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Ncfc99
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RE: UA Forcing 787 Window "shades" To Be Blackened

Fri Sep 25, 2015 12:37 pm

Quoting EK345 (Reply 49):
You obviously haven't flown on an afternoon departure 14-hour TransPac flight out of California heading to Asia. 14 hours of daylight... and yes, I need the cabin to be completely dark at some point during the 14-hours of continuous sunlight. If your shade is up - you better bet I'm ringing my call button to mention it to the cabin crew.

Could you please explain to me why your desire for a dark room outweighs my desire to look out of the window. Apparently the 'window looker outers' are considered to have less rights than those who want to sleep.

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 69):
I'm sorry that a few people on here feel as if they buy a ticket for the view and not the transportation, but it is not the case. You are buying transportation

As are the people who want it dark, they buy transportation, not a dark room.

Quoting EK345 (Reply 95):
Most people want a comfortable (dark) cabin during hours 2-12 of a 14-hour flight.

Do you have any proof that 'most' people want it dark. On long flights, to me it feels dull, dingy, stuffy and I hate it, I'd rather see some natural light in the aircraft. If you're tired enough you'll sleep. I assume the people who want it dark have never ever had a nap during the day.
 
B737900ER
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RE: UA Forcing 787 Window "shades" To Be Blackened

Fri Sep 25, 2015 2:41 pm

Quoting ncfc99 (Reply 100):

Could you please explain to me why your desire for a dark room outweighs my desire to look out of the window. Apparently the 'window looker outers' are considered to have less rights than those who want to sleep.

Because your desire is outweighed by the desire of hundreds of others. Or 309 to be exact on my last flight to ICN. Every shade was down, the vast majority trying to sleep, and one person flooding the cabin with light. But I guess his desire to look at the vast expanse of nothingness was more important.
 
apfpilot
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RE: UA Forcing 787 Window "shades" To Be Blackened

Fri Sep 25, 2015 2:55 pm

Quoting B737900ER (Reply 101):
Or 309 to be exact on my last flight to ICN. Every shade was down, the vast majority trying to sleep, and one person flooding the cabin with light. But I guess his desire to look at the vast expanse of nothingness was more important.

Why aren't eyeshades an adequate solution? One who wants/needs to look out the window doesn't have a similar option.
Opinions are my own and do not reflect an endorsement or position of my employer.
 
B737900ER
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RE: UA Forcing 787 Window "shades" To Be Blackened

Fri Sep 25, 2015 2:59 pm

Quoting apfpilot (Reply 102):


Why aren't eyeshades an adequate solution? One who wants/needs to look out the window doesn't have a similar option.

Because not everyone brings eyeshades.

Asking someone for an act of selflessness all of the sudden means infringing on rights.
 
duncan16
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RE: UA Forcing 787 Window "shades" To Be Blackened

Fri Sep 25, 2015 3:38 pm

Quoting B747400ERF (Reply 13):
I have heard, however, that the 7810 and the 777X will have conventional blinds. Unfortunate.

Where did you hear this? Thanks in advance for your response.
 
duncan16
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RE: UA Forcing 787 Window "shades" To Be Blackened

Fri Sep 25, 2015 3:42 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 37):
Unfortunately the 77X will have the e-tint windows too.

That is not my understanding. Source please? Thanks.
 
apfpilot
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RE: UA Forcing 787 Window "shades" To Be Blackened

Fri Sep 25, 2015 5:05 pm

Quoting B737900ER (Reply 103):
Because not everyone brings eyeshades.

Asking someone for an act of selflessness all of the sudden means infringing on rights.

So because you didn't plan ahead someone has to change what they want?
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DarkSnowyNight
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RE: UA Forcing 787 Window "shades" To Be Blackened

Fri Sep 25, 2015 5:22 pm

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 69):

MOST PASSENGERS want them down most of the flight. It's rare to see pax actively looking out the windows for any length of time other than departure and arrival.

My experience (which isn't much for statistics since I only fly about 70-100 segments in an average year) suggests it's a lot more even than that. I've been on plenty of flights where they're almost all open and plenty the opposite. In any case...

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 69):

Everyone acts as if Boeing and Airbus created crew controlled blinds/shades/LCD dimming in a vacuum. It is obvious that airlines asked for this type of feature.

I don't think that's true. It's not being incorporated into other aircraft of similar range and capabilty, for one. And if airlines and OEMs really built/outfitted planes based on customer preferences they're really striking out on seat pitch and cross section these days.



Personally, I'm actually pretty conflicted on this issue. Like most of us here, I do love to look out the window. But on the other hand, I absolutely despise daylight and a dark cabin has a lot of appeal even when I'm not tired. I'll just say that I'm amazed how often this issue comes up.
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Polot
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RE: UA Forcing 787 Window "shades" To Be Blackened

Fri Sep 25, 2015 5:32 pm

Quoting DarkSnowyNight (Reply 107):
I don't think that's true. It's not being incorporated into other aircraft of similar range and capabilty, for one. And if airlines and OEMs really built/outfitted planes based on customer preferences they're really striking out on seat pitch and cross section these days.

