Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
Deltabravo1123
Topic Author
Posts: 265
Joined: Sat Jul 12, 2014 3:32 am

Did The 727 Ever Fly Tatl?

Tue Sep 15, 2015 2:28 am

My mom lived in Paris during her teenage years between 1976 and 1980. She traveled back to the states multiple times every year along with her mom. She swears that she flew from CDG to the US on multiple occasions on board a TWA 727. She claims that it was a narrow-body aircraft with 3-3 and 3-2 seating. I had always believed her until I recently saw the range of the 727... and to my surprise it doesn't seem like it's nearly enough to make it across the Atlantic. Now, I can't remember exactly where I heard this next bit of information from, but I had believed it for a long time as well: the 727 was frequently used on TATL flights since it had three engines which excluded it from ETOPS restrictions. This is why I never questioned her saying that she flew 727s from CDG-USA. However, now I am doubtful as to the truth behind her claims. Did any carriers fly the 727 on TATL flights regularly? Even perhaps with a stopover in Canada/Iceland/UK? I have been trying to find information about TATL 727 operations and my research brings up very little information that satisfies my inquiries. I have read that United operated a small hub at LHR and CDG and flew the 727 on a few intra-Europe flights before stopping them. I have also seen pictures in the database of some TWA 727s at various airports in Europe so I know for a fact that at one point TWA did send the 727 to Europe for some reason.

Any information at all is appreciated!
 
n9801f
Posts: 209
Joined: Tue Apr 13, 2004 8:29 am

RE: Did The 727 Ever Fly Tatl?

Tue Sep 15, 2015 2:35 am

During the -70's, TWA flew some 707's trans-Atlantic. These had 3-3 seating in economy. Maybe this is what your mom took?

[Edited 2015-09-14 19:36:12]
 
Deltabravo1123
Topic Author
Posts: 265
Joined: Sat Jul 12, 2014 3:32 am

RE: Did The 727 Ever Fly Tatl?

Tue Sep 15, 2015 2:42 am

Quoting n9801f (Reply 1):
During the -70's, TWA flew some 707's trans-Atlantic. These had 3-3 seating in economy. Maybe this is what your mom took?

It very well could be actually. She says she distinctly remembers them saying "727" on the plane though... She flew back and forth at least 20 times during her time in France so she probably flew on just about everything that was flying TATL at the time.
 
User avatar
vatveng
Posts: 1255
Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2004 11:49 pm

RE: Did The 727 Ever Fly Tatl?

Tue Sep 15, 2015 2:46 am

Quoting deltabravo1123 (Thread starter):
I have also seen pictures in the database of some TWA 727s at various airports in Europe so I know for a fact that at one point TWA did send the 727 to Europe for some reason.

TWA had a European route network in the 1980s and used the 727 for that operation.
TWA's European Routes (by Cody Aug 17 1999 in Civil Aviation)

[Edited 2015-09-14 19:47:41]
 
crownvic
Posts: 2664
Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2004 10:16 pm

RE: Did The 727 Ever Fly Tatl?

Tue Sep 15, 2015 2:47 am

The only 727 operators that I recall flying trans-Atlantic were Wardair 727-100s (to Canada), and I believe Sterling may have ran some charters with their 722s. I don't recall any U.S. carrier (aside from Nomads) flying 727s across the pond.

[Edited 2015-09-14 19:48:05]
 
User avatar
longhauler
Posts: 6489
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 12:00 am

RE: Did The 727 Ever Fly Tatl?

Tue Sep 15, 2015 2:47 am

The only airlines I can think of off hand that flew regularily scheduled B727 trans-Atlantic flights are Wardair and Sterling. But there is no way these aircraft could have, (nor did) fly across the Atlantic non-stop.

That would be the kicker for your Mom. If it was non-stop, then it was not a B727.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
User avatar
GCT64
Posts: 1826
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2007 6:34 pm

RE: Did The 727 Ever Fly Tatl?

