fcogafa
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RE: BA 777 On Fire At Las Vegas - Part 2

Wed Sep 09, 2015 10:57 am

Quoting Max Q (Reply 23):

Anyway, superb job by the BA crew as expected and a fantastic response by ATC and emergency services.

I don't think it was particually great controlling, she didn't say anything to the Speedbird until he called her, she concentrated on the go-arounds. Making the pilot aware of what is happening to the outside of his aircraft is a vital part of the process, especially where the pilot can't see the engine. She should have at least told him the services were on their way rather than waiting for him to ask.

[Edited 2015-09-09 04:03:51]
 
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readytotaxi
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RE: BA 777 On Fire At Las Vegas - Part 2

Wed Sep 09, 2015 10:59 am

Quoting Gazdon121 (Reply 30):
G-YMME as it is currently at LHR and positioning to LGW later today and will operate the LGW-TPA flight with a delay,

Just departed LHR as BA9150.
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BoeingVista
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RE: BA 777 On Fire At Las Vegas - Part 2

Wed Sep 09, 2015 11:02 am

Quoting bluenose5 (Reply 50):
Sky News showing multiple people on the tarmac with **huge** bags.

These pax beggar belief. Evacuating with your bags should be an offence punishable with a custodial sentence.

Yup, and first on the tarmac before the majority of PAX had deplaned. What kind of speed would a 10kg polycarbonate rollon be travelling at the bottom of a slide? It would be enough to kill if it hit you in the head I would imagine. Whole can of worms but this it would seem to be a forseeable death; and that should, but won't generate a manslaughter charge.

Survive an aircraft fire and get killed by some entitled wankers carry on so he can be doing his paperwork while you are on your way to the morgue, that kind of shit is not supposed to happen.
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SKAirbus
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RE: BA 777 On Fire At Las Vegas - Part 2

Wed Sep 09, 2015 11:10 am

Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 56):
Survive an aircraft fire and get killed by some entitled wankers carry on so he can be doing his paperwork while you are on your way to the morgue, that kind of shit is not supposed to happen.

Not to mention the risk of said luggage damaging the slides. If it is slightly damaged or has any sharp edges then that could have dire consequences for people waiting to be evacuated and anyone jumping down the slide at the time.
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SOBHI51
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RE: BA 777 On Fire At Las Vegas - Part 2

Wed Sep 09, 2015 11:10 am

Quoting fcogafa (Reply 54):
I don't think it was particually great controlling, she didn't say anything to the Speedbird until he called her, she concentrated on the go-arounds. Making the pilot aware of what is happening to the outside of his aircraft is a vital part of the process, especially where the pilot can't see the engine.

I am sure the pilot knew that there is something wrong with his plane long before the controller did, the pilot have a lot on his hands at that time, the controller also, she already dispatched the fire brigade even before the captain requested it.
Good job by all involved.
I loved how cool the pilot was, typical British, and i mean it as a compliment.

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breiz
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RE: BA 777 On Fire At Las Vegas - Part 2

Wed Sep 09, 2015 11:11 am

Quoting shankly (Reply 11):
Super, super job by the pro's....ATC, fire crews, and air crew

That's a horrible picture above....shades of Manchester with the fire damage to the fuselage

Quite so.
However, and I do admit that one is always more clever after than during such an event, I wonder why a British crew most probably knowing about the Manchester disaster had not elected to veer the ac to face the wind.
 
Max Q
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RE: BA 777 On Fire At Las Vegas - Part 2

Wed Sep 09, 2015 11:12 am

Quoting scbriml (Reply 31):
Quoting Max Q (Reply 26):
That's an even worse idea, you'd have passengers staying on board desperately trying to open the overheads to get their bags and dying as a result.

Then I'd have no sympathy for the idiots.

Good for you, what about the people they block from evacuating while they're trying, unsuccessfully to get their bags ?


Still have no 'sympathy' ?


Perhaps you need to think about this a little longer..
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moo
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RE: BA 777 On Fire At Las Vegas - Part 2

Wed Sep 09, 2015 11:17 am

Quoting breiz (Reply 59):
Quite so.
However, and I do admit that one is always more clever after than during such an event, I wonder why a British crew most probably knowing about the Manchester disaster had not elected to veer the ac to face the wind.

Better to get the passengers out than reposition the aircraft. It was the delay in evacuation which killed the passengers at Manchester, not the position of the aircraft.
 
LTC8K6
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RE: BA 777 On Fire At Las Vegas - Part 2

Wed Sep 09, 2015 11:20 am

Quoting scbriml (Reply 8):
One of the photos on the Guardian's website clearly showed significant damage to the bottom of the port engine.

You can see engine damage here:

http://image.airlineratings.com/arti...76108714_3033120918736925359_n.jpg
 
Max Q
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RE: BA 777 On Fire At Las Vegas - Part 2

Wed Sep 09, 2015 11:29 am

Quoting JerseyFlyer (Reply 42):
If they were locked at all times during landing and take-off, pax would quickly learn that they could be accessed only when the aircraft was ready for normal disembarkation, and would behave accordingly during an emergency.

No they wouldn't.


Really, do you know how YOU would act during an emergency on an Aircraft ?


Ever been in one ?


Have you considered that many of these passengers were in a state of shock and acting on instinct, following their normal habit patterns in disembarking by picking up their luggage ?


It's the same reaction that leads passengers to attempt to disembark from the door they came in even if its the farthest one away.

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 46):
After getting the passengers to the terminal, police officers (or airline workers) could document which person has which luggage on him. And presto, slap fines on these people...

Ridiculous, and all of this bombastic talk from people judging others in a life threatening situation is just that. While I agree that bags should be left behind these people were terrified, and with good reason acted on instinct and perhaps not with the best logic, its called being human.

[Edited 2015-09-09 04:30:07]
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mjoelnir
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RE: BA 777 On Fire At Las Vegas - Part 2

Wed Sep 09, 2015 11:31 am

Quoting fcogafa (Reply 54):
She should have at least told him the services were on their way rather than waiting for him to ask.

According to what I heard on the tapes, she informed the pilot that the fire brigade was on the way, after he told that he had a fire.
 
YoungMans
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RE: BA 777 On Fire At Las Vegas - Part 2

Wed Sep 09, 2015 11:32 am

Quoting MKIAZ (Reply 52):
But how do you get through to the other 99.9% of people, who by and large pay absolutely no attention to the safety briefing. There's not really an easy solution since it's such a rare event.

In situations very every second counts, taking ones bags is a problem.
This incident would be a good opportunity for the main stream media (or maybe the travel agents) to do a good service (especially TV) and educate the public in association with the airlines and with their cooperation.
With planes disappearing mysteriously, getting shot out of the sky or burning on the runway, the travelling public is expected to cop an awful lot and still keep happily flying.
 
holzmann
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RE: BA 777 On Fire At Las Vegas - Part 2

Wed Sep 09, 2015 11:39 am

Perhaps we should start a different thread concerning luggage retrieval rules during evacuation.

But I believe we should redirect this discussion to the potential cause(s) of yesterday's accident. Let's get technical.
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flyingturtle
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RE: BA 777 On Fire At Las Vegas - Part 2

Wed Sep 09, 2015 11:42 am

Quoting Max Q (Reply 63):
Ridiculous, and all of this bombastic talk from people judging others in a life threatening situation is just that. While I agree that bags should be left behind these people were terrified, and with good reason acted on instinct and perhaps not with the best logic, its called being human.

But somehow we a.nutters learned what to do and what not do in case of an accident. And we are by no way the sons and daughters of Albert Einstein, Thomas Edison or any another genius.

Before departing, your focus belongs to the briefing and the safety card. Even as an a.nut reader/member since 2008/2009 I find myself paying great attention to that piece of laminated cardboard. If anybody can't understand such a safety card, flying shouldn't be his or her mode of transport. Perhaps airlines could sort out dangerous people with a multiple-choice test before they get to book their tickets.


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UsAir737
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RE: BA 777 On Fire At Las Vegas - Part 2

Wed Sep 09, 2015 11:44 am

Won't even need to be transported too far to the scrap yard. Glad there were no fatalities. Where does BA usually send their retired birds?
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na
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RE: BA 777 On Fire At Las Vegas - Part 2

Wed Sep 09, 2015 11:48 am

A wonder the fire didnt reach the fuel tank and the plane exploded. Good job of the fire brigade!

Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 62):
You can see engine damage here:

http://image.airlineratings.com/arti...76108714_3033120918736925359_n.jpg

This should put to rest anyone suggesting this plane might be repairable.
 
washingtonflyer
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RE: BA 777 On Fire At Las Vegas - Part 2

Wed Sep 09, 2015 11:53 am

Writeoff. I'll put money on it.
 
liquidair
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RE: BA 777 On Fire At Las Vegas - Part 2

Wed Sep 09, 2015 11:54 am

Quoting holzmann (Reply 66):

I wonder if, considering the reliability of these engines and BA's great safety record, there might be an external factor... Say, debris on the runway?

Is there ever any warning before components start popping in the engines? Like excessive vibrations... Although I'm guessing on the ground they'd be more difficult to detect...
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shankly
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RE: BA 777 On Fire At Las Vegas - Part 2

Wed Sep 09, 2015 11:56 am

Quoting Max Q (Reply 17):
Yeah, good luck with that, what are you going to do, charge people with an 'offence' after they survive a major accident !
Quoting Max Q (Reply 63):
Ridiculous, and all of this bombastic talk from people judging others in a life threatening situation is just that. While I agree that bags should be left behind these people were terrified, and with good reason acted on instinct and perhaps not with the best logic, its called being human

Its called being SELF not human

This is probably a certification issue. If human behaviour has changed so much that a few muppets now compromise existing certified evacuation procedures, then aircraft should be certified to reflect this new world order.

So new evacuation tests should allow for say 25% of passengers recovering their sad little bags from overheads when the evacuation timer starts.

Result.....less seats, more doors, wider aisles, different design slides.....more expensive airplanes and more expensive fares. Self, self, self.

I would rather not be the passenger (nor would I wish it on anyone else) who appears in an accident report photo found asphyxiated by smoke, lying behind a pile of roll ons and lap tops blocking the exit door just a few feet away.
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sq_ek_freak
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RE: BA 777 On Fire At Las Vegas - Part 2

Wed Sep 09, 2015 12:07 pm

For those who were saying that people should have been being directed after the evac, there's a video floating around filmed by one of the passengers (I think the link took me to instagram) where the guy is filming the scene (evac is over, looked like he went down the L4 chute) and you can see two BA cabin crew in their bare feet (on the LAS tarmac that couldn't have been comfortable) and torn hosiery going around shepherding people away from the aircraft and trying to keep them compact. One of them can be heard asking the group if they're alright and if everyone in their traveling party was accounted for. Don't know what more you can ask from your cabin crew in that situation - it would be like herding cats out on the tarmac I'd imagine, and it seems as though they did the best they could.
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frigatebird
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RE: BA 777 On Fire At Las Vegas - Part 2

Wed Sep 09, 2015 12:15 pm

Quoting 77west (Reply 7):
the wing tanks hold around 32 Tons each and I doubt the center tank would have had more than 15-20 tons in it, it looks the most damaged.

Not sure if someone mentioned it before, but I had memories of the CI 738 that caught fire just after landing. Good that fire fighters were on time and did their jobs (they have trained for exactly such an event probably a million times, but still it's different with a real plane and passengers running all over the place). With full tanks, an explosion like with the CI 738 could have been catastrophic.

Quoting 77west (Reply 7):
A write off for sure

Think so. It will be worth more in parts I expect.

Quoting 77west (Reply 9):
Amen to that

Absolutely agreed. Couldn't believe my eyes when I saw the pictures of pax with sometimes large carry ons on the tarmac.

Quoting Max Q (Reply 25):
Quoting SKAirbus (Reply 25):A solution would be to have a locking mechanism during take off and landing that prevents the opening of over-head lockers.That's an even worse idea, you'd have passengers staying on board desperately trying to open the overheads to get their bags and dying as a result.

Afraid so. It would block the aisles even worse, could result in lots of unnecessary casualties.

Quoting offloaded (Reply 26):
Passport and wallet would be handy

I keep it in my pouch under my shirt, never in any luggage on board.

Quoting scbriml (Reply 31):
Quoting Max Q (Reply 26):That's an even worse idea, you'd have passengers staying on board desperately trying to open the overheads to get their bags and dying as a result.Then I'd have no sympathy for the idiots.

Sadly, it's not the idiots that die. It's other people dying as a result of those idiots.

Quoting mattdell (Reply 47):
An interesting quote in here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-34194906Quote:"It was actually the pilot's penultimate flight before he retired - I think he will be retiring now, to be honest," she added.

Dont think so, I wouldn't like my last flight to end like this. One last one and end with a party, not a write off.
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Max Q
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RE: BA 777 On Fire At Las Vegas - Part 2

Wed Sep 09, 2015 12:17 pm

Quoting sq_ek_freak (Reply 73):
For those who were saying that people should have been being directed after the evac, there's a video floating around filmed by one of the passengers (I think the link took me to instagram) where the guy is filming the scene (evac is over, looked like he went down the L4 chute) and you can see two BA cabin crew in their bare feet (on the LAS tarmac that couldn't have been comfortable) and torn hosiery going around shepherding people away from the aircraft and trying to keep them compact. One of them can be heard asking the group if they're alright and if everyone in their traveling party was accounted for. Don't know what more you can ask from your cabin crew in that situation - it would be like herding cats out on the tarmac I'd imagine, and it seems as though they did the best they could.

Excellent BA crew, Pilots and Cabin, you couldn't ask for a better more professional response.


Disregarding all the other BS this crew was absolutely first rate and their passengers owe their lives to their superb
reactions.

[Edited 2015-09-09 05:24:24]
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321neoLR
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RE: BA 777 On Fire At Las Vegas - Part 2

Wed Sep 09, 2015 12:23 pm

Pretty major fire,

That burnt frame reminded me of the man 737. I'm not sure moving the aircraft into wind would have helped. Some airlines do, some don't.

Overall pretty textbook evacuation bu the entire crew.

BA training take a bow.

Well done, I think this video will be used in training for years to come
 
peterinlisbon
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RE: BA 777 On Fire At Las Vegas - Part 2

Wed Sep 09, 2015 12:25 pm

Wow. Looking at the damage and the photos of the aircraft on fire, I think they are lucky that the explosion didn't happen 10 seconds later once they were comitted to taking off because I wouldn't fancy their chances of getting it back down again safely. The other thing that strikes me is how people seem to be casually strolling away from the aircraft, which could have exploded violently at any moment (there was probably more than a 100 tons of fuel onboard and the engine and wing both on fire - I would run!!!!!).
 
Bongodog1964
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RE: BA 777 On Fire At Las Vegas - Part 2

Wed Sep 09, 2015 12:29 pm

Quoting Max Q (Reply 74):
Now back to your sad little life.

There are times I wish we could have an unrespected members function
Quoting breiz (Reply 59):
owever, and I do admit that one is always more clever after than during such an event, I wonder why a British crew most probably knowing about the Manchester disaster had not elected to veer the ac to face the wind.

I recall that one of the major factors in the loss of life at Manchester was that the pilot veered off the runway resulting in the fire burning directly onto the fuselage. Whilst pulling up straight would rarely be the ideal angle, it will generally result in the wind having a significant head on component. Better than turning and getting the wrong way.
 
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TheRedBaron
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RE: BA 777 On Fire At Las Vegas - Part 2

Wed Sep 09, 2015 12:37 pm

Quoting Max Q (Reply 25):
That's an even worse idea, you'd have passengers staying on board desperately trying to open the overheads to get their bags and dying as a result.

Well there is the Cooper Vane on the 727, these should be called the Darwin locks !!!

I have been to one evac, and other was not (the gear deployed so there was no emergency).

It was when pitch was 32 inches and aisles were 2 inches wider, when had 3 deadheading pilots and the crew and not a full single aisle aircraft (727-200) TOTAL CHAOS.

Those guys who think they Can could and would ..be able to to retrieve stuff and jump off the slide as walk in the park are WAY WAY wrong ...

