Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
717atOGG
Topic Author
Posts: 883
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2015 2:10 am

Why Doesn't WN Fly To Hawaii?

Thu Oct 01, 2015 10:47 pm

There is plenty of pax demand and some 738's are ETOPS configured. Why don't they do it?
A320/321, A332, 712, 73G/8/9ER, 744, 752/3, E145, E175, CR9
 
airliner371
Posts: 2404
Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2012 9:53 pm

RE: Why Doesn't WN Fly To Hawaii?

Thu Oct 01, 2015 10:50 pm

Hawaii is on the list of 50 potential destinations Southwest is looking at right now but it just isn't a priority for them right now. They are very happy expanding in Mexico, Latin America and the Caribbean. It will happen, just give it time.
 
sw733
Posts: 5881
Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2004 6:19 am

RE: Why Doesn't WN Fly To Hawaii?

Fri Oct 02, 2015 12:56 am

The planes may be ETOPS approved, but I don't believe WN is an ETOPS approved airline yet. There is more to ETOPS than just the plane itself.
 
TUSDawg23
Posts: 272
Joined: Sun May 30, 2010 2:43 am

RE: Why Doesn't WN Fly To Hawaii?

Fri Oct 02, 2015 1:19 am

Quoting 717atOGG (Thread starter):
There is plenty of pax demand and some 738's are ETOPS configured. Why don't they do it?

WN's best chance to succeed in Hawaii in my opinion is to pick second-tier cities out of California like OAK, SAN, SJC, SMF, etc. and go to head to head with AS. WN has a much better network and better connecting opportunities for mainland bound pax. I think they could unseat AS from these markets and have them retreat back to PDX and SEA if they go about it the right way.
 
UA444
Posts: 2997
Joined: Sun Mar 09, 2014 7:03 am

RE: Why Doesn't WN Fly To Hawaii?

Fri Oct 02, 2015 1:44 am

Quoting TUSdawg23 (Reply 3):

Could definitely see SAN-HNL working for WN.
 
717atOGG
Topic Author
Posts: 883
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2015 2:10 am

RE: Why Doesn't WN Fly To Hawaii?

Fri Oct 02, 2015 2:41 am

Quoting UA444 (Reply 4):

Same with PHX and LAS-HNL. Also, since no airline serves it, LAS-OGG might be a good route.
A320/321, A332, 712, 73G/8/9ER, 744, 752/3, E145, E175, CR9
 
UA444
Posts: 2997
Joined: Sun Mar 09, 2014 7:03 am

RE: Why Doesn't WN Fly To Hawaii?

Fri Oct 02, 2015 3:10 am

Quoting 717atOGG (Reply 5):

Does 738 have range for that with reasonable load?
 
User avatar
BN727227Ultra
Posts: 695
Joined: Fri Jan 10, 2014 7:15 pm

RE: Why Doesn't WN Fly To Hawaii?

Fri Oct 02, 2015 3:39 am

Lease a 787 for MDW-HNL... 
 
MrBuzzcut
Posts: 134
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2008 8:25 am

RE: Why Doesn't WN Fly To Hawaii?

Fri Oct 02, 2015 3:52 am

Quoting TUSdawg23 (Reply 3):
WN's best chance to succeed in Hawaii in my opinion is to pick second-tier cities out of California like OAK, SAN, SJC, SMF, etc. and go to head to head with AS. WN has a much better network and better connecting opportunities for mainland bound pax. I think they could unseat AS from these markets and have them retreat back to PDX and SEA if they go about it the right way.

They'd be competing with HA on all of those routes as well as AS. Is there enough demand for three operators?
Now, I've always wondered if WN and HA could do some sort of codeshare agreement, but the issue I see with that is HA tends to get to the mainland at night and leave for the islands in the morning, making connections problematic.

I'd love to see WN flying to Hawaii, I'm just not sure where they'd do it that doesn't already have a couple of operators to choose from.
 
User avatar
DolphinAir747
Posts: 1901
Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2012 10:07 pm

RE: Why Doesn't WN Fly To Hawaii?

Fri Oct 02, 2015 4:05 am

Quoting 717atOGG (Reply 5):


Same with PHX and LAS-HNL. Also, since no airline serves it, LAS-OGG might be a good route.


Surprised no one serves LAS OGG with the large Hawaiian diaspora in Nevada.
 
ericm2031
Posts: 1398
Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2012 8:46 am

RE: Why Doesn't WN Fly To Hawaii?

Fri Oct 02, 2015 4:28 am

I think they have a lot more opportunities with less competition north and south of the border currently. With the cities that the 737 could do mainland to Hawaii, there is already lots of competition.

I think they do need to watch out for when HA gets its A321NEOs because that will give them the chance to start serving the smaller second tier cities they can't currently with twin aisles that WN would probably want to target for themselves.
 
SXDFC
Posts: 2032
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2007 6:07 pm

RE: Why Doesn't WN Fly To Hawaii?

Fri Oct 02, 2015 4:56 am

Quoting sw733 (Reply 2):
The planes may be ETOPS approved, but I don't believe WN is an ETOPS approved airline yet. There is more to ETOPS than just the plane itself.

That's correct, as of now WN doesn't have ETOPS approval. Word has it the 737-8MAX is going to be the A/C of choice to go to Hawaii.
 
azjubilee
Posts: 3721
Joined: Sat Apr 29, 2000 5:26 am

RE: Why Doesn't WN Fly To Hawaii?

Fri Oct 02, 2015 5:27 am

Quoting 717atOGG (Reply 5):
Same with PHX and LAS-HNL. Also, since no airline serves it, LAS-OGG might be a good route.
Quoting DolphinAir747 (Reply 9):
Surprised no one serves LAS OGG with the large Hawaiian diaspora in Nevada.

HAL flew this route twice a week for several years, but discontinued in favor of funneling everyone to the 17/wk flights from HNL.
 
Wingtips56
Posts: 1291
Joined: Thu Dec 16, 2010 1:26 am

RE: Why Doesn't WN Fly To Hawaii?

Fri Oct 02, 2015 7:16 am

Quoting UA444 (Reply 6):
Does 738 have range for that with reasonable load?

Yes, AS is flying them now, and AQ did it before with the -800 between SMF and OGG. (They leased one. The rest were -700s.)
Worked for WestAir, Apollo Airways, Desert Pacific, Western, AirCal and American Airlines (Retired). Flight Memory: 181 airports, 92 airlines, 78 a/c types, 403 routes, 58 countries (by air), 6 continents. 1,119,414 passenger miles.

Home airport : CEC
 
Passedv1
Posts: 665
Joined: Sun Oct 07, 2012 3:40 am

RE: Why Doesn't WN Fly To Hawaii?

Fri Oct 02, 2015 7:42 am

Quoting 717atOGG (Reply 5):
Same with PHX and LAS-HNL. Also, since no airline serves it, LAS-OGG might be a good route.

LAS & PHX to the island is difficult with a 737 especially during the winter. As long as the MAX achieves it's marketed range increase, LAS & PHX should be easy while also opening up BOI, GEG, SLC
 
flaps30
Posts: 189
Joined: Mon May 25, 2009 12:33 am

RE: Why Doesn't WN Fly To Hawaii?

Fri Oct 02, 2015 12:41 pm

Quoting sw733 (Reply 2):
The planes may be ETOPS approved, but I don't believe WN is an ETOPS approved airline yet.

That does not make any sense. If some of their planes are ETOPS approved, how could the airline not be ETOPS approved? Don't some of their ETOPS aircraft fly to Puerto Rico and other destinations now?
every day is a good day to fly
 
User avatar
par13del
Posts: 10337
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:14 pm

RE: Why Doesn't WN Fly To Hawaii?

Fri Oct 02, 2015 12:48 pm

Quoting MrBuzzcut (Reply 8):
but the issue I see with that is HA tends to get to the mainland at night and leave for the islands in the morning, making connections problematic.

So HA's primary focus is for clients who originate in the islands, mainland carriers primary focus would be clients who originate on the mainland, so both can co-exist with no problem.

Quoting flaps30 (Reply 15):
That does not make any sense. If some of their planes are ETOPS approved, how could the airline not be ETOPS approved? Don't some of their ETOPS aircraft fly to Puerto Rico and other destinations now?

The engineers and designers at Boeing built the a/c to ETOPS standard, now WN has to confirm that its staff can maintain the a/c to ETOPS standards.
See AA's issue with a non-ETOPS A321 being despatched on a ETOPS route, airlines have requirements to be met, it is not all about the a/c.
 
flaps30
Posts: 189
Joined: Mon May 25, 2009 12:33 am

RE: Why Doesn't WN Fly To Hawaii?

Fri Oct 02, 2015 12:54 pm

Quoting par13del (Reply 16):
The engineers and designers at Boeing built the a/c to ETOPS standard, now WN has to confirm that its staff can maintain the a/c to ETOPS standards.

Again, hasnt WN already confirmed they can maintain the a/c to ETOPS standards by actually flying them to different destinations now.? Your example of AA flying a non-ETOPS A321 does not make sense because the aircraft you mentioned was NOT an ETOPS approved aircraft.
every day is a good day to fly
 
maxpower1954
Posts: 1067
Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 1:14 am

RE: Why Doesn't WN Fly To Hawaii?

Fri Oct 02, 2015 1:15 pm

Quoting flaps30 (Reply 15):
That does not make any sense. If some of their planes are ETOPS approved, how could the airline not be ETOPS approved? Don't some of their ETOPS aircraft fly to Puerto Rico and other destinations now?

ETOPS is not required for routes from the Northeast to SJU. Extended overwater (greater than 162 nm from land) basically rafts and survival gear meets all requirements.
 
wnflyguy
Posts: 1962
Joined: Thu Feb 10, 2011 7:58 pm

RE: Why Doesn't WN Fly To Hawaii?

Fri Oct 02, 2015 1:58 pm

WN ETOPS Hawaii plans got put on the back burner to the FL integration and 717 replacement. WN technology still behind the RED EYE flying curve. But soon the new "Lone star" system and Skymax network planning systems will be up and running so this should clear the way for Hawaii service. Last hurdle will be proving runs and FAA certification needed for ETOPS Hawaii flying.

But unfortunately with all that said I don't think we will see Hawaii until the 737-MAX .

Flyguy
My Wings are clipped just another Retired Airline person. The Ultimate Armchair out of the loop airline industry geek. Aloha Mr Hand!
 
superjeff
Posts: 1372
Joined: Fri Feb 05, 2010 2:14 am

RE: Why Doesn't WN Fly To Hawaii?

Fri Oct 02, 2015 2:41 pm

Quoting DolphinAir747 (Reply 9):
Surprised no one serves LAS OGG with the large Hawaiian diaspora in Nevada.

Most of the Hawaii - Las Vegas O&D travel is Honolulu based. Maui (and to a lesser extent, the Big Island and also Kauai) have relatively little population based. Their mainland service is by and large mainland originating.
 
jetwet1
Posts: 3221
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2007 4:42 am

RE: Why Doesn't WN Fly To Hawaii?

Fri Oct 02, 2015 3:14 pm

Quoting TUSdawg23 (Reply 3):
WN's best chance to succeed in Hawaii in my opinion is to pick second-tier cities out of California like OAK, SAN, SJC, SMF, etc. and go to head to head with AS. WN has a much better network and better connecting opportunities for mainland bound pax.

Why not go head to head out of LAX ? There is no reason IMHO for WN to go for the small cities, WN is the 900lb gorilla in Cali, they don't have to play it in the same way Allegaint did.

Quoting DolphinAir747 (Reply 9):

Surprised no one serves LAS OGG with the large Hawaiian diaspora in Nevada.
Quoting azjubilee (Reply 12):
HAL flew this route twice a week for several years, but discontinued in favor of funneling everyone to the 17/wk flights from HNL.
Quoting superjeff (Reply 20):
Most of the Hawaii - Las Vegas O&D travel is Honolulu based. Maui (and to a lesser extent, the Big Island and also Kauai) have relatively little population based. Their mainland service is by and large mainland originating.

Superjeff beat me to it, as we discussed over in the LAS thread the Hawaii market is very much focused on HNL and Pearl City, for the other islands, it's easier to route them onto the HA and Omni flights.
 
airzona11
Posts: 1753
Joined: Wed Dec 17, 2014 5:44 am

RE: Why Doesn't WN Fly To Hawaii?

Fri Oct 02, 2015 3:54 pm

Quoting jetwet1 (Reply 21):
Why not go head to head out of LAX ? There is no reason IMHO for WN to go for the small cities, WN is the 900lb gorilla in Cali, they don't have to play it in the same way Allegaint did.

Exactly what I am thinking. Southwest is the largest carrier intra-CA. People still group WN in category of Frontier, Spirit, etc when it comes to competing with the US3, when domestically, they are the largest carrier.
 
MKIAZ
Posts: 278
Joined: Thu May 01, 2014 5:24 am

RE: Why Doesn't WN Fly To Hawaii?

Fri Oct 02, 2015 3:54 pm

Could the 738 do SNA-HNL? Kinda doubt it, but they'd do well there I'm sure.
 
INFINITI329
Posts: 2519
Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2012 12:53 am

RE: Why Doesn't WN Fly To Hawaii?

Fri Oct 02, 2015 4:11 pm

Quoting MrBuzzcut (Reply 8):
They'd be competing with HA on all of those routes as well as AS. Is there enough demand for three operators?
Now, I've always wondered if WN and HA could do some sort of codeshare agreement, but the issue I see with that is HA tends to get to the mainland at night and leave for the islands in the morning, making

WN & HA currently interline on cargo so there is already a relationship there. A true codeshare could be beneficial to both parties. WN would gain access to Hawaii and HA would benefit off WN's feed into their larger stations. WN carried the second most passengers in the world in 2014. HA tapping into that would be huge. As far scheduling WN and HA would hash that out that wouldn't be a huge biggie. But before we get to ahead of ourselves WN pilots would have relax the codeshare language in the new contract.
 
User avatar
DocLightning
Posts: 21836
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 8:51 am

RE: Why Doesn't WN Fly To Hawaii?

Fri Oct 02, 2015 4:15 pm

Quoting SXDFC (Reply 11):
That's correct, as of now WN doesn't have ETOPS approval.

That should not be difficult for WN, though. They don't have ETOPS approval because they haven't sought it.

Arguably, WN has more collective experience operating the 737 than any other airline in the world. They probably even taught Boeing a few things about the 737's operational characteristics. If any airline has the necessary 737 operational experience to gain ETOPS approval, it's WN.

However, like AS, WN would have to start to maintain a subfleet of ETOPS 737s. Overall, WN's model is built around having as few subfleets as possible to simplify rotations and allow for rapid substituting of airframes should technical or operational issues arise. WN has, of course, had to deal with subfleets many times and so they can do this when they need to. Switching from the 732 to the 733 was the first time they had to do this, but then they had to switch to the 73G and now the 738 and soon the 738M.

WN will serve Hawaii soon. As for market share, I think that the airline with the most to lose from WN entering the game isn't AS, but UA. UA is currently the largest Mainlaind-to-Hawaii carrier so they have the farthest to fall. And while AS and WN may compete on O&D services to Hawaii, WN, like UA, will have a massive domestic feed to those routes.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
BravoOne
Posts: 4094
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2013 2:27 pm

RE: Why Doesn't WN Fly To Hawaii?

Fri Oct 02, 2015 4:16 pm

Quoting MKIAZ (Reply 23):
Could the 738 do SNA-HNL? Kinda doubt it, but they'd do well there I'm sure.

Isn't that route being flown by someone else with the -700 or-800? The -700 is a much better performer than the -800 or 900.

I don't think it's a given that SWA will be hugely successful in the islands and you can bet your bottom dollar that Alaska is not going to roll over and play dead. Ditto for Hawaiian, DAL or UAL.
 
azjubilee
Posts: 3721
Joined: Sat Apr 29, 2000 5:26 am

RE: Why Doesn't WN Fly To Hawaii?

Fri Oct 02, 2015 4:53 pm

Quoting par13del (Reply 16):
So HA's primary focus is for clients who originate in the islands, mainland carriers primary focus would be clients who originate on the mainland, so both can co-exist with no problem.

Not exactly, maybe for the LAS flights, but the whole business is built around brining visitors TO Hawaii and carrying people (locals/visitors) within the islands. True, there are a a few locals on many outbound flights, but they aren't the primary focus and are outnumbered by visitors. The flight schedule is designed purposely to maximize the Hawaii vacation to the extent possible. So yeah... WN will be competing directly with HA.
 
User avatar
par13del
Posts: 10337
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:14 pm

RE: Why Doesn't WN Fly To Hawaii?

Fri Oct 02, 2015 4:56 pm

Quoting flaps30 (Reply 17):
Your example of AA flying a non-ETOPS A321 does not make sense because the aircraft you mentioned was NOT an ETOPS approved aircraft.

A part of a carrier being ETOPS certified is paper work in addition to physical maintenance, what does AA example show and why would a fine be considered if administrative functions mean nothing?

Quoting flaps30 (Reply 17):
Again, hasnt WN already confirmed they can maintain the a/c to ETOPS standards by actually flying them to different destinations now.?

No, because they have not been using the legal / technical formality of ETOPS certification which has its own checklist, etc etc etc
A numebr of persons can drive before they get a license, why do the driving test?
 
hiflyeras
Posts: 2254
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2011 6:48 pm

RE: Why Doesn't WN Fly To Hawaii?

Fri Oct 02, 2015 4:57 pm

Quoting BravoOne (Reply 26):
I don't think it's a given that SWA will be hugely successful in the islands and you can bet your bottom dollar that Alaska is not going to roll over and play dead. Ditto for Hawaiian, DAL or UAL.

Agreed....those airlines (UA, HA, DL, AS) have built relationships with customers and the people of Hawaii. They tailor their inflight service to the islands to make it special. I see WN coming in more like G4 did...expecting to succeed. It's not the same market as they might be accustomed to and people will not necessarily flock to an airline with such limited inflight service, poor mileage program and lack of premium seating.
 
BravoOne
Posts: 4094
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2013 2:27 pm

RE: Why Doesn't WN Fly To Hawaii?

Fri Oct 02, 2015 4:58 pm

SWA hired the guy that was responsible for the Alaska ETOPS operations. This happened around two+ years ago so I'm not sure what has happened in the mean time. Seems like they ran a couple of validation flights and then sat back for market issues to evolve? I'm pretty sure that Boeing has spent considerable working with SWA on this very issue albeit some time in the past.
 
airliner371
Posts: 2404
Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2012 9:53 pm

RE: Why Doesn't WN Fly To Hawaii?

Fri Oct 02, 2015 5:12 pm

Quoting infiniti329 (Reply 24):
A true codeshare could be beneficial to both parties. WN would gain access to Hawaii and HA would benefit off WN's feed into their larger stations. WN carried the second most passengers in the world in 2014. HA tapping into that would be huge. As far scheduling WN and HA would hash that out that wouldn't be a huge biggie. But before we get to ahead of ourselves WN pilots would have relax the codeshare language in the new contract.

Whether I agree with the pilots or not, I'll tell you this, a codeshare with HA will not happen.
 
INFINITI329
Posts: 2519
Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2012 12:53 am

RE: Why Doesn't WN Fly To Hawaii?

Fri Oct 02, 2015 7:49 pm

Quoting airliner371 (Reply 31):
a codeshare with HA will not happen.

What's your reasoning?
 
User avatar
TVNWZ
Posts: 2268
Joined: Fri Feb 17, 2006 9:28 am

RE: Why Doesn't WN Fly To Hawaii?

Fri Oct 02, 2015 8:14 pm

Quoting HiflyerAS (Reply 29):
....those airlines (UA, HA, DL, AS) have built relationships with customers and the people of Hawaii. They tailor their inflight service to the islands to make it special. I see WN coming in more like G4 did...expecting to succeed. It's not the same market as they might be accustomed to and people will not necessarily flock to an airline with such limited inflight service, poor mileage program and lack of premium seating.

WN customers are very familiar with their hard product and apparently like it very much. An airplane ride is an airplane ride. I think if their flights were set up correctly they would have a very successful go to Hawaii. Opening up the Islands to their huge FF base would trigger more traffic that is now lost to the other airlines. Wn is not G4.
 
BerenErchamion
Posts: 237
Joined: Thu May 28, 2015 12:44 am

RE: Why Doesn't WN Fly To Hawaii?

Fri Oct 02, 2015 8:24 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 25):
Arguably, WN has more collective experience operating the 737 than any other airline in the world.

Nothing "arguable" about it. It's indisputably true.
 
User avatar
DolphinAir747
Posts: 1901
Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2012 10:07 pm

RE: Why Doesn't WN Fly To Hawaii?

Fri Oct 02, 2015 8:36 pm

Quoting azjubilee (Reply 12):

Quoting 717atOGG (Reply 5):
Same with PHX and LAS-HNL. Also, since no airline serves it, LAS-OGG might be a good route.
Quoting DolphinAir747 (Reply 9):
Surprised no one serves LAS OGG with the large Hawaiian diaspora in Nevada.

HAL flew this route twice a week for several years, but discontinued in favor of funneling everyone to the 17/wk flights from HNL.

Wow I didn't realize it was that frequent!
 
BravoOne
Posts: 4094
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2013 2:27 pm

RE: Why Doesn't WN Fly To Hawaii?

Fri Oct 02, 2015 8:58 pm

Quoting infiniti329 (Reply 32):
What's your reasoning?

The SWA pilots dead set against any kind of code sharing. Smart 
 
UA444
Posts: 2997
Joined: Sun Mar 09, 2014 7:03 am

RE: Why Doesn't WN Fly To Hawaii?

Fri Oct 02, 2015 9:13 pm

Quoting Wingtips56 (Reply 13):

I'm talking about from LAS though, especially in the summer.
 
airliner371
Posts: 2404
Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2012 9:53 pm

RE: Why Doesn't WN Fly To Hawaii?

Fri Oct 02, 2015 9:22 pm

Quoting infiniti329 (Reply 32):
What's your reasoning?

Because the WN pilots are INSANE about codesharing. They treat codesharing like murder, it is just absolutely terrible for the company and the company mine as well just go out of business if they are going to codeshare.

I myself take the total polar opposite viewpoint but that is the WN pilot's view.
 
slcdeltarumd11
Posts: 4756
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2004 7:30 am

RE: Why Doesn't WN Fly To Hawaii?

Fri Oct 02, 2015 9:23 pm

Hawaii takes up alot of plane time especially for WN. Flights seem pretty low per mile in revenue.
 
azjubilee
Posts: 3721
Joined: Sat Apr 29, 2000 5:26 am

RE: Why Doesn't WN Fly To Hawaii?

Fri Oct 02, 2015 10:07 pm

Quoting DolphinAir747 (Reply 35):
Wow I didn't realize it was that frequent!

Yup! There are 2 daily flights, afternoon and red-eye and one that operates in the morning on Sunday, Wednesday and Friday. In the westbound direction there is the daily "midnight madness" that leaves Vegas at nearly 2am, arriving HNL at 5am, the 9am departure and then Su,W,F there is the late afternoon departure. All on 330s and are generally always quite full.
 
Wingtips56
Posts: 1291
Joined: Thu Dec 16, 2010 1:26 am

RE: Why Doesn't WN Fly To Hawaii?

Fri Oct 02, 2015 11:19 pm

Quoting UA444 (Reply 37):
I'm talking about from LAS though, especially in the summer.

I agree with you on that question. Maybe late at night? A 73G might be better able, but probably doesn't hold enough fare-paying passengers to cover costs. Is WN even looking at ETOPS for 73G?
---

As to the original question, my personal, uneducated thought is that WN flying to Hawai'i certainly doesn't fit with their original business strategy relative to fleet utilization. A round-trip to Hawai'i certainly takes a plane out of the loop for quite a while, when it could otherwise be doing several of their normal shorter hops. Yes, they've changed, and the new Mexico and C. America flying departs from the old business plan, but still, is sending 5, 10 or 15 flights across the Pacific a good fit for them? Can WN command fare pricing that is beneficial to their margins in view of how competitive the market is?
Worked for WestAir, Apollo Airways, Desert Pacific, Western, AirCal and American Airlines (Retired). Flight Memory: 181 airports, 92 airlines, 78 a/c types, 403 routes, 58 countries (by air), 6 continents. 1,119,414 passenger miles.

Home airport : CEC
 
User avatar
enilria
Posts: 10252
Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2008 7:15 pm

RE: Why Doesn't WN Fly To Hawaii?

Fri Oct 02, 2015 11:53 pm

Southwest still has work rules that make red-eyes not impossible, but not economic and the company has stated internally that they don't plan on doing red-eyes any time soon. I take that to mean under the current contract.
 
KELPkid
Posts: 5247
Joined: Wed Nov 02, 2005 5:33 am

RE: Why Doesn't WN Fly To Hawaii?

Sat Oct 03, 2015 12:00 am

1) Haven't established ETOPS with the FAA (yet). I'm sure they're working on it
2) If implemented, I'm sure all the rapid rewards members would be burning them on Hawaii trips, which could make the route unprofitable (several airlines have experienced this!)
3) With AS in the market, and HA about to implement narrowbodies to the mainland (A321NEO), where is there room for WN? You can't create demand from thin air...

I wouldn't be surprised if WN eventually starts their Hawaii flights, but it will probably be from someplace a little more inland from the coast (e.g. PHX or LAS...). Less competition.
Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
 
Viscount724
Posts: 19316
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:32 pm

RE: Why Doesn't WN Fly To Hawaii?

Sat Oct 03, 2015 12:43 am

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 39):
Hawaii takes up alot of plane time especially for WN. Flights seem pretty low per mile in revenue.

WN can probably make significantly more revenue on ten 1-hour flights within the mainland US than on two 5-hour flights to/from Hawaii using the same aircraft. An almost exclusively leisure market like Hawaii further depresses potential revenue compared to the mainland where the business travel component is much larger.
 
QANTAS747-438
Posts: 1739
Joined: Mon Jan 22, 2001 7:01 am

RE: Why Doesn't WN Fly To Hawaii?

Sat Oct 03, 2015 1:05 am

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 43):
) If implemented, I'm sure all the rapid rewards members would be burning them on Hawaii trips, which could make the route unprofitable

People always say this, and I'm not sure why. When accounting, doesn't the airline take that FF Reward, count it as an occupied seat, and assign it a revenue amount? The seat isn't written off as a free giveaway.
My posts/replies are strictly my opinion and not that of any company, organization, or Southwest Airlines.
 
airliner371
Posts: 2404
Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2012 9:53 pm

RE: Why Doesn't WN Fly To Hawaii?

Sat Oct 03, 2015 1:08 am

Quoting enilria (Reply 42):
Southwest still has work rules that make red-eyes not impossible, but not economic and the company has stated internally that they don't plan on doing red-eyes any time soon. I take that to mean under the current contract.

You and your "contacts" don't have a great track record on WN.
 
TUSDawg23
Posts: 272
Joined: Sun May 30, 2010 2:43 am

RE: Why Doesn't WN Fly To Hawaii?

Sat Oct 03, 2015 1:20 am

Quoting jetwet1 (Reply 21):

Why not go head to head out of LAX ? There is no reason IMHO for WN to go for the small cities, WN is the 900lb gorilla in Cali, they don't have to play it in the same way Allegaint did.

LAX-HNL is a saturated market that's why. You have 4 carriers offering multiple widebodies a day. Like you said, WN has strong loyalty in California so why not utilize other airports in the state where they don't have much competition? OAK, SMF, BUR, ONT, and SAN all have large enough markets to operate a few Hawaii flights a day and actually make money in the process. Could they compete on LAX-HNL? Sure. Will they make money on the route? That's hard to really say at this point.
 
KELPkid
Posts: 5247
Joined: Wed Nov 02, 2005 5:33 am

RE: Why Doesn't WN Fly To Hawaii?

Sat Oct 03, 2015 1:31 am

Quoting QANTAS747-438 (Reply 45):
People always say this, and I'm not sure why. When accounting, doesn't the airline take that FF Reward, count it as an occupied seat, and assign it a revenue amount? The seat isn't written off as a free giveaway.

Umm, because it happened to other airlines?   Also, WN has experience in this area, believe it or not. When the code share/partnership with ATA airlines was alive and well (and before ATA folded), they found lots of Rapid Rewards members using their points on ATA flights to HNL...
Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
 
luv2cattlecall
Posts: 826
Joined: Fri Sep 28, 2007 6:25 am

RE: Why Doesn't WN Fly To Hawaii?

Sat Oct 03, 2015 4:02 am

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 48):
When the code share/partnership with ATA airlines was alive and well (and before ATA folded), they found lots of Rapid Rewards members using their points on ATA flights to HNL...

The old points system was fairly easy to "take advantage of," with point runs on cheap shorthaul. I would think the new revenue based system makes it a non-issue, unless they expect most redemptions to occur when a family of 4 decides to take a last minute discretionary vacation from DAL-HOU on a half full flight.

[Edited 2015-10-02 21:02:45]
.

Who is online

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos