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mercure1
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Air France Fails To Reach Savings Accord With Crew

Thu Oct 01, 2015 7:25 pm

Today Air France CEO confirms failed negotiations with the pilot and cabin crews regarding company desire to save €1 billion for its "Perform 2020" plan.

Company had given negotiation deadline of September 30 for the talks, and now says it must pursue "plan B" as soon as its next board meeting planned on October 5th.

Under the previously announced threat of Plan B, Air France would seek reduction of about 10% of all long haul services, postpone delivery of 787-9 fleet, and announce redundancies in staff of upwards of 8,000 out of 64,000 across AFKL which could be implemented as soon as January 2016.

Story links (in French)
http://www.air-journal.fr/2015-10-01...rise-des-negociations-5151151.html
http://www.air-journal.fr/2015-09-30...0-jour-j-a-air-france-5151097.html


Crux of dispute centers around demand of company for pilots to fly 14-18% more annually, and cabin hostesses between 15-18.2% hours in return for no additional pay plus accepting 3 year pay freeze in lieu of potential receipt of €100mil profit sharing after 2017 if all plans are properly implemented. Obviously quite a double hit the company is making of its air crews.

[Edited 2015-10-01 12:37:32]
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anstar
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RE: Air France Fails To Reach Savings Accord With Crew

Thu Oct 01, 2015 8:44 pm

Quoting mercure1 (Thread starter):
Obviously quite a double hit the company is making of its air crews.

Sure it is a double hit... but AF Cabin crew seem be about 30% less productive than their colleagues at IAG as an example.

I remember chatting to one AF Cabin Crew who said they only did 2 or 3 trips a month on a full time contract! Not bad if you can get it... work rules from a time gone by.
 
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RE: Air France Fails To Reach Savings Accord With Crew

Thu Oct 01, 2015 9:07 pm

Regardless of how out of whack AF might be compared to peers, asking for an overnight 15%+ productivity gain and zero raises for 3-years is a rather aggressive and likely means about easy 20%+ relative earnings loss.

I'm not sure shock therapy is the way to go knowing AF and its labor issues. Something that is more gradual while maybe not ideal for the company is likely be much better accepted socially.

[Edited 2015-10-01 14:10:05]
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anstar
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RE: Air France Fails To Reach Savings Accord With Crew

Thu Oct 01, 2015 9:17 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 2):
'm not sure shock therapy is the way to go knowing AF and its labor issues. Something that is more gradual while maybe not ideal for the company is likely be much better accepted socially.

I doubt the unions would even agree to that. Time for AF (and KL) to bite the bullet and get all the changes they need done pushed through once and for all. I dont like ti myself... but the fact is pax wont pay more for fares so you need to squeeze your suppliers and your staff to get costs down. IAG seem to be the role model for this in europe... Austrian have been equally as agressive with their crews.
 
na
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RE: Air France Fails To Reach Savings Accord With Crew

Thu Oct 01, 2015 9:21 pm

Only in German, sorry:
http://www.handelsblatt.com/unterneh...-auf-hartem-sparkurs/12399060.html

14 longhaul planes to be sold and 4900 jobs to be cut at Air France, according to an as yet unannounced plan. One reason: cost cutting at KLM has been much more successful than within AF.

I wonder which planes will be axed. I guess most will be A340s and 77Es,. I do not know if the last 744s are counted here, as they are being retired or returned to lessors according to schedule.
 
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RE: Air France Fails To Reach Savings Accord With Crew

Thu Oct 01, 2015 9:37 pm

Quoting na (Reply 4):
I wonder which planes will be axed. I guess most will be A340s and 77Es,

According to this Les Echos paper, the A340s already scheduled for retirement (how many?) are part of the 14. AF should also delay deliveries of the the first 787s scheduled for November 2016.

http://www.lesechos.fr/industrie-ser...seau-et-des-effectifs-1161340.php#
 
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mercure1
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RE: Air France Fails To Reach Savings Accord With Crew

Fri Oct 02, 2015 12:54 am

Quoting anstar (Reply 3):
Time for AF (and KL) to bite the bullet and get all the changes they need done pushed through once and for all.

Well the whole thing could implode and result in lots of social issues if management does not deal with things delicately.

I dont think the government would support the company or have the appetite to faces tens of thousands of demonstrators if staff launch their own counter attack actions.

Also AFKL want many other things from employees as well, so simply focus on this issue of duty hours takes away from other changes the company also is seeking concessions for.
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RE: Air France Fails To Reach Savings Accord With Crew

Fri Oct 02, 2015 3:10 am

What about their prestige plane, the Airbus 380? I thought that this plane is more or less a fleet miss-match for Air France + the last B744 = 14 air frames. Not sure where the 380's are going but I have heard from a pretty reliable source that some might end up on a lease with SKyTeam partner Saudia. So a me3 might become soon me4...
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RE: Air France Fails To Reach Savings Accord With Crew

Fri Oct 02, 2015 5:41 am

Very sad.

I wonder which route they will axe. Any idea?
A shame to postpone the 787 delivery, too...

I hope for the best for AF
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mozart
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RE: Air France Fails To Reach Savings Accord With Crew

Fri Oct 02, 2015 10:35 am

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 2):

Regardless of how out of whack AF might be compared to peers, asking for an overnight 15%+ productivity gain and zero raises for 3-years is a rather aggressive and likely means about easy 20%+ relative earnings loss.

Sure, this looks aggressive. But you need to put it in context: there wasn't any proper/sufficient restructuring in the past, now the remedy needs to be even stronger. It's a bit like curing a human: if he doesn't take his medication while the illness is still not really bad some stronger medication will have to be applied later. Same here (and same for France overall, which procrastinates on reforms since years, heading straight to a much more painful wake-up later)

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 2):
I'm not sure shock therapy is the way to go knowing AF and its labor issues. Something that is more gradual while maybe not ideal for the company is likely be much better accepted socially.

They tried gradual before, that wasn't sufficient and the pilots didn't even fully implement it. Now it's just too late for gradual.

The pilot unions have a narrow way to look at things, they accuse management for the way they run the company and argue "you cannot run an airline against the will of its pilots". I am not saying that is wrong - but you cannot run an airline against market forces or against passengers either. In the end it's a simple mathematical equation: to be profitable costs have to be lower than revenues. Look at Air France: revenue at the bottom-end of the market are dictated by the market price, which is set by the LCCs, so that's tough. In the premium segment there is some price pressure as well, but even people who prefer a nonstop flight from Paris or who need to travel to secondary cities in Europe not served by longhaul airlines from other continents (ME3 etc) were given a bad product by Air France, and the improvement - whilst good and bringing AF on par or to a level superior to many international airlines - is slow. So AF finds itself with a smaller portion of high yield customers. In a nutshell: AF has weak earnings. With weak earnings there is only one other way to become profitable: slash costs. This would be obvious for any airline, but in the case of Air France whose costs are much higher than competitors this is even more urgent. Not only will AF not become profitable but they also won't have the funds needed to invest into further improvements of the product, which is needed to strengthen the revenue. It's a vicious circle that management is trying to break and turn into a virtuous circle. And they offer pilots a share of the benefits, i.e. when the virtuous circle has delivered.

But the unions see this as an unacceptable earnings loss,which is true and not true: pilots will still earn as much money as before, so they won't run into difficulties to pay their bills and they won't have to reduce their standard of living. Sure, they have to work a bit more for that. And I insist on the "a bit": for instance a longhaul pilot would have to make 5 more flights per year. That isn't exactly slavery, especially not if you realize that their colleagues in other airlines in Europe (BA, LH, etc) do that amount of flying already.
 
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RE: Air France Fails To Reach Savings Accord With Crew

Fri Oct 02, 2015 10:53 am

mozart
A very good, straightforward summarized assessment of the situation. Thank you.
 
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RE: Air France Fails To Reach Savings Accord With Crew

Fri Oct 02, 2015 11:13 am

Hi everyone,

I work as a long haul purser with AF, lots have been said about how bad AF/KL as a whole was dealing with the renegociation of its contracts. Our pilots or rather, their representatives, finally came to the negotiating table in late August. The rest of the unions kept saying they wouldn't come to the table as long as the pilots didn't sign the new deal, which indeed is rather aggressive for any airline, and for AF in particular, because close ties with the French government have historically prevented it from going deeper into the reform path.

One example of that is the airport of Marseille whihc is well known for being hugely overstaffed in regard to its traffic, where the CGT, France's most active union, has a strong influence. Each time AF has committed itself to putting an end to practices inherited from the old times of the state owned long gone era, the government, with its 16% stake, imposed both parties to compromise and compromise even more, depending on the general political moment of the country. Also because they were trying to prevent a disaster like the one of the Marseille Port Authority, which is largely due to the CGT's radical position and refusal to adapt to change.

The counter example of that is KLM, which is far more progressive with its negociations. They were, contrary to what most people might think at a farther starting point than us. Ref the multiple threads on how AF was dragging KLM down, how much better KL is on all accounts, which is absolutely not the perception that we have in our planes, considering what we hear from our clients, who for the overwhelming part tend to applaud the combination of both, the fact that we are different thus more efficient together and working with the double hub rather than favouring one culture, one hub and one product over the other.

But in the end, they are far better negociators and their unions are far more modern. Hence the result today, KL will probably grow while AF stagnates and shrinks, but the whole group is reshaping in favour of KL. I personnally have no problems with that. I am proud of working for AF/KL as one of the first global airlines that dared to jump into the consolidation game. I see lots of missed opportunities though, such as not establishing our headquarters and reporting our financial results in Amstelveen in the Netherlands, which would have saved us around 750 million euros in taxes and social benefit associated expenses.

So yes, today, as we fear for our jobs, I have a sour taste in my mouth, because the whole game is unfair. AF has always been asked to report and play by the offer and demand of course, by the liberal rules, while having to conciliate with the French governent requirements. Granted our position and our name are strategic, and our responsibilities are high. But so are our liabilities.

In the end, of course we all feel that for the first time, AF is right in going on with its Plan B, refusing to accept the utra rigid stand taken by the ridiculously intolerant and change-reluctant pilot union SNPL. At the same time, we are now all on the hot seat. Rather ironic for someone who makes a living out of a jumpseat!

Long live AF and congrats to KLM on this sad day
 
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RE: Air France Fails To Reach Savings Accord With Crew

Fri Oct 02, 2015 11:26 am

Ooops, I forgot to mention that our rosters at AF are not exactly what people think either...

Quoting anstar (Reply 1):

I fly 75 to 85 hours, the new deal wants to go to 90 hours per month over the summer season, and NO, I don't and have NEVER worked 2 to 3 trips a month...but rather 4 to 6..on my last trip to Luanda one Emirates cabin crew could not come to her senses after I told her we had arrived that same morning, running the same evening leg back to Paris....just saying...so basically what the Perform plan means for us cabin crew, is indeed close to 19% more flying hours payed at the same global amount, never more than 4 days in a row at home and 2/3 of our trips based on a one night layover, such as Tokyo or Sao Paulo...KL gets that, but then they could spend up to 6 or even 7 nights at home...so yes there should be room for compromise which is why I remain optimistic nonetheless.
 
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RE: Air France Fails To Reach Savings Accord With Crew

Fri Oct 02, 2015 11:31 am

The LAD "day layover" is a special one-off case, LH does the same, owing to the low frequency of the route (now 3, until recently 2), the high cost of LAD hotels and the above all the fact that the aircraft also remains at LAD all day long, to cater for the schedule needs of the "oil rotators". EK with higher frequency and different customer focus is no comparison here.
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mozart
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RE: Air France Fails To Reach Savings Accord With Crew

Fri Oct 02, 2015 11:57 am

Quoting Fly-K (Reply 13):

The LAD "day layover" is a special one-off case, LH does the same, owing to the low frequency of the route (now 3, until recently 2), the high cost of LAD hotels and the above all the fact that the aircraft also remains at LAD all day long, to cater for the schedule needs of the "oil rotators". EK with higher frequency and different customer focus is no comparison here.

Exactly.

What other destination in the network is there with similar duration of flight but *daily* operations where crews fly back the same night?
 
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RE: Air France Fails To Reach Savings Accord With Crew

Fri Oct 02, 2015 12:45 pm

LAD is just one example to show that AF is no exception, and your replies show it too, LH being another one. Nobody said that rosters at EK are a cruise down the Rhine
PNR is another one, but granted, we don't have daily flights.
ABJ is a third example where we had 10 weekly flights and the 3 additional ones were operated overnight both ways with a day use layover. These might be scattered examples and we all know extreme example are often used to try to bias the debate...on all sides, right?

There are hoards of other comparisons elsewhere in cases where there are 1 to 2 weekly flights where crews spend 4 to 5 nights waiting for their next flight to show up, such as XLAirways at destinations such as PUJ, SSA and so on

My intent is just to show that contrary to what some people, particularly on this forum, like to think, we don't spend our lives at Club Med waiting for our next strike to dead head back home.
 
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RE: Air France Fails To Reach Savings Accord With Crew

Fri Oct 02, 2015 1:12 pm

Merci, fa4af, for your informative posts! Keep us updated, please. And all the best...
 
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RE: Air France Fails To Reach Savings Accord With Crew

Fri Oct 02, 2015 1:19 pm

AF is a sad and pathetic mess and I am so sorry that our friends at KL have to be hitched to them. The inefficiencies within the AF/KL Group are nothing short of astounding. Many individuals both within and outside the company are amazed at how two airlines can be operated under the same parent grouping with such an extreme level of cost overlap, duplication of systems, outdated technology and general inefficiency. And if you listen to AF/KL leadership speaking at media-attended public events, it is clear from their comments that they are in total denial of the fact that they are no longer relevant in today's marketplace. AF/KL leadership are no closer to having a workable long-term business model than they were a decade ago. No one seems to understand just how close AF is getting to extinction.

And I will say it.... the unions are certainly not helping partner with the company in developing a workable business model which would allow the company to no only survive, but actually compete and thrive. Unions and management had better both wake up before it is too late. Certainly the unions will not claim victory if they prevail, but there are no jobs for their members and no more AF/KL Group.
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RE: Air France Fails To Reach Savings Accord With Crew

Fri Oct 02, 2015 3:05 pm

French prime minister Valls called for a resumption of negotiations, and the setting of hard deadlines for these measures should be avoided to allow time to management and to unions to talk.
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RE: Air France Fails To Reach Savings Accord With Crew

Fri Oct 02, 2015 3:38 pm

Quoting fa4af (Reply 15):
My intent is just to show that contrary to what some people, particularly on this forum, like to think, we don't spend our lives at Club Med waiting for our next strike to dead head back home.

You're wasting your time posting explanations here. It's well known that most posters here are virulently anti-crew, anti-union and pro management.

Good luck with your action though. Been there, got the t-shirt.
 
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RE: Air France Fails To Reach Savings Accord With Crew

Fri Oct 02, 2015 4:50 pm

Quoting fa4af (Reply 15):
My intent is just to show that contrary to what some people, particularly on this forum, like to think, we don't spend our lives at Club Med waiting for our next strike to dead head back home.

I don't think that, and I do not have a particular bias towards one side or another. I can understand both sides. And we need to distinguish between what people "think" and what are "facts".

Facts:
- the company has not made one single Euro of profits since 2008. Instead, it has burned more than 6 billion EUR. The comparable peers (IAG, LH Group) in that same period have earned billions of EUR. So the situation *is* bad.
- factor one that makes life difficult for AF: particularly high cost of labour in France, and involvement by the government. None of this is helpful, and it's the fault of noone at AF
- factor two that makes life difficult for AF: management inability for many years to define and invest into a sufficiently attractive product; especially the high yielding premium segment lagged behind competitors (and partly still does); getting (much) better now, but too slow and very (too?) late. Moreover, management's inability to define and implement an operating model that befits the company's economic and competitive reality. They were lax with employees, did not restructure and bring down corporate overhead, attacked structural inefficiencies too late and too timidly (e.g., 3 regional carriers) and when they did it was only to come up with a stillborn solution (HOP, operating for far too long under 3 different AOCs), huge financial debt reducing room for manoeuvring. The pilots and crew cannot be blamed for that, this is management's fault
- factor three that makes life difficult for AF: workforce that is very reluctant to accept change. Constant whining and a great sense of entitlement by many unions. They are partly responsible for the higher cost base, which is a burden for AF. Yes, some change was accepted, but far too little, which brings them where they are today.
- note that I do *not* include high speed trains, ME3 and LCC, because this is an issue for many other airlines as well but they still manage to be profitable (IAG, LH)

So it would be unfair to blame only the pilots or other groups of staff. It's also management and an environment where government meddling and unhelpful decisions that have made life difficult for AF.

And then there may be the things that people think, imagine, stereotype, fantasize about, etc. But frankly, with these facts we don't need any other reasons from the land of speculation to explain why the company stands with the back to the wall.

Quoting TYCOON (Reply 10):

mozart
A very good, straightforward summarized assessment of the situation. Thank you.

Wow, coming from you, I take that as a compliment  
 
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RE: Air France Fails To Reach Savings Accord With Crew

Fri Oct 02, 2015 5:28 pm

http://www.freeenterprise.com/manage...eo-who-saved-continental-airlines/

We lost something like $600 million in 1994. In 1995, we made $225 million—with the same people and the same airplanes. So, it wasn’t anything wrong with the employees. It was the management—and it always is.”
 
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RE: Air France Fails To Reach Savings Accord With Crew

Fri Oct 02, 2015 8:25 pm

Following meeting of Air France work councils, all 3 ground staff unions - CGT, FO and UNSO have called for strike action to protect jobs following CEO Juniac comments to media that 2,900 ground staff positions could be eliminated.

Such direct dismissal of staff is a grave threat as company has not dismissed staff outright since 1993 strikes which also cost job of then CEO Attali his position. Instead AF has relied on retirement packages to reduce staff numbers. Already AF has 9,000 less staff in last 3-years.
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RE: Air France Fails To Reach Savings Accord With Crew

Fri Oct 02, 2015 8:45 pm

KLM pilots have already had 3 years of pay freeze and have just agreed to 3 more years of a freeze and flying up to 10% more hours/days a year, plus a higher retirement age which will significantly hold up promotions the coming years, plus less pilots in the crew on some of the long haul flights. Plus the pilots will give a portion of their pension money to KLM the coming years to invest in the company with it. They've signed for this and more a couple weeks ago.

So why don't the french follow with also something significant?

[Edited 2015-10-02 13:52:09]
 
anstar
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RE: Air France Fails To Reach Savings Accord With Crew

Fri Oct 02, 2015 8:57 pm

Quoting fa4af (Reply 12):
I fly 75 to 85 hours, the new deal wants to go to 90 hours per month over the summer season, and NO, I don't and have NEVER worked 2 to 3 trips a month...but rather 4 to 6.

I'm just going by what fellow AF cabin crews have said in lines for immigration down route. At VS as an example crews will likely get 100-115 hours a month in the summer and upto 6 or 7 trips.

[Edited 2015-10-02 13:57:49]
 
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RE: Air France Fails To Reach Savings Accord With Crew

Fri Oct 02, 2015 9:00 pm

Quoting Amsterdam (Reply 23):
So why don't the french follow with also something significant?

They have.

We've had many threads here on A.net and the French staff have given back to Air France continually the last several years. As mentioned prior AF today has 9,000 less employees than 2011, with all types of other adjustments in salary and work practices.

The company created various reform plans - remember 'Transform 2015' launched in May 2012 and now the 'Perform 2020' plan.

Impression I get is that staff are actually getting tired of continually being pushed for changes by the company. They have already been making changes in these plans, yet company keeps returning for more out of their pockets.

Frankly, I see this as more a failure by this management team for not defining a clear picture of what their plans were back in 2012 and pursue such but instead every year coming out with new concepts and revisions to the path of the enterprise.
It seems one day they want to be a low cost, another day global full service carrier, then they say they must open bases all over France, but only few months later decided to close the regional bases, etc. Add in the same yo-yo practices with cargo, Hop, Transavia France its easy to see how everyone from customer to employees is confused.
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anstar
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RE: Air France Fails To Reach Savings Accord With Crew

Fri Oct 02, 2015 9:05 pm

Quoting Amsterdam (Reply 23):
plus less pilots in the crew on some of the long haul flights.

Again with VS as an example its 3 pilots to HKG. I believe KL still have 4 ?

Also with KL I was surprised that short haul flight crew seem to be able to fly more sectors/hours than some of the cabin crew. I think cabin crew could do 3 sectors or 6 hours of flying or something???
 
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RE: Air France Fails To Reach Savings Accord With Crew

Fri Oct 02, 2015 9:14 pm

I agree with Mozart, the time for gradual implementation passed. IMHO, about ten years ago. AF needs to reform.

The unions are denying the inevitable. Plan B is simply a survival strategy. In transportation, high cost providers fail.

Did I read right that AF/KLM lost 638 million in six months and a similar, albeit lesser amount last year? Time for a restructuring bankruptcy!

Quoting anstar (Reply 1):

30% less productive is a poor showing.

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Amsterdam
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RE: Air France Fails To Reach Savings Accord With Crew

Fri Oct 02, 2015 9:21 pm

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 25):

They have.

We've had many threads here on A.net and the French staff have given back to Air France continually the last several years. As mentioned prior AF today has 9,000 less employees than 2011, with all types of other adjustments in salary and work practices.

The company created various reform plans - remember 'Transform 2015' launched in May 2012 and now the 'Perform 2020' plan.

Impression I get is that staff are actually getting tired of continually being pushed for changes by the company. They have already been making changes in these plans, yet company keeps returning for more out of their pockets.

Frankly, I see this as more a failure by this management team for not defining a clear picture of what their plans were back in 2012 and pursue such but instead every year coming out with new concepts and revisions to the path of the enterprise.
It seems one day they want to be a low cost, another day global full service carrier, then they say they must open bases all over France, but only few months later decided to close the regional bases, etc. Add in the same yo-yo practices with cargo, Hop, Transavia France its easy to see how everyone from customer to employees is confused.



But what is the answer then to turn the company really around?
Is it not true that labour costs at AF are significantly higher than at BA and LH?
I don't know.
I don't have the facts.
And of course it can't be done only by staff. A good management and strategy is also a must.

[Edited 2015-10-02 14:23:17]
 
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RE: Air France Fails To Reach Savings Accord With Crew

Fri Oct 02, 2015 9:57 pm

Quoting anstar (Reply 3):
Austrian have been equally as agressive with their crews.

What Lufthansa did there was really disgraceful, they unilaterally applied the Tyrolean work agreement on it's Austrian staff. Their Austrian staff was in shock. Later a judge called what LH did as illegal.


"A top legal official at the European Court of Justice (ECJ) advised judges on tuesday to rule that old Austrian Airlines collective wage agreements are valid until a new one is agreed.

The ECJ has been asked to rule whether Austrian Airlines, owned by Lufthansa, could unilaterally cancel a previous agreement when it transferred its flight operations to its lower-cost Tyrolean Airways subsidiary in 2012."

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/...strian-court-idUSKBN0EE16H20140603
 
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RE: Air France Fails To Reach Savings Accord With Crew

Fri Oct 02, 2015 10:49 pm

I see it as imperative the management at Air France paint a coherent long term vision and layout their plans for the future of the airline in order to get broad employees, government and customer buy in.

Its indeed been a zig-zag road that brought AFKL to where it is today, and unless they can rationalize why they need the changes they are asking for and what they are going to do having achieved such changes this management team is not worth listening to imo.

We've all seen how failing to get buy in from parties can destroy airlines, so unless management can figure out how to gain acceptance of their plans, I really dont see them achieving much except continued downward corporate descent.
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RE: Air France Fails To Reach Savings Accord With Crew

Sat Oct 03, 2015 4:05 am

So when is the next AF strike? Surely it's coming soon.

If some of the numbers folks have posted are true--the productivity of the AF crew is ~30% LOWER than their peers with HIGHER pay. That's not sustainable and the change is going to painful across the board but that has to be better than watching AF go under and losing your job.

They need a plan and fast, before they end up like Transaero this week.

I sure hope this doesn't end up bringing KLM down. They run a great operation.
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RE: Air France Fails To Reach Savings Accord With Crew

Sat Oct 03, 2015 5:36 am

The comments made here regarding the relative efficiency of Air France and its staff (and especially vis a vis (a french term   )) KLM, have usually followed through with zero statistical data. Where is this information coming from? I heard it on airliners.net? Or, I've actually seen the books...

Quoting DL747400 (Reply 17):
AF is a sad and pathetic mess and I am so sorry that our friends at KL have to be hitched to them. The inefficiencies within the AF/KL Group are nothing short of astounding.

I tried to comb though the Air France annual report, such as it is (all 320 pages of it, and besides, it's in french...), and determine how "our friends" at KLM are suffering at the hands of Air France. Couldn't find much, but it must be true... KLM employees sick out at a rate of 5.64% compared to Air France employees at 3.81% (page 132-133).

Yes, it's a stupid and probably insignificant statistic, but anyway, I found it funny.

Quoting Amsterdam (Reply 28):
I don't know.
I don't have the facts.
And of course it can't be done only by staff. A good management and strategy is also a must.

An honest post...thank you!

Quoting northwestEWR (Reply 31):
So when is the next AF strike? Surely it's coming soon.

Yes... the day after Lufthansa pilots go on strike. Again.
 
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mercure1
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RE: Air France Fails To Reach Savings Accord With Crew

Sat Oct 03, 2015 4:51 pm

Five unions of Air France filed a strike notice for Monday, 5 October, which will be the day that board will meet to discuss plan B.

Per CEO in interview fleet changes in plan B include withdraw of 5 longhaul frames in 2016 and 9 in 2017 along with deferment of 787 order. Initially 5 longhaul routes would be terminated.
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DDR
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RE: Air France Fails To Reach Savings Accord With Crew

Sat Oct 03, 2015 5:47 pm

I think management is to blame for the losses at AF. This is the national airline of France. Think about it. France is known for culture, good food and wine. AF should be able to get a premium on fares. The airline should market itself as a high class carrier with excellent on board service and products.

Maybe it wouldn't work but I know whenever I think of France I think of it as being a classy and sophisticated country. AF should be the same.
 
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lightsaber
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RE: Air France Fails To Reach Savings Accord With Crew

Sat Oct 03, 2015 6:26 pm

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 33):

Strikes won't fix the fundamental issues.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 30):

It is a government interference and management issue as well as productivity and pay. Nothing will be fixed unless the French government first declares they will not interfere. Otherwise, the issues will just snowball.

Lightsaber
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par13del
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RE: Air France Fails To Reach Savings Accord With Crew

Sat Oct 03, 2015 6:58 pm

Quoting mozart (Reply 20):
Facts:
- the company has not made one single Euro of profits since 2008. Instead, it has burned more than 6 billion EUR.

So where have they been getting operating capital, additional loans or issuing new stock / options?
7 years is a long time to be loosing money, I am assuming - mother of all evils - that they were not breaking even.
 
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northwestEWR
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RE: Air France Fails To Reach Savings Accord With Crew

Sat Oct 03, 2015 8:39 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 35):
Strikes won't fix the fundamental issues.

DING DING DING.

Quoting DDR (Reply 34):

I think management is to blame for the losses at AF. This is the national airline of France. Think about it. France is known for culture, good food and wine. AF should be able to get a premium on fares. The airline should market itself as a high class carrier with excellent on board service and products.

Maybe it wouldn't work but I know whenever I think of France I think of it as being a classy and sophisticated country. AF should be the same.

Agreed and I think Air France *could* get there but they need to get their costs in-line with their competitors before they can invest billions into improving the product. Constant denial by the unions is killing any chance of moving forward.
Northwest Airlines - Now You're Flying Smart
 
bobdino
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RE: Air France Fails To Reach Savings Accord With Crew

Sat Oct 03, 2015 9:12 pm

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 18):
French prime minister Valls called for a resumption of negotiations, and the setting of hard deadlines for these measures should be avoided to allow time to management and to unions to talk.

He also said that the pilots need to face up to their responsibilities, that Air France has to change and reform, and that the company is in danger.

I suspect that the unions might find themselves with a little less government support than previously.
 
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lightsaber
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RE: Air France Fails To Reach Savings Accord With Crew

Sat Oct 03, 2015 9:47 pm

I'm having Eastern Deja Vu. Unions and management so at odds there is no solution.

Transportation is brutal to high cost providers. If the French government doesn't let AF be run as a business, then eventually the market will make the reforms happen. The more delayed the reforms, the more rapid they will be.

Serious question, how many more years could these losses persist? Even PanAm eventually burned through decades of built up profits.

Quoting northwestEWR (Reply 37):

It is a catch 22, to be competitive billions must be invested but there is no business case to do so until productivity is dramatically improved.

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Summa767
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RE: Air France Fails To Reach Savings Accord With Crew

Sat Oct 03, 2015 9:59 pm

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 33):

Per CEO in interview fleet changes in plan B include withdraw of 5 longhaul frames in 2016 and 9 in 2017 along with deferment of 787 order. Initially 5 longhaul routes would be terminated.

Any word on the possible routes yo be cut?
I only have a rumour that SCL could be one of them.
 
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mercure1
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RE: Air France Fails To Reach Savings Accord With Crew

Sun Oct 04, 2015 12:37 am

Quoting bobdino (Reply 38):
He also said that the pilots need to face up to their responsibilities, that Air France has to change and reform, and that the company is in danger.

If he singled out the pilots, that was a rather foolish comment as the current impasse is with every single AF union from pilots to cabin crew to ground staff.

Not a single union in the work council (representatives of all dozen plus unions) has agreed to the conditions the company has demanded so unlike last year when it was the pilots and only pilots were strike, today its the company versus every union on property.

Quoting summa767 (Reply 40):
Any word on the possible routes yo be cut? I only have a rumour that SCL could be one of them.

No idea but management was quoted a few months ago stating large portion of longhaul routes were loss making, so there should be ample options to select.

Per Q2 results the worst markets were Latin America (mostly due Brazil), Africa due weak demand from oil & gas sector and also Japan was soft.
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northwestEWR
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RE: Air France Fails To Reach Savings Accord With Crew

Sun Oct 04, 2015 3:11 am

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 39):
I'm having Eastern Deja Vu. Unions and management so at odds there is no solution.

Me too! Complete dysfunction between management and labor with labor so entrenched they'd rather see the carrier go down than accept the changing reality.

Now I'm an airline employee too and we deserve to get paid fairly but Air France's employees are doing upwards of 30% LESS work for MORE pay than their competitors. That ain't right.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 39):
It is a catch 22, to be competitive billions must be invested but there is no business case to do so until productivity is dramatically improved.

Exactly. They're in real trouble. BA has been keeping up with the changing times and has kept their investments current. It's really hard to dig out of that hole once you're in it.
Northwest Airlines - Now You're Flying Smart
 
Amsterdam
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RE: Air France Fails To Reach Savings Accord With Crew

Mon Oct 05, 2015 11:01 am

There are two photos on this Dutch news site of what they say is a AF manager fleeing personnel without a shirt, today.

http://www.volkskrant.nl/buitenland/...
-na-geschrapte-banen~a4156546/
 
factsonly
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RE: Air France Fails To Reach Savings Accord With Crew

Mon Oct 05, 2015 11:29 am

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 27):
Did I read right that AF/KLM lost 638 million in six months and a similar, albeit lesser amount last year? Time for a restructuring bankruptcy!

A restructuring bankruptcy only exists in the USA, as Chapter 11.

In Europe corporate life is much simpler: LIVE or DIE............Success or failure................



......there are no get out of jail cards - at the expense of others - for European carriers.

Remember SR, SN, MA....and the others........
 
Richards2K14
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RE: Air France Fails To Reach Savings Accord With Crew

Mon Oct 05, 2015 11:44 am

I agree AF management are to blame! But striking...again?! It seems to be a national pastime in France!

I remember someone saying once "where would you be without rules" and the answer was "France".

They are not helping themselves, typical of their country. This wouldn't happen in the UK or Germany!
 
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RE: Air France Fails To Reach Savings Accord With Crew

Mon Oct 05, 2015 11:59 am

Quoting mozart (Reply 20):

If I may add another difficulty for AF to your list, it would be operating out of a rather dysfunctional hub, CDG, which is the result of many expansions and afterthought modifications without ever having a global development plan. It was initially laid out as an O&D airport, not a hub. It is only recently that (most) EU operations have been consolidated into F though you still have some out of that inconvenient and remote G. Baggage losses are a trademark of the airport, etc etc. When you compare to the super efficient operation at AMS...

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 25):
Frankly, I see this as more a failure by this management team for not defining a clear picture of what their plans were back in 2012 and pursue such but instead every year coming out with new concepts and revisions to the path of the enterprise.
It seems one day they want to be a low cost, another day global full service carrier, then they say they must open bases all over France, but only few months later decided to close the regional bases, etc. Add in the same yo-yo practices with cargo, Hop, Transavia France its easy to see how everyone from customer to employees is confused.

Agree that management has lost all credibility with their frequent and erratic strategy changes over the past years. Why should they be believed now? Why should this new plan work, when all others of the past years have not?
 
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mercure1
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RE: Air France Fails To Reach Savings Accord With Crew

Mon Oct 05, 2015 3:51 pm

Quoting Amsterdam (Reply 43):
There are two photos on this Dutch news site of what they say is a AF manager fleeing personnel without a shirt, today.

About 100 of several thousand protesters gathered at Air France headquarters entered the facility and broke up board meeting and chased off some executives.
Quite some drama.
mercure f-wtcc
 
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LAXintl
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RE: Air France Fails To Reach Savings Accord With Crew

Mon Oct 05, 2015 4:32 pm

At least they were not held hostage as I've seen done in France before.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
slvrblt
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RE: Air France Fails To Reach Savings Accord With Crew

Mon Oct 05, 2015 4:40 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 39):
'm having Eastern Deja Vu. Unions and management so at odds there is no solution.

Transportation is brutal to high cost providers. If the French government doesn't let AF be run as a business, then eventually the market will make the reforms happen. The more delayed the reforms, the more rapid they will be.

You beat me to it.........the ghost of Charlie Bryan rears its fearsome head............
..everything works out in the end.

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