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PW100
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FX To Fly Falcon Jets Again?

Fri Sep 18, 2015 10:05 pm

How nice would that be . . . !

Quote:

FedEx has commenced discussions with Dassault on a possible order for new Falcon business jets, a top Dassault executive said on 17 September.

In recent weeks, however, Fred Smith has re-engaged with Dassault in sales discussions . . ."
http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...uss-potential-falcon-order-416927/
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kevintarmac
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RE: FX To Fly Falcon Jets Again?

Fri Sep 18, 2015 10:14 pm

I don't think the economics of converted business jets can come close to those of ATRs and Caravans for short haul regional ops. I guess Kalitta Charters uses falcons for cargo ops successfully.
 
flyDTW1992
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RE: FX To Fly Falcon Jets Again?

Fri Sep 18, 2015 10:50 pm

Quoting kevintarmac (Reply 1):
I don't think the economics of converted business jets can come close to those of ATRs and Caravans for short haul regional ops. I guess Kalitta Charters uses falcons for cargo ops successfully.

I must say I'm surprised. The Falcons used by Kalitta Charters, USA Jet, Ameristar, and others are long paid for, and carry high-margin ad hoc charter freight, really not the same as package operations.

FedEx wouldn't be talking about it if it didn't make some kind of sense, though. Will be interesting to see where it goes.
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KGRB
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RE: FX To Fly Falcon Jets Again?

Fri Sep 18, 2015 11:28 pm

If they want small jets, why not pull some CRJ-200s or EMB-145s out of the desert and put them back to work? They would certainly be cheaper to acquire and can handle more payload.
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Stitch
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RE: FX To Fly Falcon Jets Again?

Fri Sep 18, 2015 11:30 pm

I assume we're talking about a cargo version of the Dassault Falcon 2000 and not the trip-jet family?

FX's original frames were Falcon 20s, which were also twins.
 
32andBelow
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RE: FX To Fly Falcon Jets Again?

Sat Sep 19, 2015 12:01 am

Out of curiosity what type of service would fedex use this for? Short range parcels? Or on demand we need this box here NOW type operation?
 
flyDTW1992
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RE: FX To Fly Falcon Jets Again?

Sat Sep 19, 2015 12:05 am

Quoting 32andBelow (Reply 5):
Out of curiosity what type of service would fedex use this for? Short range parcels? Or on demand we need this box here NOW type operation?

Their "Custom Critical" division already has access to their Learjet and Challenger corporate jet fleets in extreme situations (and for a hefty price, of course), if I remember correctly.
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tb727
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RE: FX To Fly Falcon Jets Again?

Sat Sep 19, 2015 12:43 am

That would be kinda cool, I flew some of the original FedEx Falcons 35 years later and they were the best planes in the fleet. It's the pickup truck of the skies.

Reliant operated a bunch of them for FedEx in the 90's thru the early 2000's and they put all their eggs in that basket which ended up being putting them out of business.
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northwestEWR
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RE: FX To Fly Falcon Jets Again?

Sat Sep 19, 2015 3:15 am

Quoting KGRB (Reply 3):
If they want small jets, why not pull some CRJ-200s or EMB-145s out of the desert and put them back to work? They would certainly be cheaper to acquire and can handle more payload.

I'm not so sure on the payload side of things. The real restriction would come from landing weight--where the CRJ is usually limited just carrying passengers and some bags. It would be very difficult if they had a more dense payload like cargo onboard. Then there's the issue of getting a door modification. I'm not sure the ERJ is wide enough to make that useful.

And then the RJs that have been parked are beat to s*it at this point and have had their good parts traded for lousy ones before being parked. It would be a real headache to fly these airplanes again.
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flyDTW1992
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RE: FX To Fly Falcon Jets Again?

Sat Sep 19, 2015 3:21 am

Quoting northwestEWR (Reply 8):
I'm not so sure on the payload side of things. The real restriction would come from landing weight--where the CRJ is usually limited just carrying passengers and some bags. It would be very difficult if they had a more dense payload like cargo onboard. Then there's the issue of getting a door modification. I'm not sure the ERJ is wide enough to make that useful.

First CRJ converted freighter should be delivered to IFL in PTK (who is a Falcon 20 operator) sometime soon. They're not bulking that thing out with packages, they do almost exclusively automotive on-demand freight that generally won't come close to max payload.

I don't think the ERJ is particularly viable for the reason you mentioned. Overall I agree, I don't think used RJs are what FedEx needs.
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kevintarmac
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RE: FX To Fly Falcon Jets Again?

Sat Sep 19, 2015 3:24 am

Quoting KGRB (Reply 3):

Fantastic point, pretty sure MIA is home to a company that does conversions for the CRJ-200s but is there anyone making freighter ERJs?
 
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TWA772LR
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RE: FX To Fly Falcon Jets Again?

Sat Sep 19, 2015 3:29 am

Are these just to replace the ATRs or those and the caravans?

That article also states FX was under "political pressure" to operate props. Can someone elaborate?
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32andBelow
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RE: FX To Fly Falcon Jets Again?

Sat Sep 19, 2015 3:31 am

Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 11):
Are these just to replace the ATRs or those and the caravans?

That article also states FX was under "political pressure" to operate props. Can someone elaborate?

None of those are operated by FX. I suppose they could end the contracts, but it would not be a replacement in their fleet. I couldn't see the jets replacing the ATR's and caravans in Alaska for example.
 
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northwestEWR
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RE: FX To Fly Falcon Jets Again?

Sat Sep 19, 2015 3:37 am

Quoting flyDTW1992 (Reply 9):

Under that scenario--the CRJ is probably fine but in a FX style operation, I expect they'd have issues with landing weights. High dollar specialty freight should be doable for IFL and if FX wants a number of CRJs for Custom Critical, that could probably work but the ATR and Caravans are economical goldmines for FX's style of operations.
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HPRamper
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RE: FX To Fly Falcon Jets Again?

Sat Sep 19, 2015 6:43 am

Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 11):
Are these just to replace the ATRs or those and the caravans?

The Cessnas aren't going away, this would have to be about the ATRs. The Falcon jet would seem to be a perfect fit for a glaring operational hole right now...when the last plane leaving a market breaks down. Currently if there's no nearby sweep flight to drop in for recovery, an entire plane-load can be bumped and miss commit date. With a Falcon on standby at some of the biggest ramps, at least the highest priority freight can be recovered and flown to MEM in time whereas an ATR, even if available will take much longer to get there.
 
flyDTW1992
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RE: FX To Fly Falcon Jets Again?

Sat Sep 19, 2015 6:55 am

Quoting HPRamper (Reply 14):
The Cessnas aren't going away, this would have to be about the ATRs. The Falcon jet would seem to be a perfect fit for a glaring operational hole right now...when the last plane leaving a market breaks down. Currently if there's no nearby sweep flight to drop in for recovery, an entire plane-load can be bumped and miss commit date. With a Falcon on standby at some of the biggest ramps, at least the highest priority freight can be recovered and flown to MEM in time whereas an ATR, even if available will take much longer to get there.

So we're likely talking about what amounts to a small batch of service recovery aircraft...Maybe half a dozen to a dozen frames? That does sound like an interesting/potentially useful setup. I wonder what the cost for configuring late model Falcons into package carriers looks like, and whether it would be worthwhile for a small buy.
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Max Q
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RE: FX To Fly Falcon Jets Again?

Sat Sep 19, 2015 7:54 am

Anyone know if FDX used to carry packages loose on their Falcons or were they loaded in some
kind of small pallet(s) ?

[Edited 2015-09-19 00:54:48]
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HPRamper
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RE: FX To Fly Falcon Jets Again?

Sat Sep 19, 2015 7:57 am

Quoting flyDTW1992 (Reply 15):
So we're likely talking about what amounts to a small batch of service recovery aircraft...Maybe half a dozen to a dozen frames? That does sound like an interesting/potentially useful setup.

Of course I'm purely speculating based on my perception that there are many places suitable for props that a jet just can't handle. But I'd say 15-20ish for that idea. If we are looking at replacing the majority of the ATR fleet...well, there's a lot of those.
 
Millenium
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RE: FX To Fly Falcon Jets Again?

Sat Sep 19, 2015 9:46 am

Would be interesting to know witch type they are discussing

Quote:
“and we are discussing that maybe we’ll upgrade to a bigger Falcon soon.”

If they want a twin they only has the Falcon 2000 right now with the 5X in the pipeline.

Quote:
"Rosanallon clarified that FedEx is interested in a new freighter to replace turboprop."

Seems they want to replace turboprop not invest in service recovery aircraft...

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RE: FX To Fly Falcon Jets Again?

Sat Sep 19, 2015 10:46 am

Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 11):
That article also states FX was under "political pressure" to operate props. Can someone elaborate?

Probably something to do with very short and/or unimproved/gravel strips.
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HPRamper
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RE: FX To Fly Falcon Jets Again?

Sat Sep 19, 2015 1:14 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 19):
Probably something to do with very short and/or unimproved/gravel strips.

As well as some small markets where NIMBYs are dead set against those loud jets but ok with props.
 
jetstar
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RE: FX To Fly Falcon Jets Again?

Sat Sep 19, 2015 3:20 pm

Quoting Max Q (Reply 16):
Anyone know if FDX used to carry packages loose on their Falcons or were they loaded in some
kind of small pallet(s) ?

From what I remember back when Federal Express started, all packages on the Falcon 20’s were hand loaded, they did not have any containers. Also it was the co-pilots jobs to help unload the airplane, I believe they even carried 2 co-pilots for this reason.

Because of this many co-pilots left the company, they felt it was below their dignity, but for those who stayed on, as the company grew they soon moved over to the left seat and as the company grew even larger they had the seniority to fly the larger airplanes and many retired from FEDEX as senior captains, or to still earn a paycheck moved to the flight engineer position when they turned 60 years old.

I remember when Federal Express was starting up, they had made offers to all the US operators of the Falcon 20 to see if they were interested in selling their airplanes, they needed about 25 airplanes to convert to freighters. In the hangar where I worked at HPN there was a Falcon 20 based there and the Chief of Maintenance told me they turned down their offer, also Federal Express was looking for pilots with Falcon 20 experience, both for captains and co-pilots to be based in Louisville KY.

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HPRamper
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RE: FX To Fly Falcon Jets Again?

Sat Sep 19, 2015 5:21 pm

Quoting JETSTAR (Reply 21):
From what I remember back when Federal Express started, all packages on the Falcon 20’s were hand loaded, they did not have any containers. Also it was the co-pilots jobs to help unload the airplane, I believe they even carried 2 co-pilots for this reason.

Because of this many co-pilots left the company, they felt it was below their dignity,

There is a somewhat famous story about this. Fred Smith was touring one of the original ramps and observed a ground crew loading a Falcon. The copilot was not present. Smith asked the ground crew where he was and they replied that he always refused to help them load. As the story goes Fred fired him on the spot.
 
BravoOne
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RE: FX To Fly Falcon Jets Again?

Sat Sep 19, 2015 6:21 pm

Maybe some here recall when FedEx was one of the launch customers for the then, Canadair 610. Eventually wound up canceling all orders prior to delivery of the first aircraft but...because of this order the original 25 (?) aircraft had a different pax door so as to accommodate the loading of packages. The airplane went on to become the Challenger 600. Some of these early 600 may still be in service although the Lycoming engines became problematic. Same engine as the BA146.
 
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tb727
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RE: FX To Fly Falcon Jets Again?

Sat Sep 19, 2015 6:28 pm

Quoting flyDTW1992 (Reply 9):
First CRJ converted freighter should be delivered to IFL in PTK (who is a Falcon 20 operator) sometime soon. They're not bulking that thing out with packages, they do almost exclusively automotive on-demand freight that generally won't come close to max payload.

Auto freight is almost always heavy, I've had 2 pallets of ball bearings and been at MZFW. We could take just under 6000 pounds of freight, enough room for 5 standard 45x48x45 pallets. If we had less than 3000 pounds it was an easy day. Filthy, rusty, heavy racks with a J-bar and skates. Used the mechanical flap extension speed handle to get the skates out because I'd rather break that than lose my arm. I wish some of the sales people would have rode along to help load! Would have at least kept them from calling all the time asking why it was taking so long to load. That CRJ is going to be a W+B nightmare.

Quoting Max Q (Reply 16):

Anyone know if FDX used to carry packages loose on their Falcons or were they loaded in some
kind of small pallet(s) ?

Reliant loaded the same way as someone just mentioned up above, just bulk generally in order of the stops. Reliant had some of the expedite stuff that left much earlier and they made a few stops on the way in and out of MEM.

IFL has a couple Falcons in the UPS system, 2 now I think up in TVF. At Peak we always went and sat in SDF at Atlantic Aviation all night waiting for some overflow but the years I went there with the Falcon I never flew. One year we actually took our spare Falcon off FedEx's ramp in MEM and went to SDF to sit! The 727 was another story, they packed us full at Peak!
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DiamondFlyer
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RE: FX To Fly Falcon Jets Again?

Sat Sep 19, 2015 6:31 pm

Quoting tb727 (Reply 24):
Auto freight is almost always heavy, I've had 2 pallets of ball bearings and been at MZFW. We could take just under 6000 pounds of freight

I'm not sure I'd agree with that. Some of it is heavy, but there is also a bunch that isn't very heavy. 400 pounds for a standard sized pallet isn't heavy, IMO.

Quoting tb727 (Reply 24):
That CRJ is going to be a W+B nightmare.

Sounds like it's going to end up like the MD-80 freighter in that regard then.

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jetstar
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RE: FX To Fly Falcon Jets Again?

Sat Sep 19, 2015 7:44 pm

Quoting BravoOne (Reply 23):

Maybe some here recall when FedEx was one of the launch customers for the then, Canadair 610. Eventually wound up canceling all orders prior to delivery of the first aircraft but...because of this order the original 25 (?) aircraft had a different pax door so as to accommodate the loading of packages. The airplane went on to become the Challenger 600.

Bill Lear drew up the original design for Fedex and it was to be called the Lear 600, once Fedex got approval to use larger airplanes they dropped the Lear 600 proposal, Canadair then picked up the design and renamed it the Challenger 600

The early Challenger 600 entry doors were like the Convair 200 series airplanes, the door swung up and the stairs extended out and down, Later on the 600’s the entry door was redesigned like that used on the Gulfstream series airplanes, an integral unit with the steps built in and it swung down when opened.

I don’t think the door design had anything to do with the Fedex proposal, those airplanes were to have a cargo door in place of the airstair door. I do not know how the emergency exits for the pilots was to be incorporated into the design, but the design never got past the paper stage when FEDEX dropped the proposal.

On the Falcon 20’s modified for Fedex, when the airstair door was removed and replaced with a cargo door, the openable side direct vision cockpit windows on both sides had to be modified into emergency exits for the pilots. This photo shows the modified emergency exit on the pilots side.


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BravoOne
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RE: FX To Fly Falcon Jets Again?

Sat Sep 19, 2015 8:27 pm

Quoting JETSTAR (Reply 26):
I don’t think the door design had anything to do with the Fedex proposal, those airplanes were to have a cargo door in place of the airstair door.

That would be a new one for me. As you may recall Canadair asked for a government loan and it had to be backed by at least 50 airframes being sold. I think there we about 81 600's built. TAG SA step up to the plate and bought those under conditions that survive even today at Bombardier. I never saw any evidence of a freight door being a part of the master plan and I was around sn 003 for a good deal of the time.

[Edited 2015-09-19 13:47:14]
 
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tb727
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RE: FX To Fly Falcon Jets Again?

Sat Sep 19, 2015 8:30 pm

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 25):
I'm not sure I'd agree with that. Some of it is heavy, but there is also a bunch that isn't very heavy. 400 pounds for a standard sized pallet isn't heavy, IMO.

No, 400 pounds is cake. Heck, I got a box roughly the same size as a pizza box once in the Falcon, that was great! That's the stuff to leave for the Lear guys, they didn't like to get their nails chipped or fingers dirty. Too busy trying to look cool.

Quoting JETSTAR (Reply 26):
On the Falcon 20’s modified for Fedex, when the airstair door was removed and replaced with a cargo door, the openable side direct vision cockpit windows on both sides had to be modified into emergency exits for the pilots. This photo shows the modified emergency exit on the pilots side.

Was the Captains DV always a slider? The ancient pax 20 I flew had a slider on the Captains side but nothing else up front because it has the pax door. Had to leave it open with the APU running otherwise you got locked out if you closed the cabin door because it pressurized. As a side detail the cargo door has the net strapped to it so it wasn't gonna open anytime soon if you were in a hurry, we had a strap cutter in one plane but it looked like it would work better for opening letters. I know some have the drop out window on the right side DV, some had sliders which was nice. One had that stupid hatch overhead but it was recently plugged and skinned over with a slider put in on the right DV.
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Max Q
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RE: FX To Fly Falcon Jets Again?

Sat Sep 19, 2015 8:50 pm

Fascinating, thanks for all the great info.


That Falcon 20 is just one of the best looking Aircraft ever made and for some reason it looks
even cooler with a cargo door, beautiful machine and I bet it was / is a delight to fly, that rule
about 'if it looks right it will fly right' has always been true with me.


As much as I enjoyed flying the B55 Baron when I flew checks I think I would
have preferred the Falcon !


Best wishes.
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


GGg
 
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tb727
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RE: FX To Fly Falcon Jets Again?

Sat Sep 19, 2015 9:04 pm

Quoting Max Q (Reply 29):
That Falcon 20 is just one of the best looking Aircraft ever made and for some reason it looks
even cooler with a cargo door, beautiful machine and I bet it was / is a delight to fly, that rule
about 'if it looks right it will fly right' has always been true with me.

It was a great flying airplane, my 2nd favorite of all time 

They don't build them like they used to! I do think if this were to happen, Dassault would build a rugged airplane for the job. Interesting though because they did not like the fact that a cargo door was cut on their planes.
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Max Q
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RE: FX To Fly Falcon Jets Again?

Sat Sep 19, 2015 9:48 pm

Quoting tb727 (Reply 30):
It was a great flying airplane, my 2nd favorite of all time

Your taste is immaculate TB, I know your favourite is the same as mine !

Quoting tb727 (Reply 30):
They don't build them like they used to! I do think if this were to happen, Dassault would build a rugged airplane for the job. Interesting though because they did not like the fact that a cargo door was cut on their planes.

Yes, I can see why from a structural standpoint, who did this mod and was there any reinforcing of the adjacent fuselage ?.


It is a BIG door relative to the size of the Aircraft
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tb727
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RE: FX To Fly Falcon Jets Again?

Sat Sep 19, 2015 11:23 pm

Quoting Max Q (Reply 31):

Your taste is immaculate TB, I know your favourite is the same as mine !

  

Quoting Max Q (Reply 31):
Yes, I can see why from a structural standpoint, who did this mod and was there any reinforcing of the adjacent fuselage ?.


It is a BIG door relative to the size of the Aircraft

If I remember it's right about 74" wide, it is a nice wide door. There were 2 door mods, the Avcon door and what I want to say is just called the FedEx door but my memory is getting fuzzy. The closing/latching system was different and while I never flew and Avcon doored plane, I heard it was a better design, that is unless it wasn't latched properly. Every door that I have heard of that opened in flight was an Avcon door. If it wasn't latched properly, it apparently had a better chance at opening.

All the alternate gear and flap mechanisms were originally back over the wing. With the cargo mod they were moved up just aft of the cockpit along with some bleed valves from the aft bulkhead. I think there are like 4 ways of putting the gear down. A freighter from scratch would be an even better machine, the noisy gas guzzler CF-700 powered ones are the bulk of what is out there but there are a bunch of TFE-731's now as well.
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jetstar
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RE: FX To Fly Falcon Jets Again?

Sun Sep 20, 2015 12:02 am

Quoting tb727 (Reply 28):
Was the Captains DV always a slider? The ancient pax 20 I flew had a slider on the Captains side but nothing else up front because it has the pax door. Had to leave it open with the APU running otherwise you got locked out if you closed the cabin door because it pressurized. As a side detail the cargo door has the net strapped to it so it wasn't gonna open anytime soon if you were in a hurry, we had a strap cutter in one plane but it looked like it would work better for opening letters. I know some have the drop out window on the right side DV, some had sliders which was nice. One had that stupid hatch overhead but it was recently plugged and skinned over with a slider put in on the right DV.

I worked on a few Falcon 20’s back in my days working as a mechanic for a FBO at HPN, and if I remember correctly the captains direct vision (DV) window did open, but was not considered an emergency exit. On the cargo conversion the co-pilots window was modified to open, I don’t know if the DV windows had to be enlarged to qualify as an emergency exit as they are not that big to begin with, maybe they qualified back then but probably would not qualify in today’s standards.

Quoting BravoOne (Reply 27):
That would be a new one for me. As you may recall Canadair asked for a government loan and it had to be backed by at least 50 airframes being sold. I think there we about 81 600's built. TAG SA step up to the plate and bought those under conditions that survive even today at Bombardier. I never saw any evidence of a freight door being a part of the master plan and I was around sn 003 for a good deal of the time.

Again if I remember correctly, the Lear 600 proposal for FEDEX never got past the preliminary design stages when FEDEX dropped interest in the project. The original plans was for a wider body airplane than the Falcon 20’s FEDEX was using with a cargo door to allow FEDEX to start using containers so they could turn the airplane around faster than hand unloading and loading as they had to do on the Falcons.

Bill Lear was having financial problems and could only pay an aeronautical design consultant to do some preliminary design work and once FEDEX dropped out, I believe they were going to invest in the project Bill Lear sold the design concept to Canadair.

JetStar
 
flightsimer
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RE: FX To Fly Falcon Jets Again?

Sun Sep 20, 2015 12:23 am

Quoting tb727 (Reply 32):

And they are still converting them.

I was based out of PTK for about five weeks, from july 14th until August 18th, and I had seen at least one one or two 20's being test flown. IFL and Royal Air both were flying them out of there and there were derelict/retired ones all over the place.
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flyDTW1992
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RE: FX To Fly Falcon Jets Again?

Sun Sep 20, 2015 12:30 am

Quoting flightsimer (Reply 34):
I was based out of PTK for about five weeks, from july 14th until August 18th, and I had seen at least one one or two 20's being test flown. IFL and Royal Air both were flying them out of there and there were derelict/retired ones all over the place.

PTK and YIP. Michigan's Falcon graveyards. DC-9s as well in YIP's case.

I think several operators will be flying the 20s as long as they possibly can. Those noisy little things just get the job done.
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HPRamper
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RE: FX To Fly Falcon Jets Again?

Sun Sep 20, 2015 12:35 am

Quoting tb727 (Reply 24):
IFL has a couple Falcons in the UPS system, 2 now I think up in TVF.

FX gets one of those as well. DigiKey is a very important contract to have their own dedicated jet.
 
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tb727
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RE: FX To Fly Falcon Jets Again?

Sun Sep 20, 2015 1:02 am

Quoting flightsimer (Reply 34):
And they are still converting them.

I was based out of PTK for about five weeks, from july 14th until August 18th, and I had seen at least one one or two 20's being test flown. IFL and Royal Air both were flying them out of there and there were derelict/retired ones all over the place.

I want to say the last TFE powered Falcon cargo door mod kit will be done soon but don't quote me on that, it is one of those two that is doing it. They beat KC to it and they are playing catch up now with mostly non-RVSM'd 700 powered gas guzzlers...

Quoting HPRamper (Reply 36):
FX gets one of those as well. DigiKey is a very important contract to have their own dedicated jet.

That's right, 2 planes, one for each and I guess they built a hangar up there for them too. Winter is terrible up there of course.
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jetblueguy22
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RE: FX To Fly Falcon Jets Again?

Sun Sep 20, 2015 1:31 am

Quoting HPRamper (Reply 36):
DigiKey is a very important contract to have their own dedicated jet.

DigiKey is massive. The amount of air they put out on a daily basis is staggering. They actually fill up about 75% of GFK's UPS flight as well. I think they fill up 4 5X feeder planes a day with air including the SDF flight.

Quoting tb727 (Reply 37):
That's right, 2 planes, one for each and I guess they built a hangar up there for them too. Winter is terrible up there of course.

I didn't realize they had built a hangar for them. Doesn't surprise me though. Love when those things come into GFK from Winnipeg to clear customs. On the ground about 15 minutes and they're like a rocket ship on take off to TVF. You can hear them clear as can be inside the UND flight ops building.
Pat
Look at sweatpants guy. This is a 90 million dollar aircraft, not a Tallahassee strip club
 
flightsimer
Posts: 1068
Joined: Mon Aug 17, 2009 5:34 am

RE: FX To Fly Falcon Jets Again?

Sun Sep 20, 2015 5:44 am

Quoting tb727 (Reply 37):

I believe I saw it taxi out from Royal. I actually caught one's first flight out of the Mod shop, at least I had heard that it was its first flight.
Commercial / Airline Pilot
 
bhmdiversion
Posts: 285
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2008 2:41 pm

RE: FX To Fly Falcon Jets Again?

Sun Sep 20, 2015 2:49 pm

Two things...

Dont quote me but Anything over 50,000 lbs. MGLW on certificate, those pilots must be on FX Master Seniority List.

Second, are these for their corporate aircraft? They have a fleet of Global Express in MEM already.
 
DiamondFlyer
Posts: 3412
Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2008 11:50 pm

RE: FX To Fly Falcon Jets Again?

Sun Sep 20, 2015 5:20 pm

Quoting bhmdiversion (Reply 40):

Two things...

Dont quote me but Anything over 50,000 lbs. MGLW on certificate, those pilots must be on FX Master Seniority List.

Its actually 60,000 lbs. I would expect that if FedEx did go with some sort of Falcon bizjet with a cargo door, it will be operated by a 3rd party, in order to keep the operating costs down. Considering how many on demand freight operators fly Falcons as it is, it should be very easy to get airlines to bid themselves down to operate new jets for FedEx

-DiamondFlyer
From my cold, dead hands
 
BravoOne
Posts: 4094
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2013 2:27 pm

RE: FX To Fly Falcon Jets Again?

Sun Sep 20, 2015 6:35 pm

Quoting JETSTAR (Reply 33):
Quoting JETSTAR (Reply 33):
Again if I remember correctly, the Lear 600 proposal for FEDEX never got past the preliminary design stages when FEDEX dropped interest in the project. The original plans was for a wider body airplane than the Falcon 20’s FEDEX was using with a cargo door to allow FEDEX to start using containers so they could turn the airplane around faster than hand unloading and loading as they had to do on the Falcons.

I'll have to defer to your memory as that was a long time ago.

How many recall that the original Falcon 20 distributor and sales organization was Pan American with none other than Charles Lindbergh heavily involved in the original promotion of this fine airplane?
 
INFINITI329
Posts: 2529
Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2012 12:53 am

RE: FX To Fly Falcon Jets Again?

Sun Sep 20, 2015 7:22 pm

I don't see the benefit of going to a brand new biz jet to replace the ATRs. Are ATRs leaving freight behind?
 
DiamondFlyer
Posts: 3412
Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2008 11:50 pm

RE: FX To Fly Falcon Jets Again?

Sun Sep 20, 2015 7:43 pm

Quoting infiniti329 (Reply 43):

I don't see the benefit of going to a brand new biz jet to replace the ATRs. Are ATRs leaving freight behind?

I don't think they'll replace an ATR with a Falcon. I don't see a bizjet being able to handle the volume even an ATR42 can do. I think its more about the routes in between an ATR and a 208, on flights more than say 300 miles.

-DiamondFlyer
From my cold, dead hands
 
jetstar
Posts: 1414
Joined: Mon May 19, 2003 2:16 am

RE: FX To Fly Falcon Jets Again?

Sun Sep 20, 2015 8:28 pm

Quoting BravoOne (Reply 42):
How many recall that the original Falcon 20 distributor and sales organization was Pan American with none other than Charles Lindbergh heavily involved in the original promotion of this fine airplane?

I do, I was working at HPN when Pan Am flew in their Falcon 20 demonstrator, painted up in Pan Am colors with the Pan Am logo on the tail.

A company in the hangar where I worked bought one of the first to go into commercial service, I believe it was serial number 5. A repair shop at HPN, Pacific Aeromotive, or Pac Aero as it was know became one of the first Falcon Jet service centers in the US.

A little bit of useless trivia, the registration number for this company’s Falcon 20 was N747, and Boeing offered the company tons of money for this registration number when they designed the 747, but the company turned them down, they had been using this number going back to a surplus B-23 Dragon bomber converted to executive use right after World War 2 and they had no intention of giving up the number to anybody, including Boeing, so that is why the prototype B –747 registration number is N7470.

JetStar
 
User avatar
tb727
Posts: 2239
Joined: Thu Jun 30, 2005 1:40 pm

RE: FX To Fly Falcon Jets Again?

Mon Sep 21, 2015 1:15 am

Quoting BravoOne (Reply 42):
How many recall that the original Falcon 20 distributor and sales organization was Pan American with none other than Charles Lindbergh heavily involved in the original promotion of this fine airplane?

Apparently there was a small plate in the cockpit of s/n 3 at Reliant that had something to the effect that "Charles Lindbergh and Juan Trippe were here" referring to an early demo flight from Dassault, supposedly they flew it. Never got to poke my head in there to find it in storage but I think it was pried off by a freightdog long ago.
Too lazy to work, too scared to steal!
 
INFINITI329
Posts: 2529
Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2012 12:53 am

RE: FX To Fly Falcon Jets Again?

Mon Sep 21, 2015 3:28 am

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 44):
I don't think they'll replace an ATR with a Falcon. I don't see a bizjet being able to handle the volume even an ATR42 can do. I think its more about the routes in between an ATR and a 208, on flights more than say 300 miles.

Do you this something to be used outside the U.S.? I can't imagine that there is small fedex station that is more than 300 miles away from a city with direct service into one of their 8 hubs. If their average daily load from that small city cannot fit one of their 208s,42s or 72s they should send it with passenger aircraft.
 
DiamondFlyer
Posts: 3412
Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2008 11:50 pm

RE: FX To Fly Falcon Jets Again?

Mon Sep 21, 2015 3:50 am

Quoting infiniti329 (Reply 47):
Do you this something to be used outside the U.S.? I can't imagine that there is small fedex station that is more than 300 miles away from a city with direct service into one of their 8 hubs. If their average daily load from that small city cannot fit one of their 208s,42s or 72s they should send it with passenger aircraft.

300 miles might be a bit high, but I imagine there are enough cities that have enough demand that rather than using a 208 or ATR42 to connect into the local 757 city, you could connect straight to the hub. The cutoff for air shipments in cities that rely on feeder service eliminates next day delivery for late afternoon shipments.

I would imagine there are enough cities that could justify going straight to MEM or IND with a Falcon 2000 versus having to connect into the mainline aircraft.

-DiamondFlyer

[Edited 2015-09-20 20:51:23]
From my cold, dead hands
 
BravoOne
Posts: 4094
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2013 2:27 pm

RE: FX To Fly Falcon Jets Again?

Mon Sep 21, 2015 9:51 am

Quoting JETSTAR (Reply 45):
Quoting JETSTAR (Reply 45):
A company in the hangar where I worked bought one of the first to go into commercial service, I believe it was serial number 5. A repair shop at HPN, Pacific Aeromotive, or Pac Aero as it was know became one of the first Falcon Jet service centers in the US.

The same pacific Aeromotive that was out in Burbank I assume? They did the Allison conversions on the Convair 340/580 as I recall.

[Edited 2015-09-21 02:51:57]

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