Now on topic, I wonder if the engine failure happened after V2, the possibilities of a real disaster would have gone up exponentially, I think they were very lucky, and GE should be all over this to prevent this from happening again.


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Bongodog1964
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RE: BA 777 On Fire At Las Vegas - Part 2

Wed Sep 09, 2015 12:43 pm

Quoting TheRedBaron (Reply 80):
Now on topic, I wonder if the engine failure happened after V2, the possibilities of a real disaster would have gone up exponentially, I think they were very lucky, and GE should be all over this to prevent this from happening again.

If it had happened after V2, the plane would have been in flight, with the flames streaming to the rear of the engine below the wing. With an immediate cut to the fuel supply and use of the extinguishers it may have been kinder to the airframe than what happened, with no breach of the fuselage. I doubt the passengers would have seen it that way though.
 
shanxz
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RE: BA 777 On Fire At Las Vegas - Part 2

Wed Sep 09, 2015 12:48 pm

Quoting Gazdon121 (Reply 39):
BA have released a small statement

http://www.britishairways.com/travel...=5350

Pretty inadequate in today's day and age, where the whole incident practically played out Live on social media, that BA released a vanilla statement 8 hrs later. The BA Corp Coms team/HQ team missed a huge opportunity to engage with the media and others online, highlighting the stellar work done by their crew on the ground.
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EPA001
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RE: BA 777 On Fire At Las Vegas - Part 2

Wed Sep 09, 2015 12:56 pm

Quoting holzmann (Reply 66):
Perhaps we should start a different thread concerning luggage retrieval rules during evacuation.

That is a good idea.  .

Quoting holzmann (Reply 66):
But I believe we should redirect this discussion to the potential cause(s) of yesterday's accident. Let's get technical.

That is an even better idea.  .

Luckily no one was seriously hurt as a result of this fire. The aircraft looks to be a write off, especially since it is not a new B777 but a fairly old one.
 
B8887
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RE: BA 777 On Fire At Las Vegas - Part 2

Wed Sep 09, 2015 1:03 pm

Quoting TheRedBaron (Reply 79):
Now on topic, I wonder if the engine failure happened after V2, the possibilities of a real disaster would have gone up exponentially, I think they were very lucky, and GE should be all over this to prevent this from happening again.

Apparently the plane reached a max speed of 77kts, so well below V1, about half way down the take-off roll.

Regards.

B8887
 
Max Q
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RE: BA 777 On Fire At Las Vegas - Part 2

Wed Sep 09, 2015 1:03 pm

Quoting TheRedBaron (Reply 79):
Well there is the Cooper Vane on the 727, these should be called the Darwin locks !!!

What does that have to do with this accident ?

Quoting TheRedBaron (Reply 79):
Those guys who think they Can could and would ..be able to to retrieve stuff and jump off the slide as walk in the park are WAY WAY wrong ...

Not sure how you define 'wrong' but people do this all the time in evacuations, best to just plan on it.

Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 80):
If it had happened after V2, the plane would have been in flight, with the flames streaming to the rear of the engine below the wing. With an immediate cut to the fuel supply and use of the extinguishers it may have been kinder to the airframe than what happened, with no breach of the fuselage. I doubt the passengers would have seen it that way though.

I think you're dreaming, take a look at the massive fire in the Concorde crash to see how flames behave in flight and then look at the massive damage this triple 7 sustained.


If this aircraft had become airborne It would not have been able to sustain the resultant uncontrolled fire (it was only extinguished by emergency services) and I believe it would have been lost before it could return.
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Polot
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RE: BA 777 On Fire At Las Vegas - Part 2

Wed Sep 09, 2015 1:20 pm

Doesn't anyone else see the irony in how hard some people here complain about pax taking their bags in all these incidents/accidents where everyone makes it out of the plane safely? Every time there is it at least one passenger with a bag, and every time we have A.net's baggage-during-evac brigade out in full force proclaiming how they would never ever act irrationally in a high stress, panic, fight-or-flight situation.

