Did DL Make AA A Better Airline By Having DFW Hub?

afcjets · Fri Sep 25, 2015 11:36 pm

Obviously Delta eliminating DFW as a hub was good for AA, but I think perhaps part of the reason AA had better customer satisfaction rankings in the past is because they had a large competitor with high rankings at their largest hub. The same cannot be said for their second largest hub at ORD, and the NYC and LAX markets are too split between too many carriers for the impact to be as great. Back in the early 90s I remember signs all over DFW and AA billboards that read "Based Here, Best Here" and I think it was a great marketing campaign.

[Edited 2015-09-25 16:38:06]

mayor · Sat Sep 26, 2015 5:21 am

Not sure about your theory, but it's certainly possible.

I do have some ancedotal information regarding DFW that might be interesting. This is not the rantings of a DL fanboy as you would probably assume, but just something that I heard from people that worked for DL in DFW, back in the 90s.

At that time, AA controlled all a/c movements on the ground at DFW, AA & DL. At ORD, DL did the same for at least some of AA's "K" concourse gates and of course, DL's "L" concourse gates.

Now, to what I heard.........AA would deliberately control AA's & DL's a/c movements on the ground to AA's advantage and DL's disadvantage. I never heard of DL doing the same at ORD, but I guess it could have happened.

AAR90 · Sat Sep 26, 2015 8:48 am

Quoting mayor (Reply 1):
just something that I heard from people that worked for DL in DFW, back in the 90s.

You will hear similar stories from just about any airport where one airline controls at least a portion of the ramp area used by another airline. In the vast majority of cases the stories are "biased" at best and a down right fabrication at worst. The ramp controllers are trying their best to move the most aircraft in the most efficient manner possible.

At DFW specifically; AA has never controlled the (formerly DL's) Terminal-E ramp area... ever!
The "people" who told you the story do not know the facts or are fabricating another fantasy.

At ORD specifically; DL controlled the L-concourse ramp (both sides) and while it might appear there was some airline-based bias in operations, the reality was the DL Ramp Controllers operated under First Come/First Served basis. AA now controls that ramp area and surprise.... does exactly the same thing with the numerous other airlines using L.... First Come/First Served with a bias to move the most amount of planes in the most efficient manner possible.

mayor · Sat Sep 26, 2015 3:38 pm

Quoting AAR90 (Reply 2):
At ORD specifically; DL controlled the L-concourse ramp (both sides) and while it might appear there was some airline-based bias in operations, the reality was the DL Ramp Controllers operated under First Come/First Served basis. AA now controls that ramp area and surprise.... does exactly the same thing with the numerous other airlines using L.... First Come/First Served with a bias to move the most amount of planes in the most efficient manner possible.

I think they may have controlled the west side of "K" concourse, also.

As I said before, this is what I heard from DL employees I knew, that worked at DFW.

ckfred · Sat Sep 26, 2015 6:24 pm

Do airlines that dominate an airport "control" ramps to the detriment of others? I don't know. But, it's happened more than once that I've been on an AA aircraft ready to push back from T, when a string of DL aircraft come taxiing down the alley, causing the AA jet to sit.

slcdeltarumd11 · Sat Sep 26, 2015 7:00 pm

sure Delta made DFW sweeter when they didnt need to share the hub with anyone. Any airline that leaves a dual hub makes it better for the other carrier.

Delta had to do what was best for them. They couldnt keep DFW hub just to limit AA. The airport might have just built a new terminal for AA so DL staying wouldnt have mattered you dont know how history would have stayed. DL decided to cut DFW and their best resources were to strengthen the other hubs. Money better spent then flying DFW to limit AA.

AAR90 · Sat Sep 26, 2015 8:32 pm

Quoting mayor (Reply 3):
I think they may have controlled the west side of "K" concourse, also.

The west side of K is "the Y" which has been exclusively AA for the 28+ years I have been doing ORD flying. The south side of "L" {"Kilo Alley"} was under DL's control when I was first hired, but as AA spread into the "low L" gates and DL retreated from ORD, AA assumed ramp control duties for both sides of L concourse many years ago.

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 5):
Delta had to do what was best for them. They couldnt keep DFW hub just to limit AA. The airport might have just built a new terminal for AA so DL staying wouldnt have mattered you dont know how history would have stayed. DL decided to cut DFW and their best resources were to strengthen the other hubs. Money better spent then flying DFW to limit AA.

No descent airline management spends money in order to "limit" a competitor. They spend money to earn more money. In 1986 DL and AA were essentially DFW equals with 33% and 35% of traffic respectively. Both competed aggressively for DFW market share and by 1992 DL had slipped to 27% while AA had grown to 68%. DL's closure of their DFW hub was a foregone conclusion.

afcjets · Sat Sep 26, 2015 9:06 pm

Quoting AAR90 (Reply 6):
No descent airline management spends money in order to "limit" a competitor

There are a lot of examples that demonstrate otherwise. AS expands SLC to try and get DL to stop expanding at their SEA hub (it didn't work though). American Airlines reconfigured F100s into all business class with 56 seats and launched flights from Love Field to LAX, LGA, and ORD to stop Legend Airlines in 2000. US Air reconfigured 732s with a new product called Business Select with convertible coach/economy seats for the first 9 rows in response to WN first entering the East Coast with markets like BWI-CHI and BWI-CLE (didn't work either). It is not at all uncommon when an airline's home turf is invaded, an airline spends a lot of money and dumps lot of capacity to stop the new competitor. Not to mention when it was an LCC the airline would drop fares that often resulted in losses so the new airline would lose money too and retreat.

[Edited 2015-09-26 14:09:24]

pu · Sat Sep 26, 2015 10:18 pm

Quoting AAR90 (Reply 6):
No descent airline management spends money in order to "limit" a competitor

AA spent a boatload of money & effort keeping DAL locked down for as long as possible to limit WN and protect DFW.

Pu.

superjeff · Sun Sep 27, 2015 2:27 am

DFW was a different situation. From 1974 when the airport opened, until 1982, Braniff was the largest carrier. American was number two and Delta number three. When Braniff shut down in May, 1982, there was a vacuum, and both American and Delta took maximum advantage of it. AA became number 1, and DL number 2 (other airlines added additional and other service, including United, which didn't serve DFW until the BN shutdown.

Many believe that AA did things to hurt Braniff in the end, like landing on the West side of the airport runways to cause Braniff to burn more fuel, etc., but that was not AA controlling the ramps. Businesses do a lot of things to succeed, but the DFW battle between AA and DL was basically the result of Braniff's bankruptcy.

mayor · Sun Sep 27, 2015 2:53 am

Quoting AAR90 (Reply 6):

The west side of K is "the Y" which has been exclusively AA for the 28+ years I have been doing ORD flying. The south side of "L" {"Kilo Alley"} was under DL's control when I was first hired, but as AA spread into the "low L" gates and DL retreated from ORD, AA assumed ramp control duties for both sides of L concourse many years ago.

I worked there for 8 1/2 years when we had gates 6, 8, 10 & 11 in the "H" concourse. I think you misunderstand......while the west side of "K" may have been AA's gates, when I said DL was in control, I meant in terms of the ramp tower, when "L" concourse was still open. I understood from DL people at ORD that it was DL's responsibility to assume ramp control of that side of "K", strictly in terms of movement on the ramp.

Quoting AAR90 (Reply 6):
No descent airline management spends money in order to "limit" a competitor. They spend money to earn more money. In 1986 DL and AA were essentially DFW equals with 33% and 35% of traffic respectively. Both competed aggressively for DFW market share and by 1992 DL had slipped to 27% while AA had grown to 68%. DL's closure of their DFW hub was a foregone conclusion.

DL told us at SLC that it was a choice at the time between closing downsizing SLC or downsizing DFW. Since SLC proved more economical to operate, comparted to DFW, they didn't have a chance.

lightsaber · Sun Sep 27, 2015 3:08 am

Once upon a time my most common hubbing was on DL at DFW.

Closing DFW allowed DL to strengthen ATL to the point it became super competitive.

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 5):
DL decided to cut DFW and their best resources were to strengthen the other hubs. Money better spent then flying DFW to limit AA.

By concentrating their other hubs, DL offered more connections and thrived. DL is still in the process of rationalizing hubs.

Quoting superjeff (Reply 9):
From 1974 when the airport opened, until 1982, Braniff was the largest carrier. American was number two and Delta number three. When Braniff shut down in May, 1982, there was a vacuum, and both American and Delta took maximum advantage of it. AA became number 1, and DL number 2 (other airlines added additional and other service, including United, which didn't serve DFW until the BN shutdown.

I know more than a few who missed Braniff. The reality is AA did more to fill that vacuum and continued to grow until DL just wasn't viable at DFW at the scale needed to operate a hub there. I flew into DFW for years before the de-hubbing when passengers would openly talk about if DL would de-hub DFW. (The fares were often really good.)

Deregulation took out several airlines including Braniff. Cest la vie.

Lightsaber

AAR90 · Sun Sep 27, 2015 8:12 am

Quoting afcjets (Reply 7):
There are a lot of examples that demonstrate otherwise.

I suspect we have a difference in semantics. In the end the objective is to win greater marketshare or to protect the marketshare one already has. There is a (often subtle) difference.

Quoting pu (Reply 8):
AA spent a boatload of money & effort keeping DAL locked down for as long as possible to limit WN and protect DFW.

The DAL issue is both long and complex and if one has not studied it in detail with an understanding of the even longer and more complex geo-political Dallas vs Ft. Worth vs (essentially) everybody else in the metroplex situation then one will never begin to comprehend what is really going on in the metroplex political world.

Quoting mayor (Reply 10):
I worked there for 8 1/2 years when we had gates 6, 8, 10 & 11 in the "H" concourse. I think you misunderstand......while the west side of "K" may have been AA's gates, when I said DL was in control, I meant in terms of the ramp tower, when "L" concourse was still open. I understood from DL people at ORD that it was DL's responsibility to assume ramp control of that side of "K", strictly in terms of movement on the ramp.

Perhaps we should start with a common understanding of the Terminal-3 layout at ORD. From EAST to WEST the concourses are: L, K, H, and G. "west side of K" is the "Y" area between H and K concourses. Those have ALWAYS been under AA Ramp Control since at least 1986. I do not recall a time in those 28 years when DL was ever in the H concourse. I do recall DL being in the L concourse (that would be EAST of the K concourse) and "DL Ramp" having control of the ramp area between K and L.

Quoting mayor (Reply 10):
I worked there for 8 1/2 years when we had gates 6, 8, 10 & 11 in the "H" concourse

H concourse even gates are the WEST side of the H concourse (opposite the G concourse) while H-11 has always (last 28+ years) been inside the Y (and never a DL gate). I believe you are confusing the name of the L concourse. DL was always in the L concourse (except for NW merger period).

Quoting mayor (Reply 10):
DL told us at SLC that it was a choice at the time between closing downsizing SLC or downsizing DFW. Since SLC proved more economical to operate, comparted to DFW, they didn't have a chance.

What they told their DFW folks was that DL had to choose between a very expensive "effort" to "save" the DFW hub or spend much less building up both SLC and CVG where there was a "much less competitive situation." 20/20 hindsight says DL waited a bit too long as the writing was on-the-wall for a number of years... DL was losing to AA at DFW.

par13del · Sun Sep 27, 2015 12:49 pm

Quoting superjeff (Reply 9):
From 1974 when the airport opened, until 1982, Braniff was the largest carrier. American was number two and Delta number three. When Braniff shut down in May, 1982,

Quoting superjeff (Reply 9):
Many believe that AA did things to hurt Braniff in the end, like landing on the West side of the airport runways to cause Braniff to burn more fuel, etc., but that was not AA controlling the ramps.

So if this all happened in 1982, I think it is fair to say that the airport operator selected the replacement for Braniff and did everything in their power to ensure that their candidate was successful.

midway7 · Sun Sep 27, 2015 1:18 pm

Quoting AAR90 (Reply 12):

Concourse L opened at ORD in 1984. Prior to this DL was located at the aforementioned gates in Concourse H. I do recall seeing DL 747s parked at these H gates in the 1970s.

mayor · Sun Sep 27, 2015 4:01 pm

Quoting AAR90 (Reply 12):

Quoting mayor (Reply 10):
I worked there for 8 1/2 years when we had gates 6, 8, 10 & 11 in the "H" concourse. I think you misunderstand......while the west side of "K" may have been AA's gates, when I said DL was in control, I meant in terms of the ramp tower, when "L" concourse was still open. I understood from DL people at ORD that it was DL's responsibility to assume ramp control of that side of "K", strictly in terms of movement on the ramp.

Perhaps we should start with a common understanding of the Terminal-3 layout at ORD. From EAST to WEST the concourses are: L, K, H, and G. "west side of K" is the "Y" area between H and K concourses. Those have ALWAYS been under AA Ramp Control since at least 1986. I do not recall a time in those 28 years when DL was ever in the H concourse. I do recall DL being in the L concourse (that would be EAST of the K concourse) and "DL Ramp" having control of the ramp area between K and L.

Quoting mayor (Reply 10):
I worked there for 8 1/2 years when we had gates 6, 8, 10 & 11 in the "H" concourse

H concourse even gates are the WEST side of the H concourse (opposite the G concourse) while H-11 has always (last 28+ years) been inside the Y (and never a DL gate). I believe you are confusing the name of the L concourse. DL was always in the L concourse (except for NW merger period).

I guess I got my directions wrong, but I KNOW which gates we operated out of......before "L" it was "H", using gates 6, 8A/B, 10A/B & 11A/B. 10B was later closed for use as parking there put the tail of the a/c too close to the inner taxiway.

Quoting midway7 (Reply 14):

Concourse L opened at ORD in 1984. Prior to this DL was located at the aforementioned gates in Concourse H. I do recall seeing DL 747s parked at these H gates in the 1970s.

Thank you. I knew my memory wasn't completely gone. We used H11A/B, both jetways to park the 747 in the early 70s. I don't remember if we used both jetways for the DC-10s or Tristars, after that.

afcjets · Sun Sep 27, 2015 5:27 pm

I am just curious if American's product today would look or feel any different if they still had to compete with Delta at their largest hub. I personally think Crandall's departure was the beginning of the steady decline of American Airlines over the years, but I am sure they probably tried a little harder when they had to compete with Delta on their home turf.

ord · Sun Sep 27, 2015 5:59 pm

Quoting AAR90 (Reply 6):
In 1986 DL and AA were essentially DFW equals with 33% and 35% of traffic respectively. Both competed aggressively for DFW market share and by 1992 DL had slipped to 27% while AA had grown to 68%.

This is incorrect. Delta was never even close to AA in DFW market share. As of late 1985, Delta only had a 22% share versus AA's roughly 60%. Delta peaked around summer 1992, with 29% while AA's share at the time remained around 60%. These stats are pulled from some newspaper articles and press releases I have.

jb1087xna · Sun Sep 27, 2015 6:06 pm

No doubt they probably felt the need to try harder than they do today.

Quoting mayor (Reply 10):
DL told us at SLC that it was a choice at the time between closing downsizing SLC or downsizing DFW. Since SLC proved more economical to operate, comparted to DFW, they didn't have a chance.

If they had closed SLC, I would assume they would've built up another western hub option. A routing like TUS-ATL-SEA doesn't seem all that attractive.

AAR90 · Sun Sep 27, 2015 7:00 pm

Quoting ord (Reply 17):
This is incorrect. Delta was never even close to AA in DFW market share. As of late 1985, Delta only had a 22% share versus AA's roughly 60%. Delta peaked around summer 1992, with 29% while AA's share at the time remained around 60%. These stats are pulled from some newspaper articles and press releases I have.

Okay, so the information AA was providing its new employees during our "initiation week" was completely false. I stand corrected.

Did DL Make AA A Better Airline By Having DFW Hub?

Did DL Make AA A Better Airline By Having DFW Hub?

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