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TC957
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RE: QR Serious Incident At MIA On Sept. 15

Fri Sep 18, 2015 7:40 am

I've looked everywhere but don't see any images of the aircraft. I assumed it must have landed in DOH by now..
Anyone have any links?
[/quote]
I'd guess QR would have it towed to a hanger, doors locked and photos expressly forbidden to avoid negative publicity getting out there.
 
peterjohns
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RE: QR Serious Incident At MIA On Sept. 15

Fri Sep 18, 2015 8:24 am

Quoting spacecadet (Reply 46):

I´m quite with you on that one.
i wanted to point out that it -probably- , my guess only, was not a miscalculation (as there is always some headroom)
but a disorientation on the ground.
I understand that "T1" is the intersection and "T2" is the whole length?
That indeed could lead to a misinterpretation of the whereabouts - making them think they have the full length.

As an ATC myself I can backup all the colleagues here - If an aircraft wants to T/O from xyz on the active rwy direction
I wouldn´t question it - unless it would be an obvious mistake.
 
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qf789
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RE: QR Serious Incident At MIA On Sept. 15

Fri Sep 18, 2015 9:01 am

The following is on the Qatar source

Quote: Qatar Airways Boeing 777-3DZER A7-BAC entered the Doha maintenance facility for inspection and repair after arriving as QR778 from Miami this evening. On take off from Miami yesterday evening the aircraft struck runway lights sustaining belly damage in what the US Federal Aviation Authority is rating as an accident.

http://www.theqatarsource.com/qatar-...-maintenance-after-miami-incident/
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B8887
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RE: QR Serious Incident At MIA On Sept. 15

Fri Sep 18, 2015 10:14 am

A couple of things.

This is a very serious incident.

In the EK A345 incident in MEL, the pilots had pre-prepared letters of resignation waiting for them in DXB. Both did so.

In this case, it might be possible that the crew and ground observers in MIA did not notice it, especially by looking at that photo of the lightly damaged approach light. You have to have a very good reason not the use the full length of the runway on a 12 hour flight anywhere in the world.

Regards.

B8887
 
airplanenut
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RE: QR Serious Incident At MIA On Sept. 15

Fri Sep 18, 2015 11:38 am

Quoting chiki (Reply 49):
just a thought, can they not develop weigh bridges or put sensors on the tyres (tires) which measure the weight of an aircraft. I am not am engineer but i think its doable. its a critical component for every aircraft but its odd we are still using estimates in this day where people are getting larger and more carry on luggage.

That doesn't work because if there's any wind blowing over the wings, it will create some amount of lift, and even if it's small, that will skew the reported aircraft weight. When flight tests are done at very specific weights, the aircraft is weighed inside a hangar to remove the wind component.
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SKAirbus
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RE: QR Serious Incident At MIA On Sept. 15

Fri Sep 18, 2015 11:48 am

Yikes. I wouldn't want to be that pilot! QR aren't exactly leniant when it comes to their staff (who btw have zero rights).
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crownvic
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RE: QR Serious Incident At MIA On Sept. 15

Fri Sep 18, 2015 12:05 pm

Just curious, with no witnesses, late at night, and not the arrival end of runway where the approach lights were in use:

1) How soon after this incident was it discovered that the lights were damaged? minutes? hrs?

2) If it was hrs, How did they conclude it was the Qatar fight???

Not questioning if it was Qatar or not, just wondering how it was determined..
 
slvrblt
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RE: QR Serious Incident At MIA On Sept. 15

Fri Sep 18, 2015 12:32 pm

I live in Miami, grew up here in fact. I also work at the airport and have often stopped at the 94th Aero Squadron, a restaurant that has a big lot that you can spot from right along 9R/27L . I have *never* seen a heavy, or any aircraft for that matter, turn at that spot for takeoff and ignore the rest of that runway. I mean, its not like they don't know there's more runway. Even at night, the area is well lit, it is bordered by the American Airlines cargo building, LAN cargo, and several other freight company warehouses and terminals. and of course there are taxiway/field lights. The employee parking lot for the airport is at the other end of that runway. A fully loaded 747 in the summer will use the whole runway, and not clear the employee lot by very much. They're always setting off the car alarms as they go over. LAN's cargo 777's are a little better, they rotate sooner than the quads but it's still a looooud roar as they go over. LH's A380 uses it for landing and takeoff as well.
Those approach lights Qatar took out are the lowest to the ground for that runway - the taller ones for 9/27 are out in what is the employee parking lot. It's super scary to think a loaded down 77W took off from where it did, and frankly astounding it got off the ground. He must have cleared the employee parking lot, and LeJeune Road, by under 200 feet.
..everything works out in the end.
 
LTC8K6
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RE: QR Serious Incident At MIA On Sept. 15

Fri Sep 18, 2015 12:51 pm

Quoting chiki (Reply 49):
just a thought, can they not develop weigh bridges or put sensors on the tyres (tires) which measure the weight of an aircraft. I am not am engineer but i think its doable. its a critical component for every aircraft but its odd we are still using estimates in this day where people are getting larger and more carry on luggage.

The military has been doing that for a long time. Several companies make scales for weighing large aircraft and calculating the CG.

I was a metrologist in the US Army, and we would calibrate these types of scales.

http://www.leadingedgecorp.com/services/military/weighing/

Some newer airliners probably incorporate weighing into their landing gear system.
 
797
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RE: QR Serious Incident At MIA On Sept. 15

Fri Sep 18, 2015 1:07 pm

Quoting Miami (Reply 17):
QR778 didn't even use the whole runway. First time I've ever seen that at MIA for runway 9.

Departing from T1 is nonsense. This is a fully loaded airliner, and I believe QR's SOPs require full-length takeoff on any long-haul flight. Can anyone verify this?

Quoting N1120A (Reply 19):
There are lots of reasons. Runway construction, spacing, timing, etc.

MIA has runway 8R, which comes at 10,506ft and it's the immediate substitute for Runway 9.

Even though Runway 9 is 13,016ft, any heavy airliner can depart with 10,000ft of runway, night time, and sea-level elevation.

I blame the crew 100% for this. I wish we had some photos of the belly!

797
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mmo
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RE: QR Serious Incident At MIA On Sept. 15

Fri Sep 18, 2015 1:14 pm

Quoting 797 (Reply 59):
Departing from T1 is nonsense. This is a fully loaded airliner, and I believe QR's SOPs require full-length takeoff on any long-haul flight. Can anyone verify this?

There is NO such policy as of this writing. If you have the takeoff performance to depart using an intersection, you can use it.

Quoting 797 (Reply 59):
Even though Runway 9 is 13,016ft, any heavy airliner can depart with 10,000ft of runway, night time, and sea-level elevation.

You might not want to make such all encompassing statements. I can think of several older generation heavies that will not make it. In this case, with full T/O used in performance calculations the 77W should have been able to depart with no problems at all. My best guess is the crew was unfamiliar with KMIA and used the full length for departure performance calculations. No one caught the intersection departure or they assumed they had reached the end and were using the full length.
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turjo101
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RE: QR Serious Incident At MIA On Sept. 15

Fri Sep 18, 2015 1:21 pm

Quoting SKAirbus (Reply 55):
QR aren't exactly leniant when it comes to their staff (who btw have zero rights).

That's right we almost forgot- they can be sold off as pilot slaves to the harems of the neighboring Sheikdoms.   
 
797
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RE: QR Serious Incident At MIA On Sept. 15

Fri Sep 18, 2015 1:26 pm

Quoting mmo (Reply 60):
You might not want to make such all encompassing statements. I can think of several older generation heavies that will not make it. In this case, with full T/O used in performance calculations the 77W should have been able to depart with no problems at all. My best guess is the crew was unfamiliar with KMIA and used the full length for departure performance calculations. No one caught the intersection departure or they assumed they had reached the end and were using the full length.

I stand corrected, thanks for the clarification. Though, I've taxied myself to Runway 9's full-length intersection at night time and the taxiway lightning is pretty well set up. There's no way you'd cut to T1 thinking it's the runway's last entry.

797
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AT
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RE: QR Serious Incident At MIA On Sept. 15

Fri Sep 18, 2015 1:35 pm

Quoting mmo (Reply 60):
My best guess is the crew was unfamiliar with KMIA and used the full length for departure performance calculations.

If it was a night time departure, wouldn't the runway lights be able to tell you that you're not at the threshold?

Anyway, let's hope some pictures show up soon so we can see the aircraft and the assumed damage.
 
yv773p
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RE: QR Serious Incident At MIA On Sept. 15

Fri Sep 18, 2015 1:42 pm

They were cleared to take off from T1 and I'm sure they just put the wrong calculation in the computer. I think people are overblowing the intersection aspect. Maybe there was a NOTAM for that runway?
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qf789
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RE: QR Serious Incident At MIA On Sept. 15

Fri Sep 18, 2015 1:55 pm

FG reports the following damage to the aircraft

Quote: “Qatar… reported to the FAA that they found some dents and scratches on the belly of flight 778, a Boeing 777,” the agency says in a statement to Flightglobal.

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...lights-on-take-off-from-mi-416879/

In another FG article it suggests visibility was good and there were only light winds

Quote: Meteorological data for Miami at the time of the departure – which would have taken place after sunset – indicates only light winds, and good visibility, although there was rain in the vicinity.

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...777-conducted-intersection-416895/
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qf789
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RE: QR Serious Incident At MIA On Sept. 15

Fri Sep 18, 2015 2:10 pm

Quote: The aircraft lined-up on runway 09 via taxiway „Tango 1“, reducing the available take-off distance by approximately 1370 meters (from 3968 meters to 2600 meters) and commenced its take-off run after receiving ATC clearance.
It is understood the Boeing 777 used the entire lengh of the runway until its mainwheels left the ground. Immediately after getting airborne, some parts of the aircraft collided with a number of approach lights, atop a series of 6 meters tall masts.
The damaged approach lights were located about 60 meteres behind the end of the paved overrun area and about 180 meters behind the runway threshold.


Here's a picture of the end of the runway.



http://www.jacdec.de/2015/09/17/2015...7-300-hit-approach-masts-at-miami/
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tp1040
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RE: QR Serious Incident At MIA On Sept. 15

Fri Sep 18, 2015 3:16 pm

Sure, pilots take off on shorten runways, but I disagree with the practice. It leads to mistakes like this. Spacial orientation being one problem.

Then again, I don't like the concept of back tracking.

Both are short cuts in a properly operating aviation system.
 
ETinCaribe
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RE: QR Serious Incident At MIA On Sept. 15

Fri Sep 18, 2015 3:48 pm

Ouffff!!! At least no one got hurt with this one. I drive on the perimeter road often, and just a few days ago, was at the east edge of the runway 9/27 when the LH A380 took over just over my head and it must had been at about 100m above ground. Though as mentioned above, I don't understand why QR778 used intersection T1.

Lots of lessons learnt here but at least no one got hurt!
 
FriscoHeavy
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RE: QR Serious Incident At MIA On Sept. 15

Fri Sep 18, 2015 3:52 pm

Does anyone know when the MLG Wheel Bogey finally got off the ground? Did the takeoff run take it all the way into the overrun area (with yellow "arrows") or was it able to lift off before the end of the runway?
Whatever
 
N1120A
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RE: QR Serious Incident At MIA On Sept. 15

Fri Sep 18, 2015 4:00 pm

Quoting tp1040 (Reply 67):

Sure, pilots take off on shorten runways, but I disagree with the practice. It leads to mistakes like this. Spacial orientation being one problem.

Why on earth would you disagree with the practice? It is done all the time, quite safely, and allows airports to remain nearly completely normal operationally during construction and other issues. If ORD didn't have Tango 10 departures, it would create huge problems. If LAX couldn't use shortened runways, the current runway project would be really disruptive. The problem here is that the pilots, likely, didn't pay attention to 1) the fact that they were using a relatively short stretch and 2) didn't use the correct calculations. They could, and probably should, have requested 8R/26L, or full length if available.

Quoting 797 (Reply 59):
MIA has runway 8R, which comes at 10,506ft and it's the immediate substitute for Runway 9.

Even though Runway 9 is 13,016ft, any heavy airliner can depart with 10,000ft of runway, night time, and sea-level elevation.

Sure, though 9/27 is only 12,800 feet and 8R/26L is 11,155 feet.

Quoting peterjohns (Reply 29):
The reason is that each pax is considered 150lbs - with hand luggage.
Quoting 747-600X (Reply 47):

I'm amused by pax only being assumed at 150 lbs. Everything I've heard if in the US uses 190 or 195!

150 lbs makes no sense, at all. Even in dismissing people being heavier in the US. I'm pretty sure it is 190 summer and 195 winter.
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Navion
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RE: QR Serious Incident At MIA On Sept. 15

Fri Sep 18, 2015 4:15 pm

There's an old adage used by pilots which says "there's nothing as useless as runway behind you and altitude above you".

That said, with all of the back and forth on this thread, the most compelling facts to me (I've lived here in South Florida ad flown out of MIA my whole life - 53 years) are:

1) They were departing on one of the longest flights out of MIA, a flight which has at times exceeded 13 hours, and they performed an intersection takeoff - - that's just plain reckless (see old adage above) and;

2) Not only did they see the end of the runway coming up fast, but they obviosly knew they were extremely low going off the end of the runway - - the visual clues were all there (runway end lights; perimeter road lights; parking lot lights across the street and canal) as well as their altimeters and radar altimeters so to press on and conduct the rest of a 13 hour flight just defies belief.

I'm glad I wasn't spotting that night as I'm sure it would have scared the daylights out of me.
 
airplanenut
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RE: QR Serious Incident At MIA On Sept. 15

Fri Sep 18, 2015 4:26 pm

Quoting AT (Reply 63):

If it was a night time departure, wouldn't the runway lights be able to tell you that you're not at the threshold?

There are a lot of visual cues. First, the runway sign at any intersection shows both numbers (ie, 9/27) indicating you can be on either runway depending on which way you turn. At the end of the runway, the sign only shows on runway number since you can only turn one direction. In addition, if you taxi onto the start of the runway, you'll see the paint for the end of the runway and the runway number itself. Entering at an intersection won't show either.
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cschleic
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RE: QR Serious Incident At MIA On Sept. 15

Fri Sep 18, 2015 4:55 pm

Quoting airplanenut (Reply 72):
There are a lot of visual cues. First, the runway sign at any intersection shows both numbers (ie, 9/27) indicating you can be on either runway depending on which way you turn. At the end of the runway, the sign only shows on runway number since you can only turn one direction. In addition, if you taxi onto the start of the runway, you'll see the paint for the end of the runway and the runway number itself. Entering at an intersection won't show either.

True, although looking at an aerial photo of rwy 9 specifically.... it has an extended takeoff area (the formal name escapes me at the moment), with the displaced threshold further down. Going full length, you don't see the numbers and piano keys until down the runway. So in either case, full length or T-1, you don't see large markings on the runway itself when turning onto it.

The other interesting thing is...taxiway Tango sort of dead-ends at T-1. To go to the runway end, you have to turn right onto Sierra, then left and continue.

Could either of those be confusing at night?

[Edited 2015-09-18 10:01:25]
 
na
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RE: QR Serious Incident At MIA On Sept. 15

Fri Sep 18, 2015 4:58 pm

Where is a picture of the damaged plane?
 
peterjohns
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RE: QR Serious Incident At MIA On Sept. 15

Fri Sep 18, 2015 5:00 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 70):

In the seventies into the eighties it was 75Kg per Pax. 150lbs.
It was however raised to 82,4Kg 165lbs.

https://www.casa.gov.au/sites/g/files/net351/f/_assets/main/download/caaps/ops/235_1.pdf

It is very low--including carry-on! But there are forces who do not want it raised. Guess who!?   

Well at least nothing happened- but close...
 
ltbewr
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RE: QR Serious Incident At MIA On Sept. 15

Fri Sep 18, 2015 5:26 pm

I would presume the FDR and VDR will be pulled - if not already - and examined as well computer data used to determine what happened and where.
We have seen pilots in the dark make wrong turns and take off from shorter than intended takeoff points as some have suggested here.
Maybe an autopilot, flap or engine setting was a bit off. Maybe the PIC was given wrong info by ATC. Maybe an engine was just at 95% vs. 100% of operation for the setting they had for takeoff.
Maybe they just didn't pull up on final leaving the runway as just the correct angle or the autopilot miscalculated.
Even missing by 0.1 or putting in 0.1 instead of 1.0 on some input could have caused this.
Let's face it too, humans do make errors in judgment.
Luckily the structures at the end of the runway were not large, hard objects that are likly designed intentionally for such possible strikes. Still this was a serious incident and will lead to a through examination of QR's internal procedures, pilots's decision making, possible ATC/Ground ATC errors and other areas.
 
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readytotaxi
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RE: QR Serious Incident At MIA On Sept. 15

Fri Sep 18, 2015 5:39 pm

Quoting ccs757 (Thread starter):

I have a question about the original picture.
It shows four orange poles, should there be lights on each?
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crownvic
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RE: QR Serious Incident At MIA On Sept. 15

Fri Sep 18, 2015 5:56 pm

Just curious, with no witnesses, late at night, and not the arrival end of runway where the approach lights were in use:

1) How soon after this incident was it discovered that the lights were damaged? minutes? hrs?

2) If it was hrs, How did they conclude it was the Qatar fight???

Not questioning if it was Qatar or not, just wondering how it was determined..


ANYONE???
 
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usxguy
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RE: QR Serious Incident At MIA On Sept. 15

Fri Sep 18, 2015 6:03 pm

Sounds like she was still in ground effect...
xx
 
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qf789
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RE: QR Serious Incident At MIA On Sept. 15

Fri Sep 18, 2015 6:17 pm

Quoting na (Reply 74):
Where is a picture of the damaged plane?

That's a good question. I did a search to find out if it had been reported in the news in Qatar and I couldn't find anything. In the limited reports online many suggest that both the airline and the Qatar civil aviation authority have been sought for comment but are not available to comment on the accident. Though I don't want to jump to conclusions I do find this interesting as normally after something like this has happened the airline would make a statement that an accident/incident has occurred and that they are cooperating with authorities investigating it.

What's everyone else's thoughts on this?
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apfpilot
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RE: QR Serious Incident At MIA On Sept. 15

Fri Sep 18, 2015 6:23 pm

I don't see any reason why intersection departures should be under the spotlight here. As mentioned above, they are quite useful and if the OPC says it can be done then why not?
Second, my guess as to how the damage was discovered is that MIA may have a system that alerts the tower or operations when lights are INOP and that would have indicated the damage, or there may have been a runway inspection being performed after departure that caught it (not an SOP runway inspection like the A388 at IAD but just a standard inspection.)
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kaitak
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RE: QR Serious Incident At MIA On Sept. 15

Fri Sep 18, 2015 6:49 pm

Quoting qf789 (Reply 80):
That's a good question. I did a search to find out if it had been reported in the news in Qatar and I couldn't find anything

Not at all surprised at this; Qatar Airways is Qatar in the air, the state carrier and Qatar is hardly known for press freedom. This is hardly something the authorities would want people to know about.

Quoting qf789 (Reply 80):
In the limited reports online many suggest that both the airline and the Qatar civil aviation authority have been sought for comment but are not available to comment on the accident

Local journalists would probably know not to ask questions like this. As for others, probably a curt "no comment".

Quoting qf789 (Reply 80):
normally after something like this has happened the airline would make a statement that an accident/incident has occurred and that they are cooperating with authorities investigating it.

Again, not in Qatar. They do the minimum necessary to satisfy international obligations, such as reporting to the US authorities, but nothing more. The NTSB will probably send a team over to inspect and photograph the aircraft and we will probably not see that until the NTSB finalises the reports. The Qatari embassy in Washington will probably be doing its best to ensure there is no adverse consequences for the airline. They will be keen to do everything they can to hush this up.
 
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TheRedBaron
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RE: QR Serious Incident At MIA On Sept. 15

Fri Sep 18, 2015 6:50 pm

Quoting Navion (Reply 71):
1) They were departing on one of the longest flights out of MIA, a flight which has at times exceeded 13 hours, and they performed an intersection takeoff - - that's just plain reckless (see old adage above) and;

I am often quite lenient on Pilots, because their lives are on the line as the PAX, in this case I am astounded that a long haul flight departed from a shortened take off roll, even if the weight calcs check, and the engine power is OK, its much better to have room to spare in case of any mishap, than to be up against the wall if TSHTF....

Quoting na (Reply 74):
Where is a picture of the damaged plane?

If MIAMI or KAREXWB doesn't have such a pic, then there is none in existence...  

Regards

TRB
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musapapaya
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RE: QR Serious Incident At MIA On Sept. 15

Fri Sep 18, 2015 7:27 pm

I may well be biased but I have really negative impression on QR on a return flight between MAN to DPS (6 sectors in total).

I know I was only flying in Y class but twice in the 6 sectors I was served snack rolls which were still frozen inside. The outside of the item was warm but inside was frozen.

I fed back on both occasions and on one occasion I got a replacement which was slightly better and second occasion I got told (after the FA felt the packaging) that 'its warm'.

This incident is of course not related but to me, it highlights the fundamental issue that the culture within QR do not encourage things to be taken seriously enough and possibly procedures not followed, and challenges by others not accepted.