Tue Sep 15, 2015 2:51 am

Transatlantic 727. Possible? (by Turbolet Dec 24 2002 in Tech Ops)

Short answer: Yes, some airlines did e.g. Sterling. But not TWA (except to position to Europe for intra-Europe flights)
Flown in: A20N,A21N,A30B,A306,A310,A319,A320,A321,A332,A333,A343,A346,A359,A388,BA11,BU31,(..56 more types..),VC10,WESX
 
KFLLCFII
Posts: 3548
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 7:08 am

RE: Did The 727 Ever Fly Tatl?

Tue Sep 15, 2015 3:59 am

Quoting deltabravo1123 (Reply 2):


Quoting n9801f:

During the -70's, TWA flew some 707's trans-Atlantic. These had 3-3 seating in economy. Maybe this is what your mom took?

It very well could be actually. She says she distinctly remembers them saying "727" on the plane though...

To add to n9801f's comment, maybe they actually said "707-120" or "707-320", and the "20" part is what her mind focused on?
"About the only way to look at it, just a pity you are not POTUS KFLLCFII, seems as if we would all be better off."
 
User avatar
rikkus67
Posts: 1336
Joined: Fri Jun 09, 2000 11:34 am

RE: Did The 727 Ever Fly Tatl?

Tue Sep 15, 2015 6:43 am

Wardair regularily served the charter market (late 60's- mid-70's) from Canada to Gatwick.


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © R.A.Scholefield

AC.WA.CP.DL.RW.CO.WG.WJ.WN.KI.FL.SK.ACL.UA.US.F9
 
skipness1E
Posts: 4783
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 9:18 am

RE: Did The 727 Ever Fly Tatl?

Tue Sep 15, 2015 6:57 am

Wardair also flew B727s to GLA and possibly PIK.
 
User avatar
yyz717
Posts: 15775
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2001 12:26 pm

RE: Did The 727 Ever Fly Tatl?

Tue Sep 15, 2015 7:49 am

Quoting GCT64 (Reply 6):
Short answer: Yes, some airlines did e.g. Sterling.
Quoting skipness1e (Reply 9):
Wardair also flew B727s to GLA and possibly PIK.

In addition to Sterling and WD, in the early 90s Royal Airlines flew YYZ-Tallinn via KEF with the 722 on a weekly summer charter service.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
User avatar
N14AZ
Posts: 4137
Joined: Sat Feb 24, 2007 10:19 pm

RE: Did The 727 Ever Fly Tatl?

Tue Sep 15, 2015 7:58 am

I once saw an Evergreen B 727-100 in Frankfurt, IIRC she was transporting journalists because of a state visit of the US-American president to Germany.

From time to time I saw spotted some private jets with N-registration in FRA in the 80ies - Occidental Petroleum and United Technoligies come to my mind....


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Frank C. Duarte Jr.


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Gerard Helmer



Furthermore, Miami Air 727s have been spotted several times in FRA. I wasn't active at that time anymore, so I am not sure but I think they made MAC flights to / from the air base.

And last but not least ATA was in FRA at least twice with their 727-200s.
 
User avatar
Mortyman
Posts: 5832
Joined: Sat Aug 12, 2006 8:26 pm

RE: Did The 727 Ever Fly Tatl?

Tue Sep 15, 2015 9:16 am

Danish charter airline Sterling Airways in Toronto 1982, 1987, 1988 ,1989 and 1992 with their Boeing 727-200 Adv. aircraft:



View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Gary Vincent
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Robert M. Campbell


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Marc Hasenbein
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Den Pascoe


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © John Kelley





There is also a picture of a Sterling Airways Boeing 727-200 Adv. in Rio de Janeiro ... Don't know how it got there and if it was a regulare flight or a delivery flight ...


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Daniel R.Carneiro

 
SpaceshipDC10
Posts: 7001
Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2013 11:44 am

RE: Did The 727 Ever Fly Tatl?

