mjoelnir
Posts: 9202
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:06 pm

RE: AA Flies Non-ETOPS Equipment To HI

Wed Sep 16, 2015 2:20 pm

Quoting raventech (Reply 149):

The answer is simple, cover up revealed, immediate suspension of ETOPS certification for the airline, hundreds of flights stuck somewhere in the world and/or hours delay. What frames have been on what trips stays on the record.

How do you hinder an airline from installing bad procedures, perhaps the new streamlined one with less time consuming paperwork with makes bean counters happy? You can wait for it to fail and you still have the fallback of self reporting if something goes wrong. How many flights have been done already with non ETOPS frames on ETOPS routes where nobody realized that something went wrong?

Self reporting is usually only the difference between paying a reasonable fine or getting the big big hammer.

If we go over to taxes, self reporting produces a fine instead of a prison sentence.
 
AAR90
Posts: 3140
Joined: Fri Jan 21, 2000 11:51 am

RE: AA Flies Non-ETOPS Equipment To HI

Wed Sep 16, 2015 5:40 pm

Quoting diverdave (Reply 148):
I have read those responses to indicate that AAR90 does not have direct knowledge of what has or has not been fixed, as evidenced by the below quote which begins with the word reportedly.

I have direct knowledge of what AA management is telling its line pilots (I am a line pilot). Management will not tell front-line employees everything and nobody should expect management to tell anybody --beside other relevant managers-- everything. Were I in management, I would do the same --to include not posting anything on a.net.

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 150):
The answer is simple, cover up revealed, immediate suspension of ETOPS certification for the airline,

Where did all this "cover up" talk come from? That DID NOT HAPPEN ! ! ! My suggestion is that if one wishes to discuss "cover up" (even hypothetically) then start your own discussion topic where one can theorize to all one wants.
*NO CARRIER* -- A Naval Aviator's worst nightmare!
 
mjoelnir
Posts: 9202
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:06 pm

RE: AA Flies Non-ETOPS Equipment To HI

Wed Sep 16, 2015 8:13 pm

Quoting AAR90 (Reply 151):
Where did all this "cover up" talk come from? That DID NOT HAPPEN ! ! ! My suggestion is that if one wishes to discuss "cover up" (even hypothetically) then start your own discussion topic where one can theorize to all one wants.

You said with other words that if this incident would lead to a fine airlines would move to not reporting those incidents.
 
kalvado
Posts: 2282
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2006 4:29 am

RE: AA Flies Non-ETOPS Equipment To HI

Wed Sep 16, 2015 8:38 pm

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 150):

The answer is simple, cover up revealed, immediate suspension of ETOPS certification for the airline, hundreds of flights stuck somewhere in the world and/or hours delay. What frames have been on what trips stays on the record.

You are being too nice!
I suggest public execution of all management, life in jail for all pilots, 25 years jail for the rest of employers, equipment auction off!
[irony=off]
 
AAR90
Posts: 3140
Joined: Fri Jan 21, 2000 11:51 am

RE: AA Flies Non-ETOPS Equipment To HI

Wed Sep 16, 2015 8:40 pm

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 152):
You said with other words that if this incident would lead to a fine airlines would move to not reporting those incidents.

Sorry, but I never talked about a "cover up" and nothing I wrote should lead a person using common sense to even be discussing a "cover up."
*NO CARRIER* -- A Naval Aviator's worst nightmare!
 
mjoelnir
Posts: 9202
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:06 pm

RE: AA Flies Non-ETOPS Equipment To HI

Wed Sep 16, 2015 9:22 pm

Quoting AAR90 (Reply 154):
Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 152):
You said with other words that if this incident would lead to a fine airlines would move to not reporting those incidents.

Sorry, but I never talked about a "cover up" and nothing I wrote should lead a person using common sense to even be discussing a "cover up."
Quoting AAR90 (Reply 114):
Quoting diverdave (Reply 110):
I'm thinking it will be a sizable fine.

IF the FAA proposed a fine, you will see ALL self-reporting cease IMMEDIATELY.

AAR90, please translate your comment in reply 114.
 
wn676
Posts: 1720
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2005 5:33 am

RE: AA Flies Non-ETOPS Equipment To HI

Wed Sep 16, 2015 10:08 pm

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 155):
AAR90, please translate your comment in reply 114.