I know they have wonderful hardware in premium cabins but I don't think they are worth 5 star.....
 
apfpilot
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RE: QR Serious Incident At MIA On Sept. 15

Fri Sep 18, 2015 7:31 pm

Here is an example of the airport lighting status system that I mentioned above: http://www.adb-air.com/media/Documen...20Style%207_v8_HR%20NO%20BLEED.pdf
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mugler
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RE: QR Serious Incident At MIA On Sept. 15

Fri Sep 18, 2015 7:41 pm

Quoting na (Reply 74):
Where is a picture of the damaged plane?

Well after the incident the plane has not left DOH and don't think we'll see a picture of the damage ever unless someone at DOH takes a pic and somehow finds the internet
 
Whiteguy
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RE: QR Serious Incident At MIA On Sept. 15

Fri Sep 18, 2015 8:29 pm

Quoting Navion (Reply 71):
the longest flights out of MIA, a flight which has at times exceeded 13 hours, and they performed an intersection takeoff - - that's just plain reckless

And yet thousands of flight depart like this every day....

Not reckless at all, if you meet the performance numbers it's safe to do so. It's no different taking off from an intersection of a 12000 ft runway at 8500 feet or a 8500 foot runway....
 
AIRWALK
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RE: QR Serious Incident At MIA On Sept. 15

Fri Sep 18, 2015 8:51 pm

Quoting musapapaya (Reply 84):
This incident is of course not related but to me, it highlights the fundamental issue that the culture within QR do not encourage things to be taken seriously enough and possibly procedures not followed, and challenges by others not accepted.

You're not seriously suggesting that because your snack roll was frozen that QR doesn't have proper safety procedures and would knowingly risk the lives of passengers.


The crew did not know they made contact. No pilot would continue flying if they knew their aircraft was hit, regardless of culture, airline or whatever else.

The real issue here is that the aircraft began its takeoff roll from a position in which it did not have adequate safety margins.
I'm sure this thread will take off soon
 
slvrblt
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RE: QR Serious Incident At MIA On Sept. 15

Fri Sep 18, 2015 9:18 pm

Quoting AIRWALK (Reply 88):
The real issue here is that the aircraft began its takeoff roll from a position in which it did not have adequate safety margins.

Says it all right there.
..everything works out in the end.
 
Rdh3e
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RE: QR Serious Incident At MIA On Sept. 15

Fri Sep 18, 2015 9:22 pm

Quoting AIRWALK (Reply 88):
The crew did not know they made contact. No pilot would continue flying if they knew their aircraft was hit, regardless of culture, airline or whatever else.

You don't know any of this. They very well may be under pressure to complete the flights and not turn back. It's well documented what management pressure can do to crew decision making. Same is true in the private jet world where many crashes have been blamed on clients pressuring pilots to fly in unsafe conditions.

Let's wait for some details before we exonerate or vilify anyone.
 
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notaxonrotax
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RE: QR Serious Incident At MIA On Sept. 15

Fri Sep 18, 2015 9:35 pm

The fact that people expect transparency from QR makes me giggle.
Let's hope for some kind of mysterious leak for us to be able to see the damage anytime soon. Otherwise....I don't think it will happen.


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Navion
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RE: QR Serious Incident At MIA On Sept. 15

Fri Sep 18, 2015 9:58 pm

Quoting Whiteguy (Reply 87):
And yet thousands of flight depart like this every day....

That is patently untrue that "thousands" of the longest haul flights make intersection takeoffs every day. There may be hundreds of short haul, maybe even medium haul which can get away with it but not the longest haul flights.

Furthermore, of the hundreds of flights I've made I can't recall the last time our jet took off from an intersection. General Aviation or Commuter class, sure they do it now and then, but it isn't that prevalent for the majors.

Let's not take our eye off the ball here. A flight from MIA to Doha Qatar took off from an intersection and the most obvious thing happened, they damn near ran off the runway. It's a bad practice and I can't recall the last time I saw an intersection takeoff for a Transatlantic flight (or longer as is the present case) on MIA's runway 9.
 
jpetekyxmd80
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RE: QR Serious Incident At MIA On Sept. 15

Fri Sep 18, 2015 10:03 pm

I've taken off in a 777 on ORD-HNL from an intersection with about 8,000 ' of runway remaining. I don't generally like the concept, but its pragmatically necessary sometimes.

The issue isn't that they used the T1 intersection, its that they didn't know the proper place to take off they were configured for. Theres little doubt they could've taken off comfortably from T1 if they knew that is what they were doing.
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TKA380
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RE: QR Serious Incident At MIA On Sept. 15

Fri Sep 18, 2015 10:32 pm

Quoting jpetekyxmd80 (Reply 93):
I've taken off in a 777 on ORD-HNL from an intersection with about 8,000 ' of runway remaining. I don't generally like the concept, but its pragmatically necessary sometimes.

Could've been a light load (pax & cargo wise too)? That's 4,200 miles vs 7,600 miles so definitely less fuel.
 
dfwjim1
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RE: QR Serious Incident At MIA On Sept. 15

Fri Sep 18, 2015 10:39 pm

Did anyone working at MIA and/or driving in the immediate area see the takeoff and the strike? Seems like a 777 taking off
right at the end of 09 would have drawn some attention from somebody.
 
Whiteguy
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RE: QR Serious Incident At MIA On Sept. 15

Fri Sep 18, 2015 10:52 pm

Quoting Navion (Reply 92):


Furthermore, of the hundreds of flights I've made I can't recall the last time our jet took off from an intersection. General Aviation or Commuter class, sure they do it now and then, but it isn't that prevalent for the majors.


And I've been number 14 for take off on 7L and watched the 13 in front depart from A8 intersection, YYC from Z or S on 17L/35R, or ORD.....but hey what do I know.....

Carry on.....
 
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LAX772LR
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RE: QR Serious Incident At MIA On Sept. 15

Fri Sep 18, 2015 11:03 pm

Quoting yv773p (Reply 64):
I'm sure they just put the wrong calculation in the computer. I think people are overblowing the intersection aspect.

Oh, "just" that.  


Quoting Navion (Reply 92):
That is patently untrue that "thousands" of the longest haul flights make intersection takeoffs every day. There may be hundreds of short haul, maybe even medium haul which can get away with it but not the longest haul flights.

Meh, it's sorta true-- plenty of the longest flights out there take off from less than max-available runway.

For example: while it's not an intersection, it's common for flights like LAX - AUH/DXB/JED/etc to use 24L, which is several thousand feet shorter than the longest available runway, and more than a thousand feet shorter than even the second longest runway.

And all of those flights are way longer than MIA-DOH.
Heck, even LAX-SIN and LAX-BKK commonly used that runway, when they were still around.

Longhauls using significantly less-than-available runway is far more common than you seem to think... doesn't really matter whether it comes in the form of selecting an intersection or of selecting a shorter runway; you're still choosing to use way less than you otherwise could've had.



Quoting TKA380 (Reply 94):
That's 4,200 miles vs 7,600 miles so definitely less fuel.

But also less aircraft. 772A vs 773ER.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
jpetekyxmd80
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RE: QR Serious Incident At MIA On Sept. 15

Fri Sep 18, 2015 11:06 pm

Quoting TKA380 (Reply 94):

Could've been a light load (pax & cargo wise too)? That's 4,200 miles vs 7,600 miles so definitely less fuel.

I'm not directly comparing the situations.

It was a fully loaded 77A, which has great performance and this was no problem.

77W also has great performance. Purely anecdotal , but ive flown a 77W ORD-NRT that used 6,000 ft. Light load, but still.

You don't need to do anything further but spot at LAX or look at all the LAX photos and see that 77Ws take off to all corners of the globe routinely using 8,000 feet of runway all day long.

Everything points to calculations based on a 13,000 foot runway. 10,000 would've been fine for the 77W as long as it knew what it had to do.
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longhauler
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RE: QR Serious Incident At MIA On Sept. 15

Fri Sep 18, 2015 11:14 pm

Quoting jpetekyxmd80 (Reply 93):
The issue isn't that they used the T1 intersection, its that they didn't know the proper place to take off they were configured for. Theres little doubt they could've taken off comfortably from T1 if they knew that is what they were doing.

That's the impression I get, not that they tried something reckless, but that they didn't even know it to begin with.

I ran the numbers through our preformance computer and the best I could get is a 37,000 Kg penalty for using T1 instead of the full length. For a MIA-DOH flight, I don't see how a departure from T1 could have been done legally.

They were very very lucky. Not only that they got the boat airborne, but that the damage incurred didn't land them in the Atlantic after!
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!

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