I mean, passengers shouldn't take their bags as it increases the risk of delaying and slowing evacuation, but maybe we should wait until we have a stream of accidents in which people died because others were busy retrieving their luggage before we start considering things like locking overhead bins for takeoff/landing.

[Edited 2015-09-09 06:20:47]
 
flyenthu
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RE: BA 777 On Fire At Las Vegas - Part 2

Wed Sep 09, 2015 1:20 pm

Wow, looks like a real close shave. Happy that everyone's safe. These international flights do a relatively quick turnaround, and so it is difficult to fathom what could go so wrong right at takeoff after an uneventful flight to LAS.

Just speculating here: had there been an engine ingestion at early roll, wouldn't it have been noticed earlier? Seems like the plane had rolled out quite a bit but not to V1?
 
apfpilot
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RE: BA 777 On Fire At Las Vegas - Part 2

Wed Sep 09, 2015 1:22 pm

Would it really have exploded at any point? Jet A is pretty benign stuff until it is misted and heated. I suppose any vapors in the tanks could have caused an explosion though.

When I worked as a line guy (when I was young and dumb) we used to freak out the new guys by dropping our cigarettes into a bucket of Jet A. Wouldn't do anything just extinguish the ember.
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Bongodog1964
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RE: BA 777 On Fire At Las Vegas - Part 2

Wed Sep 09, 2015 1:22 pm

Quoting shanxz (Reply 81):
Quoting Gazdon121 (Reply 39):
BA have released a small statement

http://www.britishairways.com/travel...=5350

Pretty inadequate in today's day and age, where the whole incident practically played out Live on social media, that BA released a vanilla statement 8 hrs later. The BA Corp Coms team/HQ team missed a huge opportunity to engage with the media and others online, highlighting the stellar work done by their crew on the ground.

I'd far rather they concentrated on the immediate matters in hand, rather than social media.

Quoting Max Q (Reply 84):
Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 80):
If it had happened after V2, the plane would have been in flight, with the flames streaming to the rear of the engine below the wing. With an immediate cut to the fuel supply and use of the extinguishers it may have been kinder to the airframe than what happened, with no breach of the fuselage. I doubt the passengers would have seen it that way though.

I think you're dreaming, take a look at the massive fire in the Concorde crash to see how flames behave in flight and then look at the massive damage this triple 7 sustained.

Totally different design, Concorde had embedded engines in a Delta wing, a 777 has engines in a pod way below wing level. There are many instances of planes with podded engines surviving uncontained failures. Personally I think you are dreaming.
 
SKAirbus
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RE: BA 777 On Fire At Las Vegas - Part 2

Wed Sep 09, 2015 1:25 pm

So.. I've done some research into stats. It's a bit back of a fag packet but here we go:

As of July 2015 1320 777s (all types) have been delivered and the wide assumption is that the BA aircraft at LAS is a constructive total loss so that brings the total number of 777 hull losses to 6:

17/01/2008 - BA38 at LHR
29/07/2011 - MS667 at CAI
06/07/2013 - OZ214 at SFO
08/03/2014 - MH370 missing after departure from KUL
17/07/2014 - MH17 shot down over Ukraine
08/09/2015 - BA2276 at LAS

BA (had) a fleet of 55 aircraft, which accounts for approx 4% of all deliveries, with MS, OZ and MH having operated 11, 12 and 15 aircraft respectively (about 1% of the world fleet each) - So all 6 hull losses occured in airlines that account for 7% of the global 777 fleet.

As such the hull loss incidents are spread thusly in percentage terms:

- BA: 33%
- MH: 33%
- MS: 17%
- OZ: 17%

This is just a very quick and general overview but it is intersting to note that BA lost just under 4% of it's 777 fleet in hull losses (if the LAS incident is to be included) whilst MH lost 13% of its. The MH incidents were crashes (one shot down and one missing over the ocean) whilst the BA incidents both appear to be engine related.

I'm not suggesting BA has issues with maitenance - in fact I suspect it is just fluke. The same goes for MH, where the two incidents cannot have been related, making it one of the most tragic coincidences of our time.

Yet, airlines such as Emirates who operate 150+ of 777s have never suffered a hull loss.

Anyway, as I said the figures are purely estimates but give some sort of statistical idea.
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aw70
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RE: BA 777 On Fire At Las Vegas - Part 2

Wed Sep 09, 2015 1:28 pm

Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 80):
If it had happened after V2, the plane would have been in flight, with the flames streaming to the rear of the engine below the wing. With an immediate cut to the fuel supply and use of the extinguishers it may have been kinder to the airframe than what happened, with no breach of the fuselage. I doubt the passengers would have seen it that way though.

Pure speculation here of course - but given how major that fire was, and how fast it spread, I have a hard time believing that the initial damage was confined to the engine itself. In other words: probably a number of things besides the actual engine were punctured, and pretty much immediately started to burn. And *that* can end very messily once you are airborne. See also how the Concorde thing played out, back in 2000.
 
B8887
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RE: BA 777 On Fire At Las Vegas - Part 2

Wed Sep 09, 2015 1:28 pm

Quoting apfpilot (Reply 87):
When I worked as a line guy (when I was young and dumb) we used to freak out the new guys by dropping our cigarettes into a bucket of Jet A. Wouldn't do anything just extinguish the ember.

Very interesting, although probably not the wisest thing to do for fun. Does regular car gasoline ignite on contact with a cigarette?

Regards.

B8887
 
Gazdon121
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RE: BA 777 On Fire At Las Vegas - Part 2

Wed Sep 09, 2015 1:29 pm

Quoting shanxz (Reply 81):

yes they did release the statement 8 or so hours after it had happened but most people in the UK was waking up to the news and a delay could mean they wanted the FACTS first before saying anything on the matter
 
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moo
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RE: BA 777 On Fire At Las Vegas - Part 2

Wed Sep 09, 2015 1:30 pm

Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 88):
Concorde had embedded engines in a Delta wing

Concordes engines were in a pod below the wing, they were not embedded in the wing. The oinly difference is Concordes engines shared a pod and were not on a pylon but directly mounted to the underneath of the wing.
 
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breiz
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RE: BA 777 On Fire At Las Vegas - Part 2

Wed Sep 09, 2015 1:34 pm

Quoting moo (Reply 61):
Better to get the passengers out than reposition the aircraft. It was the delay in evacuation which killed the passengers at Manchester, not the position of the aircraft.

For the records, from the accident report:
"The fire which resulted developed catastrophically, primarily because of adverse orientation of the parked aircraft relative to the wind, even though the wind was light. Major contributory factors were the vulnerability of the wing tank access panels to impact, a lack of any effective provision for fighting major fires inside the aircraft cabin, the vulnerability of the aircraft hull to external fire and the extremely toxic nature of the emissions from the burning interior materials. The major cause of the fatalities was rapid incapacitation due to the inhalation of the dense toxic/irritant smoke atmosphere within the cabin, aggravated by evacuation delays caused by a forward right door malfunction and restricted access to the exits."
 
Chaostheory
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RE: BA 777 On Fire At Las Vegas - Part 2

Wed Sep 09, 2015 1:37 pm

Quoting sq_ek_freak (Reply 73):
For those who were saying that people should have been being directed after the evac, there's a video floating around filmed by one of the passengers (I think the link took me to instagram) where the guy is filming the scene (evac is over, looked like he went down the L4 chute) and you can see two BA cabin crew in their bare feet (on the LAS tarmac that couldn't have been comfortable) and torn hosiery going around shepherding people away from the aircraft and trying to keep them compact. One of them can be heard asking the group if they're alright and if everyone in their traveling party was accounted for. Don't know what more you can ask from your cabin crew in that situation - it would be like herding cats out on the tarmac I'd imagine, and it seems as though they did the best they could.

I wasn't criticisng the BA crew.

As I said, it's clear from past incidents that incident managers on the ground (read airport operators) need a clear plan of action to get passengers away and kept away from active ARFF operations. It is clear from some videos taken that post evacuation, this didn't happen for some time.

Also, having listened to a CVR where miscommunication and delays led to 300 people succumbing to smoke and fire, I have nothing but praise for this crew.
 
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cougar15
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RE: BA 777 On Fire At Las Vegas - Part 2

Wed Sep 09, 2015 1:37 pm

Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 37):
I would be very hesitant in making a firm statement in either direction. Each and every accident is different. The 744 you mention was older and part of a fleet that BA had already started to scrap. I recall that though the damage looked on the face of it less severe, the mainspar was badly damaged. In addition the plane was a long long way from its place of manufacture.

Forget it, it´s fried in some pretty awkward places and will not fly again, simple as that! you are not gonna repair a 772 in todays economy with that sort of damage! Nuff sayed, she aint going nowhere again!
some you lose, others you can´t win!
 
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qf789
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RE: BA 777 On Fire At Las Vegas - Part 2

Wed Sep 09, 2015 1:38 pm

Quoting holzmann (Reply 66):
Perhaps we should start a different thread concerning luggage retrieval rules during evacuation.

I have started a thread concerning luggage retrieval rules during evacuation

Emergency Evacuation Luggage Retrieval Rules (by qf789 Sep 9 2015 in Civil Aviation)
Forum Moderator
 
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MrHMSH
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RE: BA 777 On Fire At Las Vegas - Part 2

Wed Sep 09, 2015 1:40 pm

Quoting Polot (Reply 85):
Doesn't anyone else see the irony in how hard some people here complain about pax taking their bags in all these incidents/accidents where everyone makes it out of the plane safely?

Pax made it out of the plane safely despite taking their bags. The fire probably didn't get too far into the fuselage before everyone got off, but we're perfectly entitled to criticise people for taking baggage. People who take baggae cost seconds for themselves, but more importantly for people behind, and while the circumstances here allowed people to get off safely with baggage, you can't always bet on a half full low density 777 on a first class airline for safety. A 10 abreast 773/77W that was chock full and had people taking baggage would take longer to evacuate, and longer can mean death very easily, every second matters.
 
washingtonflyer
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RE: BA 777 On Fire At Las Vegas - Part 2

Wed Sep 09, 2015 1:47 pm

Video of the ARFF response. Didn't see this elsewhere.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=stsMzxKrr6Q#t=10
 
Max Q
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RE: BA 777 On Fire At Las Vegas - Part 2

Wed Sep 09, 2015 1:49 pm

Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 88):
Totally different design, Concorde had embedded engines in a Delta wing, a 777 has engines in a pod way below wing level. There are many instances of planes with podded engines surviving uncontained failures. Personally I think you are dreaming.

Have you seen the damage to this Triple 7 ?


And this was with full emergency services responding immediately to the uncontrollable fire. The nacelle bottles made no difference at all.


Whether the engine is podded or not is completely irrelevant in this kind of a fire, I don't think you understand the forces involved with an uncontained failure of a GE90.


That fire would have spread uncontrollably in flight with nothing to stop it, its not going to 'blow out' and I believe the aircraft would have been lost.
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


Guns are a malignant cancer that are destroying our society
 
washingtonflyer
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RE: BA 777 On Fire At Las Vegas - Part 2

Wed Sep 09, 2015 1:56 pm

Quoting B8887 (Reply 83):
Apparently the plane reached a max speed of 77kts, so well below V1, about half way down the take-off roll.

Regards.

Based on the video and what else I've seen, it looks like the plane stopped in the vicinity of A6 or A5 off of 7L.
 
a380787
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RE: BA 777 On Fire At Las Vegas - Part 2

Wed Sep 09, 2015 1:56 pm

Quoting SKAirbus (Reply 89):
whilst the BA incidents both appear to be engine related.

I'm not suggesting BA has issues with maintenance - in fact I suspect it is just fluke.

If it issue yesterday is engine-related, as you allege and we suspect, then isn't that in fact "maintenance" ? Fluke or not, it was serious enough we cannot simply brush it aside as some of random misfortune.
 
727LOVER
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RE: BA 777 On Fire At Las Vegas - Part 2

Wed Sep 09, 2015 1:57 pm

Quoting SKAirbus (Reply 89):
29/07/2011 - MS667 at CAI

Sorry, but what was this incident?
"We must accept finite disappointment, but never lose infinite hope." - Martin Luther King, Jr.

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