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lhpdx
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RE: Oregon Aviation Thread - Part 9

Fri Oct 23, 2015 5:38 pm

Cover Story: Can Portland's airport be a jet engine for the economy?
Oct 23, 2015, 3:00am PDT




Earlier this week, Billie Moser met with a client who’d flown from Amsterdam to Portland on a direct flight with Delta. As Travel Portland’s vice president of international travel, Moser meets regularly with overseas clients interested in doing business in the Rose City.

“The first thing my client said to me was that she couldn’t believe how beautiful (the airport) was and how everyone in the immigration section here was just so nice,” Moser said. “It’s only one person, but a rude comment or a bad experience right there at the start could have made her first 36 hours here a lot different.”
PDX is planning for its future, in part through a $98 million terminal balancing project that will swap Alaska Airlines and United Airlines and extend Concourse E by 200 feet.
Enlarge

PDX is planning for its future, in part through a $98 million terminal balancing project… more



Moser’s client isn’t the only one impressed when they step off a flight in Portland. PDX regularly ranks as one of the nation’s top airports.

And yet when it comes to being an economic engine for the region, PDX often finds itself tied by the same constraints that bind Portland to secondary market status. PDX is smaller than its West Coast neighbors, meaning the airport has a much smaller population from which to draw passengers. And without passenger demand, it’s often more profitable for airlines to connect to Portland from larger Western cities. The result is fewer direct flights, which can put Portland at a disadvantage when it comes to recruiting new business.

While PDX can’t realistically become a major airline hub, it is pursuing an expansion strategy that will keep it — and the region — competitive.

“Alaska Airlines has a hub in Portland, but there’s really no one else who looks at Portland as a hub,” said David Zielke, general manager of air service development for the Port of Portland. “It’s more of a spoke, which makes it more of a niche, a more strategic market and one that’s not an obvious one. So we work harder and pedal faster to stay very active in the marketplace.”

To that end, the port has launched an ambitious, $250 million effort to revamp terminals, reroute passengers, update the carpet and otherwise set the stage for PDX’s next chapter. It’s a chapter that finds PDX on track for a record number of travelers this year and a bump up to “large hub” status in the eyes of the Federal Aviation Administration.

There’s also a renewed push to restore large freight service, something PDX has been without since Asiana Cargo ended its service in 2013.

“All of these projects are designed to take the airport into the future,” said Vince Granato, chief operating officer for the port. “We see the need for growth and we are taking steps today to accommodate it and to make sure we are improving on the reputation we already have.”
If we build it...

Anyone familiar with behemoth airports in places like Chicago, Los Angeles or even Seattle knows how quaint and comfortable PDX can seem in comparison. In some regards, PDX is to other major airports what Portland is to other major cities: less crowded, easier to get around, relatively affordable and populated more with homegrown brewpubs and bookstores than corporate chains.

It also has its own Portland charm, a prominent example being its funky outgoing carpet that somehow managed to garner tens of thousands of social media followers and spawn everything from carpet-inspired Nike sneakers to a Rogue India Pale Ale.

The charm and down-home friendliness have garnered PDX plenty of accolades. PDX has been named the best airport and the best business airport in the country by Travel + Leisure and Conde Nast multiple times, and it’s maintained its high ranking even as passenger volume has soared.

In 2009, passenger numbers dropped to 12.9 million from an all-time high of 14.6 million in 2007. It took some time to recover, but last year numbers hit 15.9 million and this year PDX expects to see more than 16.7 million passengers. Granato said August of this year alone was up nearly 8 percent over last year.

That growth is what’s largely fueling the $250 million in capital projects, which includes $98 million to rework terminals to better balance passenger traffic, $60 million to upgrade rental car facilities and $57 million for security upgrades.

Airport officials are also in the planning stages for a main terminal redevelopment to better suit the much-changed flight habits of 21st century travelers, who no longer need sprawling ticket counters or bag checking areas. That project, which is only in the earliest of planning stages, could run in the hundreds of millions of dollars.

Though the port will shoulder some of the costs, it’s the airlines that serve PDX that fund the majority of capital projects.

Still, investment in new projects alone won’t necessarily translate into more flights. The airlines themselves decide whether or not a business case can be made for a particular flight, a decision based largely on passenger demand. One example where that case couldn’t be made: Lufthansa suspended its Portland to Frankfurt, Germany, service in 2009. But in a move that illuminates how finicky the market can be, Condor Airlines added a flight from PDX to Frankfurt earlier this year.

“The airline business is very portable,” Zielke said. “In a matter of months they can take an airplane out and put it somewhere else. We live in this world where the market is always at risk for us.”

With passenger volume growing and airlines doing financially well, many have been adding flights at PDX. Some of the latest include new service to Dallas, Orange County, St. Louis, and Reykjavik, Iceland. The port also often entices airlines to add flights with incentives like fee waivers and marketing support.

One service that’s not been added is main deck freighter service, essentially dedicated cargo planes flying goods out of PDX to international markets. Zielke said that service has come and gone multiple times over the past decade or more.

When Asiana ended its cargo service in 2013, leaving PDX without a carrier flying direct to Asian markets, companies such as Nike, Intel and Columbia Sportswear, not to mention purveyors of time-sensitive goods like Oregon produce and seafood, had to turn to airports in Seattle, San Francisco and other West Coast cities for direct air freight service.

Attracting a new freight carrier appears to be a priority for the state, maybe even more so following the loss this spring of a majority of the ocean-bound container shipping service to Portland. On a recent trip to Asia, Gov. Kate Brown and a delegation were expected to meet with several major carriers to talk about bringing air freight service back to PDX.

“I think we’re getting close,” Zielke said.
Recruitment tool

In 2011, steelmaker Evraz Inc. moved its 50-person headquarters from Portland to Chicago. The reason? Air service. Then CEO Mike Rehwinkel said that due to the limited number of direct flights out of PDX, the company’s executives couldn’t get to its mills and customers in a single day.

While Evraz’s departure appears to have been an anomaly, what’s unknown is whether PDX’s size and air traffic options relative to top-tier cities with major airline hubs is limiting the region’s ability to recruit new business.

“We’d love to see more international flights,” said Travel Portland’s Moser. “And it’s not just the leisure traveler that you need, but the big thing is the corporate businesses — the people who sit in the front of the plane.”

Mitsu Yamazaki, international business development officer for the Portland Development Commission, said Delta’s nonstop flight to Tokyo has been key to building business opportunities between Portland and Japan. Throughout the summer, he met with one or two groups visiting from Japan every week; he’s also currently working on two good-sized investment projects with businesses in Tokyo, including one that’s looking to develop up to 400 hotel rooms in the metro region.

“I know that some businesses in Japan really appreciate having the direct connection to Portland,” he said.

A case in point of the role PDX can play in economic development is Portland’s booming tech sector. Frequent direct flights up and down the West Coast have made the city an attractive outpost for California-based tech giants from Airbnb to Google and to Salesforce. “We have seen explosive growth in the number of tech companies expanding into the region in recent years, and it’s important for those companies to have direct flights to and from their headquarters,” said Skip Newberry, president of the Technology Association of Oregon.

As more companies are drawn to Portland by its livability and affordability relative to other West Coast hubs, demand for flights may well follow, making it easier for PDX to attract more flights. PDX believes the investments it’s making today will ensure that when increased air traffic volume arrives, the airport will be ready.

“We are doing what we can to stay ahead of the curve in an industry that is very competitive,” Zielke said. “We are not too big, but we punch above our weight class and we are at a great size where we can still really impact the marketplace.”
 
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boeingrulz
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RE: Oregon Aviation Thread - Part 9

Fri Oct 23, 2015 5:59 pm

Quoting lhpdx (Reply 13):
Starting in 2017, Alaska is looking to add 30 new E175's over a five year period. Those may go to Horizon if they can provide a competitive bid, otherwise I imagine they'll go to Skywest.

I really hope Horizon gets a chance to operate some of the E175's. Even though on paper the service is the same on Skywest operated flights, Horizon crew are better in my opinion. On my last flight SBA-PDX, I noticed that the onboard crew interacted far more with each other than with the passengers. I sat next to a person doing a service audit and they were all chatty with her but less so with the passengers. I have never had this experience on Horizon operated flights. I sense a genuine culture of passenger focus on Horizon, even better than Alaska.
 
flyoregon
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RE: Oregon Aviation Thread - Part 9

Fri Oct 23, 2015 6:11 pm

Great article and thank you for posting it!

A few takeaways:

Impressive to note that the passenger count over last year is nearly 1 million more! That is very impressive growth!!

For the cynics that say PDX can't handle more international flights than it has I think needs to understand more clearly how the local/regional economy is functioning and growing on a leisure and business level. Business is growing in Portland and with more direct options internationally, you'll see more international business growth up and down the Willamette Valley. Domestically, things are going very well. I'm not sure how much growth we'll see from Alaska in 2016 but I think there will be an add or two. JetBlue has done very well in Portland and I'd like to see them make BOS year round, and I think if Alaska doesn't get on it, MCO or FLL could work nicely for them with the connection opportunities from those airports.

Like I've said before, and RWA380 has backed me up, American would be wise to strongly consider PDX for a small international focus city with a handful of destinations to Asia. Now that the ties between AS and AA are considerably stronger, the local economy is growing, not to mention the population boom we're seeing, I think AA is really missing out on an opportunity. Granted I'm biased, but based on stats, data, and fact, there is a case to be made. This is not Portland circa 1989-2001 where Delta gave it a go. The whole area is a different animal. Travel Oregon and Travel Portland do a tremendous job at toting Portland as a vacation destination internationally, and it's a very desirable place to visit.

While in Iceland over the Summer, when I mentioned I was from Portland, I was very surprised at how many local Icelanders knew immediately where I was talking about. At KEF, Icelandair has/had a poster announcing the new Portland service. In talking with other Iceland tourists from Germany, England, and Sweden specifically, they all talked very positively about Portland having been here or desiring to come here.

In all, Portland isn't what most of America thinks it is. It's not a little city any more. Sure, it's not SEA or SFO, but it's not BOI or SLC. It's a medium sized city with a strong reputation that's building. I feel like more people out of this country know more about Portland than those within it which in a way is somewhat pathetic.

Hat's off to the organizations involved in making PDX grow. While a re-connect of trans-pac all cargo service would be great, hopefully they've formulated how to make it successful and keep the wheel turning on international pax growth like JAL, Hainan, and British.

[Edited 2015-10-23 11:19:42]
 
flyoregon
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RE: Oregon Aviation Thread - Part 9

Fri Oct 23, 2015 6:14 pm

Quoting boeingrulz (Reply 101):
I really hope Horizon gets a chance to operate some of the E175's. Even though on paper the service is the same on Skywest operated flights, Horizon crew are better in my opinion. On my last flight SBA-PDX, I noticed that the onboard crew interacted far more with each other than with the passengers. I sat next to a person doing a service audit and they were all chatty with her but less so with the passengers. I have never had this experience on Horizon operated flights. I sense a genuine culture of passenger focus on Horizon, even better than Alaska.

You're spot on. Horizon is above and beyond compared to SkyWest. They don't care. If they lose the Alaska contract they don't lose jobs, they just go onto to Delta, United, or American flights. The service levels are not even close to similar, and that's a poor reflection on Alaska.

Horizon will get the 76-jets, whatever jet that might be (although the -175 is the likely winner). They're going about it wisely, and the majority of the organization is behind the initiative 100%.
 
lhpdx
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RE: Oregon Aviation Thread - Part 9

Fri Oct 23, 2015 9:50 pm

You're welcome fly Oregon..Since I subscribe to the Portland Business journal whatever airport news related information I find I will definitely share with you all.....Look like this year,PDX is inching closer and closer to 17 million passengers..
 
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RWA380
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RE: Oregon Aviation Thread - Part 9

Sat Oct 24, 2015 10:17 am

Quoting flyoregon (Reply 103):
You're spot on. Horizon is above and beyond compared to SkyWest. They don't care. If they lose the Alaska contract they don't lose jobs, they just go onto to Delta, United, or American flights. The service levels are not even close to similar, and that's a poor reflection on Alaska.

Horizon will get the 76-jets, whatever jet that might be (although the -175 is the likely winner). They're going about it wisely, and the majority of the organization is behind the initiative 100%

This is what I've heard from my AS friends, OO flying is doing very well for AS & they are anxious to expand with more E-175's once the current 13 arrive on propertty & get assigned to their specific routes.

AS is aware that OO employees do not always provide the same experience as a QX employee would, but in all fairness the OO employees are not enjoying the same happy work environment that AAG employees enjoy.

There has been & still is, an ongoing conversation about re-introducing jets to the QX fleet. There are few decisions made, but one is that the E-175 would likely be the aircraft, given how well they are currently working on mid-range to short routes that they fly for AAG.

I do not know all of the hurdles that QX & AS would need to go through to bring that jet flying in house, I'd expect the E-175's to go to QX & AS to take on more MAX flying as those start arriving.

IIRC, we can expect some lease extensions on current aircraft flying, 700's mostly as AS continues in an expansion mode for a few more years. I do not know if AS will continue with the 400's that are left, I expect they'll be gone before the last 700.
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BlatantEcho
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RE: Oregon Aviation Thread - Part 9

Sat Oct 24, 2015 2:03 pm

Aside from DEN being needly badly on the E175s, I'd like to see Houston added (HOU would be cooler than IAH, but seems unlikely), and maybe ABQ.
I assume ATL/DTW are too far for the jungle gets, but, if not, please add those destinations too!


--
What would also be nice is for some additional frequencies (ORD, I'm looking at you).

I less and less am willing to connect via SEA. Just a hassle and pure backtracking when you are heading south.
I'm need to get to Houston in Feb, and I don't want to do PDX-SEA-IAH.

So I'm looking at United (gasp!) or PDX-DFW-HOU.

More frequency to established markets would be great, the E175s can't come fast enough.
 
PDX88
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RE: Oregon Aviation Thread - Part 9

Sat Oct 24, 2015 3:12 pm

Quoting flyoregon (Reply 102):
Like I've said before, and RWA380 has backed me up, American would be wise to strongly consider PDX for a small international focus city with a handful of destinations to Asia.

AA doesn't have the widebody fleet that UA and DL do. This would be a great market if AA had the aircraft and is well settled in the Asia market, but there's still way too many hub-Asia routes AA needs to start before they even look at starting a focus city like PDX.
 
factsonly
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RE: Oregon Aviation Thread - Part 9

Sat Oct 24, 2015 3:32 pm

With the changeover from S15 to W15 schedule season, DL will operate the B744 on AMS-SEA for a one-off?.
This is the first day on which DL will operate 1x/day for W15 instead of 2x/day for S15.

- Oct. 23 DL 0142 SEA-AMS / Airbus A330-300 / N807NW
- Oct. 24 DL 0142 SEA-AMS / Airbus A330-300 / N814NW
- Oct. 25 DL 0143 AMS-SEA / Boeing 747-400 / N671US

At the same time PDX will see the introduction of the B764:

- Oct. 23 DL 0178 PDX-AMS / Airbus A330-300 / N819NW
- Oct. 24 DL 0178 PDX-AMS / Boeing 767-300 ER / N195DN
- Oct. 25 DL 0179 AMS-PDX / Boeing 767-400 / N837MH
 
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ramprat74
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RE: Oregon Aviation Thread - Part 9

Sat Oct 24, 2015 3:37 pm

I get off work at 9pm and I'm amazed how much car traffic PDX has on Airport Way. Just last night the arrivals was backed up to the Atlantic terminal. This seems to happen every night and it's not even peak summer season. I been noticing more and more uber drivers hanging out at their new lot at the old Delta cabin service building also.
 
BlatantEcho
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RE: Oregon Aviation Thread - Part 9

Sat Oct 24, 2015 7:08 pm

Quoting factsonly (Reply 108):
At the same time PDX will see the introduction of the B764:

- Oct. 23 DL 0178 PDX-AMS / Airbus A330-300 / N819NW
- Oct. 24 DL 0178 PDX-AMS / Boeing 767-300 ER / N195DN
- Oct. 25 DL 0179 AMS-PDX / Boeing 767-400 / N837MH

Definitely didn't know about this. I'm on 178/179 next month in EC. Only even been on a 764 once before (LHR-JFK), so this is kinda cool.

Looking forward to it.
 
ANA787
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RE: Oregon Aviation Thread - Part 9

Tue Oct 27, 2015 8:39 pm

Quoting BlatantEcho (Reply 110):
Definitely didn't know about this. I'm on 178/179 next month in EC. Only even been on a 764 once before (LHR-JFK), so this is kinda cool.

Looking forward to it.

I think the 764 is only operating once.

On a side note, according to Delta.com PDX-AMS will be operating daily through the winter schedule to January, reducing to 6x/week in Jan/Feb for a few weeks and then returning to daily March 2. In years past it has always been 5x/week winter with daily resumption resuming April 1. This is actually big news, a big increase in seats PDX-Europe. Wonder if DL will try a seasonal PDX-CDG for summer.

[Edited 2015-10-27 13:47:57]

[Edited 2015-10-27 13:48:34]
 
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bigfoot0503
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RE: Oregon Aviation Thread - Part 9

Wed Oct 28, 2015 9:23 pm

Quoting ana787 (Reply 111):
This is actually big news, a big increase in seats PDX-Europe. Wonder if DL will try a seasonal PDX-CDG for summer

I would agree...a nice enhancement for PDX!

Whenever I fly DL out of PDX I hear from the DL employees that a PDX-CDG flight has not only been rumored but that a seasonal flight is very much within the realm of possibility. The Port of Portland has openly stated that a PDX-CDG n/s flight remains one of their top priorities. I certainly hope that we see a n/s CDG or LHR flight within the next year or so.
 
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RWA380
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RE: Oregon Aviation Thread - Part 9

Wed Oct 28, 2015 9:59 pm

Quoting bigfoot0503 (Reply 112):
Whenever I fly DL out of PDX I hear from the DL employees that a PDX-CDG flight has not only been rumored but that a seasonal flight is very much within the realm of possibility. The Port of Portland has openly stated that a PDX-CDG n/s flight remains one of their top priorities. I certainly hope that we see a n/s CDG or LHR flight within the next year or so.

Indeed a great boost for PDX to have almost daily service to Europe year 'round. My only thought would be, that in terms of just numbers alone, I'd think LHR would be a much higher priority than CDG. I see DL trying a PDX-CDG seasonally, but it really would be nice to see BA start a 787 route to PDX, even if just daily in the summer & 3-4 x weekly in the winter.

Most travelers I know that go to LHR, do so with the back track via AMS, as the SEA connection has fallen out of favor with most of us Portlanders, although SEA can be a necessary evil on AS to EWR, JFK, FLL & many more, very glad the 175's came into the AS fleet & opened up many more opportunies from PDX.
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lhpdx
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RE: Oregon Aviation Thread - Part 9

Thu Oct 29, 2015 3:44 am

I just noticed today that they started tearing down the old United Maintenance center at PDX.....I'm guessing that is where the new Atlantic Aviation hanger and expanded ramp is going to be located......
 
pdxswa
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RE: Oregon Aviation Thread - Part 9

Thu Oct 29, 2015 4:13 pm

A nice view of the C concourse at dusk.

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Photo © Bill Shemley

 
pdxswa
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RE: Oregon Aviation Thread - Part 9

Sun Nov 01, 2015 3:05 pm

A rare diversion for here enroute from LAX to SEA had to stop for fuel.

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Photo © Bill Shemley

 
32andBelow
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RE: Oregon Aviation Thread - Part 9

Sun Nov 01, 2015 5:19 pm

Quoting pdxswa (Reply 116):

a 747-8F had to stop for fuel between LAX and SEA?
 
pdxswa
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RE: Oregon Aviation Thread - Part 9

Sun Nov 01, 2015 5:34 pm

Yes apparently one of the approach radars was down and A/C were backing up. So they had to come in for a gas and go. Better to be safe than sorry !
 
pdxswa
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RE: Oregon Aviation Thread - Part 9

Mon Nov 02, 2015 5:59 pm

Icelandairs's first night of revenue service here at PDX. Looking forward to next year with 3 X a week service.

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Photo © Bill Shemley

 
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bigfoot0503
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RE: Oregon Aviation Thread - Part 9

Mon Nov 02, 2015 8:14 pm

Quoting pdxswa (Reply 119):

I as well am looking forward to long and prosperous service with Icelandair at PDX. Beautiful photo Bill!
 
pdxswa
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RE: Oregon Aviation Thread - Part 9

Mon Nov 02, 2015 8:29 pm

Bigfoot0503 thank you. Also we can't forget Condor also increasing frequency also to 3 x weekly next year.
 
910A
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RE: Oregon Aviation Thread - Part 9

Tue Nov 03, 2015 2:17 pm

PenAir update: http://kiem-tv.com/video/penair-huge-success-del-norte-county-airport

CRESCENT CITY- After a month and a half of service, Del Norte County Airport officials say so far, so good with new airline PenAir.

"Thus far it's been a huge success," Airport Director Matthew Leitner said. "They haven't cancelled one flight. They've been exhibiting a 97 percent on time rate. They've got a full Alaska Airlines coach here so all the benefits inherent with that apply, you know frequent throughfares and so forth. And Portland has proven a very capable hub in so far as connectivity is concerned and I think the passengers utilizing this airport have been very impressed."

PenAir started service to Crescent City September 15. The airport says in September they saw about 38 percent of seats occupied, last month between 46 and 47 percent and are expecting that number to continue rising through the end of the year.
 
mtnwest1979
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RE: Oregon Aviation Thread - Part 9

Tue Nov 03, 2015 5:31 pm

Quoting 910A (Reply 122):
They've got a full Alaska Airlines coach here

Wow that is a long stage ride to PDX lol.
Glad to see them doing decent there.
Riddle: Which lasts longer, a start-up airline or a start-up football league?
 
BoeingGuy
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RE: Oregon Aviation Thread - Part 9

Tue Nov 03, 2015 5:45 pm

Quoting 32andBelow (Reply 117):
a 747-8F had to stop for fuel between LAX and SEA?

It doesn't necessary mean they left LAX with a full load of fuel. They probably had enough per regulation for LAX-SEA and then apparently encountered some delays.
 
Wingtips56
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RE: Oregon Aviation Thread - Part 9

Tue Nov 03, 2015 10:41 pm

Quoting mtnwest1979 (Reply 123):
Quoting 910A (Reply 122):
They've got a full Alaska Airlines coach here

They misquoted Matthew in the print version, although the enunciation was a bit unclear. He said "They've got a full Alaska Airlines codeshare ..."
- - - - -
I do wonder what is next for KS. Has there been any movement with the LMT situation? If not, they may move up some other market, rather than waste the fleet and space at PDX on just the two CEC flights. Humboldt County (ACV) is pushing hard for their PDX service, but also requesting SMF service. With SMF being tied with DEN as CEC's 3rd connecting market, I wonder if they would look at extending PDX-CEC-ACV-SMF sooner than giving ACV-PDX nonstop a try. CEC is picking up some ACV travelers, so they may not want to cannibalize that service yet. They can sell it as PDX-CEC-ACV separately from CEC-ACV-SMF, with overlapping flight numbers to avoid selling PDX-SMF (mutli-stop) in competition with PDX-SMF on QX.

Anybody here anything about RDD? And when do the PDT and OTH EAS contracts come up? I can see KS easily bumping out K5 in those markets. (K5 wanted $7.5M per year for the CEC contract, compared to KS's $3.5M, so they could beat them on price as well as service level.)
Worked for WestAir, Apollo Airways, Desert Pacific, Western, AirCal and American Airlines (Retired). Flight Memory: 181 airports, 92 airlines, 78 a/c types, 403 routes, 58 countries (by air), 6 continents. 1,119,414 passenger miles.

Home airport : CEC
 
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NWAESC
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RE: Oregon Aviation Thread - Part 9

Wed Nov 04, 2015 9:10 am

Just curious; who's handling the IcelandAir flights?
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
 
ridgid727
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RE: Oregon Aviation Thread - Part 9

Wed Nov 04, 2015 10:17 am

Apparently the TSA is keeping Klamath Falls from getting PenAir service to PDX. Sounds like the TSA suggested to Klamath Falls to operate a Saab340 "unsterile" to PDX and have passengers go thru screening in PDX for connections beyond. PenAir said that does not fit their model nor standar.

http://www.heraldandnews.com/news/lo...8-4b15-5f54-895f-a0eb2fba7d68.html
 
twincommander
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RE: Oregon Aviation Thread - Part 9

Wed Nov 04, 2015 12:33 pm

Quoting nwaesc (Reply 126):
Just curious; who's handling the IcelandAir flights?

ATS for ramp. Timco for MX.
 
Airnerd
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RE: Oregon Aviation Thread - Part 9

Wed Nov 04, 2015 7:23 pm

Quoting ridgid727 (Reply 127):
Apparently the TSA is keeping Klamath Falls from getting PenAir service to PDX. Sounds like the TSA suggested to Klamath Falls to operate a Saab340 "unsterile" to PDX and have passengers go thru screening in PDX for connections beyond. PenAir said that does not fit their model nor standar.

http://www.heraldandnews.com/news/lo...8-4b15-5f54-895f-a0eb2fba7d68.html

Wow. This is amazing to me. What's the point of security AFTER the flight?
Seems like the TSA acknowledging they are kind of pointless...
 
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RWA380
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RE: Oregon Aviation Thread - Part 9

Wed Nov 04, 2015 8:26 pm

Quoting Wingtips56 (Reply 125):
They can sell it as PDX-CEC-ACV separately from CEC-ACV-SMF, with overlapping flight numbers to avoid selling PDX-SMF (mutli-stop) in competition with PDX-SMF on QX.

I'd bet that KS wouldn't have issues with that, except for a few of us. Most sane people wouldn't fly a multi stop itinerary (despite the beautiful routing along the coast between CEC-ACV. But i do know what you say, is the norm in the industry.

Quoting ridgid727 (Reply 127):
Apparently the TSA is keeping Klamath Falls from getting PenAir service to PDX. Sounds like the TSA suggested to Klamath Falls to operate a Saab340 "unsterile" to PDX and have passengers go thru screening in PDX for connections beyond. PenAir said that does not fit their model nor standar

So UAX's departure may end up being the final commercial service to LMT? If the TSA will not staff LMT, then is there no way any carrier would fly there right?

Is there any other place in the US that doesn't have TSA screening with commercial service? I'd imagine some are privately funded & I've flown MW with a metal detector being the only screening. I'm very curious as to what the options that KS & LMT are left with?

Quoting Airnerd (Reply 129):
Wow. This is amazing to me. What's the point of security AFTER the flight?
Seems like the TSA acknowledging they are kind of pointless...

I caan not imagine too many people wanting to get on a Commercial plane with zero security screening in this day & age.
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Wingtips56
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RE: Oregon Aviation Thread - Part 9

Wed Nov 04, 2015 8:55 pm

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 130):
Most sane people wouldn't fly a multi stop itinerary (despite the beautiful routing along the coast between CEC-ACV.

I think that in a remote area like this, the one-stops are less of an issue. CEC has been a tag to ACV/EKA for decades, most recently on the UAx/OO CEC-ACV-SMF run. (Very poorly timed in the last few years, so ridership dropped.)
QX did one-stops (with the overlapping flight number trick) LAX-RDD-ACV-LAX and v.v., and LAX-ACV-RDD-PDX/SEA, first with the Dash 8 100 or 200 and later with the Q400, which I guess turned out to be too big.

What I don't see working, though, is making CEC/ACV-PDX a one-stop over OTH. There would be no local OTH-south traffic, and it's too far to make it a viable round-robin. (And the CEC EAS contract calls for 2 daily PDX non-stops. Anything else would be an additional flight and at-risk.)

With good schedules, KS and the SF34 could make it work on the SMF route. And certainly should work on the PDX-RDD and PDX-ACV stand-alone routes, not needing the round robin the Q400 needed to fill it up.

As to K-Falls: well that's a shame, as I don't see KS trying non-sterile service. Looks like LMT's hope falls to the Boutiques, Surfs and SeaPorts for the back-door flying.

But I truly believe that KS needs to expand their interline agreements to make their non-subsidized flying profitable. They've got to develop the connecting traffic as the O/D travelers just aren't going to fill the plane.
Worked for WestAir, Apollo Airways, Desert Pacific, Western, AirCal and American Airlines (Retired). Flight Memory: 181 airports, 92 airlines, 78 a/c types, 403 routes, 58 countries (by air), 6 continents. 1,119,414 passenger miles.

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Airnerd
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RE: Oregon Aviation Thread - Part 9

Wed Nov 04, 2015 9:35 pm

Quoting Wingtips56 (Reply 131):
With good schedules, KS and the SF34 could make it work on the SMF route. And certainly should work on the PDX-RDD and PDX-ACV stand-alone routes, not needing the round robin the Q400 needed to fill it up.

SMF would need to have meaningful code-share transfer opportunities for it to be worthwhile for KS out of ACV. There just aren't nearly enough people heading between those two places. AS/QX is very limited at SMF. In my experience, that route kinda worked for UAX all those years mainly as a backup for the ACV-SFO service which was constantly getting messed up by delays in SFO. UA flies to most of its hubs from SMF, so people had options to continue onward avoiding SFO.

BTW, I wouldn't hesitate to use PDX-CEC-ACV on KS. Used to fly PDX-RDD-ACV regularly on QX. Even with a quick stop on the way, it would beat the heck out of driving 7-8 hours or flying UA PDX-SFO-ACV.
 
Airnerd
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RE: Oregon Aviation Thread - Part 9

Wed Nov 04, 2015 9:51 pm

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 130):
Is there any other place in the US that doesn't have TSA screening with commercial service? I'd imagine some are privately funded & I've flown MW with a metal detector being the only screening. I'm very curious as to what the options that KS & LMT are left with?

SeaPort tried to make this one of their big selling points when they launched their initial PDX-BFI services on PC-12s. Because there were only 7 or 9 seats, they operated out of GA terminals instead of the main terminals. Total failure to appeal.
 
flyoregon
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RE: Oregon Aviation Thread - Part 9

Wed Nov 04, 2015 10:49 pm

Quoting Airnerd (Reply 133):
Total failure to appeal.

I don't think it was a total failure when their business model was very different from what it is today. If they had charged more for the flights, it would have been more successful I think. In the conversations I've had with many who used the SeaPort BFI-PDX service, it was great and was very popular. I think SeaPort could have used a stronger sales team to earn more accounts and really made it a premium business airline much like Surf Air in California (which by the way, according to founder Wade Eyerly, SeaPort was an early blue print of how to make Surf Air work).
 
mtnwest1979
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RE: Oregon Aviation Thread - Part 9

Thu Nov 05, 2015 12:30 am

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 130):
Is there any other place in the US that doesn't have TSA screening with commercial service?

Pendleton,OR has no TSA.
Flying PenAir, Grant, or Ravn out of ANC has no security.

El Dorado, AR also does not have TSA according to K5 site.

Seems odd though that TSA does screening for 1 9 pax flight out of Great Bend,KS; but is making it difficult to set-up LMT.
Seems as a gov't entity, they should be mandated to operate at an any airport that is asking for it by the airport or airline. Who are they to
decide the viability or access to a particular location. I guess Oregon congress members not that senior lol.
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Wingtips56
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RE: Oregon Aviation Thread - Part 9

Thu Nov 05, 2015 12:50 am

No TSA at PDT could be a show-stopper for KS too, if they want to bid when EAS comes up again. Hmmm
Worked for WestAir, Apollo Airways, Desert Pacific, Western, AirCal and American Airlines (Retired). Flight Memory: 181 airports, 92 airlines, 78 a/c types, 403 routes, 58 countries (by air), 6 continents. 1,119,414 passenger miles.

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RWA380
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RE: Oregon Aviation Thread - Part 9

Thu Nov 05, 2015 1:21 am

Quoting Wingtips56 (Reply 131):
I think that in a remote area like this, the one-stops are less of an issue. CEC has been a tag to ACV/EKA for decades, most recently on the UAx/OO CEC-ACV-SMF run. (Very poorly timed in the last few years, so ridership dropped.)
QX did one-stops (with the overlapping flight number trick) LAX-RDD-ACV-LAX and v.v., and LAX-ACV-RDD-PDX/SEA, first with the Dash 8 100 or 200 and later with the Q400, which I guess turned out to be too big.

I was really referring to any person that would route PDX-CEC-ACV-SMF on an KS/AS codeshare vs flying QX non-stop.

Quoting Airnerd (Reply 132):
AS/QX is very limited at SMF.

They fly to 4 destinations non-stop from SMF, surely as many or more than most carriers there. WN of course is way bigger than AS there, but as an out station goes for the AS system, 4 cities served n/s is higher than the average.

Quoting Airnerd (Reply 132):
Used to fly PDX-RDD-ACV regularly on QX.

I liked the short hop between RDD & ACV. Hated getting stuck in ACV, trying to get the 4pm (time frame) return to PDX & having to drive half the night in an overpriced, last minute, crappy Buick Skylark.

Quoting Airnerd (Reply 133):
SeaPort tried to make this one of their big selling points when they launched their initial PDX-BFI services on PC-12s

Oh yeah, I do remember getting a flyer at the travel agency I worked at. But we sold zero tickets SEA-PDX or v.v.

Quoting flyoregon (Reply 134):
(which by the way, according to founder Wade Eyerly, SeaPort was an early blue print of how to make Surf Air work).

Isn't Surfair doing well though? I expect they took only part of the business plan, or at least I hope so.

Quoting mtnwest1979 (Reply 135):
Pendleton,OR has no TSA

What's messed up is I also flew out of PDT a year ago & even hesitated when I wrote that. You're right of course, totally my bad.

Quoting mtnwest1979 (Reply 135):
Seems odd though that TSA does screening for 1 9 pax flight out of Great Bend,KS; but is making it difficult to set-up LMT.

See, I knew something like that was happening. I'd imagine that LMT would have to pony up for the salaries or hire an outside security company to perform TSA like duties. Which still likely means security on the other end at PDX & a total hassle for passengers flying only from LMT.
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Wingtips56
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RE: Oregon Aviation Thread - Part 9

Thu Nov 05, 2015 2:37 am

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 137):
I was really referring to any person that would route PDX-CEC-ACV-SMF on an KS/AS codeshare vs flying QX non-stop.

Oh no, I agree that PDX-SMF passengers wouldn't want that trip, though some of us in here might. That booking can be inhibited a couple of ways; it can be blocked in the CRS for PDX-SMF sales, or it can be handled as separate, overlapping flight numbers, which is was QX did over the ACV/RDD routes: Flight 123 sells as PDX-CEC-ACV, and Flight 456 sells as CEC-ACV-SMF. That way PDX-SMF as a 2-stop doesn't appear in flight displays; it could only be booked as a connection, and even then, a fare filing can block that routing.

I remember in my early days in the business seeing UA SMF-DEN available to book as a 5-stop, doing the milk run SMF-SFO-RNO-ELY-EKO-SLC-DEN. Once in a while they had some poor schmuck book by departure time and not notice the arrival time and stops. They had some Central Valley milk runs too between SMF/SFO and LAX/SAN. (But then there was the old WI/SwiftAire route SMF-FAT-VIS-BFL-SBP {and sometimes without the BFL stop} that the through passengers had to endure ... in a DH-Heron!) And as you yourself had previously noted from those old AirWest, Pacific and SouthWestern time tables, there were a lot of milk runs in the Cal/Ore/Wash region too.

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 137):
Quoting Airnerd (Reply 132):
AS/QX is very limited at SMF.

They fly to 4 destinations non-stop from SMF, surely as many or more than most carriers there. WN of course is way bigger than AS there, but as an out station goes for the AS system, 4 cities served n/s is higher than the average.

True, but 3 of those routes are PDX, SEA and BOI (all better served from the Coast over PDX), so it's not that big a draw. That is why KS needs to expand their interline agreements to at least include AA and more on UA, as feeds over both PDX and SMF would be necessary to fill up those flights, especially the non-subsidized routes.

Now in thinking about LMT and PDT, I guess that if TSA isn't available, then there is no chance that either of those cities would be included in a KS one-stop with another city as a way of filling the plane if too marginal as a stand-alone. Is PDT as likely to have difficulty getting TSA back as LMT seems to be?
Worked for WestAir, Apollo Airways, Desert Pacific, Western, AirCal and American Airlines (Retired). Flight Memory: 181 airports, 92 airlines, 78 a/c types, 403 routes, 58 countries (by air), 6 continents. 1,119,414 passenger miles.

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mtnwest1979
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RE: Oregon Aviation Thread - Part 9

Thu Nov 05, 2015 2:56 am

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 137):
. Which still likely means security on the other end at PDX & a total hassle for passengers flying only from LMT.

They could try something like Air Midwest did from Ely, NV when they had that EAS contract. They would stop en route to LAS in Cedar City, UT (which they also had the EAS contract for)
and screen pax there. Then continue onto LAS.
However, since CEC is only other point PenAir serves in area, seems a LMT-CEC-PDX with passenger screening at CEC would be impractical.
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flyoregon
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RE: Oregon Aviation Thread - Part 9

Thu Nov 05, 2015 10:54 pm

TSA is ridiculous. Always an excuse...

Isn't there some private organizations out there that do airport security screening in the US?
 
 
ANA787
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RE: Oregon Aviation Thread - Part 9

Fri Nov 06, 2015 4:25 am

Quoting UnitedFlyer (Reply 141):

Unbelievable.

I expect seaport to consider adding service since their operations at PDX are unsterile before arriving PDX.

Penair will probably add PDX-ACV/RDD much quicker than anticipated now.
 
Airnerd
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RE: Oregon Aviation Thread - Part 9

Fri Nov 06, 2015 6:02 pm

Quoting UnitedFlyer (Reply 141):

http://www.heraldandnews.com/breakin...c-834f-11e5-b1dc-4301205062a7.html

No excuse.

It's outrageous. Here you have a private company willing to serve an isolated airport at it's own risk and without federal subsidy. All they need is TSA security to keep the public safe and it's a go.

Then you have the entire EAS program where cities are receiving major federal subsidies in addition to TSA funding. Some of them don't need it at all. The airline serving Lancaster, PA receives $2.5M/year to fly cessnas in and out. Lancaster airport is a 39 minute drive from Harrisburg Airport which is served by 6 airlines.

It's really out of whack.
 
ridgid727
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RE: Oregon Aviation Thread - Part 9

Sun Nov 08, 2015 3:56 am

Quoting Airnerd (Reply 129):
Is there any other place in the US that doesn't have TSA screening with commercial service? I'd imagine some are privately funded & I've flown MW with a metal detector being the only screening. I'm very curious as to what the options that KS & LMT are left with?

I think Moab and Vernal are in tis same situation, as since OO abandoned those 2 markets, the TSA shut down ops 90 days after air service stopped. ZK won the contract again, but never initiated the service.

Additionally on the Klamath Falls issue, If that aircraft takes on un-sterile passengers from an "unsterile" airport, not only the passengers, but the aircraft, and crew must be re - screened and inspected prior to it re-entering a sterile area in PDX or CEC. don't think PenAir has anything like this in mind for attempting to build a PDX hub. As for PDT, I thought that when that came up for rebid PenAir would probably bid it to ad to their PDX ops.
 
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RWA380
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RE: Oregon Aviation Thread - Part 9

Sun Nov 08, 2015 6:37 am

Quoting Wingtips56 (Reply 138):
though some of us in here might.

I agree & as a younger man I would have taken the flight just to add dots to my cities flown map.

Quoting Wingtips56 (Reply 138):
as you yourself had previously noted from those old AirWest, Pacific and SouthWestern time tables, there were a lot of milk runs in the Cal/Ore/Wash region too.

Of course, that's how it was done back then. the RW PHX-LAX-SFO-RDD-LMT-RDM-PDX-PSC-YKM-SEA flight was a great example of that.

Quoting Wingtips56 (Reply 138):
Is PDT as likely to have difficulty getting TSA back as LMT seems to be?

It would seem that the TSA is not interested in re-staffing airports they left because of service stoppages. The Federal Government is influencing private companies business plans. I suggest the TSA do something useful, just once in their miserable existence & start staffing airports that need security services for commercial services, the good Lord knows TSA is getting enough funds to do this.

Quoting ridgid727 (Reply 144):
As for PDT, I thought that when that came up for rebid PenAir would probably bid it to ad to their PDX ops.

Not if they are going to have the same problem getting TSA presence as they are at LMT.
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lhpdx
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RE: Oregon Aviation Thread - Part 9

Sun Nov 08, 2015 7:44 pm

DL SEA-PDX JUL 7>8
AA PHL-PDX MAY 0>0.9

Looks like Delta adding two mainland to the PDX-SEA run......
 
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bigfoot0503
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RE: Oregon Aviation Thread - Part 9

Sun Nov 08, 2015 9:41 pm

Quoting lhpdx (Reply 146):

Yes quite interesting, looks like a morning PDX-SEA flight using the B717 and the 1:00PM departure using a B737-800. The remaining flights are a mix of CR7 aircraft and one E175. I'm liking the mainline additions and the additional frequency options to SEA.
 
lhpdx
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RE: Oregon Aviation Thread - Part 9

Sun Nov 08, 2015 9:50 pm

I'm guessing AS is going to have to step up it's game again on the SEA-PDX run next summer..Going to be interesting to watch....
 
dc10lover
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RE: Oregon Aviation Thread - Part 9

Sun Nov 08, 2015 11:44 pm

I don't know if DL is making money yet but they sure want to be deep in the Pacific Northwest. Another route possibly is between PDX Portland, Oregon & GEG Spokane, Washington with connection via DL to other cities / states in PDX.
Why endure the nightmare and congestion of LAX when BUR, LGB, ONT & SNA is so much easier to fly in and out of. Same with OAK & SJC when it comes to SFO.

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