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apodino
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AA DFW Operational Changes

Wed Sep 23, 2015 5:40 pm

Starting today AA is doing something interesting in DFW. All 757, 737, and A321s will depart from Terminal A while the MD 80s and A319s will depart from Terminal C...this is with the exception of Terminal D flights which will remain a mix due to the nature of that operation.

One interesting thing about this is that LUS is supposed to move to terminal C in November after PSS cutover. They operate some 321s themselves. What happens to them?
 
commavia
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RE: AA DFW Operational Changes

Wed Sep 23, 2015 5:50 pm

Interesting indeed.

Suppose it allows AA to localize, and minimize movement of, GSE, spares, etc.

Wonder if they're doing the same with 767 and 777 - both aircraft types have operated out of both A and C.
 
ScottB
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RE: AA DFW Operational Changes

Wed Sep 23, 2015 5:56 pm

Quoting commavia (Reply 1):
Interesting indeed.

Suppose it allows AA to localize, and minimize movement of, GSE, spares, etc.

I could see a bit of logic in that, however, wouldn't it make more sense to have the A319s and A321s in the same terminal given that they share the most common equipment and spares of all?
 
commavia
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RE: AA DFW Operational Changes

Wed Sep 23, 2015 5:58 pm

Quoting ScottB (Reply 2):
I could see a bit of logic in that, however, wouldn't it make more sense to have the A319s and A321s in the same terminal given that they share the most common equipment and spares of all?

Possibly - only counter argument I could think of is wingtip clearance and gate sizing, as A is likely still generally marked for bigger jets given its history as the former international terminal, whereas C has pretty much always been domestic-focused. That's not to say that very big jets (up to at least 767) can and still do use C, nor that A319s haven't been on C in the last 18 months (I've flown on them out of there), but perhaps that was part of the logic that overwhelmed A319/A321 colocation?
 
32andBelow
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RE: AA DFW Operational Changes

Wed Sep 23, 2015 6:07 pm

Quoting ScottB (Reply 2):
I could see a bit of logic in that, however, wouldn't it make more sense to have the A319s and A321s in the same terminal given that they share the most common equipment and spares of all?

Wouldn't you be more likely to swap max from an md80 to a 319 spare due to MX issues?
 
a380787
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RE: AA DFW Operational Changes

Wed Sep 23, 2015 6:13 pm

The going-tech-and-swap theory makes more sense than just the spares, because that other theory would make more sense if all the A32X are together (LAA + LUS) and all the Boeings together.

are there any other hubs with this kind of segregation ? usually airlines lump all the regionals together but rarely do they artificially split NB fleet types this way.
 
hivue
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RE: AA DFW Operational Changes

Wed Sep 23, 2015 6:15 pm

Quoting apodino (Thread starter):
All 757, 737, and A321s will depart from Terminal A while the MD 80s and A319s will depart from Terminal C

The question is: How will this affect arrivals? Have I (hopefully) seen the last instance of going to pick someone up arriving at C only to find after I get to the airport that I have get back in my car and drive to A? Or do they plan to do a lot of towing planes around the airport?
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OB1504
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RE: AA DFW Operational Changes

Wed Sep 23, 2015 6:22 pm

Quoting a380787 (Reply 5):
are there any other hubs with this kind of segregation ? usually airlines lump all the regionals together but rarely do they artificially split NB fleet types this way.

I think it would only be worth it at a hub the size of DFW.
 
ty97
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RE: AA DFW Operational Changes

Wed Sep 23, 2015 6:22 pm

Quoting hivue (Reply 6):
The question is: How will this affect arrivals? Have I (hopefully) seen the last instance of going to pick someone up arriving at C only to find after I get to the airport that I have get back in my car and drive to A? Or do they plan to do a lot of towing planes around the airport?

I can imagine sitting on a planning outside C waiting for a gate while there are 5 free gates at A.
 
n757tw
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RE: AA DFW Operational Changes

Wed Sep 23, 2015 6:23 pm

I wonder if this has to do with the destinations that this equipment is used for? MD80's and A319 are used on local and thin routes, whereas the A321/757/737's are used on more important stations (LAS/LAX/SFO/MIA/JFK..etc). Of course there are some overlaps.

Also, terminal A is almost completely remodeled, however C is just about to get started. TRIP takes about 2-3 years to complete.

Finally, what happens to the LUS gates in E after the move into C?
 
a380787
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RE: AA DFW Operational Changes

Wed Sep 23, 2015 6:26 pm

Quoting OB1504 (Reply 7):
I think it would only be worth it at a hub the size of DFW.

I don't recall ATL CLT IAH deploying similar strategies.
 
commavia
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RE: AA DFW Operational Changes

Wed Sep 23, 2015 6:31 pm

Quoting 32andBelow (Reply 4):
Wouldn't you be more likely to swap max from an md80 to a 319 spare due to MX issues?

Perhaps - although frankly when equipment swaps do happen (which seems quite rare in the scheme of things), I suspect there are plenty of swaps among virtually all of these aircraft types depending on day, schedule, mission, loads, etc.

Quoting a380787 (Reply 5):
The going-tech-and-swap theory makes more sense than just the spares, because that other theory would make more sense if all the A32X are together (LAA + LUS) and all the Boeings together.

Don't think it would be "just" the issue of spares and GSE, but again, the other factor may well be that once you reach a certain critical mass of scale for any given fleet type - like the A319 and A321, which are highly common - it is less imperative to group them together.

Quoting OB1504 (Reply 7):
I think it would only be worth it at a hub the size of DFW.

   Suspect this type of operational segmentation based on aircraft type would require very large economies of scale to even begin to make sense, and there are only a handful of hubs in the U.S. that large.

Quoting n757tw (Reply 9):
I wonder if this has to do with the destinations that this equipment is used for? MD80's and A319 are used on local and thin routes, whereas the A321/757/737's are used on more important stations (LAS/LAX/SFO/MIA/JFK..etc). Of course there are some overlaps.

Yes and no. There are still plenty of longer and fairly high-profile routes that seem some or all of their flights on MD80s and A319s, and also plenty of larger jets (737 and bigger) used on shorter hops.

Quoting n757tw (Reply 9):
Also, terminal A is almost completely remodeled, however C is just about to get started. TRIP takes about 2-3 years to complete.

True. Just flew out of A the other night and now that large swaths of the terminal have been TRIP'd, the contrast with the non-TRIP'd sections is so dramatic and stark. Can't wait until the whole airport is done. Nonetheless, it's going to be "interesting" to see what happens when they start shutting down sections of C - which has always been highly-utilized with heavy volume from AA's domestic operations.

Quoting n757tw (Reply 9):
Finally, what happens to the LUS gates in E after the move into C?

Good question. Perhaps the airport will use that vacated space to speed up the TRIP remodel of E?
 
Cubsrule
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RE: AA DFW Operational Changes

Wed Sep 23, 2015 6:40 pm

Quoting a380787 (Reply 10):
I don't recall ATL CLT IAH deploying similar strategies.

E-jets are segregated at CLT (on the low C gates), though there are some historical reasons for that.
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Sooner787
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RE: AA DFW Operational Changes

Wed Sep 23, 2015 7:45 pm

Quoting commavia (Reply 11):
Good question. Perhaps the airport will use that vacated space to speed up the TRIP remodel of E?

The US gates in Terminal E have completed their remodeling.

Perhaps Delta could expand into those gates after they get booted from DAL   
 
commavia
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RE: AA DFW Operational Changes

Wed Sep 23, 2015 7:58 pm

Quoting Sooner787 (Reply 13):
The US gates in Terminal E have completed their remodeling.

Indeed. I meant perhaps they could use those already-remodeled, apparently soon-to-be-vacated USAirways high E gates to make room to move other E operators out of those operators' gates and start TRIP on them. To date it's seemed that the E satellite has been the temporary home of displaced E operators while their gates were being remodeled, but if the airport could use both the satellite and the high E gates as 'hotel' space, that could possibly speed up TRIP.
 
ckfred
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RE: AA DFW Operational Changes

Wed Sep 23, 2015 8:05 pm

Wasn't there a time where flights to and from a destination used the same terminal? For years, flights to and from ORD operated out of Terminal A (formerly 2E). I know that isn't always the case these days. In fact, it appears that more flights operate out of C than A.

But, assuming ORD-DFW will remain a mix of MD-80s and 738s until the MD-80 fleet is retired, that will be a pain for misconnects who wind up standing by for a two or three flights.
 
ScottB
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RE: AA DFW Operational Changes

Wed Sep 23, 2015 8:17 pm

Quoting commavia (Reply 3):
Possibly - only counter argument I could think of is wingtip clearance and gate sizing, as A is likely still generally marked for bigger jets

The A321 and A319 have the same wingspan... Plus you have to figure that L-US A320s will start showing up in DFW sooner than later. But there might be some value if the A321s were clustered in the high A gates with the A319s in the low C gates -- if you need to move equipment and spares around, it's a straight shot across the ramp.

Quoting 32andBelow (Reply 4):
Wouldn't you be more likely to swap max from an md80 to a 319 spare due to MX issues?

I doubt they'd be swapping to an entirely different type given issues with crew availability and aircraft flow.

Quoting a380787 (Reply 5):
that other theory would make more sense if all the A32X are together (LAA + LUS) and all the Boeings together.

Well the MD-80s aren't really Boeings if you're talking about spares or equipment...

Quoting a380787 (Reply 10):
I don't recall ATL CLT IAH deploying similar strategies.

You see some grouping of aircraft types at ATL but that's more driven by the sizes of the gates (i.e. B-North is T-tail heaven).
 
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BN727227Ultra
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RE: AA DFW Operational Changes

Wed Sep 23, 2015 8:21 pm

My 788 flight ORD-DFW on 23Oct is scheduled to arrive at A, i was expecting D.
 
apodino
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RE: AA DFW Operational Changes

Wed Sep 23, 2015 8:44 pm

A couple of points to ponder,

Keep in mind that the MD80 fleet continues to shrink. By doing this now...and dedicating the mad dogs to C makes sense because TRiP is about to start there. The 319 fleet is also relatively small, so this is probably why these types are using C...where with A nearly completed and its brighter and roomier....this is why the bigger planes are going there and the smaller fleets are using C, since they are smaller and need fewer gates.

DL and AS are still in the satellite in E. I beleive trip on that portion of E is nearly complete. That being said then what do you do with Air Canada, JetBlue, WestJet and United during the next phase. Gaining four gates helps...the question is who uses them? Do you keep DL and AS in the satellite for now and shift the other airlines down or relocate everyone? Or does NK gain gates?

Quoting hivue (Reply 6):
The question is: How will this affect arrivals? Have I (hopefully) seen the last instance of going to pick someone up arriving at C only to find after I get to the airport that I have get back in my car and drive to A? Or do they plan to do a lot of towing planes around the airport?

Should be very minimal towing except to handstands and MX hangars. This in theory should make last minute gate changes and AC swaps much easier...except of course if the plane is parked over at D

Quoting BN727227Ultra (Reply 17):
My 788 flight ORD-DFW on 23Oct is scheduled to arrive at A, i was expecting D.

The Dreamliners domestic legs have been using A for the most part. I could be wrong but I believe PEK may also be leaving from A.
 
superjeff
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RE: AA DFW Operational Changes

Wed Sep 23, 2015 8:47 pm

Quoting BN727227Ultra (Reply 17):
My 788 flight ORD-DFW on 23Oct is scheduled to arrive at A, i was expecting D.

Depends on the flight. The early morning departure DFW-ORD usually leaves from D; the 12:50pm-ish departure from ORD to DFW and the return, usually operates int A; the last flight back to DFW goes to D.
 
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boilergo
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RE: AA DFW Operational Changes

Thu Sep 24, 2015 1:46 am

Quoting BN727227Ultra (Reply 17):

Keep in mind that is likely just a random placeholder for now. It could very well be that gate, but many airlines don't plan out gates that far in advance. I would even go as far as believing that's just a rough sketch, but from my personal experience, it's completely arbitrary.

[Edited 2015-09-23 18:47:58]
 
afcjets
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RE: AA DFW Operational Changes

Thu Sep 24, 2015 2:37 am

Quoting apodino (Thread starter):

One interesting thing about this is that LUS is supposed to move to terminal C in November after PSS cutover. They operate some 321s themselves. What happens to them?

US goes away and those flights become AA why would they have specific gates for former US flights?

Quoting ckfred (Reply 15):


Wasn't there a time where flights to and from a destination used the same terminal? For years, flights to and from ORD operated out of Terminal A (formerly 2E).

ORD was almost like a shuttle type operation so that would make sense to accommodate the large number of people who standby for earlier flights. It also makes it easier for the ramp too in those cases.
 
dirtyfrankd
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RE: AA DFW Operational Changes

Thu Sep 24, 2015 2:59 am

Just talked to a friend who works in Operations/ Process Improvement at the company and he said it had more with to do with the fact that there are a small enough number of MD-80s now that it makes more sense to keep all the tow bars close to each other rather than having them spread out at different terminals all over the place.
 
AAR90
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RE: AA DFW Operational Changes

Thu Sep 24, 2015 3:08 am

Quoting apodino (Thread starter):
Starting today

Apparently this started on 19th. AA has finally a bit about what is going on....

Why are we doing it?
Efficiencies across all departments are gained. The pros far outweigh the cons.

Pro's:
- Partial market isolation
- More efficient crew connections
- Employee efficiencies developed
-> Ramp
-> Customer Care
-> Maintenance
- Maintenance too/parts storage benefit
- Reduced delay minutes
- Pad Parking
- Stabilized bagroom assignments
- GSE efficiency
- Opportunity to begin dynamic manning

Con's:
- Possible shorter gat times in Terminal-A during peak times
- Possible terminal capacity issues
- Possible taxi-in impact
- Zone overflow
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DeltaRules
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RE: AA DFW Operational Changes

Thu Sep 24, 2015 3:14 am

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 12):
E-jets are segregated at CLT (on the low C gates), though there are some historical reasons for that.


Can you expand on the historical reasons? I know they briefly used CR9s in the low C's after the merger with HP and E-jets on E before they swapped them.
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TXRoadMan
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RE: AA DFW Operational Changes

Thu Sep 24, 2015 3:33 am

Quoting ScottB (Reply 16):
But there might be some value if the A321s were clustered in the high A gates with the A319s in the low C gates -- if you need to move equipment and spares around, it's a straight shot across the ramp.
Quoting apodino (Reply 18):
Keep in mind that the MD80 fleet continues to shrink. By doing this now...and dedicating the mad dogs to C makes sense because TRiP is about to start there

Does that mean that the MadDogs are relegated to the trailer park of High-C? That's not very nice...  

Speaking of the trailer park, are they going to rebuild it during TRIP, or just redecorate it?
 
FlyASAGuy2005
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RE: AA DFW Operational Changes

Thu Sep 24, 2015 4:02 am

Quoting a380787 (Reply 5):
Quoting OB1504 (Reply 7):

DL pretty much does this in ATL to a certain extent.

Quoting afcjets (Reply 21):

Because there are two separate unions and the merger doesn't stop the fact that IAM still handles LUS and TWU handles LAA where there were both. There is a provision in the IAM contract that states, TWU people can do some IAM work however that protects all IAM employees in that station until a new contract is signed. I believe this is being used in a few stations.

Quoting DeltaRules (Reply 24):

The gates on the upper end of C were designed for 737s post expansion. Many of the gates can only accodate Ejets. C10 and C8 are the only gates on C that can park a 757. On B, the gate spacing is much wider.
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BN727227Ultra
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RE: AA DFW Operational Changes

Thu Sep 24, 2015 12:04 pm

Quoting apodino (Reply 18):
The Dreamliners domestic legs have been using A for the most part. I could be wrong but I believe PEK may also be leaving from A.
Quoting superjeff (Reply 19):
Depends on the flight. The early morning departure DFW-ORD usually leaves from D; the 12:50pm-ish departure from ORD to DFW and the return, usually operates int A; the last flight back to DFW goes to D.
Quoting boilergo (Reply 20):
Keep in mind that is likely just a random placeholder for now.

Thanks for the responses. I was proceeding under the apparent misconceptions that 1. All intl arrived and departed from D, and 2. The only times I saw an aircraft being towed was because it was coming from maintenence.

Thanks!
 
commavia
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RE: AA DFW Operational Changes

Thu Sep 24, 2015 12:19 pm

Quoting AAR90 (Reply 23):
Pro's:
- More efficient crew connections
- Employee efficiencies developed
-> Ramp
-> Customer Care
-> Maintenance
- Maintenance too/parts storage benefit
- GSE efficiency

   As expected.

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 26):
DL pretty much does this in ATL to a certain extent.

I've noticed that, too - seems like a lot of the MD80 flights tend to leave out of certain blocs of gates, etc.

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 26):
There is a provision in the IAM contract that states, TWU people can do some IAM work however that protects all IAM employees in that station until a new contract is signed. I believe this is being used in a few stations.

That is my understanding. Could be remembering incorrectly, but seem to recall SAN being an example of this - where because of insourcing, growth, etc. they actually have already begun cross-utilizing staff between the two carriers and two union groups.

Quoting BN727227Ultra (Reply 27):
All intl arrived and departed from D, and 2.

Yeah - definitely not these days. It's funny because - at least as I remember it from basically a decade ago - when D opened, and there was a certain element essentially calling the terminal an underutilized white elephant, the airport actually had to force AA to put precleared (Canada) arrivals and all international departures at D despite the fact that neither of those types of operations necessarily required using D per se. Fast forward about ten years, and today D is so overflowing at peak times of the day that AA has no choice but to use other terminals for international departures.

Now, certainly, there's no question that D still handles the vast majority of international arrivals and departures for AA (and of course any other airlines), but these days it is not at all uncommon - for example - to see at least one if not sometimes two of the evening Europe departures (although never, from what I've seen, LHR) operating out of A, as multiple A gates are still painted and sized for aircraft up to 777 size owing to A's previous role as AA's international terminal.
 
us330
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RE: AA DFW Operational Changes

Thu Sep 24, 2015 1:30 pm

Quoting commavia (Reply 3):
That's not to say that very big jets (up to at least 767) can and still do use C, nor that A319s haven't been on C in the last 18 months

Yeah. I believe C4 and C8 can both handle 767s (and are regularly used for the Hawaii and Los Angeles flights).

I question the decision to relocate all of the 738 departures to A though, given that it is now the most common aircraft in AA's fleet. I would think it would make more sense to have 757/A319/763/777/788 departures solely out of A, the MD80 solely out of C, and the 738/321 out of both given how numerous both types of aircraft are.
 
Cubsrule
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RE: AA DFW Operational Changes

Thu Sep 24, 2015 1:35 pm

Quoting DeltaRules (Reply 24):
Can you expand on the historical reasons? I know they briefly used CR9s in the low C's after the merger with HP and E-jets on E before they swapped them.

After the merger, they installed SHARES on low C gates, which the CR9s and a few West Airbuses then used. The E-jets (operated by RW) used E. After East cut over to SHARES (March, 2007), they switched the E-jets and CR9s (late 2007 or early 2008, IIRC. I remember boarding a CR9 at C in August, 2007 and think I used C for E-jet flights in the spring of 2008). CLT has never seen many 190s, but the 190s used the low C gates too.

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 26):
The gates on the upper end of C were designed for 737s post expansion. Many of the gates can only accodate Ejets. C10 and C8 are the only gates on C that can park a 757.

I think all C gates could take a 733/734. Certainly, most can take small Airbuses.

[Edited 2015-09-24 06:47:24]
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N776AU
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RE: AA DFW Operational Changes

Thu Sep 24, 2015 1:41 pm

Quoting BN727227Ultra (Reply 17):
My 788 flight ORD-DFW on 23Oct is scheduled to arrive at A, i was expecting D.

Surprising. I took the reverse routing and for me it left from D25 and has continued to do so nearly every day.

Quoting a380787 (Reply 10):
I don't recall ATL CLT IAH deploying similar strategies.

Delta for sure does this in Atlanta. All your bigger aircraft like the 757, 767 and such for the most part leave from A. Smaller aircraft like the MD-88s, A319s, and 737s will mostly leave from B which some exceptions of course along the way. Much the same as Dallas concourses E and F are a mish mash because they're international, though in the past some international flights have departed from T or A. Doesn't seem to happen these days though because there is more gate space with F opening up
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commavia
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RE: AA DFW Operational Changes

Thu Sep 24, 2015 1:48 pm

Quoting us330 (Reply 29):
Yeah. I believe C4 and C8 can both handle 767s (and are regularly used for the Hawaii and Los Angeles flights).

Yep - have departed out of C on 767 flights to both places.

Quoting us330 (Reply 29):
I question the decision to relocate all of the 738 departures to A though, given that it is now the most common aircraft in AA's fleet. I would think it would make more sense to have 757/A319/763/777/788 departures solely out of A, the MD80 solely out of C, and the 738/321 out of both given how numerous both types of aircraft are.

Give it time.

The numbers of MD80s - and especially 757s - at DFW is definitely dwindling. It is certainly apparent now when riding the SkyLink and the former see of silver is getting more and more like a dried up lake bed compared to all the 737 and A319/A321 in the new paint.

In time, as the 737 - and A319/A321 - become even more prevalent at DFW, it may well make sense to start spreading those aircraft over multiple terminals or, as was previously suggested, possibly colocate all Airbus at one terminal and all 737 at another. But for at least the next couple of years, I suppose there are likely to still be sufficient numbers of MD80s (and to a lesser extent 757s) to swing decisions. But come sometime in 2016 or 2017, the calculus may be different and the colocation decision may change.

As for the 767 and 777 - don't think either are sufficiently common on the east side of the field to really matter one way or another. I suspect AA rarely runs any more than a maximum of maybe ten daily 767/777 departures off of A/C.
 
FSDan
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RE: AA DFW Operational Changes

Thu Sep 24, 2015 1:51 pm

Quoting commavia (Reply 1):
Wonder if they're doing the same with 767 and 777 - both aircraft types have operated out of both A and C.

I'll be interested to see what happens with the 763s as well. Several times when I have flown through DFW there have been 3 763s simultaneously parked at the A and C gates (probably the morning Hawaii flights) - usually one at C8 and then two on A (A24 and A34, I think). How many 763s can be parked simultaneously just on A without sacrificing a bunch of other gates?

Quoting a380787 (Reply 5):
are there any other hubs with this kind of segregation ?

As mentioned by some others, DL does it a bit. However, it seems to be almost entirely based on gate size. A few examples I can think of:
-CR9s at MSP depart almost exclusively from the C concourse (exceptions are gate D1 and arrivals from YXE/YQR)
-717s at ATL depart almost exclusively from concourse C, although there are also exceptions including international flights
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Sooner787
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RE: AA DFW Operational Changes

Thu Sep 24, 2015 1:54 pm

Quoting commavia (Reply 28):
Yeah - definitely not these days. It's funny because - at least as I remember it from basically a decade ago - when D opened, and there was a certain element essentially calling the terminal an underutilized white elephant, the airport actually had to force AA to put precleared (Canada) arrivals and all international departures at D despite the fact that neither of those types of operations necessarily required using D per se. Fast forward about ten years, and today D is so overflowing at peak times of the day that AA has no choice but to use other terminals for international departures.

Now, certainly, there's no question that D still handles the vast majority of international arrivals and departures for AA (and of course any other airlines), but these days it is not at all uncommon - for example - to see at least one if not sometimes two of the evening Europe departures (although never, from what I've seen, LHR) operating out of A, as multiple A gates are still painted and sized for aircraft up to 777 size owing to A's previous role as AA's international terminal.

The rumors you keep hearing about the future terminal F makes me wonder if that will become a
2nd international terminal with connected walkways to Terminal D ?
 
commavia
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RE: AA DFW Operational Changes

Thu Sep 24, 2015 2:02 pm

Quoting Sooner787 (Reply 34):
The rumors you keep hearing about the future terminal F makes me wonder if that will become a 2nd international terminal with connected walkways to Terminal D ?

Not rumors - I'm just going by what the airport's own management has been quoted in the press saying over the last 18-24 months, which is that F is a matter of when not if. Nonetheless, given the crunch at peak times at D, it seems logical that F could conceivably include at least some international-capable gates. Whether there would be a D-F connector (a la A-C and B-D today) is certainly not out of the question - the DFW Master Plan specifically contemplates it. Although F handling international arrivals and then those passengers having to walk all the way to D to clear customers would seem suboptimal just given the distance involved, not to mention that it would almost certainly require a substantial redesign of D given that D's FIS facilities are already packed at some points of the day as it is.

[Edited 2015-09-24 07:02:39]
 
Cubsrule
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RE: AA DFW Operational Changes

Thu Sep 24, 2015 2:07 pm

Quoting commavia (Reply 35):
Although F handling international arrivals and then those passengers having to walk all the way to D to clear customers would seem suboptimal just given the distance involved, not to mention that it would almost certainly require a substantial redesign of D given that D's FIS facilities are already packed at some points of the day as it is.

If a redesign of D is required anyway, using Skylink to move people from F to D for FIS wouldn't be out of the question. It's an outside-the-box solution, but it would solve the walking issue. Isn't immigration in D on the level between Skylink and the "main floor" of the terminal?
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FlyASAGuy2005
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RE: AA DFW Operational Changes

Thu Sep 24, 2015 2:48 pm

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 30):

They do park Airbus yes but the eJets are relegated to C again because the gate spacing was much smaller to accomodate as many 737s as possible (this is pre-winglets). In general they park on the upper end of C near the atrium area.
What gets measured gets done.
 
superjeff
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RE: AA DFW Operational Changes

Thu Sep 24, 2015 2:59 pm

Quoting hivue (Reply 6):
The question is: How will this affect arrivals? Have I (hopefully) seen the last instance of going to pick someone up arriving at C only to find after I get to the airport that I have get back in my car and drive to A? Or do they plan to do a lot of towing planes around the airport?

You've got to rely on your smart phones at DFW. My experience has been multiple gate changes on every single flight I've been on recently . Since I live here and travel on business, I find myself parking my car with the valet service, so that when I get back in at least I know my car will be at the same terminal (the only exception is Terminal B if I'm on an Eagle trip.
 
Cubsrule
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RE: AA DFW Operational Changes

Thu Sep 24, 2015 3:02 pm

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 37):
In general they park on the upper end of C near the atrium area.

They do pack Airbus on the lower C gates (perhaps with restrictions) as well.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
commavia
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RE: AA DFW Operational Changes

Thu Sep 24, 2015 3:04 pm

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 36):
If a redesign of D is required anyway, using Skylink to move people from F to D for FIS wouldn't be out of the question. It's an outside-the-box solution, but it would solve the walking issue.

Using SkyLink to move people from F to D to clear customs seems like it could be even more complicated of a solution as SkyLink is sterile for circulating passengers already cleared through TSA. Not sure how you could segment a section of the line for just arriving international passengers pre-FIS without actually just building a second SkyLink track just for that purpose.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 36):
Isn't immigration in D on the level between Skylink and the "main floor" of the terminal?

Believe so, yes - arrivals are definitely elevated above the terminal floor (i.e., departure gates).
 
Cubsrule
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RE: AA DFW Operational Changes

Thu Sep 24, 2015 3:07 pm

Quoting commavia (Reply 40):
Using SkyLink to move people from F to D to clear customs seems like it could be even more complicated of a solution as SkyLink is sterile for circulating passengers already cleared through TSA.

Dividing the D station(s) isn't hard, and opening some cars at some stations and not at others should be doable (just programming). I don't know whether it would be worth it. One problem would be the reduction in capacity for connecting passengers.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
FSDan
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RE: AA DFW Operational Changes

Thu Sep 24, 2015 3:13 pm

Quoting us330 (Reply 29):
I question the decision to relocate all of the 738 departures to A though, given that it is now the most common aircraft in AA's fleet.

It may be the most common type in the fleet, but I think there are still more M80s at DFW for now. As the fleet changes, AA will adjust their gate usage accordingly.

Quoting N776AU (Reply 31):
Delta for sure does this in Atlanta. All your bigger aircraft like the 757, 767 and such for the most part leave from A. Smaller aircraft like the MD-88s, A319s, and 737s will mostly leave from B which some exceptions of course along the way.

I think both A and B see a similar mix of aircraft at ATL with the obvious difference being that only A gets the domestic 767s due to gate size. But I still see lots of 757s at B. T these days seems to be mostly M88/M90 where in the past there were quite a few widebodies. I think at some point DL added a gate and readjusted the spacing.
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afcjets
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RE: AA DFW Operational Changes

Thu Sep 24, 2015 3:37 pm

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 26):
The gates on the upper end of C were designed for 737s post expansion. Many of the gates can only accodate Ejets. C10 and C8 are the only gates on C that can park a 757. On B, the gate spacing is much wider.
Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 30):
I think all C gates could take a 733/734. Certainly, most can take small Airbuses.

The first Piedmont 767s always departed from gates C2, C4, and C6 (this was when D was just a single level commuter concourse), and US has even used C10 for 767. Before concourse A opened and before Piedmont received the 767, C2 and C4 were Delta gates, and C6 was United's gate (and they let Ozark and Pan Am use it too). Concourse B was all Eastern. It is pretty clear other airlines had more gate spacing than Piedmont but part of the reason is Piedmont grew so rapidly during the design of the current terminal they squeezed in more jetways during the process so it opened with a density of Piedmont gates. That's why on one side you have C2 and C4, but the other side three gates now, but initially there were four gates, C1,C3,C5,C7 at the beginning of C where the C1 door (pre moving sidewalks / food court / atrium ) faced towards the ticket counter and the jetway was at an angle. They parked the 727-100 there initially, then 737-200 after it was retired. C3 and C7 were usually for the 727-200, but C5 was always a 737.
 
FlyASAGuy2005
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RE: AA DFW Operational Changes

Thu Sep 24, 2015 5:18 pm

Interesting. Yes, I've seen an old photo of Piedmont's first 767-200 sitting on C2. Yes pre A-con and way before D was complete.

Imagine, C5 is now an EMB only gate.
What gets measured gets done.
 
Sooner787
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RE: AA DFW Operational Changes

Thu Sep 24, 2015 5:36 pm

Quoting apodino (Thread starter):
One interesting thing about this is that LUS is supposed to move to terminal C in November after PSS cutover. They operate some 321s themselves. What happens to them?

Thank God. I can't tell you how many clients see their AA/US flight number
and automatically assume it departs from the AA terminals only to learn
they just missed their pmUS jet that departed from Terminal E.

We advise those clients ahead of time that they're departing from E,
but for some of them that advisory goes thru one ear and out the other
 
afcjets
Posts: 3538
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2015 6:20 pm

RE: AA DFW Operational Changes

Thu Sep 24, 2015 6:08 pm

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 44):
Imagine, C5 is now an EMB only gate.

When the current terminal opened on 5/2/82, Piedmont had already retired the YS-11, did not have a commuter affiliate, and only had three aircraft type, the 737-200 and 727-100 and 727-200 (which they had just received from PSA), so no other aircraft could be parked at those Piedmont exclusive gates. They controlled all of C except for C2/C4/C6. The end of C (before it was expanded had one continuous counter for C8/10/12/14 but gates 10/12/14 were demolished with the expansion and are not the same as they are now. The beginning of C was never as cramped with the 6 gates because Delta rarely used C4 and it was almost always empty (until A opened and PI inherited all of C). DL started CVG and GSO too when the new airport opened but it didn't last long, ATL departed C2 and the only time C4 was used was for the DC9 for the CVG and its through to GSO flight (may have been RDU but pretty sure it was GSO). I forgot to mention US started CLT around the same time and they also used C4. They moved to B3 IIRC when the merger with Piedmont was pending. AA arrived after the C expansion but before A opened and used the end of C (C18 and C19 I believe) for their flights to DFW and ORD.
 
BHMNONREV
Posts: 1237
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RE: AA DFW Operational Changes

Thu Sep 24, 2015 6:51 pm

Quoting commavia (Reply 35):
Not rumors - I'm just going by what the airport's own management has been quoted in the press saying over the last 18-24 months, which is that F is a matter of when not if. Nonetheless, given the crunch at peak times at D, it seems logical that F could conceivably include at least some international-capable gates. Whether there would be a D-F connector (a la A-C and B-D today) is certainly not out of the question - the DFW Master Plan specifically contemplates it. Although F handling international arrivals and then those passengers having to walk all the way to D to clear customers would seem suboptimal just given the distance involved, not to mention that it would almost certainly require a substantial redesign of D given that D's FIS facilities are already packed at some points of the day as it is.

Can't see the justification for a completely new additional terminal to handle current peaks or surges in the daily international arrivals flow. I would think a more prudent option would be to build a finger to the south of D which would parallel the lower D gates to give an additional 8-10 positions for NB aircraft, with moving sidewalks to get passengers to arrivals. Or just make it a stand alone facility ala the remote gates at LAX, and bus passengers to the terminal during peak periods.

However if F does finally get built, who ends up footing the bill?
 
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zululima
Posts: 477
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RE: AA DFW Operational Changes

Thu Sep 24, 2015 7:22 pm

Quoting BHMNONREV (Reply 47):
Can't see the justification for a completely new additional terminal to handle current peaks or surges in the daily international arrivals flow.

That's what uninformed and shortsighted people said about Termanal D last decade (previously mentioned 
Quoting commavia (Reply 28):
I remember it from basically a decade ago - when D opened, and there was a certain element essentially calling the terminal an underutilized white elephant, the airport actually had to force AA to put precleared (Canada) arrivals and all international departures at D despite the fact that neither of those types of operations necessarily required using D per se. Fast forward about ten years, and today D is so overflowing at peak times of the day that AA has no choice but to use other terminals for international departures

Given that F is only a paper terminal at this point, and will take years to complete, I don't see this as too much capacity, especially with the continued growth of the airport. DFW may be the only major construction project in the Metroplex that builds for the future and not just to satisfy current demand (looking at you highway system).

Quoting BHMNONREV (Reply 47):
However if F does finally get built, who ends up footing the bill?

The airport builds all of its own stuff, sometimes with FAA funds helping out. Of course, they will continue to the inexorable raising of parking/landing fees, etc, but the direct cost will be borne by DFW.

Quoting commavia (Reply 35):
Not rumors - I'm just going by what the airport's own management has been quoted in the press saying over the last 18-24 months, which is that F is a matter of when not if.

Construction companies have already been given notice to prepare for forthcoming RFPs, or something like that. It's definitely in the works.
I didn't get a 'Harumph' outta that guy!
 
commavia
Posts: 11489
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RE: AA DFW Operational Changes

Thu Sep 24, 2015 7:37 pm

Quoting BHMNONREV (Reply 47):
Can't see the justification for a completely new additional terminal to handle current peaks or surges in the daily international arrivals flow.

Oh absolutely not. Overflow capacity for international arrivals would never be "the justification for a completely new additional terminal." As said previously, if anything I could see F having some capacity for international arrivals with some potential provision for future expansion of the arrivals into more and more of the terminal as that traffic grows, but I think it's quite likely if not a virtual certainty that, at least to start, F will be largely if not mostly a domestic terminal.

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