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MKE22
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F9 Adds 8 "new" Routes From Denver, Florida

Tue Sep 29, 2015 6:10 pm

http://www.usatoday.com/story/todayi...denver-with-8-new-routes/73018990/

Sounds like F9 is tinkering with their destinations again. Good to see they feel more confident with their expansion though, I suppose.

Daily additions include:

MKE-MCO (1/5/16)
MCI-MCO (1/5/16)
DEN-PHL (3/16/16)
DEN-CLT (3/17/16)
Houston-MCO (12/19/15)

[Edited 2015-09-29 11:14:09]
 
Jerseyguy
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RE: F9 Adds 8 "new" Routes From Denver, Florida

Tue Sep 29, 2015 6:16 pm

The biggest one for me is the DEN-PHL route. There was a lot of people questioning if they would do that and it's not even seasonal
 
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RE: F9 Adds 8 "new" Routes From Denver, Florida

Tue Sep 29, 2015 6:28 pm

Yes!!! I've been hoping for a CLT-DEN.
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airliner371
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RE: F9 Adds 8 "new" Routes From Denver, Florida

Tue Sep 29, 2015 6:59 pm

Quoting MKE22 (Thread starter):
DEN-CLT (3/17/16)

I wonder if Southwest will finally jump on the CLT-DEN bandwagon now.
 
BTVB6Flyer
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RE: F9 Adds 8 "new" Routes From Denver, Florida

Tue Sep 29, 2015 7:05 pm

They are also starting TPA-STL (12/19)
 
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adamblang
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RE: F9 Adds 8 "new" Routes From Denver, Florida

Tue Sep 29, 2015 7:08 pm

Their home page says...
RSW-DTW eff 5JAN16
RSW-IND eff 5JAN16
RSW-MKE eff 19DEC15
RSW-STL eff 19DEC15
TPA-STL eff 19DEC15
MCO-IAH eff 19DEC15
MCO-MCI eff 5JAN16
MCO-MKE eff 5JAN16
DEN-CLT eff 17MAR16
DEN-PHL eff 16MAR16
 
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mariner
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RE: F9 Adds 8 "new" Routes From Denver, Florida

Tue Sep 29, 2015 7:42 pm

Quoting adamblang (Reply 5):
Their home page says...
RSW-DTW eff 5JAN16
RSW-IND eff 5JAN16
RSW-MKE eff 19DEC15
RSW-STL eff 19DEC15
TPA-STL eff 19DEC15
MCO-IAH eff 19DEC15
MCO-MCI eff 5JAN16
MCO-MKE eff 5JAN16
DEN-CLT eff 17MAR16
DEN-PHL eff 16MAR16

And as part of all this, DEN-MCO gets the A321:

http://www.bizjournals.com/denver/ne...stop-flights-from-denver-to-2.html

"An increase in capacity and frequency of nonstop flights between Denver and Orlando. The airline will replace a 180-seat Airbus A320 that now flies the route with a new 230-seat Airbus A321 and will bump the route from two flights per day to three beginning in mid-November, Faulkner said."

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nkops
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RE: F9 Adds 8 "new" Routes From Denver, Florida

Tue Sep 29, 2015 8:53 pm

Quoting mariner (Reply 6):
The airline will replace a 180-seat Airbus A320 that now flies the route with a new 230-seat Airbus A321

They actually cram more people in than NK?
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Frontier14
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RE: F9 Adds 8 "new" Routes From Denver, Florida

Tue Sep 29, 2015 8:58 pm

Glad to learn that F9 is connecting the dots with MCI and MCO. Frontier has long been part of the MCI scene until the recent ownership change. I am hoping this proves successful which could lead to more winter time Florida markets being established from KC.

Frontier 14
 
spin25
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RE: F9 Adds 8 "new" Routes From Denver, Florida

Tue Sep 29, 2015 9:37 pm

I don't see ATL-MCO or ATL-ORD after January 4th. Have they discontinued or just not loaded them in yet?
 
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mke717spotter
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RE: F9 Adds 8 "new" Routes From Denver, Florida

Tue Sep 29, 2015 9:49 pm

Didn't F9 just fly MKE-MCO/RSW seasonally this past year?
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RE: F9 Adds 8 "new" Routes From Denver, Florida

Tue Sep 29, 2015 10:00 pm

Has F9 gotten a 321 yet? I haven't seen any pictures. Doesn't the new type need some proving runs done before starting service?
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whereitswarm
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RE: F9 Adds 8 "new" Routes From Denver, Florida

Tue Sep 29, 2015 11:52 pm

Here is a picture of the A321 in Frontier paint. I don't think it's stateside yet. Otto the Owl
First photo of A321 in Frontier paint.
 
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knope2001
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RE: F9 Adds 8 "new" Routes From Denver, Florida

Wed Sep 30, 2015 12:44 am

Quoting mke717spotter (Reply 10):
Didn't F9 just fly MKE-MCO/RSW seasonally this past year?

Last winter they flew MKE-RSW and MKE-MCO 3x/week each. They had vacation contracts for MKE flying to certain international beach markets, and six days per week they used slack afternoon time from that aircraft to fly to Florida. When the season ended both MKE-MCO and MKE-RSW were removed from the map, and with Frontier not flying any MKE international routes this winter there's no slack like last winter to fund Florida flying. .

This year they've chosen to fly them each 7x/week. Along with 7x/week MKE-LAS they'll provide Southwest with some competition in three big MKE leisure markets.
 
Jerseyguy
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RE: F9 Adds 8 "new" Routes From Denver, Florida

Wed Sep 30, 2015 1:42 am

Quoting nkops (Reply 7):
They actually cram more people in than NK?

Well yes while they do have more seats than NK, they are not a tighter pitch. The planes are being retrofitted to use space-flex technology which will move the rear bathrooms to the back of the plane in the fuselage which will allow more seats

http://videos.airbus.com/video/e4d6779706as.html
 
rtalk25
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RE: F9 Adds 8 "new" Routes From Denver, Florida

Wed Sep 30, 2015 2:13 am

Quoting knope2001 (Reply 13):
This year they've chosen to fly them each 7x/week. Along with 7x/week MKE-LAS they'll provide Southwest with some competition in three big MKE leisure markets.

It's kind of like the Greyhound choice vs. the Amtrak choice of getting somewhere, but it is competition. Southwest also likes to fare match at times.

Quoting spin25 (Reply 9):
I don't see ATL-MCO or ATL-ORD after January 4th.
ATL-PHL/TTN is also missing. Maybe the ATL/ORD based flying will just be for late Spring to early Fall, while Florida dominates now.

At DEN, DEN-CLE disappears. Within North Carolina, DEN-RDU/GSO disappears in favor of DEN-CLT. RDU and GSO have no F9 service in the Winter.

The new DEN routes are rather strange. On one hand, I thought F9 wanted to be less DEN centric. DEN-PHL has three competitors, and overflies several hubs. From my observation of PHL fares, DL will sell cheap tickets through connecting hubs, so I don't know if it will be easy for F9, despite having interested customers on both ends.

But, I suppose it's good to finally see a route past the central time zone from F9 ex PHL. It might as well have gone for a bigger more grand route like PHL-LAX to garner more public interest.

[Edited 2015-09-29 19:17:24]
 
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mariner
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RE: F9 Adds 8 "new" Routes From Denver, Florida

Wed Sep 30, 2015 2:43 am

Quoting rtalk25 (Reply 15):
Within North Carolina, DEN-RDU/GSO disappears in favor of DEN-CLT. RDU and GSO have no F9 service in the Winter.

Not really "in favor of." DEN-GSO and DEN-RDU have always been seasonal and DEN-CLT and DEN-PHL don't start until mid-March when the cruel months of January/February are over.

When "old" Frontier flew DEN-PHL, it was gangbusters in summer but "miserable" (Shurz's word) in winter. Same was true for when they flew LAX-PHL non-stop. By starting in mid-March, hopefully they avoid most of the misery.

It's always been true for Frontier. East-west in winter has long been a problem, whereas north-south in winter is great. In summer, that changes.

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RE: F9 Adds 8 "new" Routes From Denver, Florida

Wed Sep 30, 2015 2:57 am

I wish we could get some of these animals back to CMH. After all, we've got one of the world's best zoos, stands to reason we should have a few F9 creatures come through here.
 
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RE: F9 Adds 8 "new" Routes From Denver, Florida

Wed Sep 30, 2015 12:14 pm

Quoting rtalk25 (Reply 15):
It's kind of like the Greyhound choice vs. the Amtrak choice of getting somewhere, but it is competition. Southwest also likes to fare match at times.

Greyhound and Amtrak are two different animals. Amtrak offers lounges with horizontally placed seating in front of huge windows, dining cars and sleepers while Greyhound offers squat. Amtrak is incredibly comfortable in coach while Greyhound is hard and crammed. Although Amtrak's prices are close to those of Greyhound, most people take the train because they want to take the train. Greyhound is no match for 2V. Sorry about the rant, I just wanted to clear the air.
 
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RE: F9 Adds 8 "new" Routes From Denver, Florida

Wed Sep 30, 2015 4:35 pm

Quoting airliner371 (Reply 3):
I wonder if Southwest will finally jump on the CLT-DEN bandwagon now.

I'm sure they will at some point.

Quoting nkops (Reply 7):
They actually cram more people in than NK?

I wonder how far you can fly a 321 with 230 people and their bags?
 
rtalk25
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RE: F9 Adds 8 "new" Routes From Denver, Florida

Wed Sep 30, 2015 5:01 pm

I noticed that after 12/30, all DCA-DEN flights are priced at $500 one-way, which is full fare, and probably priced to not sell. This is operated 3x daily.

I'd be quite surprised if F9 decided to end the service over others, and surrender the slot exemptions since they are valuable.

The 3x daily frequeny seemed oriented for business passenger traffic than the ULCC model, however, but I assumed F9 was still filling the seats likely with passengers (and likely many business pax) that still wanted nonstop into DCA.

[Edited 2015-09-30 10:08:28]
 
rtalk25
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RE: F9 Adds 8 "new" Routes From Denver, Florida

Wed Sep 30, 2015 5:16 pm

Quoting usdcaguy (Reply 18):
Greyhound and Amtrak are two different animals.

That was my point, between Southwest and Frontier. Very different customer service and expectations.

Quoting mariner (Reply 16):
Not really "in favor of." DEN-GSO and DEN-RDU have always been seasonal and DEN-CLT and DEN-PHL don't start until mid-March when the cruel months of January/February are over.
RDU and GSO service ex DEN is missing in March/April.

Quoting mariner (Reply 16):
When "old" Frontier flew DEN-PHL, it was gangbusters in summer but "miserable" (Shurz's word) in winter.

The Frontier of this year didn't fly the route, and the assumed reasoning for choosing ATL/ORD ex PHL instead was Frontier wants to fly where pax want to go.

Maybe F9's variation of ULCC isn't even going for repeat customers, but trying to be like Pinkberry limited flavors. One summer offer ATL/ORD, another summer offer DEN, another summer offer something else like PHX.

[Edited 2015-09-30 10:44:14]
 
ScottB
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RE: F9 Adds 8 "new" Routes From Denver, Florida

Wed Sep 30, 2015 5:36 pm

Quoting nkops (Reply 7):
Quoting mariner (Reply 6):
The airline will replace a 180-seat Airbus A320 that now flies the route with a new 230-seat Airbus A321

They actually cram more people in than NK?

Heck, they only wedge 4 people fewer on the A321 than DL does on the A330-200.

Quoting rtalk25 (Reply 20):
I noticed that after 12/30, all DCA-DEN flights are priced at $500 one-way, which is full fare, and probably priced to not sell. This is operated 3x daily.

I'd be quite surprised if F9 decided to end the service over others, and surrender the slot exemptions since they are valuable.

I agree with you to a point, but I'd also point out that it becomes more challenging to fill three daily A319's at 150 seats each as the connecting feed at DEN is diminished. I doubt the route is unprofitable for F9, but the slot exemptions are only valuable if the airline can use them profitably, since they cannot be traded or sold. It's akin to the "valuable" nature of the HND slots DL was using for SEA-HND.
 
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RE: F9 Adds 8 "new" Routes From Denver, Florida

Wed Sep 30, 2015 5:40 pm

Quoting ScottB (Reply 22):
I agree with you to a point, but I'd also point out that it becomes more challenging to fill three daily A319's at 150 seats each as the connecting feed at DEN is diminished. I doubt the route is unprofitable for F9, but the slot exemptions are only valuable if the airline can use them profitably, since they cannot be traded or sold.

I wonder if F9 would consider giving up one or two of the exemptions if it isn't doing so well for the airline anymore. If so you know WN would be on that immediately.
 
rtalk25
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RE: F9 Adds 8 "new" Routes From Denver, Florida

Wed Sep 30, 2015 5:48 pm

Quoting airliner371 (Reply 23):
I wonder if F9 would consider giving up one or two of the exemptions if it isn't doing so well for the airline anymore. If so you know WN would be on that immediately.

Oddly maybe there is strategy that if WN gets DCA-DEN, WN leaves IAD so that F9 isn't bothered by WN over at IAD. Although IAD hasn't been so great for F9 that it's interesting why F9 is keeping it, with just two flights left, 1x to MCO, and 1x to ATL.

I think we will see some low fare skirmishing on IAD-ATL this winter in the mean time.

[Edited 2015-09-30 10:48:48]
 
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knope2001
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RE: F9 Adds 8 "new" Routes From Denver, Florida

Wed Sep 30, 2015 6:02 pm

Quoting rtalk25 (Reply 20):
I noticed that after 12/30, all DCA-DEN flights are priced at $500 one-way, which is full fare, and probably priced to not sell. This is operated 3x daily.

For what it's worth, as of last night there were a fair number of Frontier routes with (seemingly) full Y fares on some or all days. Some of them had bargain fares on off-peak days but very high fares on others, such as one-way $119 Tuesday-Wednesday but $429 the rest of the week. I don't necessarily think those suggest they don't plan to fly the full-fare flights -- it may simply be them populating the full range of fares correctly on all flights/all days.

I do agree 3x DEN-DCA is something of an outlier given how the rest of the network has evolved, though the exemption Frontier enjoys makes those a valuable commodity. If *only* DEN-DCA showed high-fare full-coach every day I might raise an eyebrow. But there are other markets were (as of last night) some or all days of the week had fares in the $400-$500 range each way. I'm guessing those are due to incomplete fare loads.
 
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mariner
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RE: F9 Adds 8 "new" Routes From Denver, Florida

Wed Sep 30, 2015 6:10 pm

Quoting rtalk25 (Reply 21):
RDU and GSO service ex DEN is missing in March/April.

That's my point - they've never flown in March/April. GSO has usually restarted in May and RDU didn't begin until June.

I;ve no idea if they'll be back in 2016, but I don't think PHL/CLT prohibits that.

Quoting rtalk25 (Reply 21):
Maybe F9's variation of ULCC isn't even going for repeat customers, but trying to be like Pinkberry limited flavors. One summer offer ATL/ORD, another summer offer DEN, another summer offer something else like PHX.

Whatever they're doing, it;s working. According to the Denver Post, Frontier is now the 5th most profitable airline in the US:

http://www.denverpost.com/business/c...es-5th-most-profitable-airline-u-s

"Frontier Airlines launches to fifth-most profitable airline in the U.S.

Denver-based Frontier Airlines is enjoying record profitability that in the past 12 months propelled it to the fifth-most-profitable airline in the U.S. and seventh in the world, according to industry analysts.

Frontier logged a net profit of $54 million and an operating margin of 21 percent from April through June 2015, according to Airline Weekly analysis of second-quarter financial data compiled by the U.S. Department of Transportation.

The airline's operating margin in the second quarter of 2014 was 15 percent, up from 5 percent in the first quarter of 2014.

Worldwide, airlines logged an average operating margin of about 8 percent for the same period, Kaplan said."


 

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mariner
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RE: F9 Adds 8 "new" Routes From Denver, Florida

Wed Sep 30, 2015 8:54 pm

Quoting knope2001 (Reply 25):
I do agree 3x DEN-DCA is something of an outlier given how the rest of the network has evolved, though the exemption Frontier enjoys makes those a valuable commodity.

Only valuable if they can make money on 'em, and I'm slightly surprised that DEN-DCA is showing as the full 3 x daily in January/February. I'm guessing there's not a lot of leisure traffic at that time of the year, although there may be some.

There have been deep winters where they have cut the service back to 2 x daily for those two months - in the non-ULCC days. I guess the rule that east-west sucks in winter applies even to DCA.

Tough to know, but I don't think there are any sacred cows these days. DEN-SNA used to be one, for example. It really depends on where the aircraft can be most profitably used.

mariner

[Edited 2015-09-30 13:55:52]
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FlyingSicilian
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RE: F9 Adds 8 "new" Routes From Denver, Florida

Thu Oct 01, 2015 4:06 am

Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 1):
The biggest one for me is the DEN-PHL route. There was a lot of people questioning if they would do that and it's not even seasonal

Well, as I posted anecdotally in another thread I have flown IAH-PHL roundtrip twice with several family members recently and all the flights only had a few open seats. PHL-IAH continued onto DEN and at least two dozen people were continuing on to DEN from PHL so Frontier is capturing some traffic now via the one-stop. Hopefully that bodes well for the non-stop.

Also interesting to see Frontier compete with Spirit on IAH-MCO. They seem to be matching Spirit on several IAH domestic routes. Do Frontier and Spirit overlap on a lot of domestic US routes?

I am not that familiar with Spirit and too lazy to look it up  

[Edited 2015-09-30 21:11:25]
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Jerseyguy
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RE: F9 Adds 8 "new" Routes From Denver, Florida

Thu Oct 01, 2015 4:14 am

Quoting rtalk25 (Reply 15):
ATL-PHL/TTN is also missing

In addition to PHL/TTN-ATL also missing is TTN-RDU and PHL/TTN-CLT

What will be interesting to see is if F9 announces new cities for PHL or TTN (or both) or if winter will find a reduced schedule.
 
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Frontier14
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RE: F9 Adds 8 "new" Routes From Denver, Florida

Thu Oct 01, 2015 2:09 pm

Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 29):
What will be interesting to see is if F9 announces new cities for PHL or TTN (or both) or if winter will find a reduced schedule.

I would be willing to bet it is a reduced schedule that we are seeing. Whether or not all the previous TTN routes come back is probably a crap shoot. Hopefully, most of them will.

Frontier 14
 
usairways85
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RE: F9 Adds 8 "new" Routes From Denver, Florida

Thu Oct 01, 2015 2:54 pm

Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 29):
What will be interesting to see is if F9 announces new cities for PHL or TTN (or both) or if winter will find a reduced schedule.
Quoting Frontier14 (Reply 30):
I would be willing to bet it is a reduced schedule that we are seeing. Whether or not all the previous TTN routes come back is probably a crap shoot. Hopefully, most of them will.

Judging by F9's recent announcements it appears the winter will be focused on warm weather destinations. It remains to be seen if F9 will deploy highly seasonal schedules with a focus on Florida in the winter and then some of these "odd" city pairs (PHL-ATL/MSP/CLT, TTN-RDU/CLT) in the summer.

This winter F9 will have PHL-MCO/TPA/RSW/MIA/PUJ/MBJ/CUN. There really aren't many other warm weather destinations to add.
 
727LOVER
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RE: F9 Adds 8 "new" Routes From Denver, Florida

Thu Oct 01, 2015 5:20 pm

Quoting usairways85 (Reply 31):
This winter F9 will have PHL-MCO/TPA/RSW/MIA/PUJ/MBJ/CUN. There really aren't many other warm weather destinations to add.

CHS, SAV, FLL, PBI, SRQ
"We must accept finite disappointment, but never lose infinite hope." - Martin Luther King, Jr.
 
usairways85
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RE: F9 Adds 8 "new" Routes From Denver, Florida

Thu Oct 01, 2015 7:31 pm

Quoting 727LOVER (Reply 32):

CHS, SAV, FLL, PBI, SRQ

PBI & SRQ
Possibilities but both are served from TTN. Overlap between TTN and PHL on routes to larger FL markets probably do not cannabilize the other, but I question if F9 can sustain both TTN/PHL on smaller FL markets.

FLL
I'd be surprised if F9 decided to fly to both FLL and MIA

CHS & SAV
They are not really warm weather destinations in my opinion. I would travel there between Apr-Oct but I really wouldn't consider it between Nov-Mar. Not to say they aren't warmer than PHL in Jan, but they also aren't TPA. Plus you have NK on PHL-MYR, which can be seen as an alternative to CHS, maybe not SAV.
 
rtalk25
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RE: F9 Adds 8 "new" Routes From Denver, Florida

Thu Oct 01, 2015 9:55 pm

DCA-DEN now has low fares loaded in January. There are some days in December with full Y fares, but I think it's just a system issue. Even CLT-DEN is full Y fares, which I find a little odd - announcing a route but not having the fares attractive yet.

F9 is also running a sale, promo code MARS, which ends today.

Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 29):
What will be interesting to see is if F9 announces new cities for PHL or TTN (or both) or if winter will find a reduced schedule.

I hope some of the old seasonal or to be suspended, but were flown this year routes return. Over at ACY, I noticed NK's seasonal routes all return, and Air Canada's 4x weekly YYZ flight is also returning.
 
Jerseyguy
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RE: F9 Adds 8 "new" Routes From Denver, Florida

Fri Oct 02, 2015 3:25 am

Quoting usairways85 (Reply 33):
PBI & SRQ
Possibilities but both are served from TTN.

If you are referring to TPA as a SRQ alternate then yes but F9 doesn't directly fly TTN-SRQ. I don't even believe they have an operation there.

Quoting rtalk25 (Reply 34):
I hope some of the old seasonal or to be suspended, but were flown this year routes return. Over at ACY, I noticed NK's seasonal routes all return, and Air Canada's 4x weekly YYZ flight is also returning.

Maybe some increased frequencies to MCO. They go from 1X to 2X daily October 24th

[Edited 2015-10-01 20:31:35]
 
usairways85
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RE: F9 Adds 8 "new" Routes From Denver, Florida

Fri Oct 02, 2015 12:11 pm

Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 35):
If you are referring to TPA as a SRQ alternate then yes but F9 doesn't directly fly TTN-SRQ. I don't even believe they have an operation there.

My bad, I was thinking of TTN-UST
 
RL757PVD
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RE: F9 Adds 8 "new" Routes From Denver, Florida

Fri Oct 02, 2015 12:32 pm

Quoting Frontier14 (Reply 30):

I would be willing to bet it is a reduced schedule that we are seeing. Whether or not all the previous TTN routes come back is probably a crap shoot. Hopefully, most of them will.

According to the OAG thread, TPA gets the ax Jan through at least March, I found that to be a little odd...
Experience is what you get when what you thought would work out didn't!
 
rtalk25
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RE: F9 Adds 8 "new" Routes From Denver, Florida

Fri Oct 02, 2015 1:46 pm

Quoting RL757PVD (Reply 37):
According to the OAG thread, TPA gets the ax Jan through at least March, I found that to be a little odd...

I agree it's odd and maybe not a good sign for TTN, but atleast between PHL/ACY there will likely still be low fares available on nonstops.

Now it will be much more expensive for leisure pax from NJ and PA pax to fly to North Carolina because of the loss of RDU and CLT nonstops and uncertain returns. Back to driving for many folks, or heading to BWI maybe for a lower nonstop fare. DL is lately been selling low fare connections to certain markets. e.g. $77 PHL-ATL/JFK/RDU-CLE one-way in November, so maybe it will expand to offer some long duration connection but cheap fares on several short haul distance cities from PHL/TTN area.

[Edited 2015-10-02 06:52:57]

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