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777way
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US Carriers Domestic F Class When They Only Have J

Mon Sep 28, 2015 2:41 am

Any reason why they market it as F when they dont even have an F product, why not just sell it as J?
 
Cubsrule
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RE: US Carriers Domestic F Class When They Only Have J

Mon Sep 28, 2015 3:07 am

What is "an F product" on a segment the typical length of a US domestic segment? Certainly not the EY Residence or something similar, is it?
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777way
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RE: US Carriers Domestic F Class When They Only Have J

Mon Sep 28, 2015 3:10 am

I dont know what you mean, but one poster on polls forum says its like premimum economy noy even J, he cited Delta specifically.
 
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adamblang
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RE: US Carriers Domestic F Class When They Only Have J

Mon Sep 28, 2015 3:14 am

Quoting 777way (Thread starter):
why not just sell it as J?

It would require all carriers currently offering F in the US to simultaneously (collusion) (a) re-file all of their fares, (b) re-map all of their existing reservations to the new class of service, (c) update all of the existing IT infrastructure that processes these things, (d) re-align all of their loyalty programs, and (e) re-do all of their marketing. For something that doesn't matter all that much. And might be problematic on the AA and UA domestic routes that currently offer both an F and a J (AA's premium transcon routes and AA and UA's three cabin international aircraft on domestic missions routes).
 
bgm
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RE: US Carriers Domestic F Class When They Only Have J

Mon Sep 28, 2015 3:14 am

I think he means that the "F Class" on US domestic planes barely passes as business class, let alone first class.

The exact same seats on those aircraft are sold as business class on international flights, so I'm guessing that they're sold as first class domestically due to the legacy that coach and first were the only cabins offered, so the name stuck.
 
777way
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RE: US Carriers Domestic F Class When They Only Have J

Mon Sep 28, 2015 3:20 am

No I was asking why do they have to sell J as F, is some archaic policy having them do so? only UA and AA should be selling F as F and not even as F on aircraft that dont have that cabin.
 
rta
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RE: US Carriers Domestic F Class When They Only Have J

Mon Sep 28, 2015 3:23 am

Quoting 777way (Reply 5):
is some archaic policy having them do so

Probably. There isn't really any wrong or right answer for this. It is first class, by domestic standards. But by international standards, its not even business.

apples v oranges
 
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adamblang
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RE: US Carriers Domestic F Class When They Only Have J

Mon Sep 28, 2015 3:24 am

Quoting bgm (Reply 4):
I'm guessing that they're sold as first class domestically due to the legacy that coach and first were the only cabins offered, so the name stuck.

I feel like that happens a lot – the U.S. market starts something (telecom comes to mind) and develops it one way, the entire rest of the world standardizes it another way (North American Numbering Plan vs the rest of international calling), and then decades later the U.S. looks weird even though it was the first mover.

Also worth noting that business class only came to be in the 1970s, rest-of-world short haul first class (the U.S. domestic F) didn't die out until the '80s, and the difference between U.S domestic F and rest-of-world long haul first didn't really differ until BA introduced lie-flat first in 1995 and lie flat J in 1999.

The U.S. short haul market wants 4 across short haul F that's similar to what it's always had, the rest-of-world short haul market wants 6 across short haul J. Where the two compete head to head, airlines need to align. Where the two are separated airlines can give the respective markets the product people are used to.
 
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RE: US Carriers Domestic F Class When They Only Have J

Mon Sep 28, 2015 3:26 am

We would have to go back to the first men who flew and the first airlines that ever existed. They invented something called F class. This continues to the present day and is still called F class in the US. Hope this helps!   
 
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RE: US Carriers Domestic F Class When They Only Have J

Mon Sep 28, 2015 3:28 am

You really can't generalize on First Class in the United States. The U.S. covers a nice chunk of North America so the short answer is yes, a lot of flights First would barely fit the description of business class overseas but on a few routes, the cabin and service is deserving of the First Class name.

As for why they don't just call it business, First Class is widely accepted among Americans to be the primo-class of service. Re-branding domestic F as business would confuse quite a few travelers and would require airlines to completely overhaul their branding and fare charts.
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adamblang
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RE: US Carriers Domestic F Class When They Only Have J

Mon Sep 28, 2015 3:28 am

Quoting 777way (Reply 5):
No I was asking why do they have to sell J as F

They don't" have to sell J as F." There is no J to sell as F. Whatever they call F is F. In this case, that's whatever the frontmost cabin on a multi-cabin aircraft is.
 
777way
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RE: US Carriers Domestic F Class When They Only Have J

Mon Sep 28, 2015 4:02 am

Quoting adamblang (Reply 10):

Thats valid only for AA and UA where they have multi cabin, but not even on a 2 class 777, whats offensive about selling J class cabin on such an aircraft as J?
 
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adamblang
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RE: US Carriers Domestic F Class When They Only Have J

Mon Sep 28, 2015 4:12 am

Quoting 777way (Reply 11):
whats offensive about selling J class cabin on such an aircraft as J?

Nothing's offensive about it but it would be a lot of work for no payoff:

Quoting adamblang (Reply 3):
It would require all carriers currently offering F in the US to simultaneously (collusion) (a) re-file all of their fares, (b) re-map all of their existing reservations to the new class of service, (c) update all of the existing IT infrastructure that processes these things, (d) re-align all of their loyalty programs, and (e) re-do all of their marketing. For something that doesn't matter all that much. And might be problematic on the AA and UA domestic routes that currently offer both an F and a J (AA's premium transcon routes and AA and UA's three cabin international aircraft on domestic missions routes).

I personally think it'd be great to call current domestic First domestic Business instead – would make my job a smidgen easier – but I understand "lotta work for little payoff" as a reason not to.
 
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RE: US Carriers Domestic F Class When They Only Have J

Mon Sep 28, 2015 4:14 am

Quoting 777way (Reply 11):

Thats valid only for AA and UA where they have multi cabin, but not even on a 2 class 777, whats offensive about selling J class cabin on such an aircraft as J?

It's already been answered. It's a legacy designation dating back decades and would take massive IT rework to basically rebook dozens of people per flight on thousands of flights per day for however many days into the future these flights could be sold (generally close to a year out), and adjust the fare tables for every single conceivable city pair that they serve to change the F fare classes to J fare classes. It may sound trivial to those that don't know what's involved, but trying to do something like that could actually overload a system depending on how robust it is (or isn't) and whether they tried doing it all at once.

Now, there's nothing (other than tradition, and marketing/branding) stopping an airline from changing the branding name of the class, but the fare class isn't likely to change until someone finds a simple and risk-free way of doing it.
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777way
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RE: US Carriers Domestic F Class When They Only Have J

Mon Sep 28, 2015 4:18 am

Ok thanks, hope it will change with time.
 
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RE: US Carriers Domestic F Class When They Only Have J

Mon Sep 28, 2015 4:31 am

Concept of first class and coach class go back to the infancy of air travel in the US.

The monkier of 'business class' is a much more recent advent that frankly is mostly not understood in general public.
In addition the idea of first class is well used in other industries as well so its something the public understands.

Simply from a marketing point of view keeping things as First or Coach makes the most sense.
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N1120A
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RE: US Carriers Domestic F Class When They Only Have J

Mon Sep 28, 2015 4:41 am

Quoting 777way (Thread starter):
Any reason why they market it as F when they dont even have an F product, why not just sell it as J?

It is an F product. It is certainly better, from a hard product perspective anyway, than what passes as short haul business in Europe.

Quoting bgm (Reply 4):

I think he means that the "F Class" on US domestic planes barely passes as business class, let alone first class.

The exact same seats on those aircraft are sold as business class on international flights, so I'm guessing that they're sold as first class domestically due to the legacy that coach and first were the only cabins offered, so the name stuck.


The reason they are marketed as business class on international flights is more because that harmonizes with how the "big seat, better meal" class is marketed in those countries. Air Canada and all the LatAm carriers call their short/medium haul product "business."

Quoting 777way (Reply 11):

Thats valid only for AA and UA where they have multi cabin, but not even on a 2 class 777, whats offensive about selling J class cabin on such an aircraft as J?

The argument can be made that, where one has just 2 classes, you only have first and second (economy/coach).

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 15):

The monkier of 'business class' is a much more recent advent that frankly is mostly not understood in general public.
In addition the idea of first class is well used in other industries as well so its something the public understands.

For a very long time, "business class" was the in-between class. First was the best, business was for business people with expense accounts and coach was coach (or economy).
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RE: US Carriers Domestic F Class When They Only Have J

Mon Sep 28, 2015 4:50 am

Quoting 777way (Reply 14):
Ok thanks, hope it will change with time.

Why? First class has been what the US domestic product has been called for... 80, 90 years? Probably the majority of passenger jets ever built subscribe to this interpretation of "First class."

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 15):


Concept of first class and coach class go back to the infancy of air travel in the US.

Exactly, but that won't stop people from lecturing us on how to name our machines, in our own language     
 
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RE: US Carriers Domestic F Class When They Only Have J

Mon Sep 28, 2015 5:26 am

Quoting 777way (Reply 11):

Thats valid only for AA and UA where they have multi cabin, but not even on a 2 class 777, whats offensive about selling J class cabin on such an aircraft as J?

With DL, it's been First Class and Coach Class......at least domestically......on the transatlantic service, at first, there was a First Class, Business Class and Coach Class......after a short time, on those flights, First, disappeared and it became Business Elite (sort of a combo) and Coach Class.
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777way
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RE: US Carriers Domestic F Class When They Only Have J

Mon Sep 28, 2015 6:01 am

Quoting Flighty (Reply 17):
Why? First class has been what the US domestic product has been called for... 80, 90 years? Probably the majority of passenger jets ever built subscribe to this interpretation of "First class."

To catch up with the times, just because it was dosent mean it should be even though its not.
 
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RE: US Carriers Domestic F Class When They Only Have J

Mon Sep 28, 2015 6:08 am

You have to compare apples to apples.

US domestic F can't be compared in any way to international business.

And keep in mind that European short hall business is a few notches below UA domestic first (in comfort, not in amenities).

International premium economy (not to be confused with economy plus products) is 100 notches better than business class was 30 years ago.
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RE: US Carriers Domestic F Class When They Only Have J

Mon Sep 28, 2015 6:29 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 16):
It is an F product. It is certainly better, from a hard product perspective anyway, than what passes as short haul business in Europe.

Agreed, be thankful that you still get a different seat in the premium cabin flight short haul in the US.

Whats first class isn't it just the best thats available on the aircraft/train/ship, rather that a specific product? Lots of UK domestic trains offer first class but sometimes all it gives the passenger is a seat in a separate part of the train. The seats the same as standard class, the service is the same but you pay a lot more for it . What you get is more of a chance of actually getting a seat rather than having to stand.

Go back to the 1960's and 70's flat bed seats weren't that common in first class on aircraft, and the difference between first class fares and economy class fares were no where near as great. It was still first class.
 
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RE: US Carriers Domestic F Class When They Only Have J

Mon Sep 28, 2015 8:53 am

Quoting Flighty (Reply 17):
Exactly, but that won't stop people from lecturing us on how to name our machines, in our own language

I think people find it weird that on long-haul routes where your premium cabins are supposed to mean premium the designation used by airlines describe what you get. If you fly AA business class on the 787 you get what it says, a business class seat with 27 others. If you sell someone F you expect something better than J just by the definition as used by airlines (less seats than in J, more personal space and attention). What you get when looking at "F" is sometimes just a little more than Economy Plus, nowhere near First class.

SQ doesn't have Business above First class. It is just a weird way to name a product when you compare the seats against the international aircraft. Of course you have to realise that you are comparing two different products. And this is still better than EU airlines that sell "J" on a single aisle where you only have the middle seat blocked.
 
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RE: US Carriers Domestic F Class When They Only Have J

Mon Sep 28, 2015 9:20 am

Quoting enzo011 (Reply 22):
And this is still better than EU airlines that sell "J" on a single aisle where you only have the middle seat blocked.

LOL yes exactly! This opens up another question in the same vein for the EU carriers with their short haul business, why call it business class when it really is just a premium economy/economy plus product, and not business class by international standards? It is the exact same question why US carriers call their upper class F instead of J.

Here in Australia our domestic classes are more aligned with international standards, but those changes were made back in the 70s/80s, and were much easier to implement when your country only has two major airlines and 20 odd million people....as others have stated, it would be a lot harder and a much bigger process when you have a lot more airlines involved in bigger countries population wise, and for what? you have an upper class (be it first or business) and a lower class (economy/coach), same difference at the end of the day.

Quoting richcandy (Reply 21):
Whats first class isn't it just the best thats available on the aircraft/train/ship, rather that a specific product?

  
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777way
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RE: US Carriers Domestic F Class When They Only Have J

Mon Sep 28, 2015 9:50 am

Quoting 747m8te (Reply 23):
LOL yes exactly! This opens up another question in the same vein for the EU carriers with their short haul business, why call it business class when it really is just a premium economy/economy plus product,

Very true.
 
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CARST
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RE: US Carriers Domestic F Class When They Only Have J

Mon Sep 28, 2015 10:12 am

The worst argument you throw into any debate is: "Why change it, it has always been like that". A pure knockout argument, that stops any further discussion...


What had been done in the past, might give an explanation to the current situation, but it is no reason to not change the current situation. Broadly speaking, not just talking about this thread.


So back on topic, the world has evolved, the domestic F product is equal to Y+ or more like oldschool J. Why not rename it? Same for European J, just call it Y+. They don't even have to change the booking classes like some here said, just rename the product in marketing and booking engines. Average joe doesn't know a shit about booking classes. He wants his warm nuts, whiskey, more legroom and priority, that's it, whatever it's called...
 
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RE: US Carriers Domestic F Class When They Only Have J

Mon Sep 28, 2015 1:07 pm

Quoting CARST (Reply 25):
So back on topic, the world has evolved, the domestic F product is equal to Y+ or more like oldschool J. Why not rename it?

That returns us to the (unanswered) question I asked upthread: this whole thread assumes that what US carriers offer is not F. What would a hypothetical F product look like on a flight like ORD-MSP or BOS-DCA?
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RE: US Carriers Domestic F Class When They Only Have J

Mon Sep 28, 2015 1:22 pm

At one time United had first, standard and coach. Standard was four abreast on narrow bodies, with upgraded food and beverage service. First was four abreast with even better food and beverage service. Not surprisingly coach was coach.
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Stitch
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RE: US Carriers Domestic F Class When They Only Have J

Mon Sep 28, 2015 1:28 pm

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 26):
What would a hypothetical F product look like on a flight like ORD-MSP or BOS-DCA?

I am guessing Global First (on UA) or Flagship Suite (on AA).
 
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CARST
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RE: US Carriers Domestic F Class When They Only Have J

Mon Sep 28, 2015 1:32 pm

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 26):

That returns us to the (unanswered) question I asked upthread: this whole thread assumes that what US carriers offer is not F. What would a hypothetical F product look like on a flight like ORD-MSP or BOS-DCA?

I didn't wanted to imply that the F product has to look different. It is perfectly fine for domestic US flights. But it is no real product First Class product anymore in the year 2015. That is what I meant with "the world has evolved".

People have a clear image of a F product, that is determined by the average standard offered wordwide under the name "First Class". Same for J, Y+ and Y. Of course there are stark differences between airlines and sometimes even different fleets within one airline, but you can never sell J seat as F. Perhaps on your next flight you'll get European J on AA and when you ask why you got such an uncomfy seat, when you paid F, you'll hear the answer "that is what we sell as F now, your middle seat is free and here are the warm nuts sir". Apparently that would not be accepted by the frequent fliers.

This whole thread is rather theoretically, but I think the US and EU airlines are not doing themselves a favor by selling a certain product under the name of another product which sounds like you'll get much better experience. And tieing a product to a certain market doesn't make sense, too, in a globalised world where travellers/customers might come from all over the world, even on a domestic US or European flight.
 
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adamblang
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RE: US Carriers Domestic F Class When They Only Have J

Mon Sep 28, 2015 1:37 pm

Quoting CARST (Reply 25):
just rename the product in marketing and booking engines

It's not that simple. "Just rename in product marketing" costs millions of dollars.

Quoting CARST (Reply 25):
They don't even have to change the booking classes

And "just" renaming the product in the booking engine without changing the booking classes is going to mean that dozens of systems are going to have to learn when F means First and when F means Business. The more complexity you build into your systems, the more goes wrong and the more people you have to pay to keep it working.
 
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RE: US Carriers Domestic F Class When They Only Have J

Mon Sep 28, 2015 1:37 pm

FYI it is pretty much the same in China (save for the handful of A380s and 748is flying around which have int'l J and F). There's Y and there's F, which is pretty much the same seats sold as domestic F in the US.

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Cubsrule
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RE: US Carriers Domestic F Class When They Only Have J

Mon Sep 28, 2015 1:47 pm

Quoting CARST (Reply 29):
Of course there are stark differences between airlines and sometimes even different fleets within one airline, but you can never sell J seat as F.

Okay. I don't understand, then, why we aren't criticizing BA, LH, etc. for offering very different "Business" products on their European narrowbodies and their long-haul aircraft.
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bcbhokie
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RE: US Carriers Domestic F Class When They Only Have J

Mon Sep 28, 2015 1:53 pm

Lots of weird confusion in this thread. An onboard experience consists of two elements - hard product (the seats) and soft product (the onboard service). And an airline can choose to call things whatever they want based on both.

Taking Delta as an example:

- JFK-LAX/SFO are permanent Delta One (Business) routes and receive what most would consider a true J product - lie flat seats and upgraded meals.
- Some other routes receive lie flat seats as international config aircraft rotate through, but they still receive domestic F service (no amenity kits, etc.). These are still considered domestic first class even though you get a great seat, because DL can't justify spending the extra on the onboard service for what amounts to upgrade class, and they want the flexibility to swap equipment at will. It would also be challenging to coordinate two types of catering based on plane type in some stations that don't see international service.
- The better product is called business because they want companies to be willing to pay for it, and many have policies restricting first class. This arrangement allows the more expensive international product under those policies while restricting the domestic seat that most would consider unnecessarily for a given stage length. Much of DL's bread and butter is corporate contracting and this labeling is convenient for both of them.
- The booking class can actually vary wildly, separate from all of this. Some domestic F routes book into J (Business), particularly those that are part of a bogus "direct" continuation of an international flight. This could mean a 717 flight from SEA-LAX could actually have its domestic first cabin marketed as J in the GDS and showing as Business on the reservation. But this has no bearing on the flight and is likely just to support the direct flights, which I agree are a ridiculous concept and obvious tax dodge and should be abolished.
 
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CARST
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RE: US Carriers Domestic F Class When They Only Have J

Mon Sep 28, 2015 1:54 pm

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 32):
Okay. I don't understand, then, why we aren't criticizing BA, LH, etc. for offering very different "Business" products on their European narrowbodies and their long-haul aircraft.

I do. What they offer is Y+, not even this, its empty middle seat with better catering. The downward spiral continues on both sides of the Atlantic.

I thought I made this clear with my last post, where I mentioned US and European airlines...
 
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RE: US Carriers Domestic F Class When They Only Have J

Mon Sep 28, 2015 1:54 pm

Quoting zrs70 (Reply 20):
And keep in mind that European short hall business is a few notches below UA domestic first (in comfort, not in amenities).

A few notches below UA economy

Quoting richcandy (Reply 21):
Agreed, be thankful that you still get a different seat in the premium cabin flight short haul in the US.

  
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Flighty
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RE: US Carriers Domestic F Class When They Only Have J

Mon Sep 28, 2015 1:55 pm

Quoting CARST (Reply 25):
The worst argument you throw into any debate is: "Why change it, it has always been like that". A pure knockout argument, that stops any further discussion...

Oh my gosh. The definition of airline First Class is and has always been US domestic first class. It isn't supposed to be a global statement. If groups like the ME3 wish to change the status quo, invent a new class -- Super class, Gold class, whatever. What Etihad is selling on A380 is not First class. Any more than a 5,000 square foot penthouse is a mere "suite."

It's like telling germans, no -- your beer is totally wrong. You aren't making lager! We Mexicans do it better! Hey France. Your champagne totally sucks! Learn what champagne is all about! lol

Quoting coal (Reply 31):
There's Y and there's F, which is pretty much the same seats sold as domestic F in the US.

And if they wish to name it something else in Chinese, they have every right to do so.

But if people are rejecting both the China, USA and now EU domestic markets as irrelevant... boy... that's a strong majority of Earth's mainline flying. And it will continue to be.

Quoting CARST (Reply 29):
People have a clear image of a F product, that is determined by the average standard offered wordwide under the name "First Class".

It is?! So it's an all humans vote thing? (most of whom do not speak English)

Quoting CARST (Reply 29):
but I think the US and EU airlines are not doing themselves a favor by selling a certain product under the name of another product

The opinion of people who aren't regular customers of US or EU domestic flights is almost totally irrelevant.

[Edited 2015-09-28 07:15:35]
 
Cubsrule
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RE: US Carriers Domestic F Class When They Only Have J

Mon Sep 28, 2015 1:55 pm

Quoting CARST (Reply 34):
I thought I made this clear with my last post, where I mentioned US and European airlines...

I used "we" and not "you" intentionally; your quote was the easiest to grab, but you and I are on the same page here.

[Edited 2015-09-28 06:59:40]
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RE: US Carriers Domestic F Class When They Only Have J

Mon Sep 28, 2015 2:12 pm

Quoting 777way (Reply 11):
Thats valid only for AA and UA where they have multi cabin, but not even on a 2 class 777, whats offensive about selling J class cabin on such an aircraft as J?

Same thing could be said for QR selling J seats as F on intra mideast flights.
 
777way
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RE: US Carriers Domestic F Class When They Only Have J

Mon Sep 28, 2015 2:17 pm

QR have an F class, they can do that, most US carriers dont.
 
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Polot
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RE: US Carriers Domestic F Class When They Only Have J

Mon Sep 28, 2015 2:27 pm

You realize that the airlines actually use different names for their domestic First versus their international First/Business classes right?

UA domestic F is First class, international F is Global First, international J is BusinessFirst, domestic aircraft used on international flights (e.g. Canada) use Business.

DL domestic F is First class, international J is Delta One (formally BusinessElite), domestic aircraft used on international flights (e.g. Canada) use Business.

AA is the one that muddles things up the most. International F is technically Flagship First, but international J is just business class, domestic is just First. For the transcons they seem to just use First and Business, can't figure out what they do for Canada/Mexico/etc.

Quoting 777way (Reply 39):
QR have an F class, they can do that, most US carriers dont.

2/3rds of the US3 have an international F class. I believe QR is moving to just having F on the A380s.
 
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RE: US Carriers Domestic F Class When They Only Have J

Mon Sep 28, 2015 3:18 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 35):
Quoting zrs70 (Reply 20):
And keep in mind that European short hall business is a few notches below UA domestic first (in comfort, not in amenities).

A few notches below UA economy

That's so true. The difference is a lot more drastic between that and EconPlus / MCE / C+.

35-37" legroom with a person next to you versus 30" BA "club europe" and guaranteed empty middle seat ? I'll definitely pick the legroom here.

It's amazing European airlines can sell you 30" pitch and have the guts to call it a premium cabin.
 
bgm
Posts: 2509
Joined: Fri Sep 11, 2009 9:37 am

RE: US Carriers Domestic F Class When They Only Have J

Mon Sep 28, 2015 3:39 pm

Quoting a380787 (Reply 41):
It's amazing European airlines can sell you 30" pitch and have the guts to call it a premium cabin.

It's amazing US airlines can sell you a slightly larger seat and have the guts to call it 'First Class'. The seat may be tad larger but you still get barked and snarled at by the same tired, grumpy old FAs.

Depends on your perspective and what matters to you...
 
a380787
Posts: 4573
Joined: Tue Jul 09, 2013 4:38 pm

RE: US Carriers Domestic F Class When They Only Have J

Mon Sep 28, 2015 3:44 pm

Quoting bgm (Reply 42):

It's amazing US airlines can sell you a slightly larger seat and have the guts to call it 'First Class'. The seat may be tad larger but you still get barked and snarled at by the same tired, grumpy old FAs.

Depends on your perspective and what matters to you...

Can you come up with something original instead of just directly plagiarizing my post ? US domestic F isn't anything worth writing home about, but it's sure 10000x better than intra-European J.

Add to that, the price differential is a lot more reasonable at times. For the route I fly, I'm routinely quoted $230 one-way for Y or $390 for F. $160 buy-up isn't that bad at all for a 5 hour flight. Intra EU J buy-up is easily larger than that %.
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 18251
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 1:59 pm

RE: US Carriers Domestic F Class When They Only Have J

Mon Sep 28, 2015 3:45 pm

Quoting bgm (Reply 42):
The seat may be tad larger but you still get barked and snarled at by the same tired, grumpy old FAs.

I can't remember the last time I had a "tired grumpy old" FA in F but sure, let's play this game. Your alternative in the EU is 30" of pitch, no IFE, no power, no wifi, no nothin, beyond maybe some elbow room and a terrible meal. You don't have to talk to the FA at all if you don't want to, but you do get to listen to your knees the entire flight, cuz that's the only IFE you have  So premium 
I don't take responsibility at all
 
User avatar
mayor
Posts: 6218
Joined: Sun Mar 09, 2008 3:58 pm

RE: US Carriers Domestic F Class When They Only Have J

Mon Sep 28, 2015 3:46 pm

So, is this what the original poster was getting at?



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJCjSslQhco
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
 
slcdeltarumd11
Posts: 4851
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2004 7:30 am

RE: US Carriers Domestic F Class When They Only Have J

Mon Sep 28, 2015 3:50 pm

Alot of businesses will pay for business not first on international trips (although declining with tech companies leading the charge) but very few if any companies pay for first on domestic so it doesnt really matter that much. sounds better to say first and coach.

I feel like business is slowly becoming first and economy plus is becoming business
 
LH707330
Posts: 2375
Joined: Fri Jun 15, 2012 11:27 pm

RE: US Carriers Domestic F Class When They Only Have J

Mon Sep 28, 2015 4:12 pm

Quoting mayor (Reply 18):
With DL, it's been First Class and Coach Class......at least domestically......on the transatlantic service, at first, there was a First Class, Business Class and Coach Class......after a short time, on those flights, First, disappeared and it became Business Elite (sort of a combo) and Coach Class.

They recently rebranded their int'l J to "Delta One," and many FAs refer to Domestic F as just "our premium cabin."

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 46):
I feel like business is slowly becoming first and economy plus is becoming business

Yeah, same thing, different name. In 10 years we'll be arguing about how Y Xplus Elite should be renamed "Business class" 
 
ScottB
Posts: 7118
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2000 1:25 am

RE: US Carriers Domestic F Class When They Only Have J

Mon Sep 28, 2015 4:14 pm

Quoting BCBHokie (Reply 33):
- The better product is called business because they want companies to be willing to pay for it, and many have policies restricting first class. This arrangement allows the more expensive international product under those policies while restricting the domestic seat that most would consider unnecessarily for a given stage length. Much of DL's bread and butter is corporate contracting and this labeling is convenient for both of them.

This is the #1 reason why the most widely available international long-haul premium class has come to be marketed as "Business." Corporate booking policies almost universally prohibit booking first class seats (outside of a shrinking handful of industries) but often allow travelers to book in J if the flight is long enough. So the airlines have invested large sums in providing attractive products in "Business" class because they want those dollars flowing from high-priced international long-haul business class tickets.

Tied to that is the reason why long-haul "First" class is disappearing -- "Business" class products have improved to the point that the most people actually buying an F seat are doing it for prestige -- and a lot of the seats go empty.

Quoting CARST (Reply 25):
The worst argument you throw into any debate is: "Why change it, it has always been like that". A pure knockout argument, that stops any further discussion...

The "we've always done it what way" argument isn't true here, though. The real reason is: "we won't make any more money by changing how we market the product." The core customer base of the U.S. legacy carriers knows exactly what to expect from the product marketed as domestic F. O.K., a few foreigners coming to the U.S. on vacation will be confused, but that matters not at all for repeat business.
 
bgm
Posts: 2509
Joined: Fri Sep 11, 2009 9:37 am

RE: US Carriers Domestic F Class When They Only Have J

Mon Sep 28, 2015 4:21 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 44):
Your alternative in the EU is 30" of pitch, no IFE, no power, no wifi, no nothin, beyond maybe some elbow room and a terrible meal. You don't have to talk to the FA at all if you don't want to, but you do get to listen to your knees the entire flight, cuz that's the only IFE you have  So premium 

First of all, you realize that there is a world outside of the US and the EU? Personally, I think the EU business class product is crap, so I'm not disagreeing with you.However, the average flight time of EU flights is considerably less than in the US.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 44):
you do get to listen to your knees the entire flight, cuz that's the only IFE you have

Does watching whiny loud Americans complaining count as IFE?   

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