Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
Someone83
Topic Author
Posts: 4857
Joined: Sun Sep 17, 2006 5:47 pm

Lufthansa "Jump" And Star Alliance Branding

Tue Sep 15, 2015 12:04 pm

Can't see it has been covered before, but what is the logic or rationale behind most of Lufthansa's A340-300s to be converted into the low-yield C18/E19/Y261 project JUMP configuration seems to have been repainted into a Star Allianace scheme?
 
User avatar
ua900
Moderator
Posts: 1599
Joined: Sun Feb 09, 2014 7:14 am

RE: Lufthansa "Jump" And Star Alliance Branding

Tue Sep 15, 2015 1:17 pm

If that's true it could be that:

1) They're trying to compete with Rouge for the title of bottom of the barrel for Star Alliance
2) They're sufficiently embarrassed by the product to appreciate a smaller LH font on the plane

With 4U they were always careful to disassociate themselves, wonder if they'll do the same with EW. From what I've heard, jump is merely an internal name and the planes will still operate as LH towards customers, unlike EW short haul which will be a standalone brand just like 4U. Anyone from LH on this board who can share planned branding around EW vs. LH long haul and short haul?

[Edited 2015-09-15 06:18:08]
2020: AMS | BRU | DEN | DFW | EWR | FRA | IAH | LAX | MCO | MUC | ORD | PTY | SFO | TXL
 
LCCflyer
Posts: 11
Joined: Fri May 01, 2015 7:46 am

RE: Lufthansa "Jump" And Star Alliance Branding

Tue Sep 15, 2015 3:33 pm

My understanding is that LH "Jump" in the eyes of the customer is just standard Lufthansa. Same branding, same service - just a significantly reduced quantity of business class seats and labour costs more akin to an LCC.

EW is a different beast all together. Completely different branding and service levels both on short haul and long haul (operated by SunExpress). Sure, customers will know that is part of of the Lufthansa Group but I doubt that it will have have much of a link to Star Alliance other than potentially earning miles on certain fare classes for Miles&More similar to how Jetstar works in the Qantas stable.

Air Canada rouge is much closer in positioning to EW than it is to "Jump".
 
Someone83
Topic Author
Posts: 4857
Joined: Sun Sep 17, 2006 5:47 pm

RE: Lufthansa "Jump" And Star Alliance Branding

Tue Sep 15, 2015 5:04 pm

Quoting LCCflyer (Reply 2):
My understanding is that LH "Jump" in the eyes of the customer is just standard Lufthansa. Same branding, same service - just a significantly reduced quantity of business class seats and labour costs more akin to an LCC

Me too, but still I wonder why they are mostly in Star Alliance scheme, and think they now are the only LH longhaul aircraft in that scheme?
 
Delta777Jet
Posts: 1458
Joined: Tue Jun 13, 2000 6:19 am

RE: Lufthansa "Jump" And Star Alliance Branding

Tue Sep 15, 2015 5:08 pm

Probably they would get another problem with the unions if they would paint it with LH logo.
I still miss Trans World Airlines and the L-1011
 
Ronaldo747
Posts: 390
Joined: Sat Feb 14, 2009 4:58 pm

RE: Lufthansa "Jump" And Star Alliance Branding

Tue Sep 15, 2015 6:15 pm

Quoting Delta777Jet (Reply 4):
Probably they would get another problem with the unions if they would paint it with LH logo.

  

As I understand, the "Jump" crews must not operate under full Lufthansa brand.
 
LCCflyer
Posts: 11
Joined: Fri May 01, 2015 7:46 am

RE: Lufthansa "Jump" And Star Alliance Branding

Tue Sep 15, 2015 6:30 pm

Quoting Ronaldo747 (Reply 5):

I haven't heard this before - quite interesting if true. Odd that VC would make such a demand when a workaround was so simple for LH to implement.

Lufthansa is able to implement a more suitable cost structure for these low yield routes at the 'cost' of having to promote their alliance. Sounds like a good deal to me.
 
FRAEDDF
Posts: 107
Joined: Fri May 01, 2015 8:35 am

RE: Lufthansa "Jump" And Star Alliance Branding

Tue Sep 15, 2015 10:33 pm

Quoting Ronaldo747 (Reply 5):
As I understand, the "Jump" crews must not operate under full Lufthansa brand.

Correct.

There are eight A340-300 designated for the "Jump"-project. They are transferred from LH-mainline to LH-subsidiary "CityLine" and than leased back by LH-mainline, including crews (who work under a different labour contract). Aircraft in LH-mainline colors can only be operated by mainline-crews because of contractual restraints, hence the Star Alliance colors for these A/C.

Quoting LCCflyer (Reply 6):
Odd that VC would make such a demand when a workaround was so simple for LH to implement.

The pilots union agreed to this project.
 
galleypower
Posts: 267
Joined: Wed Jan 15, 2014 12:54 pm

RE: Lufthansa "Jump" And Star Alliance Branding

Wed Sep 16, 2015 6:10 am

So much wrong after so many post concerning jump...

Quick summary
Jump was/is an LH internal project to find ways to reduce overall operating cost by 20%, involving all parties, maintenance, catering, crews etc.

From the crew side cabin agreed to a way to save cost. No F Class, C class no more than 18 seats, purser will be integrated into parts of the service. This saves one FA for this layout. This rule will apply not only for the designated A343s but also for future aircraft with this layout eg A330 or even A350. So there will be no "jump" crews.

Cockpit was negociating, offered savings but could not find an agreement. The project was close of beeing buried and the A343s beeing sold or scrapped. Finally they came up with the CLH idea. With the transfer of EMB a/c from CLH to OS there was surplus of pilots with CLH and a general shortage of pilots at LH. Instead of having to layoff the CLH pilots VC agreed to a transfer to the jump project and a deal to operate the A343s was worked out. Biggest problem was to find a way to merge and certify the CLH and LH OMs so crews from two different AOC can work together on one a/c.

This is a far cry from beeing LCC operating cost. CLH pilot payscale and regular LH cabin dont come even close to this.

For the costomer it is the regular LH product, same cabin crews, service, seats, miles, lounges etc. , why shoud they be embarrased?

I know there is this rule about LH pilots only on LH branded a/c. I dont think this rules applies here. First this was all done with the consent for VC and, as it appears now, (knowing my company, tomorrow could be a different story) not all jump designated A343s will sport the *A paintscheme. But then, maybe not all A343s will be transfered to CLH but will be converted into the jump layout and thus be operated by LH mainline crews. But this could be very complicated operational wise when you have an AOG and only an CLH or LH a/c available but you need the other.

Maybe some of the pilots has more information about the paintsheme solution. I am shure this was published to the union members if applicable.
 
FRAEDDF
Posts: 107
Joined: Fri May 01, 2015 8:35 am

RE: Lufthansa "Jump" And Star Alliance Branding

Wed Sep 16, 2015 7:04 am

Quoting galleypower (Reply 8):
I dont think this rules applies here.

I don´t think they would repaint all these aircraft if the rule didn´t apply here.

Quoting galleypower (Reply 8):
not all jump designated A343s will sport the *A paintscheme.

All eight A343 designated for "Jump" have been repainted into Star Alliance colors by now:

D-AIGP / D-AIGV / D-AIGW / D-AIGX / D-AIGY / D-AIFA / D-AIFE / D-AIFF
 
User avatar
KarelXWB
Posts: 26968
Joined: Sun Jul 15, 2012 6:13 pm

RE: Lufthansa "Jump" And Star Alliance Branding

Wed Sep 16, 2015 8:23 am

Quoting galleypower (Reply 8):
Jump was/is an LH internal project to find ways to reduce overall operating cost by 20%

So what's the idea behind the Eurowings A330 fleet? Will LH Group operate two low-cost long-haul fleets?
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
User avatar
RyanairGuru
Posts: 8351
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2006 3:59 am

RE: Lufthansa "Jump" And Star Alliance Branding

Wed Sep 16, 2015 8:35 am

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 10):

Jump isn't an LCC, as far as the passenger is concerned it is 100% Lufthansa. The differences are being the scenes in crewing etc (see above).

Eurowings is an actual LCC, more like Norwegian.

They are totally different products. That so many people on Anet are confused shows that the PR strategy was completely misguided and confusing. Jump was only supposed to be an internal designator for the project to move some 343s to CityLine, not unlike the LX 77Ws going to Swiss Global, and reconfiguring them for routes with lower premium demand.
Worked Hard, Flew Right
 
User avatar
mercure1
Posts: 4790
Joined: Sun Jul 13, 2008 5:13 am

RE: Lufthansa "Jump" And Star Alliance Branding

Wed Sep 16, 2015 4:55 pm

Some bits about the jump project from LH investor update:


Predominantly leisure markets will be served by the new ‘Jump’ enterprise of the carrier which will see Lufthansa CityLine fly up to 14 Airbus A340-300s reconfigured in a higher-density, three-class, 298-seat arrangement under the Lufthansa brand.

With the removal of a First Class cabin and instead an 18 seat Business Class offering and 280 seat Economy cabin with a 19-seat section offering its recently-launched Premium Economy product, a higher-density arrangement would better serve predominantly leisure markets.

“We see a promising growth potential on long-haul in the leisure travel business and Lufthansa intends to be more committed to this segment in the future,” said Karl Ulrich Garnadt, chief executive officer, Lufthansa German Airlines and member of the Lufthansa Board.

In GDS display, Lufthansa will display all ‘Jump’ A340-300 routes under the "LH" designation and flown using aircraft owned and operated by Lufthansa CityLine, but with cabin crew from Lufthansa.
mercure f-wtcc
 
galleypower
Posts: 267
Joined: Wed Jan 15, 2014 12:54 pm

RE: Lufthansa "Jump" And Star Alliance Branding

Thu Sep 17, 2015 4:45 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 10):
So what's the idea behind the Eurowings A330 fleet? Will LH Group operate two low-cost long-haul fleets?

You are not serious, are you? Read please!

Did some research today, yes, the reason for the *A paintjob is the pilot contract. Because they run under the CLH AOC, no LH paintscheme allowed.
 
User avatar
ua900
Moderator
Posts: 1599
Joined: Sun Feb 09, 2014 7:14 am

RE: Lufthansa "Jump" And Star Alliance Branding

Thu Sep 17, 2015 9:56 pm

Quoting FRAEDDF (Reply 9):
All eight A343 designated for "Jump" have been repainted into Star Alliance colors by now:

D-AIGP / D-AIGV / D-AIGW / D-AIGX / D-AIGY / D-AIFA / D-AIFE / D-AIFF

I don't see how that's different from the other mainline LH aircraft that wear the *A livery.

Any word on whether these planes say "Lufthansa" or "Lufthansa Cityline" under the "Star Alliance" lettering? Seems to me that they all say "Lufthansa" (based on a quick google search) and that's really the same branding as D-ABTH. I understand that it may say somewhere "Operated by LH Cityline" in some small font, but most customers would likely just see "Star Alliance" in huge letters and then "Lufthansa" right beneath that.

Quoting galleypower (Reply 13):
Did some research today, yes, the reason for the *A paintjob is the pilot contract. Because they run under the CLH AOC, no LH paintscheme allowed.

Doesn't seem like a huge roadblock given that it's so similar to mainline LH *A planes. Surprised they agreed to such a weak provision.

Quoting galleypower (Reply 8):
With the transfer of EMB a/c from CLH to OS there was surplus of pilots with CLH and a general shortage of pilots at LH. Instead of having to layoff the CLH pilots VC agreed to a transfer to the jump project and a deal to operate the A343s was worked out.

That seems like a very creative solution to say the least. Aren't remaining LH mainline staff afraid this might happen to them one day as well?
2020: AMS | BRU | DEN | DFW | EWR | FRA | IAH | LAX | MCO | MUC | ORD | PTY | SFO | TXL
 
VC10er
Posts: 4265
Joined: Tue Feb 20, 2007 6:25 am

RE: Lufthansa "Jump" And Star Alliance Branding

Fri Sep 18, 2015 2:18 pm

Where do these 8 A340-300's mostly fly to?
To Most the Sky is The Limit, For me, the Sky is Home.
 
FRAEDDF
Posts: 107
Joined: Fri May 01, 2015 8:35 am

RE: Lufthansa "Jump" And Star Alliance Branding

Fri Sep 18, 2015 4:06 pm

Quoting VC10er (Reply 15):
Where do these 8 A340-300's mostly fly to?

First destinations will be Cancun, Mauritius, Malé and Tampa. Panama City is scheduled to follow in March. More destinations are still being considered.
 
clrd4t8koff
Posts: 1659
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2005 3:57 am

RE: Lufthansa "Jump" And Star Alliance Branding

Fri Sep 18, 2015 6:19 pm

As for the J cabin on this aircraft - is it the same J seats as the rest of the LH A340 fleet, just a smaller amount of them. Or is it a new version J seat?
 
FRAEDDF
Posts: 107
Joined: Fri May 01, 2015 8:35 am

RE: Lufthansa "Jump" And Star Alliance Branding

Fri Sep 18, 2015 6:42 pm

Quoting clrd4t8koff (Reply 17):

Same seats, same product. Just different configuration, more Economy-heavy compared to the rest of the LH-fleet.
 
User avatar
ua900
Moderator
Posts: 1599
Joined: Sun Feb 09, 2014 7:14 am

RE: Lufthansa "Jump" And Star Alliance Branding

Sat Sep 19, 2015 1:16 am

Quoting VC10er (Reply 15):
First destinations will be Cancun, Mauritius, Malé and Tampa. Panama City is scheduled to follow in March. More destinations are still being considered.

Dumb question, if they're going head to head with DE why not just buy them back? Don't get me wrong, it's nice to see the LH livery in these leisure destinations. But it seems to me that buying DE back would be simpler and also that more people would be accepting of the concept since they still know it from the 80s.
2020: AMS | BRU | DEN | DFW | EWR | FRA | IAH | LAX | MCO | MUC | ORD | PTY | SFO | TXL
 
AA737-823
Posts: 5498
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2000 11:10 am

Re: Lufthansa

Thu Nov 10, 2016 10:37 am

So what's the status on this project?
Are ALL A343 in the STAR colors?
Is LH operating any routes?
My specific interest is DFW-FRA. Is that a "leisure" route with only 18 Biz seats?
 
Noshow
Posts: 1603
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 3:20 pm

Re: Lufthansa

Thu Nov 10, 2016 10:50 am

From the crew side cabin agreed to a way to save cost. No F Class, C class no more than 18 seats, purser will be integrated into parts of the service. This saves one FA for this layout. This rule will apply not only for the designated A343s but also for future aircraft with this layout eg A330 or even A350. So there will be no "jump" crews.


So all regular Lufthansa A330 and A350 might get one less flight attendant in the future? Even without being part of "Jump"? Or will "Jump" itself be expanded to other types beyound the A340-300?
Hard to see from a passenger standpoint that this is the very same service level than onboard "full" Lufthansa mainline with one more crewmember.
 
oldannyboy
Posts: 2573
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 8:28 am

Re: Lufthansa

Thu Nov 10, 2016 11:03 am

Perhaps I could be wrong, but I recently (very recently) flew on a LH 343 in Star colours which had the "old" layout with a lot more than 18 J seats... are then not all 343s in star c/l bound to be operated by Jump??
 
User avatar
ikolkyo
Posts: 2988
Joined: Tue Nov 05, 2013 8:43 pm

Re: Lufthansa

Thu Nov 10, 2016 11:56 am

oldannyboy wrote:
Perhaps I could be wrong, but I recently (very recently) flew on a LH 343 in Star colours which had the "old" layout with a lot more than 18 J seats... are then not all 343s in star c/l bound to be operated by Jump??


Jump A343s are in Star livery with 0 LH titles. LH still operates 1 maybe 2 A343s in its regular fleet in the Star livery with LH titles on the aircraft.
 
User avatar
KarelXWB
Posts: 26968
Joined: Sun Jul 15, 2012 6:13 pm

Re: Lufthansa

Thu Nov 10, 2016 12:04 pm

oldannyboy wrote:
Perhaps I could be wrong, but I recently (very recently) flew on a LH 343 in Star colours which had the "old" layout with a lot more than 18 J seats... are then not all 343s in star c/l bound to be operated by Jump??


Well here's the fleet:

https://www.planespotters.net/productio ... us=current

As you can see, some have to C18W19Y261 configuration while other still have F8C48Y165.
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
310815
Posts: 1039
Joined: Wed Nov 09, 2011 4:03 pm

Re: RE: Lufthansa

Thu Nov 10, 2016 12:21 pm

FRAEDDF wrote:
Quoting galleypower (Reply 8): I dont think this rules applies here.
I don´t think they would repaint all these aircraft if the rule didn´t apply here.

Quoting galleypower (Reply 8):not all jump designated A343s will sport the *A paintscheme.
All eight A343 designated for "Jump" have been repainted into Star Alliance colors by now:

D-AIGP / D-AIGV / D-AIGW / D-AIGX / D-AIGY / D-AIFA / D-AIFE / D-AIFF



Absolutely. The main point is (I am surprised it wasn't mentioned before) they didn't only repaint those aircraft in Star Alliance colours they did also remove any Lufthansa titles (which normally are on their Star Alliance planes as well).
This wasn't done by coincidence or so, Lufthansa is a professional Airline.

 
hjulicher
Posts: 698
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2005 2:26 pm

Re: Lufthansa

Thu Nov 10, 2016 12:46 pm

There are aircraft with the *A livery without the word Lufthansa below. These are the jump aircraft. The jump aircraft may not have the word Lufthansa on the fuselage.
Detroit Moves the World!
LH 442
 
727LOVER
Posts: 8621
Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2001 12:22 am

Re: RE: Lufthansa

Thu Nov 10, 2016 12:49 pm

Delta777Jet wrote:
Probably they would get another problem with the unions if they would paint it with LH logo.






Delta777Jet wrote:
Probably they would get another problem with the unions if they would paint it with LH logo.



Why is that. That's in their union contract?

Why doesn't it say JUMP?
"We must accept finite disappointment, but never lose infinite hope." - Martin Luther King, Jr.
 
Someone83
Topic Author
Posts: 4857
Joined: Sun Sep 17, 2006 5:47 pm

Re: RE: Lufthansa

Thu Nov 10, 2016 12:51 pm

727LOVER wrote:
Why doesn't it say JUMP?


Because it is not a brand. It is sold as Lufthansa, they just don't have the logo on the outside of the aircraft
 
fraT
Posts: 1174
Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2003 4:32 am

Re: Lufthansa

Thu Nov 10, 2016 8:04 pm

The "Jump" Aircraft A343s are officially labeled as LH operated by LH City Line because the pilots are City Line pilots for cost reasons. That's why they don't have LH titles.
 
NH203
Posts: 155
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2015 8:39 am

Re: RE: Lufthansa

Thu Nov 10, 2016 8:51 pm

galleypower wrote:
So much wrong after so many post concerning jump...

Cockpit was negociating, offered savings but could not find an agreement. The project was close of beeing buried and the A343s beeing sold or scrapped. Finally they came up with the CLH idea.

I know there is this rule about LH pilots only on LH branded a/c. I dont think this rules applies here. First this was all done with the consent for VC


LH didn't need VC's consent. The contract between LH and VC stipulated that LH may wetlease up to 6% of the cpacity that is operated as LH mainline. LH simply did that, by leasing this capacity in the form of the JUMP 343 from LH Cityline. VC just claimed in the media they were okay with it, because they couldn't do anything against it anyway and they tried to paint themselfs as "job savers" for CLH pilots.
 
AA737-823
Posts: 5498
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2000 11:10 am

Re: Lufthansa

Thu Nov 10, 2016 11:31 pm

I wasn't trying to reopen the can of worms.
I just want to know if any LH 343s are still in the traditional LH livery, operated by LH, and flown to Dallas!
 
a320fan
Posts: 838
Joined: Fri May 01, 2009 5:04 am

Re: Lufthansa

Fri Nov 11, 2016 12:27 am

AA737-823 wrote:
I wasn't trying to reopen the can of worms.
I just want to know if any LH 343s are still in the traditional LH livery, operated by LH, and flown to Dallas!

Yes, 13 are still with Lufthansa mainline, and Dallas is flown from this fleet.
A319, A320, A321, A330-200, A350-900, A380, 737-700, 737-800, 777-200ER, 777-300, 777-300ER, 787-8, Q300, Q400

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos