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777X
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More DL 744 Woes

Tue Sep 22, 2015 9:34 pm

A DL 747-400 from AMS to ATL had departed AMS when they had to shut down the engine and return to AMS.

This marks the third DL 744 incident this September, and sixth since June. Is this just bad luck, or is it a fixable problem?

http://avherald.com/h?article=48cb9fbb&opt=0
 
Sightseer
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RE: More DL 744 Woes

Tue Sep 22, 2015 9:38 pm

Quoting 777X (Thread starter):
Is this just bad luck, or is it a fixable problem?

It's likely just a reality of operating an old fleet, although concentrating the 744s solely at DTW might help slightly.
 
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northwestEWR
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RE: More DL 744 Woes

Tue Sep 22, 2015 9:40 pm

Quoting Sightseer (Reply 1):
It's likely just a reality of operating an old fleet, although concentrating the 744s solely at DTW might help slightly.

It will--The ATL routes have really struggled this summer with near constant delays due in part to problems on the ground at ATL but because they don't have a spare in ATL, that isn't the case in DTW and they can usually aircraft swap if there is going to be a significant maintenance delay.

The 747s are really good at what they do but they have to be pampered in order to do it. Moving them back to DTW will help a lot.
Northwest Airlines - Now You're Flying Smart
 
luv2fly
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RE: More DL 744 Woes

Tue Sep 22, 2015 10:57 pm

Didn't UA solve there 747 problems by keeping them SFO based?
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
DTWPurserBoy
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RE: More DL 744 Woes

Tue Sep 22, 2015 11:03 pm

DL is trying to run out the clock on the airplanes before parking them for good. They recently purchased a few simply for spares, primarily engines I would think.

The 744 is a good reliable machine and suffers no more maintenance issues than any other type. You have a lot more safety margin with 4 turning instead of 2. I have worked on flights that had an engine shutdown and passengers never even knew it had happened. The flight attendants all knew it because they are used to the normal sounds of the aircraft and can instantly tell when something has changed.
Qualified on Concorde/B707/B720/B727/B737/B747/B757/B767/B777/DC-8/DC-9/DC-10/A319/A320/A330/MD-88-90
 
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northwestEWR
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RE: More DL 744 Woes

Tue Sep 22, 2015 11:12 pm

Quoting luv2fly (Reply 4):
Didn't UA solve there 747 problems by keeping them SFO based?

That's my understanding--yes.

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 5):
DL is trying to run out the clock on the airplanes before parking them for good. They recently purchased a few simply for spares, primarily engines I would think.

Indeed, I've heard it was for both spare 747 parts and PW4000 engines--either for the 747s or 767s.
Northwest Airlines - Now You're Flying Smart
 
texdravid
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RE: More DL 744 Woes

Wed Sep 23, 2015 12:31 am

Lol, I think a lot of Anetters and myself included can discern the sound of one engine down in a 744.
The average person, no.
Tort reform now. Throw lawyers in jail later.
 
MSPNWA
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RE: More DL 744 Woes

Wed Sep 23, 2015 12:42 am

An engine issue sounds more like bad luck, but the DL 744 fleet has struggled for a little while. I think it has to be notied that these old 744s are among the oldest aircraft still flying for a major passenger airline. And with widebodies, it's not like you have plenty of spares laying around. Every maintenance issue becomes an issue.
 
mark2fly1034
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RE: More DL 744 Woes

Wed Sep 23, 2015 1:22 am

I was on the flight it happened right after takeoff I noticed we were not going above 6,000 feet, after a few minutes the pilot told us they had lost oil pressure in the #1 engine and we were going to dump fuel and return. After landing we taxied to a remote stand and after 3 hours they cans led the flight. Crew handed out water and snacks ever hour so it was more of a pain not knowing if we would leave again. They did start to let people off but told them it would take 2 hours to get checked bags and not soon after the word came to bus everyone over to the terminal. I just arrived off KLM in Atlanta crew did a great job, wish they had more buses to send people back it was a slow process
 
flyDTW1992
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RE: More DL 744 Woes

Wed Sep 23, 2015 1:32 am

Quoting northwestEWR (Reply 6):
Indeed, I've heard it was for both spare 747 parts and PW4000 engines--either for the 747s or 767s.

Just did a major facepalm because I always just thought DL's 744s had CF6s. And I've seen them up close on several occasions before, too. Duh.
Now you're flying smart
 
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northwestEWR
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RE: More DL 744 Woes

Wed Sep 23, 2015 2:39 am

Quoting flyDTW1992 (Reply 10):
Just did a major facepalm because I always just thought DL's 744s had CF6s. And I've seen them up close on several occasions before, too. Duh.

Come on now, Northwest buy an engine that wasn't Pratt? Please.  
Northwest Airlines - Now You're Flying Smart
 
Max Q
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RE: More DL 744 Woes

Wed Sep 23, 2015 3:34 am

Don't see why they weren't able to continue on three.


The Aircraft was designed to do so, the loss of one engine is not considered an emergency and its designed
to be able to complete the flight.
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


GGg
 
Flighty
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RE: More DL 744 Woes

Wed Sep 23, 2015 3:49 am

MaxQ. You probably know well about the BA flight that completed an Atlantic crossing on three. They made an emergency fuel stop short of their destination because they were cutting it too close. In the end, gutsy flying but not worth it.
 
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northwestEWR
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RE: More DL 744 Woes

Wed Sep 23, 2015 4:15 am

Quoting Max Q (Reply 12):

Yes, technically legal and I'll have to check but I doubt it's in Delta's OpSpecs or 747 manuals where they can continue on 3. The carrier can be more restrictive than the FAA/EASA.

It just doesn't make sense for them to push the limit when you're that close to a major maintenance and passenger hub. Better safe than sorry.
Northwest Airlines - Now You're Flying Smart
 
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mayor
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RE: More DL 744 Woes

Wed Sep 23, 2015 4:18 am

Quoting northwestEWR (Reply 2):
The 747s are really good at what they do but they have to be pampered in order to do it. Moving them back to DTW will help a lot.

Sort of like the Tristars in the last few years of their service.
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
 
Max Q
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RE: More DL 744 Woes

Wed Sep 23, 2015 4:24 am

Quoting Flighty (Reply 13):
MaxQ. You probably know well about the BA flight that completed an Atlantic crossing on three. They made an emergency fuel stop short of their destination because they were cutting it too close. In the end, gutsy flying but not worth it.

They weren't cutting anything too close.


They continued that flight in accordance with the certification of the aircraft, the flight manual and in conjunction with their dispatch and maintenance departments who all concurred it was safe to do so. They had more redundancy remaining on their 747 after that engine failure than you have in your B767 with everything working.


Nothing 'gutsy' about it and they didn't make an 'emergency' fuel stop, they diverted to MAN for fuel as they would not be able to land at LHR with normal reserves (this happens regularly on flights without engine failures)


Four and three engine jet transports are designed and certificated to be able to continue to their destination with the loss of one engine. In this world of twins its easy to forget that, lose an engine on a twin and you land at the nearest suitable airport, no decision to be made.


Three and four engine transports do not have to comply with that, justifiably , because of their redundancy, they have been completing flights for decades with an engine shut down with no controversy whatsoever, it was only the unwarranted hysteria over the BA flight that drew attention to the practice and, incidentally that crew was exonerated of any 'wrongdoing' by both the FAA and CAA.


Rightly so, they were the authorities that approved the procedure.
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


GGg
 
AWACSooner
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RE: More DL 744 Woes

Wed Sep 23, 2015 6:53 am

Quoting mayor (Reply 15):
Sort of like the Tristars in the last few years of their service.

Don't mention that airplane...it still makes me cry that I will never get to fly on the sexiest airplane ever made!
 
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747classic
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RE: More DL 744 Woes

Wed Sep 23, 2015 8:01 am

Quoting Max Q (Reply 16):
Three and four engine transports do not have to comply with that, justifiably , because of their redundancy, they have been completing flights for decades with an engine shut down with no controversy whatsoever, it was only the unwarranted hysteria over the BA flight that drew attention to the practice and, incidentally that crew was exonerated of any 'wrongdoing' by both the FAA and CAA.

I couldn't agree more.

Quoting Max Q (Reply 16):
Four and three engine jet transports are designed and certificated to be able to continue to their destination with the loss of one engine. In this world of twins its easy to forget that, lose an engine on a twin and you land at the nearest suitable airport, no decision to be made.

See my signature below.
Operating a twin over the ocean, you're always one engine failure from a total emergency.
 
bhmdiversion
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RE: More DL 744 Woes

Wed Sep 23, 2015 8:42 am

Kalitta charter is on the way to AMS now with a new engine and tooling... Flight is CKS503.
 
TC957
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RE: More DL 744 Woes

Wed Sep 23, 2015 11:35 am

Lets face it guys, that first batch of 10 ex-NW 744's are 25+ years old and knackered from being hacked across the Pacific all that time. Far newer frames are being withdrawn by others and parked up. For example, CI's first batch of 9 are also PW powered and starting to be sent to the desert, and are 8 - 10 years younger.
So at least there is a ready and plentiful spares solution.
Of course, DL can always order a few 748i's ....wishful thinking I know.
 
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cathay747
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RE: More DL 744 Woes

Wed Sep 23, 2015 11:47 am

Quoting northwestEWR (Reply 11):
Come on now, Northwest buy an engine that wasn't Pratt? Please.

LOL, how true...Don Nyrop was famously once quoted, when
discussing an engine choice of which GE was possibly one,
"if I want to buy light bulbs I'll talk to GE".
Try a Little VC-10derness
 
bobnwa
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RE: More DL 744 Woes

Wed Sep 23, 2015 11:49 am

Quoting TC957 (Reply 20):
10 ex-NW 744's are 25+ years old and knackered from being hacked across the Pacific all that time.

Why would it make a difference what ocean they were fly over, to make them "knackered up" Have no idea what that means
 
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WesternDC6B
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RE: More DL 744 Woes

Wed Sep 23, 2015 1:27 pm

Quoting Max Q (Reply 12):
Don't see why they weren't able to continue on three.


The Aircraft was designed to do so, the loss of one engine is not considered an emergency and its designed
to be able to complete the flight.

A British Airways crew did that, and was pilloried in the press for it. The very same press that writes up a ground accident as a crash, and tells us about incidents involving a "twin-engine DC8 Super Constellation".

[Edited 2015-09-23 06:36:32]
Never employ grandios verbiage when the utilisation of diminutive phraseology will suffice.
 
leothedog
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RE: More DL 744 Woes

Wed Sep 23, 2015 1:55 pm

Question: What's going to happen to the plane? Pictures don't look very good for repair (I'm no expert). If it can't be fixed to fly again, then what? Do they park it in a remote location, strip it, then have it with a giant back hoe?
I've got things to see and people to do.
 
Western727
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RE: More DL 744 Woes

Wed Sep 23, 2015 2:24 pm

Quoting leothedog (Reply 24):

As bhmdiversion states in reply 19, a new engine is being flown to AMS, so it looks like it'll be fixed to fly again.
Jack @ AUS
 
DTWPurserBoy
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RE: More DL 744 Woes

Wed Sep 23, 2015 2:50 pm

Quoting leothedog (Reply 24):






Question: What's going to happen to the plane? Pictures don't look very good for repair (I'm no expert). If it can't be fixed to fly again, then what? Do they park it in a remote location, strip it, then have it with a giant back hoe?

No, they change out the engine, make any other necessary repairs and return it to service. You don't scrap your car when the "check engine" light comes on, do you?

DL made one exception when a 744was seriously damaged by hail in SEL. The ferried it straight to MHZ for retirement and pulled another ship out of the desert. The cost of the repair and the length of time it would take made it uneconomical.

DL routinely swaps out parked airplanes with active ones to equalize the time on the airframes before a major overhaul is needed. Good business sense.

Just for the record, you have not lived until you have been on a 747 that blows an engine inflight. With a big KABOOM and an airframe rattling shudder, a flash of flame out the tailpipe and a lot of smoke. And the old girl doesn't even breath hard. The passengers freak--the crew are pissed because it means they won't get home on schedule.
Qualified on Concorde/B707/B720/B727/B737/B747/B757/B767/B777/DC-8/DC-9/DC-10/A319/A320/A330/MD-88-90
 
diverted
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RE: More DL 744 Woes

Wed Sep 23, 2015 2:50 pm

Quoting leothedog (Reply 24):
Question: What's going to happen to the plane? Pictures don't look very good for repair (I'm no expert). If it can't be fixed to fly again, then what? Do they park it in a remote location, strip it, then have it with a giant back hoe?

There's pics?

Wouldn't imagine it would be anything more than an engine change and ferry the aircraft home.
 
Yakflyer
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RE: More DL 744 Woes

Wed Sep 23, 2015 2:54 pm

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 5):
The 744 is a good reliable machine and suffers no more maintenance issues than any other type. You have a lot more safety margin with 4 turning instead of 2.

Any four engine airplane should be and typically is safer than a two engine airplane, but your statement about suffering no more maintenance issues than any other type is just not true. An ETOPS twin engine airplane is at least 50% if not more less likely to have an engine failure or shutdown than a four engine airplane. Additionally, ETOPS engines are required to be maintained to a higher standard than non ETOPS engines (that does not mean different operators do not maintain non ETOPS engines to the same standard). Statically you double the likelihood of an issue if you double your exposure.
 
questions
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RE: More DL 744 Woes

Wed Sep 23, 2015 3:05 pm

How much more fuel efficient is a 77W vs a 748? (ballpark figure)
 
mark2fly1034
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RE: More DL 744 Woes

Wed Sep 23, 2015 3:18 pm

A few photos from DL73 First one was at the gate area waiting for departure
http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg120/DVA4890/DSC_6938_zpsiu65hmyc.jpg

Fuel dump in flight
http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg120/DVA4890/DSC_6944_zpsvbyq4bdh.jpg

Using Air Stairs getting off the plane
http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg120/DVA4890/DSC_6945_zpsha7ug4ls.jpg
http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg120/DVA4890/DSC_6947_zpsdgj1j83f.jpg
 
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readytotaxi
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RE: More DL 744 Woes

Wed Sep 23, 2015 3:20 pm

Quoting bhmdiversion (Reply 19):
Kalitta charter is on the way to AMS now with a new engine and tooling... Flight is CKS503.

Curious, once replacement has taken place can Delta return with the engine in the cargo bay or will Kalitta do the return trip?
you don't get a second chance to make a first impression!
Growing older, but not up.
 
MSPNWA
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RE: More DL 744 Woes

Wed Sep 23, 2015 4:15 pm

Quoting bhmdiversion (Reply 19):
Kalitta charter is on the way to AMS now with a new engine and tooling... Flight is CKS503.

A lot of irony in this flight. It's a former NW freighter - a rare 742 - with, you guessed it, PW JT9 engines. The old PWs were carrying a newer PW.
 
airnorth
Posts: 462
Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2011 7:30 am

RE: More DL 744 Woes

Wed Sep 23, 2015 4:29 pm

Quoting questions (Reply 29):
How much more fuel efficient is a 77W vs a 748? (ballpark figure)

Good question, I often wonder the same thing, but there are so many variables.
Using Google this old thread popped up:
What Is The Fuel Burn Rate Of B777-200LR/300ER (by philippelouis1 Apr 26 2011 in Tech Ops)

Lots of heated discussion about "the numbers"!
  

This quote might help, but it does not include the 747-8:

Per previous posting by Zeke these are the fuel burn rates used by CX pilots for calculations

772/A343 6900kg/hr
A333 6000kg/hr
A346 8900kg/hr
744 11100kg/hr
77W 8100kg/hr
 
audidudi
Posts: 2454
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RE: More DL 744 Woes

Wed Sep 23, 2015 4:49 pm

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 26):

The DL B744 was actually en route from DTW>ICN when it encountered the hailstorm over China and continued on to ICN, and was subsequently ferried to MZJ when sufficient repairs had been completed.
 
DTWPurserBoy
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RE: More DL 744 Woes

Wed Sep 23, 2015 6:00 pm

Quoting audidudi (Reply 34):
The DL B744 was actually en route from DTW>ICN when it encountered the hailstorm over China and continued on to ICN, and was subsequently ferried to MZJ when sufficient repairs had been completed.

Thanks for the clarifications. Mx friends had told me the ship would be retired.
Qualified on Concorde/B707/B720/B727/B737/B747/B757/B767/B777/DC-8/DC-9/DC-10/A319/A320/A330/MD-88-90
 
captainstefan
Posts: 338
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RE: More DL 744 Woes

Wed Sep 23, 2015 6:05 pm

Quoting northwestEWR (Reply 14):
Yes, technically legal and I'll have to check but I doubt it's in Delta's OpSpecs or 747 manuals where they can continue on 3.

I'm thinking that the phase of flight played a big role in the decision. Had they lost the engine at, say, FL340 halfway across the ocean I bet they would've continued the flight to Atlanta. However... losing the engine so early in the flight, and (possibly) not knowing if it's an isolated issue or one that can escalate to include other engines - it only makes sense to turn back. And that's just my opinion as an armchair pilot, I doubt the SOPs are that lenient.

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 8):
An engine issue sounds more like bad luck, but the DL 744 fleet has struggled for a little while. I think it has to be notied that these old 744s are among the oldest aircraft still flying for a major passenger airline.

From the mouth of a DL 744 Captain I spoke to two weeks ago in NRT, the biggest reason is that Delta is continually taking lower-time/better condition engines off the 747s and putting them on 767s, placing the higher-time more worn out motors from the latter on the former. While I haven't confirmed it with anyone else, that seems like a pretty plausible explanation. While unfortunate, It seems that DL would rather operate two 767s reliably than one 747 when forced to choose.
Long Live the Tulip!
 
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mayor
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RE: More DL 744 Woes

Wed Sep 23, 2015 6:32 pm

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 35):

Thanks for the clarifications. Mx friends had told me the ship would be retired.

I thought they had to do some repairs, just to be able to ferry it to MHZ, where it's being retired.......but I could be wrong.
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
 
UA444
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RE: More DL 744 Woes

Wed Sep 23, 2015 6:36 pm

Quoting mayor (Reply 37):

They did a few repairs to permit them to get a ferry permit then flew it straight to the desert. It would've been retired this year anyway.
 
diverted
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RE: More DL 744 Woes

Wed Sep 23, 2015 6:41 pm

Quoting captainstefan (Reply 36):
From the mouth of a DL 744 Captain I spoke to two weeks ago in NRT, the biggest reason is that Delta is continually taking lower-time/better condition engines off the 747s and putting them on 767s, placing the higher-time more worn out motors from the latter on the former. While I haven't confirmed it with anyone else, that seems like a pretty plausible explanation. While unfortunate, It seems that DL would rather operate two 767s reliably than one 747 when forced to choose.

Makes total sense really. I've heard of BA doing the same (And AC when they had them. Though that was from a college prof who was an ex AC captain, so I can't verify it's truth)

You have an engine failure on a 767, it's an emergency situation. Have it on the 744, it's an inconvenience.

Quoting mayor (Reply 37):
I thought they had to do some repairs, just to be able to ferry it to MHZ, where it's being retired.......but I could be wrong.