Well there is only one aircraft that is of similar range and capability that is not more than 20 years old, the A350 (2 if you want to include the A380 in this discussion, but even then the basic design of that frame is starting to push 15+ years old). According to reply 35 the A350 also has the same capability of locking out the passengers, but not sure how true that is as the A350's windows do not get as much attention here or in the press.

Not sure what you mean by seat pitch and cross section. Boeing certainly designed the 787 cross section with customer input (it is no coincidence that the 787 can go 9 abreast without having to resort to charter airline width seats) as is Airbus (currently working to give 10 abreast seating as much room as possible per customer requests, and it is no coincidence that it can't currently easily fit 10 abreast because then it would have lost any hope of competing with the 788/789 market size wise pre A330neo launch). I'm not sure how any airframe manufacturer caters to seat pitch. Remember airlines are the customer here, not passengers.

[Edited 2015-09-25 10:34:59]

[Edited 2015-09-25 10:37:59]

[Edited 2015-09-25 10:44:07]
 
PacificBeach
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RE: UA Forcing 787 Window "shades" To Be Blackened

Fri Sep 25, 2015 6:34 pm

Quoting apfpilot (Reply 102):
Why aren't eyeshades an adequate solution? One who wants/needs to look out the window doesn't have a similar option.

Probably the same reason as when there is loud party in one of your neighbor's and you call the cops, the cops do not ask whether you thought about getting a noise cancellation headset or ear muffs.... One's pleasure against another's pain and misery.

I consider that windows like aisles, restrooms are common amenities in a aircraft, a means of public transportation. If someone gets to supervise the usage that would and should be the cabin crew.

It does not matter how much you paid, what is your status with the airline, etc. You paid for the seat and you got the seat. A person buying a last minute ticket and paying an outrageous amount stills gets the same seat and the same rights as well.

[Edited 2015-09-25 11:34:53]
 
apfpilot
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RE: UA Forcing 787 Window "shades" To Be Blackened

Fri Sep 25, 2015 6:42 pm

Quoting PacificBeach (Reply 109):
Probably the same reason as when there is loud party in one of your neighbor's and you call the cops, the cops do not ask whether you thought about getting a noise cancellation headset or ear muffs.... One's pleasure against another's pain and misery.

Come on man. There are noise ordinances that you are violating if your music is too loud. There are no regulations that say you have to shut your windows.
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Rdh3e
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RE: UA Forcing 787 Window "shades" To Be Blackened

Fri Sep 25, 2015 6:45 pm

Quoting apfpilot (Reply 110):
Come on man. There are noise ordinances that you are violating if your music is too loud. There are no regulations that say you have to shut your windows.

It's an apt comparison. Noise ordinances go into effect when people are trying to sleep. The same should be done with windowshades when people are trying to sleep.
 
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DarkSnowyNight
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RE: UA Forcing 787 Window "shades" To Be Blackened

Fri Sep 25, 2015 7:20 pm

Quoting Polot (Reply 108):
I'm not sure how any airframe manufacturer caters to seat pitch. Remember airlines are the customer here, not passengers.

Yes, that was the point I made. That OEMs do not cater to these preferences. I was listing other examples of same. The post I responded to seems to imply otherwise by saying "most passengers prefer this, so that's why the airlines order them that way." I don't believe that to be the case.

Quoting Polot (Reply 108):
According to reply 35 the A350 also has the same capability of locking out the passengers, but not sure how true that is as the A350's windows do not get as much attention here or in the press.



Does it? I'm pretty sure that's optional there (I'll have to look into that one) so it would be more of a case by case basis. The 77X won't have it, and the 380 & 748I won't have it backfitted. These also fly similar stage lengths and have the same day/night issues along those routes.
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PDX88
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RE: UA Forcing 787 Window "shades" To Be Blackened

Fri Sep 25, 2015 7:30 pm

Quoting AWACSooner (Reply 19):
If I paid to get a window seat, and I want to look out the window, then so be it.

And you're the reason the lock out system exists. Entitled much?

Reality check: You didn't buy the window, the person in the middle seat next to you paid just as much as you did for their flight.
 
4holer
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RE: UA Forcing 787 Window "shades" To Be Blackened

Fri Sep 25, 2015 7:38 pm

If darkness is very important to you, own and bring eyeshades. If you choose not to take that option, you forfeit the right to bitch about light. I can't see how it is more complicated than that. You need dark, an eyeshade makes it dark, so bring eyeshades.
Ghosts appear and fade away.....................
 
PDX88
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RE: UA Forcing 787 Window "shades" To Be Blackened

Fri Sep 25, 2015 7:59 pm

Quoting 4holer (Reply 114):
If darkness is very important to you, own and bring eyeshades. If you choose not to take that option, you forfeit the right to bitch about light. I can't see how it is more complicated than that. You need dark, an eyeshade makes it dark, so bring eyeshades.

Another example of "I'm the only person on this plane that matters" attitude. Holy cow.

Not everyone can sleep with eyeshades on. They irritate the crap out of me. I don't have any issues sleeping in light, but a lot of people do, so a dark cabin is a great passenger comfort feature. And those of you complaining about looking out the window obviously haven't flown on the 787 yet. At the dimmest setting, you can still see out just fine. Everyone benefits. If you really need more light (which you don't) walk to the galley and look out the window in one of the doors.
 
DCA-ROCguy
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RE: UA Forcing 787 Window "shades" To Be Blackened

Fri Sep 25, 2015 9:08 pm

Interesting discussion. I have not yet flown on a 787, so I have not yet experienced electronic-window-dimming feature.

That said, I don't want anyone forcing my window to be shaded during normal waking hours with daylight. I buy a window seat not simply to look out the window. I take photos out the window. During an overnight-hours flight, it is reasonable to darken windows, even if the plane is flying over the Arctic and it stays light outside. I typically sleep on such flights, but even if I didn't, I for one wouldn't object to shaded windows.

During a daylight-hours flight, when most passengers are likely to be awake, I have my window shade up so I can take photos, period. And I would very much find it poor customer service for cabin crew to force-dim everyone's windows at said time.

My .02. Don't like it? Sue me.

Jim
Need a new airline paint scheme? Better call Saul! (Bass that is)
 
BerenErchamion
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RE: UA Forcing 787 Window "shades" To Be Blackened

Fri Sep 25, 2015 11:19 pm

never mind, already addressed

[Edited 2015-09-25 16:20:57]
 
ThReaTeN
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RE: UA Forcing 787 Window "shades" To Be Blackened

Fri Sep 25, 2015 11:59 pm

Quoting ACDC8 (Reply 98):
Having said that, sometimes I really ask myself why some people here have even bothered to join an aviation enthusiasts website.

I almost laughed out loud reading this. It's a very good question indeed.
 
coolian2
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RE: UA Forcing 787 Window "shades" To Be Blackened

Sat Sep 26, 2015 12:03 am

Quoting apfpilot (Reply 110):
There are no regulations that say you have to shut your windows.

I guess obeying crew instructions is one
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BoeingGuy
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RE: UA Forcing 787 Window "shades" To Be Blackened

Sat Sep 26, 2015 12:35 am

CZ did this to me too YVR-CAN. The flight attendants can darken the tint and the passengers can't override it. It was a beautiful clear day over Alaska with incredible views of Denali and other sites. I could barely see them and couldn't take photos due to the windows being darkened. I was not happy at all. It was inappropriate.
 
B737900ER
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RE: UA Forcing 787 Window "shades" To Be Blackened

Sat Sep 26, 2015 12:41 am

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 120):

CZ did this to me too YVR-CAN. The flight attendants can darken the tint and the passengers can't override it. It was a beautiful clear day over Alaska with incredible views of Denali and other sites. I could barely see them and couldn't take photos due to the windows being darkened. I was not happy at all. It was inappropriate.


Once again I ask, if 90% of the people on the plane want it dark, than why is it so hard to comply with the wishes of the majority? Is it just because you feel it's your right? Is it so you can take 14 hours worth of pictures? What ever happened to self sacrifice?
 
BoeingGuy
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RE: UA Forcing 787 Window "shades" To Be Blackened

Sat Sep 26, 2015 12:59 am

Quoting B737900ER (Reply 121):

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 120):

CZ did this to me too YVR-CAN. The flight attendants can darken the tint and the passengers can't override it. It was a beautiful clear day over Alaska with incredible views of Denali and other sites. I could barely see them and couldn't take photos due to the windows being darkened. I was not happy at all. It was inappropriate.


Once again I ask, if 90% of the people on the plane want it dark, than why is it so hard to comply with the wishes of the majority? Is it just because you feel it's your right? Is it so you can take 14 hours worth of pictures? What ever happened to self sacrifice?

Uh no. But shouldn't I have the right to lighten my shade for a few minutes to get a photo and maybe enjoy the scenery? BTW, it was a daytime flight too.
 
EK345
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RE: UA Forcing 787 Window "shades" To Be Blackened

Sat Sep 26, 2015 1:24 am

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 122):
Uh no. But shouldn't I have the right to lighten my shade for a few minutes to get a photo and maybe enjoy the scenery? BTW, it was a daytime flight too.

Here's an idea: walk to the galley and take the picture from there.

Quoting ACDC8 (Reply 98):
Having said that, sometimes I really ask myself why some people here have even bothered to join an aviation enthusiasts website.

Keeping the window shade up during a 14-hour all-daylight flight all the sudden is a requirement to be considered an aviation enthusiast?? LOL!

EK345
"and miles to go before I sleep..."
 
Planesmart
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RE: UA Forcing 787 Window "shades" To Be Blackened

Sat Sep 26, 2015 1:26 am

Quoting PDX88 (Reply 115):
At the dimmest setting, you can still see out just fine.

The airline can alter the crew accessible range, and the crew can alter the passenger accessible range. You can't see out of the darkest setting if available, certainly not to the extent of an earlier photo used as an example. That might have been the darkest setting on THE flight, but that is not the darkest setting available.

Perhaps a Boeing employee with access to all the examples available, will post photos. Someone mentioned five. Think you will find that's the number of on board settings - a greater range from which to choose, but crew and customers only get to play with the five selected, unless the crew reduce or eliminate completely.

Call me a cynic, but as food, drink, toilet use, rubbish, crew demand and passenger issues reduce markedly with darkness, airlines and crews have the greatest interest keeping cabins dark for as long as possible.
 
rugger
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RE: UA Forcing 787 Window "shades" To Be Blackened

Sat Sep 26, 2015 1:51 am

Quoting B737900ER (Reply 121):
Once again I ask, if 90% of the people on the plane want it dark, than why is it so hard to comply with the wishes of the majority? Is it just because you feel it's your right? Is it so you can take 14 hours worth of pictures? What ever happened to self sacrifice?

What makes you think that 90% of the people on the plane want it dark? Did you take a seat by seat vote?

Quoting Planesmart (Reply 124):
Call me a cynic, but as food, drink, toilet use, rubbish, crew demand and passenger issues reduce markedly with darkness, airlines and crews have the greatest interest keeping cabins dark for as long as possible.

This has come up more than once in this thread... I think you are on to something here....
 
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757MDE
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RE: UA Forcing 787 Window "shades" To Be Blackened

Sat Sep 26, 2015 2:09 am

Quoting AM (Reply 87):

AeroMexico's crews (who absolutely have to rank among the people who hate their jobs the most in the world, according to my experience) do the same thing, giving no window control to passengers.

I flew MEX-JFK with AM on their 787 and I had full control over the window during the whole flight. It would be a bad thing if I just got a lucky exception.

Same thing on an ANA domestic flight within Japan... had full control all the time.

Quoting ACDC8 (Reply 63):
What makes you think your right for a dark cabin is more important than those who want to enjoy the splendor of soaring above the clouds and enjoy as much of it as possible? Its an airplane, not a hotel.

Damn right.

Quoting ACDC8 (Reply 98):
Which I simply push back up.

I have found that when I am flying on a "classic shades" Airplane, if I lower the shade halfway or so it does not let most light that bothers others in, while I still have a way to take pictures and take a peek every now and then.

When I first saw the 787 window system the first thing that came to my mind was this. As somebody said, depriving people of some of the most beautiful views that can be had just because someone is too lazy to use a mask is simply inappropriate.

[Edited 2015-09-25 19:15:31]
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PDX88
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RE: UA Forcing 787 Window "shades" To Be Blackened

Sat Sep 26, 2015 2:39 am

Quoting Rugger (Reply 125):
What makes you think that 90% of the people on the plane want it dark? Did you take a seat by seat vote?

I'd say it's more like 99%. Who doesn't want to sleep on a 12 hour flight before they land in Tokyo at 6am?
 
Max Q
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RE: UA Forcing 787 Window "shades" To Be Blackened

Sat Sep 26, 2015 3:47 am

Maybe we need a separate windowless cabin for those who like to stay in the dark..
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edgaren
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RE: UA Forcing 787 Window "shades" To Be Blackened

Sat Sep 26, 2015 3:51 am

Quoting modernart (Reply 44):
Remember the good ol' days when the flight crew would say something like "those of you on the left side aircraft should have a pretty good view of the Grand Canyon momentarily"? Many aisle folks would pop up and peer over the neighbors, etc. The wonderment is gone, buried in our electronic devices

Believe it or not last year while on a super80 flight DFW-SAN on (yeah you guess it) AA, we had the captain announced we were overflying The Grand Canyon and he gave a brief description of it and stuff, anyway I was the only one glued to the window trying to catch a glimpse of it while everybody else´s attention was on their electronic devices, the passenger sitting next to me gave me this weird look like I was from a different planet.
 
PDX88
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RE: UA Forcing 787 Window "shades" To Be Blackened

Sat Sep 26, 2015 4:16 am

Quoting Max Q (Reply 128):
Maybe we need a separate windowless cabin for those who like to stay in the dark..

Nobody's talking about blacking out the cabin the entire flight. There's a solid 4-5 hours during takeoff, meal services, and landing that the windows won't be locked. But the other 6, there's nothing to see but water. Why can't the cabin be dark for a few hours so people can sleep?

And I'm a window seat guy every flight, I love looking out the window and seeing the world. But I also like to land in Europe or Asia with a couple hours of sleep, which can be impossible sometimes when there's one or two oblivious people who like to play peekaboo with the shades all flight long and wake everyone up.
 
ikramerica
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RE: UA Forcing 787 Window "shades" To Be Blackened

Sat Sep 26, 2015 4:34 am

The feature was put in as a solution to a problem. Non-compliant passengers. The airlines want the plane dark. People sleep more, complain less. It's easier on the crew.

Quoting modernart (Reply 44):

Yes the good ol days. When there were movie screens in the front of each cabin and showed 3 movies in a row on long haul flights and...

THE CREW ASKED YOU TO CLOSE YOUR SHADES THE WHOLE TIME.

The difference was that people used to be courteous. They complied. And when the two or three movies were over (depending on flight length) the crew would start serving breakfast and shades could go up.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
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TheRedBaron
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RE: UA Forcing 787 Window "shades" To Be Blackened

Sat Sep 26, 2015 4:41 am

Quoting DCA-ROCguy (Reply 116):
During a daylight-hours flight, when most passengers are likely to be awake, I have my window shade up so I can take photos, period. And I would very much find it poor customer service for cabin crew to force-dim everyone's windows at said time.

My .02. Don't like it? Sue me.

Agree 100%. Flying is a wonderful experience... I specially like turbulence while going through clouds, if I don't see outside and just have chops, it gets me angry...

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 120):
The flight attendants can darken the tint and the passengers can't override it. It was a beautiful clear day over Alaska with incredible views of Denali and other sites. I could barely see them and couldn't take photos due to the windows being darkened. I was not happy at all. It was inappropriate.

Once I was flying YYZ to MEX an the late afternoon and over the middle of the USA and there were huge storm cells and lightning everywhere, very cool pics I took...

Quoting B737900ER (Reply 121):
Is it so you can take 14 hours worth of pictures?

or sleep soundly for 14 straight hours? give me a break...

Quoting EK345 (Reply 123):
Here's an idea: walk to the galley and take the picture from there.

A lot of FA don't like or see in a good way people standing in their "turf" or going anywhere near doors and galleys... specially if taking photos for straight 14 hours !!!  
Quoting Planesmart (Reply 124):
Call me a cynic, but as food, drink, toilet use, rubbish, crew demand and passenger issues reduce markedly with darkness, airlines and crews have the greatest interest keeping cabins dark for as long as possible.

The Am flight to LAX from MEX is a fine example, it flies early and they dimm the cabin, for a 3.5 hour flight with service, but I get the crew want everyone sleep and get over the horrible prospect of working...

Quoting Rugger (Reply 125):
What makes you think that 90% of the people on the plane want it dark? Did you take a seat by seat vote?

Yes, its a proven fact at Railroads.net that 90% of passengers want a dark cabin and haven't discovered eye shades yet...

Quoting PDX88 (Reply 127):
I'd say it's more like 99%. Who doesn't want to sleep on a 12 hour flight before they land in Tokyo at 6am?

The aurora Borealis is often seen on those flights in late autumn and winter, but now I know why 99% of the people haven seen it...

Quoting Max Q (Reply 128):
Maybe we need a separate windowless cabin for those who like to stay in the dark..

That would be a novel idea ! and to think that some people lambasted some aircraft types like the 757, the Md83 and the A340 for having seat rows without any window....

This is an aviation enthusiast web site and guess some here really hate to fly, they just need transportation.

TRB
The best seat in a Plane is the Jumpseat.
 
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Ncfc99
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RE: UA Forcing 787 Window "shades" To Be Blackened

Sat Sep 26, 2015 8:08 am

Quoting B737900ER (Reply 101):

Quoting ncfc99 (Reply 100):

Could you please explain to me why your desire for a dark room outweighs my desire to look out of the window. Apparently the 'window looker outers' are considered to have less rights than those who want to sleep.

Because your desire is outweighed by the desire of hundreds of others. Or 309 to be exact on my last flight to ICN. Every shade was down, the vast majority trying to sleep, and one person flooding the cabin with light. But I guess his desire to look at the vast expanse of nothingness was more important.

Of course, all 309 other people wanted to sleep, all 309 people needed a dark cabin to sleep because they all cannot sleep during daylight, all 309 people stupidly forgot to bring their eyeshades or simply can't use them as they are such an annoyance. Each and every passenger was asked and wanted to sleep.

Quoting B737900ER (Reply 103):
Because not everyone brings eyeshades.

As said above, you're failure to plan ahead stops me doing what I want to do, and I'm considered the selfish one?????!!!!!!   

Quoting PDX88 (Reply 115):
ot everyone can sleep with eyeshades on

Not everyone enjoys a dark cabin. On a VS flight HKG-LHR we had to endure a dark cabin for most of the 14 hour flight, every now and then a guy in a window seat lifted his shade to look out, it made the cabin that much brighter and airier and for those few seconds it was lovely. The rest of the flight I felt awful in the dark dingy cabin. But don't let that worry the selfish people who insist on darkness, those others can take a running jump........

Quoting PDX88 (Reply 115):
They irritate the crap out of me.

As I said above, a dark dingy cabin makes me feel uncomfortable and irritable, but i've got to put up with it because eye shades irritate you. 
Quoting PDX88 (Reply 115):
so a dark cabin is a great passenger comfort feature.

Again, see above

It seems your opinion has to outweigh that of others, we maybe in the minority wanting natural light in a cabin but to call us sellfish when all you're intrested in is what you want is at best hypocritical.

Quoting B737900ER (Reply 121):
What ever happened to self sacrifice?



Let the people who don't agree with you make the sacrifice.  
 
AWACSooner
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RE: UA Forcing 787 Window "shades" To Be Blackened

Sat Sep 26, 2015 9:34 am

Quoting Max Q (Reply 128):

Maybe we need a separate windowless cabin for those who like to stay in the dark..

These folks are welcome to join the military and fly on all our wonderful cargo fleet...lots of windowless airplanes!

In the meantime, if I want to open the window shade, and it's not a safety hazard, I should be able to...obviously, I will try to be courteous to the pax nearby, but I got that window seat for a reason. If you have to have it completely dark, please buy some eye-shades.
 
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pvjin
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RE: UA Forcing 787 Window "shades" To Be Blackened

Sat Sep 26, 2015 9:41 am

Quoting AWACSooner (Reply 134):
In the meantime, if I want to open the window shade, and it's not a safety hazard, I should be able to...obviously, I will try to be courteous to the pax nearby, but I got that window seat for a reason. If you have to have it completely dark, please buy some eye-shades.

Exactly. Personally I can't really sleep properly in an airplane eye shades or not, thus even on a long haul flight whenever there's enough light outside I'll be mostly observing the ground below (unless flying over an Ocean).

If some airline prevents me from controlling the shades I'll make sure to avoid that airline in the future.

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 131):
The feature was put in as a solution to a problem. Non-compliant passengers. The airlines want the plane dark. People sleep more, complain less. It's easier on the crew.

Why not remove the windows completely then? Perhaps also feed the pax with sleeping pills, then they don't need service at all!
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that." - Martin Luther King Jr
 
ikramerica
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RE: UA Forcing 787 Window "shades" To Be Blackened

Sat Sep 26, 2015 2:34 pm

Quoting ncfc99 (Reply 133):
As said above, you're failure to plan ahead stops me doing what I want to do, and I'm considered the selfish one?????!!!!!!  

Yes. Saying "you should have thought of that" to 300 people so that you, one person, can do something you want to do is the definition of selfishness.

You should also be able to play music from your phone without headphones, as the other pax should all wear earplugs. You should also purposely pass gas as much as possible as other people should have worn nose clips.

Personally, I can't wear eyeshades. My eyelashes scrape against them and I can't stand them for more than a few minutes. I'm not alone in this. So lets call that a "disability" and then I'm the one who should be accommodated even if you have to sacrifice...
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
B737900ER
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RE: UA Forcing 787 Window "shades" To Be Blackened

Sat Sep 26, 2015 2:43 pm

Quoting ncfc99 (Reply 133):


Of course, all 309 other people wanted to sleep, all 309 people needed a dark cabin to sleep because they all cannot sleep during daylight, all 309 people stupidly forgot to bring their eyeshades or simply can't use them as they are such an annoyance. Each and every passenger was asked and wanted to sleep.

Since literally every single window shade except for one was closed on a 747 I'd say yes, the overwhelming majority wanted it dark. Maybe not to sleep, but maybe they wanted to watch a movie, maybe most find a dark cabin more cozy and therefore more comfortable. But for whatever reason they wanted it dark
 
PDX88
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RE: UA Forcing 787 Window "shades" To Be Blackened

Sat Sep 26, 2015 2:48 pm

Quoting ncfc99 (Reply 133):
Of course, all 309 other people wanted to sleep, all 309 people needed a dark cabin to sleep because they all cannot sleep during daylight, all 309 people stupidly forgot to bring their eyeshades or simply can't use them as they are such an annoyance. Each and every passenger was asked and wanted to sleep.

If 309 people prefer a cabin a specific way, then it should be that way.

Quoting ncfc99 (Reply 133):
As said above, you're failure to plan ahead stops me doing what I want to do, and I'm considered the selfish one?????!!!!!!   

[sel-fish] adjective
1. devoted to or caring only for oneself; concerned primarily with one's own interests, benefits, welfare, etc., regardless of others.

You getting upset at everyone else for not planning for you to be a nuisance fits the definition perfectly.

Again, for the 3rd time, I'll point out that the windows are only locked out for a few hours of the flight, specifically on flights where 80-90% of the flight is daylight and passengers are wanting to get a little sleep. You don't have to look out the window all 14 hours. You get 6-8 hours of full window viewing pleasure. Stop acting selfish and let those that want to sleep have a dark cabin for a couple hours. The 787 still lets you look out the window anyways at it's darkest setting, so I don't know what the butthurt is all about.

Quoting ncfc99 (Reply 133):
As I said above, a dark dingy cabin makes me feel uncomfortable and irritable, but i've got to put up with it because eye shades irritate you.

But I've got to put up with a bright cabin with your shade being open all 14 hours because a dark cabin irritates you? See how your argument only benefits you?

I'm mostly on your side. I get a window seat every time I fly. I love to look out the window same as you. But there's a time on longhaul flights to shut the shades and let everyone sleep. If I'm still wide awake and I want to check out what's below me, I walk up to the galley and peer out the door. It's not that complicated. I for sure don't open my own shade and wake the whole flight up, and I for sure hate it when someone doesn't have the common sense to know better not to do the same. That's why the lock out is such a great feature.

Quoting ncfc99 (Reply 133):
we maybe in the minority wanting natural light in a cabin but to call us sellfish when all you're intrested in is what you want is at best hypocritical.

And hopefully it's the last time I have to mention it in this thread, you still get 6-8 hours of natural light. The windows are only locked out for a few hours. Why can't everyone get what they want for half the flight? It's called compromise.

Geez, don't ever take a redeye flight. It's dark outside!
 
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Ncfc99
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RE: UA Forcing 787 Window "shades" To Be Blackened

Sat Sep 26, 2015 8:40 pm

Quoting PDX88 (Reply 138):
If 309 people prefer a cabin a specific way, then it should be that way.
Quoting ikramerica (Reply 136):
one person
Quoting B737900ER (Reply 137):
the overwhelming majority wanted it dark

I would wager that the majority wouldn't care one way or the other, and I'm yet to see any evidence that the majority want a dark cabin. To say all 309 people wanted the cabin a specific way because thats what happened isn't proof that that is the case. I'd say 100 want it dark, 150 don't care and 50 (the ones in window seats) would like the shades open. In my own experience, which is what I am basing my opinion on, I'd prefer some natural light in the cabin even when sitting in the 4 of a 2-4-2 seat layout, and if I wanted to sleep, I wouldn't ask the FA's to shut the shades.

Quoting PDX88 (Reply 138):
The windows are only locked out for a few hours. Why can't everyone get what they want for half the flight? It's called compromise.

I've assumed for the OP(maybe wrongly) that the shades where shut for the whole flight. I can agree and that a good compromise would be shades closed/open for half the flight each. I'm mainly responding to the posts that insist shades shut with no compromise to be considered. I'm a reasonable person that is prepared to compromise, but I do not like to be told that if I don't agree with what you want that I am selfish.
 
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RE: UA Forcing 787 Window "shades" To Be Blackened

Sat Sep 26, 2015 8:46 pm

Quoting AWACSooner (Reply 134):
These folks are welcome to join the military and fly on all our wonderful cargo fleet...lots of windowless airplanes!

Good idea !

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 131):
The feature was put in as a solution to a problem. Non-compliant passengers. The airlines want the plane dark. People sleep more, complain less. It's easier on the crew.

Yes, the f/a's want the passengers to sleep all the time and be 'compliant' so they can ignore them.


The 'airlines' don't want the plane dark believe me, they would prefer to have happy passengers if they have a choice, you might want to remember they pay your salary.
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


GGg
 
32andBelow
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RE: UA Forcing 787 Window "shades" To Be Blackened

Sat Sep 26, 2015 8:55 pm

Quoting Max Q (Reply 140):
The 'airlines' don't want the plane dark believe me, they would prefer to have happy passengers if they have a choice, you might want to remember they pay your salary.

Not just happy passengers, but ones who are potentially BUYING stuff.
 
braniff722
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RE: UA Forcing 787 Window "shades" To Be Blackened

Sat Sep 26, 2015 9:32 pm

Quoting TheRedBaron (Reply 43):
Yet again the 787 dim windows, thread comes along ...

If you like looking outside, avoid the 787
If you like to see outside on your WINDOW seat buy a dozen eye masks and give them away to complaining pax that like to sleep while avoiding the incredible views outside.

End of thread. LOL

Give it time. Someone will eventually start a, "When is Northwest going to retire their 787's", thread.      
Living large in KSHV
 
B737900ER
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RE: UA Forcing 787 Window "shades" To Be Blackened

Sat Sep 26, 2015 9:58 pm

Quoting ncfc99 (Reply 139):
I'd say 100 want it dark, 150 don't care and 50 (the ones in window seats) would like the shades open.

Ok, maybe I'm not being too clear. EVERYONE in the window seat with the exception of one person on that flight had the window shades CLOSED. Why you insist people in the window want the shade open is beyond me. On most of the TPAC and TALT flights I take ALL of the shades are closed. It's not about flight attendant workload, or sleeping, most people find a darkened cabin cozy. I guess this is a strange concept to comprehend for some here. But it's standard practice across airlines to shut to window shades on long haul flights. Why? Because the majority like it that way.
 
ikramerica
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RE: UA Forcing 787 Window "shades" To Be Blackened

Sun Sep 27, 2015 12:38 am

Quoting ncfc99 (Reply 139):
I would wager that the majority wouldn't care one way or the other

How much? I mean, the vast majority of people have the shades down on longhaul when the sun is out, and many do so on medium haul as well, without being asked.

What gets me is that I like to look out too. But short flights are more for that. Long flights, it gets old to look out. You are often over water with little to see. Not always mind you, but often. Or the clouds are blocking your view. And if I want to check out the view, I go to the galley or exits and look out the window. Lets me stretch my legs, good for prevention of DVT anyway.

Quoting Max Q (Reply 140):
The 'airlines' don't want the plane dark believe me, they would prefer to have happy passengers if they have a choice, you might want to remember they pay your salary.

I'm not an airline employee. So the airlines nor the passengers pay my salary in any way.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
gogojet
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RE: UA Forcing 787 Window "shades" To Be Blackened

Sun Sep 27, 2015 1:25 pm

Wow, a lot of strong opinions, with the truth of the matter, being somewhat stretched in many cases.

A look at the Airliners.net photo database does enable one to make some interesting observations.


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Andrew Hunt
View Large View Medium
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Photo © Simon van der Burg


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Allen Zhao
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Jerry Pang - AHKGAP


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Andre Giam



It would seem that many of the people on the flights shown, do enjoy looking out of the window, or having the window shade open during the flight. In fact, from my own experience, which obviously differs, from others on this forum, I have generally found flying, east to west, that most people on the sunny side, will close their blinds, and those on the shaded side, will leave their blinds open. I have never heard of any commotion because somebody has left a blind open during a flight. Flying West to East on an overnight flight is a different story.

It is fortunate that the centralised control of the window shades, has been left on the 787, and has not propagated through to any of Boeing's other jets. A careful choice of airline, and plane type, should enable those who wish to remain connected with the planet they live on, to enjoy the million dollar views, that our forefathers could only have dreamt of.

Back to the original, post which started this off. Yes the SW of America is spectacular country, and it is unfortunate that you were unable to enjoy the ride because of the 787's centralised window shade control system. I guess next time you know not to catch a 787  

Finally, for those who like to look out the window, a great reason to:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=LCauqUoQy-w
 
Gr8Circle
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RE: UA Forcing 787 Window "shades" To Be Blackened

Sun Sep 27, 2015 3:38 pm

I flew on the BA 787 last year, from YYZ to LHR and while landing at LHR the window kept darkening all the time...I had to continuously keep lightening it every 2 minutes....very, very annoying......don't know if it was just a one-off incident....
 
enzedder
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RE: UA Forcing 787 Window "shades" To Be Blackened

Sun Sep 27, 2015 8:51 pm

at the end of the day it is up to the crew to decide if window shades need to be down or not and EVERYONE shd follow their instructions.

and airlines wouldnt insist on the shades down (on long distance) if too many passengers were going to complain about this. so i assume that a mayority of people prefer it that way or dont care. not a fact but common sense i guess. airlines might have numbers on that.

even if the purpose is only to make it easier on the crew. that is a good enough argument.

some people here act like spoilt and selfish little kids. you might pay more to pick a seat next to a window. but it doesnt give you contol over the window. it just entitles you to sit next to it. end of story.

i also luv to look out of a window. especially at airports while taxiing. and i heard once somewhere that during take off and landing window shades need to be up for safety reasons (i might be wrong about this). enjoy the view while it lasts!

happy flying and cheers

enzedder

[Edited 2015-09-27 14:13:41]
 
arffguy
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RE: UA Forcing 787 Window "shades" To Be Blackened

Sun Sep 27, 2015 8:55 pm

Part of the problem is that flight crews and frequent flyers are bored with aviation and take it for granted. Someone who has never flown or only gets that "once in a lifetime" chance to fly a certain route gets robbed of the view.

That video that Gogojet just linked to has some impressive views.

Our ancestors would have given their left nuts to get this view and we intentionally shut it out.

And just because it is dark outside doesn't mean there is nothing to see. (city lights, airports lit up and other air traffic.)
Time to spare, go by air.
 
CXB77L
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RE: UA Forcing 787 Window "shades" To Be Blackened

Mon Sep 28, 2015 10:44 am

Quoting csturdiv (Reply 90):
Yes, because a dimmed window shade on a B787 is soooooooo hard to look out of. I mean look at this picture. I couldn't even see the wing or the clouds......oh wait.

That isn't the darkest setting. When I flew on the 787-9, the darkest setting I could get it to looked something like this:

http://i1207.photobucket.com/albums/bb465/CXB77L/IMG_3530_zpss3ywfeug.jpg

So while you can still see out, it is significantly darker and everything has a blu-ish tinge. That being said, it's still better than solid window shades through which passengers can see nothing at all.

I think the electrochromatic technology on the 787's windows are fantastic, and a marked improvement over traditional window shades (personally, I don't think planes should have window shades at all, but that's another story). For those like me that want to look outside, I think it's a good compromise. The drawback, however, is that if the crew has locked the windows at the darkest setting, it is not possible to see outside at night. I tried setting the window to the darkest setting during an overnight flight on the 787, and I couldn't even see the strobe lights, let alone the wings, engine, and stars.

Quoting ACDC8 (Reply 98):
Having said that, sometimes I really ask myself why some people here have even bothered to join an aviation enthusiasts website. Its quite a sad thing that in todays cattle class car world of aviation, some would still like to take the last bit of enjoyment away from some who still have a passion for air travel just so they can watch TV or sleep.

  

Totally agreed. One of the rare joys of flying is being able to see the earth from above the clouds. Even if it's a long trans-Pacific or trans-Atlantic flight, there are still sights to see - cloud formations, ships, islands, the curvature of the earth, the wings and engines, and, at night, the stars, and the moon. I can never sleep on planes partly because there's so much going on outside that I don't want to miss. Why watch a movie when you can do that just as easily on the ground?

Quoting Planesmart (Reply 124):
The airline can alter the crew accessible range, and the crew can alter the passenger accessible range. You can't see out of the darkest setting if available, certainly not to the extent of an earlier photo used as an example. That might have been the darkest setting on THE flight, but that is not the darkest setting available.

Ah, that's news to me. I thought that there was only five settings, rather than multiple settings with 5 accessible ones. Still, a.netter tdscanuck has previously advised that even at the darkest possible setting, it is still possible to see outside.

Quoting ncfc99 (Reply 133):
It seems your opinion has to outweigh that of others, we maybe in the minority wanting natural light in a cabin but to call us sellfish when all you're intrested in is what you want is at best hypocritical.

  

Quoting PDX88 (Reply 138):
But I've got to put up with a bright cabin with your shade being open all 14 hours because a dark cabin irritates you? See how your argument only benefits you?

No, it benefits those who want to look outside and/or those who want a bright cabin. I think it is a bit rich calling people who want the windows open 'selfish' when those who want a dark cabin are also being 'selfish', because they want their needs (or more precisely, wants) to the detriment of others. Both sides are being hypocritical when calling the other selfish. The only fair solution I see is for the cabin crew to not enforce a window shade policy at all, and hand out eyeshades for those who want to sleep.

Quoting arffguy (Reply 148):
And just because it is dark outside doesn't mean there is nothing to see. (city lights, airports lit up and other air traffic.)

  
Boeing 777 fanboy

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