Tue Sep 15, 2015 9:43 am

Quoting longhauler (Reply 5):
The only airlines I can think of off hand that flew regularily scheduled B727 trans-Atlantic flights are Wardair and Sterling.

I believe Sun Country also flew the 727 from BOS to PDL.
 
jetset
Posts: 325
Joined: Thu Jun 21, 2001 3:24 am

RE: Did The 727 Ever Fly Tatl?

Tue Sep 15, 2015 9:45 am

Back in the 80s and 90s Gander saw regular TATL B727s stopping for fuel from many different airlines. These included Royal, Fedex, Evergreen, American Trans Air, Nomads, Gulf Air Transport, Trans Ocean, Miami Air, Sun Country, Falcon Air Express, Air Columbus and Sterling. Many other non regular B727s also stopped there.
Jetset
 
okay
Posts: 642
Joined: Tue Dec 12, 2006 10:11 pm

RE: Did The 727 Ever Fly Tatl?

Tue Sep 15, 2015 10:06 am

TWA did have a 727 fleet based in Europe, I think it was FCO? Even the infamous TWA flight 847 happened on their 727. I must admit I was under the impression there were TATL traffic on 727s, but I have no hard facts to back this up. Could some 727 carry extra fuel tanks or something similar?
 
Birdwatching
Posts: 3711
Joined: Sat Sep 06, 2003 10:48 am

RE: Did The 727 Ever Fly Tatl?

Tue Sep 15, 2015 10:16 am

Did Icelandair ever fly their 727s to the US or Canada? All the photos I find in the database are from Europe.


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Ian Oswald (via Martin Stephen)



Soren   
All the things you probably hate about travelling are warm reminders that I'm home
 
sevenheavy
Posts: 961
Joined: Tue Mar 23, 2004 3:30 am

RE: Did The 727 Ever Fly Tatl?

Tue Sep 15, 2015 11:48 am

TWA had B727-100's based at FRA and CDG for intra European flights. Usually tag ons from transatlantic services from JFK, BOS, IAD, PHL and others.

They also had the IGS services for a while as above.

The routes varied but they visited GVA, ZRH, VIE, LHR, ATH, FCO and others.

CDG was a TWA hub (albeit a small one) and had up to 3 B727-100 based there. Maybe that's where the idea originated?
So long 701, it was nice knowing you.
 
PATristar
Posts: 135
Joined: Mon Aug 26, 2013 2:19 pm

RE: Did The 727 Ever Fly Tatl?

Tue Sep 15, 2015 11:58 am

Could some TWA 707 had a problem and then they allocated a 727 for the route?
 
jfk777
Posts: 7338
Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2006 7:23 am

RE: Did The 727 Ever Fly Tatl?

Tue Sep 15, 2015 12:07 pm

The most Transatlantic 727 was the Occidental Petrolium jet of the late CEO Armand Hammer. He was always going to Russia to meet with the Soviet Premiers. Its more accurate to say it was "Hammer Force One".
 
sevenheavy
Posts: 961
Joined: Tue Mar 23, 2004 3:30 am

RE: Did The 727 Ever Fly Tatl?

Tue Sep 15, 2015 12:09 pm

Quoting PATristar (Reply 18):

No. They couldn't do transatlantic. Even when ferrying back empty for MX or swapping they had to make a stop. At the time I don't think the B727-100 fleet were even equipped for overwater ops
So long 701, it was nice knowing you.
 
User avatar
Mortyman
Posts: 5832
Joined: Sat Aug 12, 2006 8:26 pm

RE: Did The 727 Ever Fly Tatl?

Tue Sep 15, 2015 12:59 pm

Quoting okay (Reply 15):
TWA did have a 727 fleet based in Europe

Pan Am also had such Boeing 727-200's based in Europe. However these were only for feeder flights between various cities in Europe to one of their main hubs in Europe and their much biger transatlantic aircraft.
 
rbrunner
Posts: 661
Joined: Wed Jan 05, 2011 10:13 am

RE: Did The 727 Ever Fly Tatl?

Tue Sep 15, 2015 4:03 pm

Quoting Mortyman (Reply 21):
Pan Am also had such Boeing 727-200's based in Europe.

Yes, I flew Pan Am B727 from Munich to Berlin and from Berlin to Frankfurt in April 1978. LH were not allowed to fly in GDR airspace. The flights from West Germany to Berlin were operated by American, British or French airlines. Just out of interest: They weren't allowed to fly any higher than 12,000 feet. That was the normal altitude in 1945, when those air corridors in GDR airspace were established, and they hadn't done anything about it over 30 years later.

But regular commercial services CDG to the USA with B727? I doubt it. Must have been the B707. Approx. same fuselage length, same width, i.e. 3 - 3 arrangement.
 
cedarjet
Posts: 8788
Joined: Mon May 24, 1999 1:12 am

RE: Did The 727 Ever Fly Tatl?

Tue Sep 15, 2015 4:09 pm

Don't forget American Flyers, US supplemental / charter carrier. You'll find their 727-100s in the photo database at LGW and MAN. Today they still exist as a flying school — my first ever flying lesson was with them, out of Santa Monica.
fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
 
Western727
Posts: 1766
Joined: Wed Jan 03, 2007 12:38 pm

RE: Did The 727 Ever Fly Tatl?

Tue Sep 15, 2015 4:21 pm

Intriguing thread. I, too, doubt (but cannot disprove) that TWA flew 727s of any variant across the pond, other than the positioning flights to support the aforementioned intra-Europe flying, much like PA did as well.
Jack @ AUS
 
AirGAbon
Posts: 676
Joined: Fri Dec 19, 2003 10:37 pm

RE: Did The 727 Ever Fly Tatl?

Tue Sep 15, 2015 4:26 pm

TWA flew from CDG to GVA, ZRH, ATH, MUC, TLV, CAI as far as I remember using few B727 and widebodies aircraft (L1011 and 747).
 
User avatar
readytotaxi
Posts: 7328
Joined: Mon Dec 11, 2006 2:09 am

RE: Did The 727 Ever Fly Tatl?

Tue Sep 15, 2015 4:43 pm

TWA certainly had bad luck with their 727 overseas.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TWA_Flight_847
 
you don't get a second chance to make a first impression!
Growing older, but not up.
 
User avatar
Mortyman
Posts: 5832
Joined: Sat Aug 12, 2006 8:26 pm

RE: Did The 727 Ever Fly Tatl?

Tue Sep 15, 2015 5:26 pm

Quoting rbrunner (Reply 22):
Yes, I flew Pan Am B727 from Munich to Berlin and from Berlin to Frankfurt in April 1978.

i flew Pan am Boeing 727-200 Adv. between FBU ( Oslo ) and LHR and the same way back both in 1988 and 1990.
 
Airnerd
Posts: 303
Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2007 11:57 pm

RE: Did The 727 Ever Fly Tatl?

Tue Sep 15, 2015 6:26 pm

As far as I can remember, it was quite rare to even get a 727 for a trans-continental flight, let alone a trans-Atlantic one.
 
Yflyer
Posts: 1725
Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2007 4:05 am

RE: Did The 727 Ever Fly Tatl?

Tue Sep 15, 2015 6:34 pm

Quoting deltabravo1123 (Thread starter):
since it had three engines which excluded it from ETOPS restrictions

Technically speaking, there was no such thing as ETOPS until the mid 1980s. Prior to that I believe twins were simply not allowed to fly tatl (Or across any other ocean for that matter).
 
incitatus
Posts: 3373
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 1:49 am

RE: Did The 727 Ever Fly Tatl?

Tue Sep 15, 2015 6:38 pm

Varig had a short-duration REC-SID (Recife to Ilha do Sal) transatlantic flight on 727-100 - at least technically one!
I do not consume Murdoch products including the Wall Street Journal
 
PATristar
Posts: 135
Joined: Mon Aug 26, 2013 2:19 pm

RE: Did The 727 Ever Fly Tatl?

Tue Sep 15, 2015 6:57 pm

Quoting incitatus (Reply 30):
Varig had a short-duration REC-SID (Recife to Ilha do Sal) transatlantic flight on 727-100 - at least technically one!

Actually it wasn't TATL it was more 1/2 TATL.   
 
mjoelnir
Posts: 9391
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:06 pm

RE: Did The 727 Ever Fly Tatl?

Tue Sep 15, 2015 8:53 pm

Quoting Birdwatching (Reply 16):
Did Icelandair ever fly their 727s to the US or Canada? All the photos I find in the database are from Europe.

No they did not. It was LL doing USA with the DC8. When LL and FI merged the combined company kept using the DC8 for TATL until they were replaced by 757.
 
SpaceshipDC10
Posts: 7001
Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2013 11:44 am

RE: Did The 727 Ever Fly Tatl?

Tue Sep 15, 2015 9:07 pm

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 32):
It was LL doing USA with the DC8.

Just in case, LL was Loftleidir or Icelandic Airlines.


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Udo K. Haafke

 
rbrunner
Posts: 661
Joined: Wed Jan 05, 2011 10:13 am

RE: Did The 727 Ever Fly Tatl?

Tue Sep 15, 2015 9:18 pm

Quoting Mortyman (Reply 27):
i flew Pan am Boeing 727-200 Adv. between FBU ( Oslo ) and LHR and the same way back both in 1988 and 1990.

Which is somehow strange, as the so called "fifth freedom", i.e. for an airline to fly between two foreign countries didn't occur until much later...
 
mjoelnir
Posts: 9391
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:06 pm

RE: Did The 727 Ever Fly Tatl?

Tue Sep 15, 2015 9:39 pm

Quoting rbrunner (Reply 34):
Which is somehow strange, as the so called "fifth freedom", i.e. for an airline to fly between two foreign countries didn't occur until much later

That is a misunderstanding. That was implemented very early, because few longer flights could be done direct and few countries had airlines flying international.

That is exactly the joke today, talking abort a well established procedure as if it was something new. The only change is, who flies the fifth freedom flights.
 
BoeingGuy
Posts: 6313
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2010 6:01 pm

RE: Did The 727 Ever Fly Tatl?

Tue Sep 15, 2015 9:58 pm

Quoting incitatus (Reply 30):
Varig had a short-duration REC-SID (Recife to Ilha do Sal) transatlantic flight on 727-100 - at least technically one!

That's like saying that JFK-BDA is transatlantic. Or San Pedro to Catalina Island is transpacific.

Where did Sterling fly their 727s transatlantic? What was the routing
 
SpaceshipDC10
Posts: 7001
Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2013 11:44 am

RE: Did The 727 Ever Fly Tatl?

Tue Sep 15, 2015 10:05 pm

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 36):
Where did Sterling fly their 727s transatlantic? What was the routing

You may get some answers in this not too old thread.

Sterling Airways Long Haul Flights (by 802flyguy Jan 20 2013 in Civil Aviation)
 
willyknut
Posts: 44
Joined: Sat Apr 10, 2010 9:56 pm

RE: Did The 727 Ever Fly Tatl?

Tue Sep 15, 2015 10:07 pm

Sterling certainly stretched their 727s as far as they could go. (And Caravelles as well for that matter)
As mentioned earlier they flew quite a few scheduled charters nonstop trans Atlantic from Scandinavia, normally stopping at Bangor. Carried on to FLL and the Caribbean IIRC. Don't think they managed nonstop Toronto..?
So yes, they flew 727 nonstop trans atlantic, but certainly not from Paris to USA.
 
User avatar
kc135topboom
Posts: 11181
Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2005 2:26 am

RE: Did The 727 Ever Fly Tatl?

Tue Sep 15, 2015 10:37 pm

I remember FI had non-stop B-727-200ADV service from BOS to RKV and JFK to RKV in the 1970s and 1980s.
 
Viscount724
Posts: 19316
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:32 pm

RE: Did The 727 Ever Fly Tatl?

Wed Sep 16, 2015 3:24 am

Quoting crownvic (Reply 4):
The only 727 operators that I recall flying trans-Atlantic were Wardair 727-100s (to Canada), and I believe Sterling may have ran some charters with their 722s

You mean Wardair 727-100 (not -100s). They only had one.

As a sidenote, the Wardair 721 was the first Boeing jet sold in Canada. I watched the delivery ceremony for that aircraft when it landed at now closed YXD airport (Edmonton Municipal Airport, later City Centre Airport) in April 1966 after the delivery flight from BFI.
 
Viscount724
Posts: 19316
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:32 pm

RE: Did The 727 Ever Fly Tatl?

Wed Sep 16, 2015 4:15 am

Quoting Mortyman (Reply 12):
Danish charter airline Sterling Airways in Toronto 1982, 1987, 1988 ,1989 and 1992 with their Boeing 727-200 Adv. aircraft:
Quoting readytotaxi (Reply 26):
TWA certainly had bad luck with their 727 overseas.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TWA_Fli...t_847

And TWA 840, the 727-200 bombed on the FCO-ATH sector of a flight continuing to CAI. Four passengers, including an infant, were sucked to their deaths through the hole blown in the fuselage and resulting explosive decompression.
http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19860402-1
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TWA_Flight_840_bombing_(1986)

The aircraft (N54340) was repaired and spent many more years with TWA.



Damage to the cabin from the bomb:




That was an unlucky TWA flight number and sector. Another TW840 was hijacked on the FCO-ATH sector in 1969. That was a 707-331B and was continuing to TLV that day. It wound up in Damascas, Syria where the cockpit/nose section was destroyed by grenades, fortunately after those aboard had left the aircraft. Boeing flew a new nose section to DAM and repaired the aircraft and it spent another 10 or 11 years with TWA. It was re-registered N28714 after the repairs (originally N776TW).
http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19690829-1

And the westbound counterpart of that flight, TW841, was bombed on the ATH-FCO sector in 1974, killing all 88 aboard the 707-331B.
http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19740908-0

Quoting rbrunner (Reply 34):
Quoting Mortyman (Reply 27):
i flew Pan am Boeing 727-200 Adv. between FBU ( Oslo ) and LHR and the same way back both in 1988 and 1990.


Which is somehow strange, as the so called "fifth freedom", i.e. for an airline to fly between two foreign countries didn't occur until much later...

Not sure what you mean. Are you referring specifically to Pan Am's 5th freedom rights Oslo-London, or to 5th freedom rights in general? US carriers had extensive 5th freedom rights within since the 1940s or 1950s, as dozens of other carriers did all over the world.
 
okay
Posts: 642
Joined: Tue Dec 12, 2006 10:11 pm

RE: Did The 727 Ever Fly Tatl?

Wed Sep 16, 2015 4:18 am

There is some mixed info about the TWA 727 flying or not flying across the pond with pax. Some suggest the planes would have carried extra fuel tanks, some say no way it was possible for a 727 to fly this stretch. Another interesting detail is the route of the infamous TWA flight 847. On Wikipedia (yes, I know, not the best source of information!) it says that the route was as follows:

Flight origin Cairo International Airport
1st stopover Athens (Ellinikon) Int'l Airport
2nd stopover Leonardo da Vinci Int'l Airport
3rd stopover Boston Logan Airport
4th stopover Los Angeles International Airport
Destination San Diego International Airport

How was this executed in practice in case it was not destined to be flown on the same aircraft? Aircraft change in Rome to fly TATL? Any other aircraft changes along the route?
 
okay
Posts: 642
Joined: Tue Dec 12, 2006 10:11 pm

RE: Did The 727 Ever Fly Tatl?

Wed Sep 16, 2015 4:25 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 41):
Not sure what you mean. Are you referring specifically to Pan Am's 5th freedom rights Oslo-London, or to 5th freedom rights in general? US carriers had extensive 5th freedom rights within since the 1940s or 1950s, as dozens of other carriers did all over the world.

5th Freedom rights were not uncommon in Europe back in the days. AY had the right to carry pax between HEL and CPH en route to JFK. Something SK did not like and finally the Danish government denied this and AY changed the route to go via AMS. Also AF used to fly ORY-ARN-HEL and back and it was possible to buy tickets between the two Nordic cities only.

[Edited 2015-09-15 21:27:34]

[Edited 2015-09-15 21:28:01]

[Edited 2015-09-15 21:29:21]
 
Viscount724
Posts: 19316
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:32 pm

RE: Did The 727 Ever Fly Tatl?

Wed Sep 16, 2015 4:25 am

Quoting okay (Reply 42):
How was this executed in practice in case it was not destined to be flown on the same aircraft? Aircraft change in Rome to fly TATL? Any other aircraft changes along the route?

Yes it was a change-of-gauge at FCO. Same flight number all the way. The US carriers that based 727s and other shorthaul types in Europe never operated them on transatlantic sectors except to ferry them to/from the U.S. for maintenance.
 
milesrich
Posts: 1508
Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2003 2:46 am

RE: Did The 727 Ever Fly Tatl?

Wed Sep 16, 2015 8:06 am

Quoting okay (Reply 15):
TWA did have a 727 fleet based in Europe, I think it was FCO? Even the infamous TWA flight 847 happened on their 727. I must admit I was under the impression there were TATL traffic on 727s, but I have no hard facts to back this up. Could some 727 carry extra fuel tanks or something similar?

TWA NEVER flew 727s in scheduled service across the Atlantic. They didn't have the range, unless they flew to Gander and then to Shannon or the Azores. Additionally, I don't believe that TWA 727s were trans oceanic equipped. No life rafts, etc. TWA flew 707s across the pond from 1960 to 1980 or so. And the tag on flights from CDG and FCO that were operated with 727s, were really connecting flights. TWA just used the same flight numbers, so they could mislead an unsophisticated flyer than the flight was a through flight. TWA 847 was operated with a 727-231 from CAI to ATH to FCO. The flight from FCO was nonstop to BOS, and was operated with either 747-131 or L-1011-200 equipment. The flight was schedule to fly from BOS to LAX, another flight longer than the range of the 727-231.
 
mjoelnir
Posts: 9391
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:06 pm

RE: Did The 727 Ever Fly Tatl?

Wed Sep 16, 2015 12:20 pm

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 39):
I remember FI had non-stop B-727-200ADV service from BOS to RKV and JFK to RKV in the 1970s and 1980s.

In 1973 Icelandair and Loftleiðir merged. Loftleiðir had a fleet of DC8 used til 1990 by the merged FI. I think it is an error and the DC8 was used on that route.
Icelandair had only one 727-100 and later one 727-200, but several DC8.

The 727-200 was bought 1980 for the European routes. It was sold 1989.
The 727-100 was bought 1968 and used until 1985.
 
Ned Kelly
Posts: 408
Joined: Fri Feb 16, 2001 8:14 am

RE: Did The 727 Ever Fly Tatl?

Wed Sep 16, 2015 5:20 pm

I remember seeing a TWA 727 flying at high altitude over the UK c1979 routing Brookmans Park to pole Hill (VOR's), and hearing the pilot clearly over my air band radio requesting Oceanic clearance from Shanwick ATC. IIRC the call sign was TWA849 and I did later find out the aircraft registration which was one (of 2?) that were based in Europe at the time. It was my first time I ever saw (although from a distance!) a TWA 727.

Who is online

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos