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allrite
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Australian Aviation Thread Part 129

Tue Sep 22, 2015 12:28 am

Australian Aviation Thread 128 is now over 200 replies long. Items discussed included:

* QF's new PER lounge and VA's new BNE lounge
* HU planning SYD-XIY, SYD-CXS
* Keeping track of QF A330 upgrades
* Rex results
* RAAF BBJ call signs
* Number of QF FAs on flights
* Solari type display boards
* VH-OQD delays
* QF Retro Roo 95th Anniversary flight SYD-LNR, 31 Oct
* JetGo announces increased BNE-Dubbo, new MEL-Dubbo
* JQ TSV-DPS, OOL-WUH
* QF 4x extra SYD-HKG flights
* Malindo Air announces KUL-PER
* QF flight renumbering
* ZK-NZE visits BNE
* QF seat selection fee changes
* What happens if 2 WA teams in AFL Grand Final?
* QF announces summer flights to DPS
* Additional 717s
* Who could VA give J seats to?
* AJ vs Borghetti...
* VA fleet mix
* VN future plans to Australia, will we see the A350 or 787, Hanoi?

So if you have some spare time waiting around an airport while Border Force strike (sounds so much more dramatic than an Immigration Strike, doesn't it) why not contribute to the discussion?
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 129

Tue Sep 22, 2015 12:40 am

Quoting bunumuring (Reply 199):

Hi Bunumuring,

Glad to hear you had outstanding service on a QF flight, makes me feel proud that I work with a great team of people.
You can contact QF many ways; Facebook and Twitter posts get forward to us every week in the form on Promotors/Neutrals and Detractors so as crew and managers we can see what our customers are saying about their experiences, or alternatively next time you have amazing service as one of us CSMs for our business cards and on the business card there is the 'your experience at Qantas' website to leave your feedback.
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 129

Tue Sep 22, 2015 12:40 am

Quoting QF2220 (Reply 193):
Quoting qf002 (Reply 192):
Quoting qfvhoqa (Reply 194):

I'm on Both VN A350 and B787 next month to Europe, can't wait, both products are different and can't wait to trial both
However I'm on a VN A330 next week SGN-MEL ....

[ Edit Post ]
When is my next holiday?
 
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 129

Tue Sep 22, 2015 12:43 am

Quoting allrite (Thread starter):
VN future plans to Australia, will we see the A350 or 787, Hanoi?

I'm hoping VN send their A350 to SYD.

Why?

Because I see it as possibly one of the cheapest ways to log an A350 and get to a region where I spend a lot of time 

It will be interesting to see the next equipment type move by VN for Australian flights nonetheless.

Quoting allrite (Thread starter):
So if you have some spare time waiting around an airport while Border Force strike (sounds so much more dramatic than an Immigration Strike, doesn't it) why not contribute to the discussion?

When exactly is this round of industrial action actually supposed to end?

Some news sources I have read have given dates varying between this coming Sunday and next Wednesday, so 7 - 10 days in total.

I'm hoping it's over by Tuesday for my own sake  
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 129

Tue Sep 22, 2015 1:12 am

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 3):
When exactly is this round of industrial action actually supposed to end?

Some news sources I have read have given dates varying between this coming Sunday and next Wednesday, so 7 - 10 days in total.

I'm hoping it's over by Tuesday for my own sake

You can see a schedule of the planned strike times here: Border Force staff at Australia's international airports are on strike: here's when to expect delays. In short, Wednesday 30 September is planned to be the final day of strike action.

I'm not sure that the Border Force staff are winning any support from the public with this kind of action. When it only affects the public and not the employer, what's the point? The only losers are pax, airlines and the airside retail businesses. Surely action like non-collection of import duties or fines would make the government pay attention.
 
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 129

Tue Sep 22, 2015 1:15 am

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 3):
Some news sources I have read have given dates varying between this coming Sunday and next Wednesday, so 7 - 10 days in total.

Ten days at peak times. I really don't agree with doing this over school holidays when things are at their busiest. However, being on the receiving end of one of these Enterprise Agreements that the government is trying to hand down I can certainly sympathise with the Border Force workers. Much of it is an ideologically driven attempt to remove conditions rather than to actually save any money.
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 129

Tue Sep 22, 2015 1:15 am

Thanks for all the feedback about giving compliments to the QF crew on my flight last week. I've done so and hope it gets to the right people because I was truly impressed.

As for the Border Force strike, there's lots of media debate about it so who knows what's going on. I too hope for my own reasons that it will be over mid next week...

I asked a few threads ago about Qantas and Virgin Australia showing any interest in the new retrofitted scimitar winglets. No one seemed to know anything. Have there been any recent developments on this front? VA are of course committed to the MAXin the near-term but QF look like keeping on the their -800s forever. QF didn't retrofit the 767s with winglets so maybe they won't adopt the new wingtip treatment for their -800s...

Cheers,
Bunumuring.
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 129

Tue Sep 22, 2015 1:31 am

Quoting qfvhoqa (Reply 4):
You can see a schedule of the planned strike times here: Border Force staff at Australia's international airports are on strike: here's when to expect delays. In short, Wednesday 30 September is planned to be the final day of strike action.

Thanks for that.


""Wednesday 30 September 2015
New South Wales
Sydney International Airport – 7 am to 9 am""


No!!!!!!!!!!
I'm due to arrive @ SYD at 7am from Asia that day - just my luck LOL.

Quoting allrite (Reply 5):
Ten days at peak times. I really don't agree with doing this over school holidays when things are at their busiest. However, being on the receiving end of one of these Enterprise Agreements that the government is trying to hand down I can certainly sympathise with the Border Force workers. Much of it is an ideologically driven attempt to remove conditions rather than to actually save any money.
Quoting qfvhoqa (Reply 4):
I'm not sure that the Border Force staff are winning any support from the public with this kind of action. When it only affects the public and not the employer, what's the point? The only losers are pax, airlines and the airside retail businesses. Surely action like non-collection of import duties or fines would make the government pay attention.

I also have mixed feelings about this particular industrial action and industrial action in general.

In some instances I'm against it and feel: "if you don't like it, find another job".

However... In this instance... If reports are true that some staff might lose 8K a year or so then I support some kind of action - but what?

Like some of you have suggested, I feel for these staff and they need to do something in this instance, but is striking for so long during peak periods the right way to go about it?

I hope some positive outcome is achieved for the sake of everyone affected by this including the staff and the traveling public who depend on their services.
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 129

Tue Sep 22, 2015 3:27 am

Quoting allrite (Reply 5):
However, being on the receiving end of one of these Enterprise Agreements that the government is trying to hand down I can certainly sympathise with the Border Force workers.
Quoting 777Jet (Reply 7):
I feel for these staff and they need to do something in this instance,

From what I have heard from Boarder Force employees is it was actually their own union that signed off and agreed to the lower pay conditions (wasn't forced by the government). Someone in their union F#$& up big time!

They should do something, but I'm not sure if aggravating the public and airlines through delays is going to find any sympathy or any action...especially when the public already don't have favourable views of the often outright rude boarder force staff as it is.

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 7):
I hope some positive outcome is achieved for the sake of everyone affected by this including the staff and the traveling public who depend on their services.

...we can only hope!
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 129

Tue Sep 22, 2015 3:50 am

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 7):

Like some of you have suggested, I feel for these staff and they need to do something in this instance, but is striking for so long during peak periods the right way to go about it?

I heard on the news yesterday that passengers are being asked to arrive at the airport earlier because of the delays but the problem is that the airline check in desks are not opening up any earlier to process the passengers and their luggage. Is that something the airlines can do something about?

The inflexibility of check in can be rather annoying. A few months ago we flew JQ SYD-HBA and due to a systems failure all flights were delayed. Jetstar notified us about that in the morning, all fine. However, we still had to check in 40 minutes before the original time!
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 129

Tue Sep 22, 2015 4:06 am

Quoting allrite (Reply 5):
days at peak times. I really don't agree with doing this over school holidays when things are at their busiest.

I don't agree with this action. Unions have used school holidays and early morning times to cause maximum inconvenience which leads to maximum exposure.

QF has concerns over TT operating VA Bali flights

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/busi...erair/story-e6frg8zx-1227533928892

Qantas has called on the International Air Services Commission to ensure Virgin Australia meets ownership and control criteria in its push to use low-cost subsidiary Tigerair Australia on flights to Bali.

The Qantas submission says Virgin's application fails to provide information on the entity that will use the capacity other than to say it is a wholly owned subsidiary of Virgin Australia International

Qantas argues the commission needs to be sure the unnamed subsidiary is an Australian carrier and can obtain the necessary approvals and licences to operate.


VA response

http://australianaviation.com.au/201...concerns-on-tigerair-bali-flights/

Additional to JQ operating the 788 on Mondays on MEL-AKL-SYD (JQ195/196) between 14 Dec 15 and 25 Jan 16 JQ will now also operate the 788 on Tuesdays on SYD-AKL-MEL (JQ197/198) between 15 Dec 15 and 5 Jan 16

http://airlineroute.net/2015/09/21/jq-akl-dec15update2/
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 129

Tue Sep 22, 2015 4:27 am

In the last thread the QF seasonal flights were mentioned. Over the past few days I have been through the past threads to compile a list of what we will see over the coming months in terms of new services for all carries. If I have missed anything please add to the list (Note: that it includes all upgrades/cancellations for NW 15/16, TT's DPS flights are not listed as they start in NS 16). Its going to be an exciting summer seeing new airlines and increase in services in Australia.

Air China
SYD-PEK will increase from daily to 11 weekly from 15 Nov 15, initially operated by A330-200 for 4 weeks then will be operated by A330-300
MEL-PEK increase from 4 weekly to daily from 25 Oct 15, operated by A330-200

Air New Zealand
BNE-AKL increases from 14 weekly to 16 weekly between 11 Dec 15 and 26 Mar 16, operated by A320-200
PER-AKL increases from 7 weekly to 10 weekly between 11 Dec 15 and 1 May 16, additional services operated by 767-300
MCY-AKL 3 weekly from 13 Dec 15 to 28 Feb 16, operated by A320-200
PER-CHC 2 weekly between 11 Dec 15 and 1 May 16, operated by 767-300

American Airlines
daily SYD-LAX , effective 17 Dec 15, first arrival into SYD 19 Dec 15, operated by 777-300/ER

ANA
SYD-HND, daily from 12 Dec 15 (Tokyo departure 11 Dec 15), operated by 787-9

Batik Air
PER-DPS daily early 2016, operated by 737-900/ER, not confirmed yet

Cathay Pacific
CX100/101 rotation will be upgraded from A330-300 to 777-300/ER

China Airlines
TPE-BNE-AKL upgraded to 747-400 between 3 Dec 15 and 29 Feb 16
TPE-MEL-CHC, 3 weekly from 25 Oct 15, operated by A330-300
SYD-AKL seasonal operated between 3 Nov 15 and 26 Mar 16, operated by A330-300

China Eastern Airlines
BNE-PVG to commence in Jan 16 (nothing confirmed yet)

China Southern Airlines
MEL-CAN will increase from 2 daily to 18 weekly between 5 Dec 15 – 29 Feb 16
BNE-CAN will increase from 5 weekly to daily from 25 Oct 15, operated by A330-200
SYD-CAN will increase from 2 daily to 3 daily from 10 Dec 15, service to operate year round
SYD-CAN CZ325-326 will be upgraded for seasonal A380-800 from 25 Oct 15

Emirates
EK404-405 upgraded from 777-300/ER to A380-800 from 1 Mar 16

Eva Air
BNE-TPE From 2 weekly to 3 weekly between 9 Dec 15 and 28 Jan 16, operated by A330-200

Hong Kong Airines
OOL-CNS-HKG, operated between Jan 16 and Mar 16, operated by A330-300

Indonesia AirAsia X
SYD-DPS 5 weekly, effective 17 Oct 15, operated by A330-300

Jetstar
MEL-AKL-SYD will see 787-8 on Mondays between 14 Dec 15 and 26 Jan 16 (JQ195/196)
SYD-AKL-MEL will see 787-8 on Tuesdays between 15 Dec 15 and 5 Jan 15 (JQ197/198)
AVV-OOL, daily from 25 Oct 15, operated by A320-200
OOL-WUH 2 weekly from 29 Sep 15, operated by 788

Korean Air
Between 25 Oct 15 and 30 Nov 15 the 777-300/ER replaces planned A330-300
Between 1 Dec 15 and 25 Mar 16 the A380-800 replaced planned 747-400

Malaysia Airlines
Additional flights operated in Dec 15
MH147 KUL2025 – 710+1MEL 333 4 Dec 15/18 Dec 15/19 Dec 15
MH146 MEL855 – 1355KUL 333 5 Dec 15/19 Dec 15/20 Dec 15
MH143 KUL1925 – 640+1SYD 333 4 Dec 15/7 Dec 15/8 Dec 15/17 Dec 15/18 Dec 15
MH142 SYD850 – 1415KUL 333 5 Dec 15/8 Dec 15/9 Dec 15/18 Dec 15/19 Dec 15

Malindo Air
PER-KUL daily, effective 11 Nov 15, operated by 737-900/ER (subject to approval)

Philippine Airlines
SYD-MNL from 5 weekly to daily, effective 25 Oct 15, operated by A340-300
MNL-CNS-AKL 4 weekly, effective 1 Dec 15, operated by A320-200

Qantas
SYD-HKG increases from daily to 11 weekly, effective 26 Oct 15, additional flights operated by A330-300
QF127/128 operated by A388 from 10th Dec 2015 to 20th Jan 2016 on day x23, daily from 21st Jan 2016 to 15 Feb 2016
SYD-LAX reduced 2 daily to 12 weekly, effective 18 Dec 15, further reduced to 10 weekly effective 23 Jan 16, QF17/18 operates on day 267 from 23 Jan 16
PER-SIN will increase from 5 weekly to daily between 30 Nov 15 and 22 Feb 16, remains 737-800
BNE-CHC, seasonal 4 weekly between 3 Dec 15 and 22 Feb 16
BNE-WLG, seasonal 3 weekly between 3 Dec 15 and 22 Feb 16
MEL-OOL, daily from 25 Oct 15, operated by 737-800
SYD-MCY daily from 21 Dec 15, operated by 717-200
MEL-LAX reduced from 10 weekly to 9 weekly from 27 Jan 16
SYD-SFO initially 5 days a week from 18 Dec 15 increasing to 6 weekly from 1 Feb 16, operated by 747-400
SYD-MNL increases from 4 to 5 weekly from Dec 15 to Mar 16, operated by A330-200
SYD-DPS 4 weekly between 4 Dec 15 and 29 Jan 16, operated by 737-800
HBA-MEL/SYD will see an increase from 35 weekly services to 46 weekly services from 8 Mar 16, operated by 717-200
SYD-CGK increased from 4 to 5 weekly between 7 Dec 15 and 10 Jan 16, operated by A330-200
MEL-WLG, additional services, QF 173/174 on 19,22 and 23 Dec 15, operated by 737-800
BNE-AKL additional services, QF119/120 19 Dec 15 (A330-200) and 2 Jan 15 (737-800)
MEL-AKL, QF157/158 extra service on 19 Dec 15, operated by 737-800
SYD-ZQN, QF121/122 extra services on 5 and 7 Jan 16, operated by 737-800
SYD-WLG, QF159/160 extra services on 19 and 23 Dec 15, operated by 737-800
SYD-CHC, QF137/136 extra service on 17 Jan 15, operated by 737-800
PER-MEL QF773/802 cancelled, QF777/481/762/772/476/768 all retimed, effective 25 Oct 15
PER-SYD, QF569/576, aircraft change from A330-200 to 737-800 from 25 Oct 15
SYD-BNE, flights operated by A330-200, QF512(weekdays), QF500/520(Thu, Fri), QF536 (Thu) from 25 Oct 15
BNE-SIN, flights operated by A330-200, QF503(weekdays), QF519(Thu, Fri), QF509/549(Thu), QF507(Fri) from 25 Oct 15
SYD-JNB reduced from daily to 6 weekly from 3 Feb 16
SYD-SCL increased from 4 weekly to 5 weekly between 8 Nov 15 and 24 Jan 16, operated by 747-400
SYD-DFW increased from 6 weekly to daily between 8 Dec 15 and 19 Jan 15, operated by A380-800
PER-AKL weekly service from 30 Oct 15 to 6 Dec 15, 2 weekly between 11 Dec 15 and 26 Mar 16, operated by A330-200
SYD-YVR 3 weekly between 12 Dec 15 and 25 Jan 16, operated by 747-400

Scoot
MEL-SIN 5 weekly commences 1 Nov 15, operated by 787-8
MEL-SIN increases from 5 weekly to daily between 15 Dec 15 and 6 Jan 16, extra services operated by 787-9

Silk Air
Effective 25 Oct 15
CNS-DRW-SIN triangle will be reduce from 3 weekly to 2 weekly (Mon, Thu)
CNS-SIN 1 weekly (Sat)
DRW-SIN increase 2 weekly to 3 weekly (Wed, Fri, Sat)

Singapore Airlines
BNE-SIN increases from 21 to 24 weekly between 1 Dec 15 and 10 Feb 16, operated by A330-300
MEL-SIN increases from 28 to 31 weekly between 12 Dec 15 and 21 Dec 15 plus 2 Jan 16 and 17 Jan 16, operated by A330-300

Thai Airways
BNE-BKK will see the route operated by the 787-8 replacing the 777-200/ER from 25 Oct 15

Tiger Airways
MEL-CFS 3 weekly from 9 Dec 15, operated by A320-200

Vietnam Airlines
SYD-SGN upgraded from A330-200 to 777-200/ER from 1 Dec 15 (SGN departure 30 Nov 15)

Virgin Australia
SYD-CHC increases from 3 weekly to 5 weekly from 25 Oct 15
MEL-CHC increases from daily to 8 weekly from 8 Nov 15
PER-HKT cancelled from 1 Feb 16
BNE-LST Saturday service between 26 Dec 15 and 30 Jan 16
SYD-AUH will operate only between 17 Dec 15 and 1 Feb 16 due to cabin refurbs

Xiamen Airlines
SYD-FOC commences 3 weekly from 30 Nov 15 (Fuzhou departure 29 Nov 15), operated by 787-8
SYD-XMN commences 2 weekly from 6 Nov 15 (Xiamen departure 5 Dec 15), operated by 787-8
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 129

Tue Sep 22, 2015 6:01 am

Awesome list, very comprehensive.

With the new SYD flights on the horizon how are XT doing load wise on their DPS-MEL service seeing it didn't exactly get off to a good start?
 
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 129

Tue Sep 22, 2015 6:36 am

Quoting qf789 (Reply 10):
QF has concerns over TT operating VA Bali flights
Quoting qf789 (Reply 10):
VA response

That is utterly fascinating reading especially given the highly defensive answer by Virgin! In fact, the IASC submissions which are only a couple of pages each are both interesting and can be read here:

http://iasc.gov.au/applications/files/20150917-Qantas-submission.pdf

http://iasc.gov.au/applications/file...lia-Letter-to-IASC-22-Sep-2015.pdf

In a nutshell Qantas, a majority Australian owned carrier, is asking how Virgin, a majority foreign owned carrier, is going to exercise the route authorities the IASC might grant them in accordance with Air Navigation Act Requirements that state that a carrier must be majority Australian owned in order to access Australian Air Rights. Especially since Tiger Australia is supposedly owned by Virgin Australia and not the supposedly majority Australian owned entity which Virgin uses to operate its international flights. Very interesting and the Virgin response is effectively "we don't have to say and the IASC lacks the authority to ask". I wonder if QF is doing this for the annoyance factor of it or whether they are gong to genuinely make an issue out of it.
 
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 129

Tue Sep 22, 2015 6:39 am

Quoting Sydscott (Reply 13):

Get the popcorn!
 
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 129

Tue Sep 22, 2015 7:06 am

Quoting Sydscott (Reply 13):
That is utterly fascinating reading

What is even more fascinating is that VA alleges that QF actually didn't lodge its application until 3 days after the advertised closing date for responses. This opens up another can of worms with the potential that any judgment by the IASC may be referred to the Federal Court due to inadmissability. The lawyers win again!!!!

On a separate note, people were asking in the last thread about flight planning if both Perth based teams get into next weekend's AFL Grand Final. Such a scenario could see up to 30,000 West Australians coming to Melbourne. I was at a conference today where the CEO of AFL Gillon McLachlan presented and he discussed this possibility. He spoke with JB (VA are a principal AFL sponsor) yesterday and he has already committed to 6000 extra seats on the route for next weekend if necessary and has already devised where this capacity shall come from. In addition, McLachlan believes QF will match this capacity bump.
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 129

Tue Sep 22, 2015 8:08 am

Quoting tullamarine (Reply 15):
What is even more fascinating is that VA alleges that QF actually didn't lodge its application until 3 days after the advertised closing date for responses. This opens up another can of worms with the potential that any judgment by the IASC may be referred to the Federal Court due to inadmissability. The lawyers win again!!!!

Exactly! It would be an utterly fascinating Court case to see Virgin prove in Open Court how it manages to operate its International Arm when it is majority foreign owned. I'm not actually sure VA would want it to go to Court lest a Court took the view that their arrangements actually didn't comply with the Air Navigation Act.
 
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 129

Tue Sep 22, 2015 8:26 am

Quoting qf789 (Reply 11):
Silk Air
Effective 25 Oct 15
CNS-DRW-SIN triangle will be reduce from 3 weekly to 2 weekly (Mon, Thu)
CNS-SIN 1 weekly (Sat)
DRW-SIN increase 2 weekly to 3 weekly (Wed, Fri, Sat)

Evidently I missed this announcement. Disappointing to see, had hoped this route would go well for them. While it is arguably a somewhat different market, JQ also launched CNS-DPS recently so this will take some traffic going to Asian holiday destinations. Would have hoped Europe-bound passengers (and European-origin) would be enough to fill a 737 3x a week though, not to mention all the Asian bound/origin traffic.
 
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 129

Tue Sep 22, 2015 9:28 am

Quoting tullamarine (Reply 15):
This opens up another can of worms with the potential that any judgment by the IASC may be referred to the Federal Court due to inadmissability.
Quoting Sydscott (Reply 16):
Exactly! It would be an utterly fascinating Court case to see Virgin prove in Open Court how it manages to operate its International Arm when it is majority foreign owned. I'm not actually sure VA would want it to go to Court lest a Court took the view that their arrangements actually didn't comply with the Air Navigation Act.

When you think about it, there isn't really any evidence in the Qantas submission. All it really says is how Qantas does it (which is irrelevant to Virgin's application), and a request to make sure that the rules are followed (in the form of asking how Virgin is planning on doing it).
I reckon Sydscott is right, "it's damaging to our case" isn't really a valid reason to exclude something.
 
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 129

Tue Sep 22, 2015 10:54 am

Quoting qf789 (Reply 10):
Qantas has called on the International Air Services Commission to ensure Virgin Australia meets ownership and control criteria in its push to use low-cost subsidiary Tigerair Australia on flights to Bali.

The Qantas submission says Virgin's application fails to provide information on the entity that will use the capacity other than to say it is a wholly owned subsidiary of Virgin Australia International

Qantas argues the commission needs to be sure the unnamed subsidiary is an Australian carrier and can obtain the necessary approvals and licences to operate.
Quoting Sydscott (Reply 13):
In a nutshell Qantas, a majority Australian owned carrier, is asking how Virgin, a majority foreign owned carrier, is going to exercise the route authorities the IASC might grant them in accordance with Air Navigation Act Requirements that state that a carrier must be majority Australian owned in order to access Australian Air Rights. Especially since Tiger Australia is supposedly owned by Virgin Australia and not the supposedly majority Australian owned entity which Virgin uses to operate its international flights. Very interesting and the Virgin response is effectively "we don't have to say and the IASC lacks the authority to ask". I wonder if QF is doing this for the annoyance factor of it or whether they are gong to genuinely make an issue out of it.

Fascinating. Would be interested to know what some other members here think about it.  
Quoting tullamarine (Reply 15):
The lawyers win again!!!!

Sadly, they always do.
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 129

Tue Sep 22, 2015 12:36 pm

Quoting Sydscott (Reply 13):
I wonder if QF is doing this for the annoyance factor of it or whether they are gong to genuinely make an issue out of it.

Both really. Both VA/QF have made submissions to the ACCC in the past in relation to proposed/extensions of JV/alliances entered into by VA and QF respectively, so this is more tit for tat in the battle between AJ and JB.

But the bigger picture for QF is that should the TT experiment prove successful on international, then they may become a genuine threat to JQ on it's other international routes. So a letter is likely to at least prompt some further digging by IASC. But in the event that VA were found to be non-compliant, I'm sure they would find another way to restructure/engineer the company structure so that "TT international" would be majority Australian owned just like they did with their international arm.
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Razza74
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 129

Tue Sep 22, 2015 2:23 pm

Market forces are a funny thing . . .
It is great to see QF expanding international services . . . .out of SYD, MEL and BNE using A332 that once flew in great numbers to PER
PER as we once again rapidly descend from an over grown mining camp to a sleepy backwater
PER where F100's ply the intrastate routes and 73H's take you further afield
PER where it is cheaper to fly to DPS than BME
One could continue to grumble, whinge and moan, but market force are what they are and PER is not a bad place to live

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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 129

Tue Sep 22, 2015 7:55 pm

I was also fascinsted by the Virgin response to IASC. VA's response was to suggest that IASC lacked jurisdiction to investigate such questions, which comes over as overly defensive. Presuming they have nothing to hide then just say as much, rather than try and dance around the issue by attacking the decision making body. TT-i probably does comply with Australian ownership requirements, and if it doesn't then it could be restructured as a separate business like VAi, so the heavy handed response is puzzling.

As an aside, which is the competent body for deciding questions of foreign ownership and compliance with the Air Navigation Act? I would have assumed it was Infrastructure, but VA seems to suggest that it isn't.
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 129

Tue Sep 22, 2015 8:03 pm

Quoting Sydscott (Reply 13):
In a nutshell Qantas, a majority Australian owned carrier, is asking how Virgin, a majority foreign owned carrier, is going to exercise the route authorities the IASC might grant them in accordance with Air Navigation Act Requirements that state that a carrier must be majority Australian owned in order to access Australian Air Rights. Especially since Tiger Australia is supposedly owned by Virgin Australia and not the supposedly majority Australian owned entity which Virgin uses to operate its international flights. Very interesting and the Virgin response is effectively "we don't have to say and the IASC lacks the authority to ask". I wonder if QF is doing this for the annoyance factor of it or whether they are gong to genuinely make an issue out of it.

I'd suggest the change in the liberal leadership has something to do with it!

If we go back a couple of years to the Virgin Australia International Holding company, I was a little surprised that VA were able/ALLOWED to "navigate" around the foreign ownership requirements of the Air Navigation Act without some type of objection from the government.

As such, I have a suspicion the VAIH entity was negotiated with the previous Labour government (and maybe opposition), with (and I am going from memory) the objective outcome being ensuring strong competition between the two incumbent airlines.

As we all know this resulted in a situation where Virgin Australia in essence had access to cheap government secured loans and QANTAS (and rightly so) having a dummy spit requesting they should have the same (government backed loans).

I'd suggest, the than new Liberal government negotiated a truce between VA and QANTAS instead of either enforcing or amending the ANA so that the foreign ownership requirements of the ANA were being adhered to by the airlines.

If we now come back to the present, we have a situation where QANTAS has turned into one very profitable airline and VA has gone from an airline with almost unlimited growth potential in the Australian market to one (and I still need to qualify this) where it will find it hard to maintain its current market share.

So, for both airlines, the last five years has been very much a seesaw ride, with a contributor to this being the constant interference (or meddling) of government in airline affairs.

I think it is fair to say, from a business perspective Malcolm Turnbull will be very much on the right side of politics. As such, where the previous governments of Labour and Tony Abbot were willing to negotiate with the airlines behind closed doors to achieve the objectives they desired, Malcolm Turnbull will probably be more policy and "good governance" based. As such, I suspect the new government will be more inclined to enforce/amend the requirements of legislation (i.e. the foreign ownership requirements of the ANA) for the purpose of ensuring airlines are in compliance with it.

So, this latest little spit fight could be 1) QANTAS testing the waters to see where the new government actually stands and/or 2) QANTAS submitting an application on the basis that their communications with the new government suggests they will be taking a different approach to government / airline relations to those in the past.

When we consider investor confidence at present (very low), events in the past that have undermined this confidence (government interference in QANTAS. mining applications, etc) we could be well seeing a new government paradigm starting to emerge here.

Quoting tullamarine (Reply 15):
What is even more fascinating is that VA alleges that QF actually didn't lodge its application until 3 days after the advertised closing date for responses. This opens up another can of worms with the potential that any judgment by the IASC may be referred to the Federal Court due to inadmissability. The lawyers win again!!!!

The late application could be associated with QANTAS not willing to strain relations with the than Abbot government and the previous negotiated truce I have suggested. The business/government environment changed very quickly and as such we had a late application.

This is going to be embarrassing and bad PR for Virgin Australia if their application is rejected.

[Edited 2015-09-22 13:20:04]
 
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 129

Tue Sep 22, 2015 10:39 pm

Quoting LandSweetLand (Reply 18):
When you think about it, there isn't really any evidence in the Qantas submission. All it really says is how Qantas does it (which is irrelevant to Virgin's application), and a request to make sure that the rules are followed (in the form of asking how Virgin is planning on doing it).
I reckon Sydscott is right, "it's damaging to our case" isn't really a valid reason to exclude something.

At the moment there is no public evidence one way or the other in relation to VA's re-structure. The Department has signed off on it meeting the requirements of the Air Navigation Act but will a Court? An interesting, and risky, scenario for VA and one which they would no doubt like to avoid if at all possible.

Quoting SYDSpotter (Reply 20):
But in the event that VA were found to be non-compliant, I'm sure they would find another way to restructure/engineer the company structure so that "TT international" would be majority Australian owned just like they did with their international arm.

And this is where it gets tricky. Because the simple question to answer is "who are the owners of Virgins International flying entity?" At the moment there is no public information as to how this ownership stays below the required threshold and exactly who the owners are. The Virgin documents lodged publicly when they did the re-structure are unclear as to how this works so I, for one, would be fascinated to see them spell it out.

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 22):
As an aside, which is the competent body for deciding questions of foreign ownership and compliance with the Air Navigation Act? I would have assumed it was Infrastructure, but VA seems to suggest that it isn't.

As Virgin says in its response to QF, the authority to determine that is the responsible Federal Department. If someone doesn't like that decision they can then take that Federal Department through the Federal Court process to have the decision reviewed.

Quoting travelhound (Reply 23):
The late application could be associated with QANTAS not willing to strain relations with the than Abbot government and the previous negotiated truce I have suggested. The business/government environment changed very quickly and as such we had a late application.

The response by QF also means that if the IASC decides to reject it on the one hand and go ahead with approving the VA application, or accept on the other and ask for further information, it potentially lengthens the process by either giving QF a way to force review of the IASC decision or, on the other hand, gives VA ammunition to fight any adverse consequences. Interesting nonetheless.
 
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 129

Tue Sep 22, 2015 10:46 pm

Quoting Sydscott (Reply 24):
At the moment there is no public evidence one way or the other in relation to VA's re-structure. The Department has signed off on it meeting the requirements of the Air Navigation Act but will a Court? An interesting, and risky, scenario for VA and one which they would no doubt like to avoid if at all possible.

I'm fascinated. The structure - as I understand it - may meet the letter of the law, but it seems (to me) to flout the intention of the law.

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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 129

Wed Sep 23, 2015 3:43 am

JB has had a 2.3% pay rise taking his salary to 2.84 million a year, not that he should be getting a rise considering he still hasn't made a profit yet

http://www.smh.com.au/business/aviat...in-pay-stakes-20150923-gjsu49.html
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 129

Wed Sep 23, 2015 8:45 am

How many special colour schemes does qantas have in service at the moment? I can think of 3 the breast cancer q400 , the aboriginal themed 737 and the retro jet. Have they considered reviving a wunala scheme forthe744er or thea380? I remember the blue jalanji dreaming743 it was gorgeous. Also other thanfont revisions the current scheme has been around since about 1986 a new scheme would be refreshing especially as most of the aussie scene is now red and white. I used to love the impulse 717 flying cockatoos.

Cheers
 
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 129

Wed Sep 23, 2015 8:48 am

Quoting jetsetter1969 (Reply 27):
How many special colour schemes does qantas have in service at the moment? I can think of 3 the breast cancer q400 , the aboriginal themed 737 and the retro jet.

At the moment, they also have the Go Wallabies A380 (VH-OQH) and the Movember 737 (VH-VZO).

-CXfirst
 
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 129

Wed Sep 23, 2015 9:30 am

Quoting Sydscott (Reply 24):
And this is where it gets tricky. Because the simple question to answer is "who are the owners of Virgins International flying entity?" At the moment there is no public information as to how this ownership stays below the required threshold and exactly who the owners are. The Virgin documents lodged publicly when they did the re-structure are unclear as to how this works so I, for one, would be fascinated to see them spell it out.

This media release provides a little bit of clarity, although it may be tricky to explain:

http://www.virginaustralia.com/au/en...12/VIRGIN-AUSTRALIA-NEW-STRUCTURE/

So prior to SQ/EY/NZ (and also other non Australian shareholders) having >50% of the company in 2012, VA gave an "in-specie" dividend to their shareholders on the VA share register at this date (note at this date VA was still majority Australian owned). This "in-specie" dividend representing a beneficial interest in VAIH (the VA international arm). Unlike the VA shares traded on the ASX (ASX ticker :VAH), the beneficial ownership in VAIH cannot be traded. So even if VAH shareholders sold their existing VAH shares, they would still maintain their beneficial ownership in VAIH (given to them via the in-specie dividend). So when SQ/NZ/EY subsequently increased their stake to over 50%, the ownership of VAIH still remained majority Australian owned (as the ownership in VAIH remains static). Hopefully that makes sense.

The VAIH shares are basically worth nothing because VA put into place various arrangements whereby VAIH owes a shedload of money to the Australian arm of VA and makes no profit (see the link above for further detail).
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TruemanQLD
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 129

Wed Sep 23, 2015 9:37 am

Quoting jetsetter1969 (Reply 27):

How many special colour schemes does qantas have in service at the moment? I can think of 3 the breast cancer q400 , the aboriginal themed 737 and the retro jet. Have they considered reviving a wunala scheme forthe744er or thea380? I remember the blue jalanji dreaming743 it was gorgeous. Also other thanfont revisions the current scheme has been around since about 1986 a new scheme would be refreshing especially as most of the aussie scene is now red and white. I used to love the impulse 717 flying cockatoos.

+ 3 - Western Plains Zoo Dash 8, "Recognise" Dash 8 & Tasmania 717 (I think it's still going around...)

I think there are still more...
 
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 129

Wed Sep 23, 2015 9:47 am

Quoting jetsetter1969 (Reply 27):
How many special colour schemes does qantas have in service at the moment? I can think of 3 the breast cancer q400 , the aboriginal themed 737 and the retro jet. Have they considered reviving a wunala scheme forthe744er or thea380? I remember the blue jalanji dreaming743 it was gorgeous. Also other thanfont revisions the current scheme has been around since about 1986 a new scheme would be refreshing especially as most of the aussie scene is now red and white. I used to love the impulse 717 flying cockatoos
Quoting CXfirst (Reply 28):
At the moment, they also have the Go Wallabies A380 (VH-OQH) and the Movember 737 (VH-VZO).
Quoting TruemanQLD (Reply 30):
+ 3 - Western Plains Zoo Dash 8, "Recognise" Dash 8 & Tasmania 717 (I think it's still going around...)

There's also the 744 (VH-OEF) and A332 (VH-EBV) in the oneworld livery
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 129

Wed Sep 23, 2015 9:50 am

VH-EBF has entered service today, is also in new configuration

http://www.theqantassource.com/qanta...-200-vh-ebf-enters-qantas-service/
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Flyingsottsman
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 129

Wed Sep 23, 2015 10:49 am

QF789 great list and a very interesting read, seems to me QF must the 2 northern capitals are more important than MEL, granted there are extra flights across the Tasman, but LAX is reduced, nothing to SIN on QF metal no extra services to Hong Kong, seems like even BNE is over taking MEL for international services out of Australia.
 
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 129

Wed Sep 23, 2015 10:53 am

Quoting Sydscott (Reply 24):

I'm well aware that it is a Federal Department, I'm questioning which one. Is it the Department of Infrastructure?
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 129

Wed Sep 23, 2015 11:50 am

I caught the tail end of Gruen on ABC tonight where they were discussion the use of Hawaiian born BMX Bandit actress Nicole Kidman in the Etihad ad and how few "Australian" actresses there were to choose from. I guess they had to pick the polarising Kidman. I guess the first choice of an iconic and internationally recognised Australian female movie star was already taken by another airline... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1ZDQDI3rK0.
I like artificial banana essence!
 
IndianicWorld
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 129

Wed Sep 23, 2015 12:00 pm

Flyingsottsman, EK will be moving up to an EK A380 next year on MEL-SIN-DXB. That's more than enough to cope with extra capacity on that route for the EK/QF partnership. MEL is certainly not being neglected.

Add on the new Scoot 5 x weekly flight starting in Nov, with seasonal increases to daily, and SQ frequency/capacity upgrades on the SIN route too, a daily QF and 5 x weekly JQ on the route is more than enough.

JQ has been adding frequencies across its MEL international network, which has seen significant growth in the last few years. QF itself will likely wait until it has the 789 to start new MEL flights, which will likely include DFW, with the potential for PVG and other routes it sees a strategic need to be on.

So taking everything into account, MEL is still a significantly larger international market than BNE in the QF/JQ group.
 
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 129

Wed Sep 23, 2015 12:02 pm

Quoting Flyingsottsman (Reply 33):
QF789 great list and a very interesting read, seems to me QF must the 2 northern capitals are more important than MEL, granted there are extra flights across the Tasman, but LAX is reduced, nothing to SIN on QF metal no extra services to Hong Kong, seems like even BNE is over taking MEL for international services out of Australia.

I guess one thing BNE has going for it moreso than MEL is that due to BNE's more northerly location it is a more suitable/viable location for connecting pax for QF rather than being on the southern end of the country like MEL.
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 129

Wed Sep 23, 2015 12:10 pm

^^ BNE really has the advantage on North America, Pacific Islands and North Asia, but the rest of the globe is actually closer to MEL.

Overall, QF is mostly focused on SYD as its main hub and other markets get service where there is a strategic need. Most of their other routes are mainly primarily based around O&D considerations.
 
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 129

Wed Sep 23, 2015 12:12 pm

Quoting Flyingsottsman (Reply 33):
QF789 great list and a very interesting read, seems to me QF must the 2 northern capitals are more important than MEL, granted there are extra flights across the Tasman, but LAX is reduced, nothing to SIN on QF metal no extra services to Hong Kong, seems like even BNE is over taking MEL for international services out of Australia.

I think you're reading too much into it. MEL will (for the foreseeable future) have more QF International services/capacity than BNE. The fact that QF have decided to put on additional services into BNE (rather than MEL) is more indicative that the BNE market is less saturated vs MEL.
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 129

Wed Sep 23, 2015 12:27 pm

Quoting TruemanQLD (Reply 30):
+ 3 - Western Plains Zoo Dash 8, "Recognise" Dash 8 & Tasmania 717 (I think it's still going around...)

I think there are still more...

VH-QOI – Q400 with Tamworth Country Music Festival livery
Qantas - The Spirit of Australia.
 
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 129

Wed Sep 23, 2015 12:34 pm

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 34):
I'm well aware that it is a Federal Department, I'm questioning which one. Is it the Department of Infrastructure?

Testy! Yes as far as I'm aware it's the department you reference.

Quoting SYDSpotter (Reply 29):
So prior to SQ/EY/NZ (and also other non Australian shareholders) having >50% of the company in 2012, VA gave an "in-specie" dividend to their shareholders on the VA share register at this date (note at this date VA was still majority Australian owned). This "in-specie" dividend representing a beneficial interest in VAIH (the VA international arm). Unlike the VA shares traded on the ASX (ASX ticker :VAH), the beneficial ownership in VAIH cannot be traded. So even if VAH shareholders sold their existing VAH shares, they would still maintain their beneficial ownership in VAIH (given to them via the in-specie dividend). So when SQ/NZ/EY subsequently increased their stake to over 50%, the ownership of VAIH still remained majority Australian owned (as the ownership in VAIH remains static). Hopefully that makes sense. The VAIH shares are basically worth nothing because VA put into place various arrangements whereby VAIH owes a shedload of money to the Australian arm of VA and makes no profit (see the link above for further detail).

That's easy to follow.

But the questions remains, who are the shareholders of VAIH? And that's the point, there are a whole group of people who apparently "own" VAIH without being given any of the rights that ownership would normally convey. I have reservations about whether such an arrangement would survive being tested by a Court and it's certainly not something Virgin would want to happen.
 
747m8te
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 129

Wed Sep 23, 2015 12:54 pm

Quoting IndianicWorld (Reply 38):
^^ BNE really has the advantage on North America, Pacific Islands and North Asia, but the rest of the globe is actually closer to MEL.

Well actually QF haven't grown many markets beyond those parts of the world out of BNE, still only single daily to LAX, SIN and HKG, with the only new destination being added being Tokyo (which is in north Asia of course), plus AKL and seasonal increases and services to WLG/CHC.

But I wasn't thinking so much closer to the rest of the world in which MEL is marginally closer, but BNE being more central to eastern Australian destinations within Australia and closer to tourist hot spots which QF maybe trying to tap into more (such as the decision to fly BNE-NRT). I think QF have a larger domestic network (destinations served) then what they operate out of MEL, which could be another factor maybe??? If it was simply about being closer to the rest of the world then PER would be the city for it.

Quoting SYDSpotter (Reply 39):
The fact that QF have decided to put on additional services into BNE (rather than MEL) is more indicative that the BNE market is less saturated vs MEL.

MEL does has a lot more services and does face a lot of competition from other carriers, another factor to note with BNE is the lack of low cost completion flying internationally. There is no AirAsia or Scoot flying to south east Asia, and limited carriers from mainland China. Even JQ only serve two international destinations from BNE being HNL and DPS, strangely there are no services to New Zealand on JQ out of BNE. (Though OOL gets the low cost carriers).

This is probably definitely another factor QF consider.
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 129

Wed Sep 23, 2015 12:58 pm

Quoting Sydscott (Reply 41):
That's easy to follow.

But the questions remains, who are the shareholders of VAIH? And that's the point, there are a whole group of people who apparently "own" VAIH without being given any of the rights that ownership would normally convey. I have reservations about whether such an arrangement would survive being tested by a Court and it's certainly not something Virgin would want to happen.

The simple answer is that shareholders who were on the VAH share register the day the "in specie" dividend was given are the shareholders in VAIH, and they will continue to be the shareholders in the future as the beneficial ownership cannot be sold/transferred.
But I digress, I know the angle you are coming from. Can you really have ownership in an 'airline' when the economic benefits don't flow to you but to the shareholders of VAH? So in effect you have ownership in nothing but a shell company. In legal form (i.e. the VAIH share register), they are the owners but in substance it is really the VAH shareholders who are the owners in VAIH as they get all the economic benefit. I'm no lawyer, so I'm not sure if legal form rather than economic substance determines 'ownership'. But you can be sure that VA would've hired one of the big legal firms to give them a pretty strong opinion that it would stack up in court if challenged.
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IndianicWorld
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 129

Wed Sep 23, 2015 1:03 pm

^^ BNE certainly had a couple of advantages when it came to the new NRT route, but the biggest plus for QF was that BNE had no flights to Japan.

Yes, OOL does have flights but it was reported that the Qld govt did throw more financial incentives to QF for BNE to take the full component of the flights that they were offering.
 
qf002
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 129

Wed Sep 23, 2015 1:04 pm

Quoting SYDSpotter (Reply 29):
So even if VAH shareholders sold their existing VAH shares, they would still maintain their beneficial ownership in VAIH (given to them via the in-specie dividend). So when SQ/NZ/EY subsequently increased their stake to over 50%, the ownership of VAIH still remained majority Australian owned (as the ownership in VAIH remains static).

So what they've effectively created is an airline that is (or can be) owned by nobody in particular at all. They're using the residency status of former VAH shareholders for the long-term financial benefit of foreign governments.

Just another reason not to like what VA has become...

Quoting Sydscott (Reply 41):
I have reservations about whether such an arrangement would survive being tested by a Court and it's certainly not something Virgin would want to happen.

I would love to see QF pursue this now that they have got themselves largely sorted out.
 
DeltaB717
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 129

Thu Sep 24, 2015 12:33 am

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 34):

Yeah, it is.

Not sure whether it would be the Federal Court or the Administrative Appeals Tribunal that would hear any appeal. The answer to that may well be in the Air Navigation Act or the International Air Services Commission Act which establishes the IASC.
 
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 129

Thu Sep 24, 2015 12:52 am

CX to add 5th weekly flight to ADL from 2 Dec 15

http://www.ausbt.com.au/cathay-pacif...amps-up-adelaide-hong-kong-flights
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Sydscott
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 129

Thu Sep 24, 2015 12:53 am

Quoting DeltaB717 (Reply 46):
Not sure whether it would be the Federal Court or the Administrative Appeals Tribunal that would hear any appeal. The answer to that may well be in the Air Navigation Act or the International Air Services Commission Act which establishes the IASC.

Ultimately it is the Federal Court which has jurisdiction.

Quoting qf002 (Reply 45):

I would love to see QF pursue this now that they have got themselves largely sorted out.

As would I.

Quoting qf002 (Reply 45):
So what they've effectively created is an airline that is (or can be) owned by nobody in particular at all. They're using the residency status of former VAH shareholders for the long-term financial benefit of foreign governments.

The problem is that we don't actually know that. And the further question for that is "what happens if one or more of those shareholders in VAIH has changed their residency status?" How is VA monitoring the residency status of those former VAH shareholders who received this in specie dividend?

Quoting SYDSpotter (Reply 43):
But you can be sure that VA would've hired one of the big legal firms to give them a pretty strong opinion that it would stack up in court if challenged.

I deal alot in taxation law which I recognise is different to other forms of law. But in taxation law its all about substance over form. If it looks like an orange, feels like an orange and tastes like an orange then it probably is one. I know some parts of the law give scope for arguing that maybe its not an Orange.  
Quoting SYDSpotter (Reply 43):
The simple answer is that shareholders who were on the VAH share register the day the "in specie" dividend was given are the shareholders in VAIH, and they will continue to be the shareholders in the future as the beneficial ownership cannot be sold/transferred.

What if one of those shareholders changes their residency / domicile and becomes a non-resident? Qantas is obliged to make sure it doesn't breach the 49% ownership cap but if VAIH has a beneficial ownership that cannot be sold or transferred and one or more of the supposed shareholders in VAIH becomes non-resident that would effect the standing of VAIH. What if one of those shareholders dies? Technically the deceased estate would have an interest in VAIH that would need to be accounted for and that VAIH would need to keep track of.

To my mind this brings a substantial number of questions up as to right now, exactly who owns VAIH and what their residency is.
 
atal17
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 129

Thu Sep 24, 2015 2:19 am

Qatar & Australia sign revised bilateral agreement, increases flight frequencies from 14pw to 21pw effective immediately. With this, Qatar Airways is expected into SYD.

http://www.businesstimes.com.sg/tran...tar-agree-to-boost-flight-capacity

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