That doesn't imply anything about a cover-up, just that airlines will stop self-reporting.
Tiny, unreadable text leaves ample room for interpretation.
 
mjoelnir
Posts: 9202
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:06 pm

RE: AA Flies Non-ETOPS Equipment To HI

Wed Sep 16, 2015 11:01 pm

Quoting wn676 (Reply 156):
That doesn't imply anything about a cover-up, just that airlines will stop self-reporting.

What exactly is the difference between stopping self reporting and doing a cover up?
 
AAR90
Posts: 3140
Joined: Fri Jan 21, 2000 11:51 am

RE: AA Flies Non-ETOPS Equipment To HI

Wed Sep 16, 2015 11:03 pm

Quoting wn676 (Reply 156):

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 155):
AAR90, please translate your comment in reply 114.

That doesn't imply anything about a cover-up, just that airlines will stop self-reporting.

Answered better and in fewer words than I was considering.

mjoelnir, if you think that comment somewhere implies a cover-up... I can't help you. It is clear you do not understand how safety programs operate and the success/failure history of FAA "enforcement action" vs. "preventative action."
End of that line of discussion for me.
*NO CARRIER* -- A Naval Aviator's worst nightmare!
 
mjoelnir
Posts: 9202
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:06 pm

RE: AA Flies Non-ETOPS Equipment To HI

Wed Sep 16, 2015 11:43 pm

Quoting AAR90 (Reply 158):

For me not reporting a failure, accident and so one equals cover up. Not reporting is just a nicer phrase.
 
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airportugal310
Posts: 3520
Joined: Sun Apr 11, 2004 12:49 pm

RE: AA Flies Non-ETOPS Equipment To HI

Thu Sep 17, 2015 12:04 am

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 159):
For me not reporting a failure, accident and so one equals cover up. Not reporting is just a nicer phrase.

Just because you said it three or four times doesn't make it a fact
“They bought their tickets, they knew what they were getting into. I say, let 'em crash.”
 
mjoelnir
Posts: 9202
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:06 pm

RE: AA Flies Non-ETOPS Equipment To HI

Thu Sep 17, 2015 12:48 am

Quoting Airportugal310 (Reply 160):
Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 159):
For me not reporting a failure, accident and so one equals cover up. Not reporting is just a nicer phrase.

Just because you said it three or four times doesn't make it a fact

Merriam-Webster on line dictionary: cover up: "an action or a way of behaving that is meant to prevent people from knowing about something"

If you could now explain how non reporting does not fit under the above description?
 
maxpower1954
Posts: 1067
Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 1:14 am

RE: AA Flies Non-ETOPS Equipment To HI

Thu Sep 17, 2015 1:03 am

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 161):
Merriam-Webster on line dictionary: cover up: "an action or a way of behaving that is meant to prevent people from knowing about something"

Does this mean the next time I inadvertently exceed the speed limit or forget to renew my auto insurance I have to turn myself in to the authorities? That's a pretty broad definition.
 
kalvado
Posts: 2282
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2006 4:29 am

RE: AA Flies Non-ETOPS Equipment To HI

Thu Sep 17, 2015 1:21 am

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 161):

Merriam-Webster on line dictionary: cover up: "an action or a way of behaving that is meant to prevent people from knowing about something"

If you could now explain how non reporting does not fit under the above description?

I am not sure if there is similar law in your country (although I would bet there is) - but in US there is Fifth Amendment to the Constitution, saying
No person .... shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself
So refusal to provide self-incriminating information is not considered a cover-up, and while constitutional amendment is not directly applicable to company-government relations, you may draw some parallels...
 
mjoelnir
Posts: 9202
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:06 pm

RE: AA Flies Non-ETOPS Equipment To HI

Thu Sep 17, 2015 2:00 am

Quoting kalvado (Reply 163):
I am not sure if there is similar law in your country (although I would bet there is) - but in US there is Fifth Amendment to the Constitution, saying
No person .... shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself
So refusal to provide self-incriminating information is not considered a cover-up, and while constitutional amendment is not directly applicable to company-government relations, you may draw some parallels...

There are numerous laws were a non reporting of an incident is a criminal act also in your country. And I am pretty sure that non reporting of of using a non ETOPS frame on an ETOPS trip with passengers is an incident were the regulator insist of mandatory reporting.
But taking the fifth can involve cover up or not?

And it is telling how somebody can compare flying an air plane not licenced for that use on that route to a speeding ticket.

And all this started with somebody talking about that AA should be fined, were I agree, and the vehement rejection of any fine, because then nobody would ever again self report.
 
N628AU
Posts: 374
Joined: Wed Oct 18, 2000 4:20 am

RE: AA Flies Non-ETOPS Equipment To HI

Thu Sep 17, 2015 3:23 am

Cover up means taking a direct action. For example if someone were to go back and destroy, alter, or delete data and records to prevent someone looking from finding the truth. For example wiping a file server with classified data.

Stopping self reporting only puts the onus on another party to find out something happened. Any change to give someone less incentive to self report would put many more lives in potential jeopardy.
 
mjoelnir
Posts: 9202
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:06 pm

RE: AA Flies Non-ETOPS Equipment To HI

Thu Sep 17, 2015 9:53 am

Quoting N628AU (Reply 165):

Cover up means taking a direct action.

NO!

Merriam-Webster on line dictionary: cover up: "an action or a way of behaving that is meant to prevent people from knowing about something"

Non reporting is a behavior, that definition is quite broad. I think I trust Merriam-Webster more than you.
 
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XAM2175
Posts: 1156
Joined: Thu Oct 30, 2014 2:25 pm

RE: AA Flies Non-ETOPS Equipment To HI

Thu Sep 17, 2015 12:19 pm

There could be a difference between the "proper" and "commonly-accepted" meanings for the phrase here.

For example, by that definition one would be guilty of a cover-up if they had driven through a red traffic signal or something like that and then, having gotten away with it, neglected to mention it to the next police officer they came across. But you would be very hard pressed to find somebody who'd apply the term "cover up" to that example.

In the AA case by the same popular definition - simply not telling the FAA verses actively preventing the FAA from finding out would be considered differently, with the latter path being the one that would be called a "cover up". Changing the records to show that an ETOPS frame had operated the flight and swearing the crew to secrecy? Definitely a cover up.

It's all rather moot though since AA did the right thing by proactively reporting the incident.
 
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par13del
Posts: 9554
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:14 pm

RE: AA Flies Non-ETOPS Equipment To HI

Thu Sep 17, 2015 12:32 pm

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 166):
Non reporting is a behavior, that definition is quite broad. I think I trust Merriam-Webster more than you.

Unfortunately for the majority of the citizens of the world, the laws / rules / regulations that the politicians use to govern and rule us do not go by that definition.

Quoting maxpower1954 (Reply 162):
Does this mean the next time I inadvertently exceed the speed limit or forget to renew my auto insurance I have to turn myself in to the authorities? That's a pretty broad definition.

As this is an aviation site, let's stick to our calling.
We know the A350 delivery is slow, some say it was always intended, we hear rumours of parts being re-designed for reliability, so since nothing official has been released, does this mean that a cover up of the A350 issues is taking place?
Of course we can dismiss this by simply saying that Airbus is under no obligations to report anything to us  
 
maxpower1954
Posts: 1067
Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 1:14 am

RE: AA Flies Non-ETOPS Equipment To HI

Thu Sep 17, 2015 1:06 pm

Quoting par13del (Reply 168):
Quoting maxpower1954 (Reply 162):
Does this mean the next time I inadvertently exceed the speed limit or forget to renew my auto insurance I have to turn myself in to the authorities? That's a pretty broad definition.

As this is an aviation site, let's stick to our calling.

No problem. During descent passing through 10,000 feet at TPA several months ago, I exceeded the 250 knot speed limit by over 50 knots due to a distraction issue. ATC didn't say anything and the F/O didn't notice my mistake either. And to be clear, this is a real world example that happened to me and not some A-net fantasy.

Do I...

A. Turn myself in to an FAA inspector for my inadvertent violation and hope for kindness and understanding.

B. Do nothing and be complicit in a cover-up as defined by some on this site.

C. File a NASA safety report and add to the knowledge base to help prevent similar incidents from recurring, and by the act of filing the report gain protection against FAA enforcement action for this particular incident.
 
kalvado
Posts: 2282
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2006 4:29 am

RE: AA Flies Non-ETOPS Equipment To HI

Thu Sep 17, 2015 3:27 pm

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 164):
There are numerous laws were a non reporting of an incident is a criminal act also in your country. And I am pretty sure that non reporting of of using a non ETOPS frame on an ETOPS trip with passengers is an incident were the regulator insist of mandatory reporting.

That would only lead to situation, when nobody would "notice" the problem - aka leave any paper trail - until (and if) FAA points out that mistake. Changes made to dispatch software would address the problem.... by a pure coincidence.
Overall a loose-loose for everyone.

Key point - what do you actually want achieve in the long run?

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