sep 09, 2015 10:33 am

Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 37):
Who knows what will happen, certainly not anyone on here, and for another few hours/days neither BA engineering or the insurers.

Fuselage heavily burned through at the most strengthened part.
Wing burned.
Engine blown up.

Compare that to the fire of the 14 year old Egyptair 777 that was scrapped. It was a much smaller fire.

I would agree with you if we´re talking about a 2 year old 77W. But this plane is 16 years old, it has already flown 2/3 of its projected life. Perhaps its still worth 25% of its original price. But there are airlines who are scrapping perfectly sound 777s at this age!
 
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flyingturtle
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RE: BA 777 On Fire At Las Vegas - Part 2

Wed Sep 09, 2015 10:42 am

Quoting ogre727 (Reply 40):

After getting the passengers to the terminal, police officers (or airline workers) could document which person has which luggage on him. And presto, slap fines on these people...

But it's difficult to prosecute these people. In most cases, the prosecutor needs to prove intent on the side of the passenger. If grabbing the luggage is a natural reflex, it can be difficult... I think airlines should put a contractual fine into the terms of carriage, and mention the fine on the safety card.

But punishing it by law? Difficult.


David
Reading accident reports is what calms me down
 
mattdell
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RE: BA 777 On Fire At Las Vegas - Part 2

Wed Sep 09, 2015 10:42 am

An interesting quote in here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-34194906

Quote:
"It was actually the pilot's penultimate flight before he retired - I think he will be retiring now, to be honest," she added.
 
Stealthz
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RE: BA 777 On Fire At Las Vegas - Part 2

Wed Sep 09, 2015 10:45 am

Quoting Lofty (Reply 35):
When I fly I keep a small bag under the seat infront of me or in the draw, with car keys, passport, wallet and mobile. If something was to happen I would grab and run.

I discovered in a local store here in Sydney some "cargo" pants that while not exactly stylish are acceptable for someone of my advancing years.
They had space for passport, tickets wallet etc and my camera memory cards(at a pinch camera as well) .. nothing to grab.. just get up on leave, A feature I found useful once earlier this year(not on a flight).
I also keep my shoes on until after the seatbelt sign goes out and they are back on before the prelanding seatbelt sign.
If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!
 
dergay
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RE: BA 777 On Fire At Las Vegas - Part 2

Wed Sep 09, 2015 10:47 am

Quoting JerseyFlyer (Reply 42):
If they were locked at all times during landing and take-off, pax would quickly learn that they could be accessed only when the aircraft was ready for normal disembarkation, and would behave accordingly during an emergency. No locks needed on the bins used by the crew.

Do you have a proposal for carry-on baggage stored under the seat in front of you?
Flown on A300,A310,A318,A319,A320,A321,A330,B707,B720,B727,B737,B747,B757,B767,L382,L1011,C5,DC-3,DC8,
 
bluenose5
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RE: BA 777 On Fire At Las Vegas - Part 2

Wed Sep 09, 2015 10:47 am

Sky News showing multiple people on the tarmac with **huge** bags.

These pax beggar belief. Evacuating with your bags should be an offence punishable with a custodial sentence.
 
MKIAZ
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RE: BA 777 On Fire At Las Vegas - Part 2

Wed Sep 09, 2015 10:49 am

I think a more effective route would be add into the COC that violating crewmember instructions (taking bags) disqualifies the passenger from any compensation/financial assistance from the airline.

You got off the plane with your rollaboard? Great, go find yourself a hotel room and buy a ticket on the next flight out. And I hope you have health insurance if you got hurt!

[Edited 2015-09-09 03:50:20]
 
MKIAZ
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RE: BA 777 On Fire At Las Vegas - Part 2

Wed Sep 09, 2015 10:54 am

I'm sure most of the pax that took their bags this time understand it was stupid and wouldn't do it again. But how do you get through to the other 99.9% of people, who by and large pay absolutely no attention to the safety briefing. There's not really an easy solution since it's such a rare event.
 
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RE: BA 777 On Fire At Las Vegas - Part 2

Wed Sep 09, 2015 10:56 am

Quoting bluenose5 (Reply 50):
Sky News showing multiple people on the tarmac with **huge** bags.

You can blame British Airways' overgenerous, "look the other way" policy on handluggage. I've seen people trying stuff huge bags into the overhead locker. In F and J that is ok as there is more room but in Y it is incredibly selfish behaviour as you are theiving space that can be used by other passengers.
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