I was under the same impression. They did a few temp repairs to get a ferry permit, and she went straight to the desert, and another ship was reactivated from the desert to replace her.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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RE: More DL 744 Woes

Thu Sep 24, 2015 3:19 am

Quoting captainstefan (Reply 35):
From the mouth of a DL 744 Captain I spoke to two weeks ago in NRT, the biggest reason is that Delta is continually taking lower-time/better condition engines off the 747s and putting them on 767s, placing the higher-time more worn out motors from the latter on the former. While I haven't confirmed it with anyone else, that seems like a pretty plausible explanation. While unfortunate, It seems that DL would rather operate two 767s reliably than one 747 when forced to choose.

Never really paid much attention but is it true they use the same engines (and they are interchangable) of the DL (former NW) 744s and the DL 763s?
 
UA444
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RE: More DL 744 Woes

Thu Sep 24, 2015 4:32 am

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 39):

They are interchangeable. UA has used 744 and 763 engines interchangeably too.
 
flyDTW1992
Posts: 1055
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RE: More DL 744 Woes

Thu Sep 24, 2015 4:54 am

Quoting readytotaxi (Reply 30):
Curious, once replacement has taken place can Delta return with the engine in the cargo bay or will Kalitta do the return trip?

We didn't return to ATL with the bad engine, though we have done that many times before (just so happens we are doing a round-trip "engine rescue" for another major airline as we speak). It can't be carried on the lower deck, so it must be staying in AMS for now.
Now you're flying smart
 
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N776AU
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RE: More DL 744 Woes

Thu Sep 24, 2015 1:27 pm

If things get so bad they downgrade my 747 round trip to Minneapolis in November I'm gonna very upset   
Careful, doors are closing, and will not reopen. Please wait for the next train.
 
diverted
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RE: More DL 744 Woes

Thu Sep 24, 2015 1:57 pm

Quoting flyDTW1992 (Reply 41):
We didn't return to ATL with the bad engine, though we have done that many times before (just so happens we are doing a round-trip "engine rescue" for another major airline as we speak). It can't be carried on the lower deck, so it must be staying in AMS for now.

Could they not put it onthe 5th pod and get it home that way? (On one of their birds, not the Kalitta bird)
 
QF744ER
Posts: 437
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RE: More DL 744 Woes

Thu Sep 24, 2015 2:31 pm

Pretty sure only Rolls Royce engines can be carried in 5th pod under slung configuration.
 
diverted
Posts: 1293
Joined: Sat May 17, 2014 3:17 pm

RE: More DL 744 Woes

Thu Sep 24, 2015 2:49 pm

Quoting QF744ER (Reply 44):
Pretty sure only Rolls Royce engines can be carried in 5th pod under slung configuration.

After doing a little more reading, it seems that it was an option on the 744, and only QF took it.
 
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mayor
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RE: More DL 744 Woes

Thu Sep 24, 2015 4:02 pm

I have no idea if this is true or not, and I'm unable to determine the credibility of this, but someone has told me that they were told by DL senior leadership that the 747s would remains in service until 2024.


Don't shoot me, I'm only the messenger.........  
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
 
papatango
Posts: 477
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RE: More DL 744 Woes

Thu Sep 24, 2015 4:18 pm

It's time for Delta to retire all the 747's and pick up some used 777-300's!
 
diverted
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RE: More DL 744 Woes

Thu Sep 24, 2015 4:18 pm

Quoting mayor (Reply 46):
I have no idea if this is true or not, and I'm unable to determine the credibility of this, but someone has told me that they were told by DL senior leadership that the 747s would remains in service until 2024.

It's possible....the second batch is a few years newer than the originals. Though it wasn't that long ago DL announced their wind down plan for the fleet. I know things change often, but it does seem strange. I won't at all complain to see a few of them stay longer. However, it would be a bit weird to go to the museum in 2024 and see a 744 which has been there nearly 10 years, while some of her sisters are still flying. Again, not complaining though!
 
SELMER40
Posts: 235
Joined: Sat Jan 26, 2013 9:07 pm

RE: More DL 744 Woes

Thu Sep 24, 2015 9:19 pm

Quoting Western727 (Reply 24):
...fixed to fly again.

N668US is back in DTW.
Teaching this old dog a new trick

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Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos