BER: Over 600 Walls Need To Be Rebuild

ua900 · Mon Sep 28, 2015 6:31 pm

The death nail for BER being completed within the latest and greatest restated timeframe to have construction completed by March 2016. As usual, the delays will be just a couple months more than thought, yet without fully known dates. Interestingly, the prospect of rebuilding altogether is raised in the article, usually these voices are dismissed outright without ever making it into an article. Anyone want to bet on when BER will be completed? I'd say not before 2020...

English Translation: http://archyde.com/new-glitch-in-the...600-fire-walls-need-to-be-renewed/
Original Source in German: http://www.bz-berlin.de/berlin/umlan...ei-bis-vier-monate-bauverzoegerung

YouGeeElWhy · Mon Sep 28, 2015 6:34 pm

LAX772LR · Mon Sep 28, 2015 6:54 pm

Quoting ua900 (Thread starter):
BER: Over 600 Walls Need To Be Rebuild

Anyone else see the historical irony in this? Wow!

VC10DC10 · Mon Sep 28, 2015 6:55 pm

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 2):

Only two replies and you've already beaten me to the punch....

LAXintl · Mon Sep 28, 2015 7:01 pm

Existing current discussion on topic.
New Delays At BER Possible. Statics Problems! (by CARST Sep 20 2015 in Civil Aviation)

=

Revelation · Mon Sep 28, 2015 7:20 pm

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 2):
Anyone else see the historical irony in this?

Maybe BER should hire Gorbachev?

TWA772LR · Mon Sep 28, 2015 7:24 pm

Looks like LHR may get that 3rd runway before BER opens...

Sooner787 · Mon Sep 28, 2015 7:26 pm

Looks like DFW may have Terminal F built and before BER opens

9w748capt · Mon Sep 28, 2015 7:28 pm

Can we re-title this thread "list of things that will be complete before BER"

Here's mine - Cubs will win the World Series. Book it!

mcogator · Mon Sep 28, 2015 7:29 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 5):
Maybe BER should hire Gorbachev?

Or a certain country in the ME who is known for building some pretty big, sturdy walls.

747megatop · Mon Sep 28, 2015 7:54 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 5):
Maybe BER should hire Gorbachev?

Well they should first resurrect Mr Reagan from the grave and hire him. Only, this time instead of "Mr Gorbachev, tear down this wall" it would be "Chancellor Merkel, build those 600 walls". Mr Gorbachev will be rejoicing on the sidelines

N14AZ · Mon Sep 28, 2015 7:54 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 4):
Existing current discussion on topic.
New Delays At BER Possible. Statics Problems! (by CARST Sep 20 2015 in Civil Aviation)

No, the roof is another issue. By the way, why is it still the same wrong thread title. It's structural design, not statics...

skipness1E · Mon Sep 28, 2015 8:03 pm

Ok so there comes a point when you tear it down and start again, for real. The design was barely adequate when it was meant to open years ago.

ThReaTeN · Mon Sep 28, 2015 8:04 pm

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 2):
Anyone else see the historical irony in this? Wow!

Lmao. Mr Gorbachov, tear down this wall! (And this other one, and this one. And re-build them up in a way that conforms with the building code.)

747megatop · Mon Sep 28, 2015 8:07 pm

Quoting mcogator (Reply 9):
Or a certain country in the ME who is known for building some pretty big, sturdy walls.

Naw, China beats every one else in that by a long shot. After all they built the great wall of China!

kraz911 · Mon Sep 28, 2015 8:11 pm

Hello all,

This is truly a shame. All this was done and no one noticed? What's next a perfect terminal and the runways/taxiways too thin or cracked??
I would think someone needs to go to jail at the minimum....

SCQ83 · Mon Sep 28, 2015 8:13 pm

I refrain to go to Berlin by plane until the airports are sorted-out.

Last month in TXL was a horrible experience. Terminals A-B were packed. You could literally not walk through the airside area because of the people queueing to go through the non-Schengen area. The Starbucks there must be the filthiest I have ever been, it looked like someone spilled 200 Americanos over every single sofa, chair and table. Stains everywhere.

Then going to terminal C-D (I was flying Air Berlin) the air conditioning didn't work well... it was really hot and sweaty. It smelled like fried food; it looks like the extract systems for the kitchens in the food outlets do not work properly either... so heat + smell food... I ended up almost throwing up.

I literally ended up sick by flying from TXL.

I am not exaggerating, but at this stage TXL should be in the podium of the worst airports in the world. I have had more pleasant experiences flying through JED even. At least the A/C works there. Given that the number of passengers in 2014 were double those of 2004, I wonder what they are thinking about.

[Edited 2015-09-28 13:16:18]

747megatop · Mon Sep 28, 2015 8:17 pm

Quoting ua900 (Thread starter):
The death nail for BER being completed within the latest and greatest restated timeframe to have construction completed by March 2016. As usual, the delays will be just a couple months more than thought, yet without fully known dates. Interestingly, the prospect of rebuilding altogether is raised in the article, usually these voices are dismissed outright without ever making it into an article. Anyone want to bet on when BER will be completed? I'd say not before 2020...

English Translation: http://archyde.com/new-glitch-in-the...600-fire-walls-need-to-be-renewed/
Original Source in German: http://www.bz-berlin.de/berlin/umlan...erung

Guys, on a far serious note...since about the mid nineties we have seen Asia building spanking new mega terminals and airports
Airports from scratch
KIX, ICN, HKG, BKK, BLR, HYD

Awesome new terminals
Changi T3, DEL T3, BOM T2, Beijing T3 for the 2008 olympics.

And I definitely can't list comprehensively the airports and terminals that China has built in the past 15 years; but my point in all this...HOW COULD GERMANY (the famed land synonymous with autobahns, BMW, Mercedes and Lufthansa) BOTCH THIS SO BADLY? They can't build ONE airport and put it in service?

AWACSooner · Mon Sep 28, 2015 8:42 pm

Delta will retire the last MD-80 before BER opens.

ua900 · Mon Sep 28, 2015 8:49 pm

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 2):
Anyone else see the historical irony in this?

Well, these walls are technically in the adjacent state of Brandenburg. However, to your point, there should still be some people left in Berlin who remember how to build them

Quoting N14AZ (Reply 11):
No, the roof is another issue.

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 16):
I am not exaggerating, but at this stage TXL should be in the podium of the worst airports in the world. I have had more pleasant experiences flying through JED even. At least the A/C works there. Given that the number of passengers in 2014 were double those of 2004, I wonder what they are thinking about.

That was bound to happen since no one invested any serious amounts (outside of the recent bathroom remodel perhaps) on TXL banking on that airport shutting down. It's interesting to see that they were willing to throw €5.4 billion at BER vs. the €19 million at TXL for the stop-gap measures. Had they taken 10 or 20% of the BER money and put it into TXL you would have a great airport experience there today. Remarkable that it's able to handle more than 20 million passengers per year vs. the 6 million it was designed for.

Quoting 747megatop (Reply 17):
HOW COULD GERMANY (the famed land synonymous with autobahns, BMW, Mercedes and Lufthansa) BOTCH THIS SO BADLY? They can't build ONE airport and put it in service?

Glad you didn't say VW

- the short answer is that Berlin isn't really part of Germany when it comes to planning (look at 95% of their other projects, e.g. the State Opera Building) plus they fired the general contractor and never replaced them. By now, no one really wants to own the project, and it's become a revolving door for airport personnel, with the hot seats reserved for whoever leads the airport system (also responsible for TXL) and whoever heads the technical section.

PanHAM · Mon Sep 28, 2015 8:59 pm

Quoting 747megatop (Reply 17):
Awesome new terminals
Changi T3, DEL T3, BOM T2, Beijing T3 for the 2008 olympics.

What do all these places have in common?

They never had a reigning Mayor Wowereit

For me, the good Thing is, I get closer winning my bet with each News like that.

The bet is, that Berlin will become the first Major capital City in the world which can be accessed by road and rail only.

Latest when they think that the BER terminal can be opened and they do it and after 6 month TXL HAS to Close, something will disrupt and Close traffic at BER and Bingo, Berlin will be without a working airport.

Down to Zero from 3 airports, down to Zero from 6 runways.

Quoting 747megatop (Reply 17):
And I definitely can't list comprehensively the airports and terminals that China has built in the past 15 years; but my point in all

simple Explanation, Germany is run by the law and not by engineers anymore. The walls which must fall now are made with the wrong sort of Stone, not fire resistant, which is a bit awkward for fire resisting walls. When that happens in China, they paint it over......

777X · Mon Sep 28, 2015 10:08 pm

Quoting 9w748capt (Reply 8):
Cubs will win the World Series.

At least they have a chance this year

But I'd say DL will buy A380's before BER opens.

apodino · Mon Sep 28, 2015 10:09 pm

Southwest will order Airbus before BER opens.

FSDan · Mon Sep 28, 2015 10:17 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 5):
Maybe BER should hire Gorbachev?

Or perhaps Donald Trump?

thekorean · Mon Sep 28, 2015 10:27 pm

Quoting apodino (Reply 22):

FR will offer unconditional refunds before BER opens.

747megatop · Mon Sep 28, 2015 10:29 pm

Quoting FSDan (Reply 23):
Or perhaps Donald Trump?

Now that will be an interesting hire..bringing in a comedian to provide some entertainment. The headlines will then read "Donald TRUMPS Berlin"!

kraz911 · Mon Sep 28, 2015 10:40 pm

Hello all,

Is there anything else wrong at this project? Or are they trying to beat the record of having the oldest "new" airport?? Hopefully "the Donald" doesn't get involved. I don't think a new golf course/resort is needed that badly...

ua900 · Mon Sep 28, 2015 10:54 pm

Quoting kraz911 (Reply 26):
Hopefully "the Donald" doesn't get involved.

Supposedly can build walls and be good at it, both from a time and a cost perspective. BER mgmt. has little to loose at this point.

par13del · Mon Sep 28, 2015 11:01 pm

So FR to LHR and WN to DFW are still possible before BER opens, cool

cedarjet · Mon Sep 28, 2015 11:13 pm

Although the crowding described above sounds terrible, my (many) TXL experiences have been wonderful and I hope BER never opens, btw at this rate my wish will come true.

Now that Pyongyang has a wonderful new terminal and Wonsan has a whole new airport at Kalma, perhaps North Korea has a few available airport builders. They seem to be able to get the job done.

vatveng · Mon Sep 28, 2015 11:34 pm

Quoting FSDan (Reply 23):
Or perhaps Donald Trump?

And he'll make Mexico pay for it!

cosyr · Tue Sep 29, 2015 12:52 am

Quoting AWACSooner (Reply 18):
Delta will retire the last MD-80 before BER opens.

You mean Delta will retire every A330 before BER opens. Too much?

Okie · Tue Sep 29, 2015 1:15 am

Quoting ua900 (Thread starter):
Anyone want to bet on when BER will be completed? I'd say not before 2020...

The English interpretation indicated the materials were "copies" of specified materials.
Some one had to make that call for substitute materials.

I guess my first thought would be go to the actual manufacturers of the materials used and see if certification could be made of existing materials.
The manufacturer may have just never applied for certification and they could be grandfathered if they could pass. I do not know the circumstances by reading the article.
Second recourse would be to who approved the substitution or the contractor who substituted without approval.

Okie

seahawk · Tue Sep 29, 2015 4:53 am

They could ask VW to write a software that cheats the system.

Germany is no longer a symbol for quality, it is a symbol for incompetence and corruption.

kaitak · Tue Sep 29, 2015 5:12 am

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 2):
Anyone else see the historical irony in this?

Quoting VC10DC10 (Reply 3):
Only two replies and you've already beaten me to the punch....

Oh we're just lining up for that one! I was going to say "call in the Russians; they know how to build decent walls"!

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 20):
The bet is, that Berlin will become the first Major capital City in the world which can be accessed by road and rail only.

Well, I think that came pretty close to happening before!

Seriously, though, why blame the mayor? Surely this comes down to the architects and builders. How could they build a public building without installing all of the required safety equipment.

PanHAM · Tue Sep 29, 2015 5:47 am

Quoting kaitak (Reply 34):
Seriously, though, why blame the mayor? Surely this comes down to the architects and builders. How could they build a public building without installing all of the required safety equipment.

The Mayor is to blame, together with that other Muppet on the BBI board, because they made the fatal decision to "save 1 Billion €" by sacking the master contractor. After thaqt, nothing happened for 1 year and then the chaos really started. Wowereit thought that he, as the chairman of the supervising board, should supervise the construction. Without any practical knowledge of anything, he even failed at lading Berlin. The City only has functioning Administrations in the sections where the local Mayor knows what he is doing.

I have written about this Project many times, I'm tired of repeating myself, but fact is, Wowereit and Platzeck screwed up brilliantly. Closing THF was the icing on the cake, how good would it be if the place would still be available to take some pressure off the SXF and TXL sites.

seahawk · Tue Sep 29, 2015 5:56 am

Quoting kaitak (Reply 34):
Seriously, though, why blame the mayor? Surely this comes down to the architects and builders. How could they build a public building without installing all of the required safety equipment.

No, if you do not have somebody doing the general planing an co-ordinating the subcontractors you end up with that mess. And that is what the mayor decided. He decided that the airport should not have a general contractor but give out small sub contracts to local contractors. So the firm building the roof did not know what will be mounted to the roof, nor did the firm building the walls have an idea what they will carry.

PanHAM · Tue Sep 29, 2015 6:14 am

Whereby, reflecting the current sub-issue of having to tear down 600 fire protection walls because the Stones are not properly certifiied, leaves one flabbergasted.

It would take a chain of morons starting with the builder who obviously did not know what he was doing (or he did that deliberately charging the more expensive certified material) to the BBI employee approving the walls. One can assume that some Money went "fakelaki" style under the table?

The state attorney has enough reason to investigate this.

N14AZ · Tue Sep 29, 2015 6:25 am

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 2):
Anyone else see the historical irony in this?

Quoting Revelation (Reply 5):
Maybe BER should hire Gorbachev?

Quoting 747megatop (Reply 10):
Well they should first resurrect Mr Reagan from the grave and hire him.

There is another person who could be quoted, unfortunately not so well known outside Germany: Walter Ulbricht, former boss of the East German communistic party. He is famous for saying "Nooooooobody is intending to build a wall" just months before they started to build the Berlin wall, where he stressed the "nobody" (niemand in German) like Jar Jar Binks
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YjgKKOdVRx4

He could become the next PR manager of BER by saing "nooooooobody is intending to build 600 walls..."

Quoting 747megatop (Reply 17):
And I definitely can't list comprehensively the airports and terminals that China has built in the past 15 years; but my point in all this...HOW COULD GERMANY (the famed land synonymous with autobahns, BMW, Mercedes and Lufthansa) BOTCH THIS SO BADLY? They can't build ONE airport and put it in service?

China is a good example. Just came back from Yantai, where they build a new airport and started operations just some months ago. Last year, I still landed on the old airport closer to the city. The same happened to me in Hefei.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 20):
The walls which must fall now are made with the wrong sort of Stone, not fire resistant, which is a bit awkward for fire resisting walls. When that happens in China, they paint it over......

Hmm, I guess this was written with a grain of salt. I know from experience that the local authorities in China now take fire protection very serious. This is the result of changes in the national legislation, which again happened after some fire catastrophes. I just came back from a project where they quickly replaced all the equipment which did not comply with the fire protection requirements.

PanHAM · Tue Sep 29, 2015 6:41 am

I admit the grain of salt, but

Quoting N14AZ (Reply 38):
I just came back from a project where they quickly replaced all the equipment which did not comply with the fire protection requirements

would that have been done without the Tianjin catastrophy? Fact is, there is no possibility of legal Intervention by the General public, the state in China decides a Project and it will be pushed through. If the German conditions would be applied on China it would take longer to build as well.

We have to compare such Projects with MUC and FRA. Both Airports have an excellent record of finishing Projects withn time and mostly within Budget as well. But I guess if they get the offer to complete BER, both would not touch that mes, not even if they could start from sratch.

seahawk · Tue Sep 29, 2015 6:57 am

News say, that is not clear if the subcontractor used cheap materials or if his contract did not require better materials.

Imho the whole thing is such a mess, that only radical measures can help now. The first is to privatize Flughafen Berlin Brandenburg GmbH. Give it up for free under the condition that the new owner must built a working airport at BER until 2020.

They are then free to either built new or try to make the current buildings fit for use.

N14AZ · Tue Sep 29, 2015 7:11 am

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 39):
would that have been done without the Tianjin catastrophy?

No, China put enforcing fire protection as a priority long before Tianjin. I don't remember exaclty when, I just had time for a brief google research and found - as an indication - this article from 2009:

Quote:
Posted on August 20, 2009 by China Briefing Aug. 20 – The release of amendments to China’s fire safety laws following an increase in the numbers of fatal fires in commercial premises on the mainland last year is affecting businesses, which are now having to ensure adequate measures in fire prevention, evacuation and extinguishing are implemented. - See more at: http://www.china-briefing.com/news/2....dpuf

LCYFlyer · Tue Sep 29, 2015 7:32 am

Two things: design freeze and the wrong guys in the supervisory board who absolutely have no clue what's going on.
It's a freaking shame for Germany!

PanHAM · Tue Sep 29, 2015 7:40 am

Quoting seahawk (Reply 40):
They are then free to either built new or try to make the current buildings fit for use.

Who wants to buy that Company? No one would py more than a symbolic € and even that would be too expensive as the buyer would assume responsibility for all hidden Skeletons.

Building new is not an Option either and the private Investor would have to fight the Berlin bureaucracy which is now tamed by ordre de Mufti Besides, the building Permit is about to expire and private companies in Berlin are under the general suspiciion of just wanting to make a profit which cannot be.

Any Deviation from the present, approved master plan, would probably cause a completely new approval which will go through the courts again which can take anything from 7 to x number of years. The Project is TFUP, I said it before, what is needed is new legislation that is as fire proof as the new walls to Keep TXL open for an unspecified number of years to cope with the expected increase of BER air traffic.

Every new legislative Body has right to make laws and if we can shut down nuclear power plants because a Tsunami 9000 KM away hit a power plant that had the emergency Generators on sea Level isntead of 50 meters above, we can Keep a bloody Airport open as well.

txlbased · Tue Sep 29, 2015 8:04 am

that´s the result when politicians try to run an airport.

CARST · Tue Sep 29, 2015 9:25 am

Quoting txlbased (Reply 44):
that´s the result when politicians try to run an airport.

I wouldn't generalise this. We are talking about a few, certain politicians from a certain party. FRA or Fraport was always (at last partly) in the hand of the state Hessen (Hesse) and benefited from the political support it got; also due to the state wanting to make a profit from the company.

Same can be said about the state Niedersachsen (Lower Saxony) and VW, despite the scandal right now, which will be forgotten in two years, after billions of Euros have been paid.

Like PanHAM wrote above, "making a profit" is a term not known to certain politicians and thus running this project like a real company is not the desired option in Berlin and Brandenburg.

Delta777Jet · Tue Sep 29, 2015 10:20 am

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 35):
Closing THF was the icing on the cake

What would it take to reverse the mistake and re-open THF ?

THF was really a very nice airport and with short ways. With previously 3 airports open, Berlin was really a nice place. Specially the split of classical airlines at TXL, low cost at SXF and city connections out of THF.

I bet that corruption already was starting with the quick closing of THF and the future plans with the created free zone for new buildings.

PanHAM · Tue Sep 29, 2015 11:02 am

Quoting Delta777Jet (Reply 46):
What would it take to reverse the mistake and re-open THF ?

That is impossible, the Seveso Guidelines alone make it impossible. No Chance.

Quoting CARST (Reply 45):
FRA or Fraport was always (at last partly) in the hand of the state Hessen (Hesse) and benefited from the political support

The City of FRA and the state of Hesse jointly own about 52% of the Shares, but the political parties in hesse made a wise decision to make Fraport a publicly listed Company, trading the other 48% at the stock Exchange.

That means that the 52% are not a majority. Pees off the present Mayor of FRA and some state Ministers and polticians who are against the Airport Expansion but there's nothing they can do.

I supervisory board member has to act in the over all interest of the corporation which usually is contrary the green or red Party interests. Does not Keep the state Minister in Charge of economy and the Frankfurt Mayor to stay absent from ground braking for T3 coming Monday but that is child's behaviour.

If they had had a similar set upo in Berlin they would not even have half the trouble they have now. .

B8887 · Tue Sep 29, 2015 11:24 am

Quoting LCYFlyer (Reply 42):
Two things: design freeze and the wrong guys in the supervisory board who absolutely have no clue what's going on.
It's a freaking shame for Germany!

Yeah, shame is the best adjective I can find for this. I've already been through trying to make sense of it, playing the armchair CEO, trying to find solutions... Now it's just some indifference.

I am not sure the people behind this will win a call for tender soon for an airport expansion elsewhere in the world.

Regards.

B8887

bill142 · Tue Sep 29, 2015 11:36 am

The state of Brandenburg should do a Bjelke-Petersen and call the Deen Brothers to fix this mess.

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