Delta Ask DOT To Revoke AA LAX-HND Authority

LAXintl · Thu Oct 01, 2015 11:32 pm

The endless saga of twist and turns continues....

Delta today filed with the DOT for it to revoke AA's authority between LAX and Tokyo's Haneda which was issued when Delta was stripped of its SEA-HND authority back in June.

Delta argues that AA has failed to meet the departments 60-day start-up condition as it has yet to notify the DOT, publish a schedule or begin selling the flights for any period beyond the 60-day period which started on October 1st when DL ended its SEA-HND service.

DL urges the department to immediately remove the slot from AA and make it available to other interested US carriers and it would be unfair to not hold AA to the same strict operating terms the department imposed on its SEA-HND service.

OST-2010-0018

Lets see what the formal AA response is, but from what I understand the carrier has had difficult time securing required slots times at HND as the application fell outside the formal IATA slot coordination timeframes with AA having missed the W16 allocation.

HPRamper · Thu Oct 01, 2015 11:46 pm

HA is probably quite happy with DL right now.

IrishAyes · Thu Oct 01, 2015 11:47 pm

there is no way the DOT is going to cater to Delta's petition.

I doubt AA is intentionally squatting on the route after all the drama.

If they are, then the DOT sure as hell better award it to HA.

LAXdude1023 · Thu Oct 01, 2015 11:52 pm

It should be given to the one carrier that has a proven track record with HND, that HA.

STT757 · Thu Oct 01, 2015 11:52 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter):
DL urges the department to immediately remove the slot from AA and make it available to other interested US carriers and it would be unfair to not hold AA to the same strict operating terms the department imposed on its SEA-HND service.

I think UA should apply for Guam-HND.

LAXintl · Fri Oct 02, 2015 12:09 am

If AA is truly hamstrung by inability to get slots at HND, I don't see the DOT being upset at the carrier.

There is ample precedence where limited entry traffic rights have been tied up over slots. Its happened in Brazil and most recently this year United has been continually unable to launch its approved 2nd SFO-PVG due slot issues on Chinese end.

usflyguy · Fri Oct 02, 2015 12:32 am

Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter):
DL urges the department to immediately remove the slot from AA and make it available to other interested US carriers and it would be unfair to not hold AA to the same strict operating terms the department imposed on its SEA-HND service.

Because DL wasn't give like 4 chances to make HND work?

enilria · Fri Oct 02, 2015 12:52 am

Quoting HPRamper (Reply 1):
HA is probably quite happy with DL right now.

Yup

Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter):
Delta today filed with the DOT for it to revoke AA's authority between LAX and Tokyo's Haneda which was issued when Delta was stripped of its SEA-HND authority back in June.

Why hasn't AA filed a schedule? They have a hub on both ends.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 5):

If AA is truly hamstrung by inability to get slots at HND, I don't see the DOT being upset at the carrier.

I thought the slots went with the authority.

slcdeltarumd11 · Fri Oct 02, 2015 1:10 am

DL is doing a good job providing drama on here

I guess the real question is how hard has AA chosen to not start or was something in their way preventing it. If they chose not to then they should have to pay some penalty at least.

LAXintl · Fri Oct 02, 2015 2:20 am

Quoting enilria (Reply 7):
I thought the slots went with the authority.

No you need to negotiate the actual timings with JCAB. All AA has is a route right but its actual slot time is subject to distribution among all operators per regular slot allocation process.

None of the awards are tied to specific time, as DOT does not know if AA wants to have a turn around 2200-0000 or land at 0600 and spend the day at HND before returning to US at 2200. AA needs to negotiate those on its own.

enilria · Fri Oct 02, 2015 2:33 am

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 9):
Quoting enilria (Reply 7):
I thought the slots went with the authority.

No you need to negotiate the actual timings with JCAB. All AA has is a route right but its actual slot time is subject to distribution among all operators per regular slot allocation process.

None of the awards are tied to specific time, as DOT does not know if AA wants to have a turn around 2200-0000 or land at 0600 and spend the day at HND before returning to US at 2200. AA needs to negotiate those on its own.

Well, then we don't know enough to determine whether there is merit to DL's claim. I guess I will reserve judgment.

UA444 · Fri Oct 02, 2015 3:24 am

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 3):

UA also has a proven record and was shut out during the initial round unjustifiably

DolphinAir747 · Fri Oct 02, 2015 3:31 am

How is UA's SFO HND doing?

NH's transition to the 77W on HND LAX with the newest-generation seats and an F cabin should provide steep competition for AA, who haven't gotten their act together in time.

IPFreely · Fri Oct 02, 2015 4:55 am

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 9):
No you need to negotiate the actual timings with JCAB. All AA has is a route right but its actual slot time is subject to distribution among all operators per regular slot allocation process.

ANA can get whatever timing they want from the FAA on one end and with JCAB on the other end. AA gets the runaround and cannot get workable times from JCAB. And the FAA does nothing. Our leaders are stupid. No wonder we never win anymore.

UA444 · Fri Oct 02, 2015 5:34 am

Quoting IPFreely (Reply 13):
. And the FAA does nothing. Our leaders are stupid. No wonder we never win anymore.

You basically summed it up, and won the Internet at the same time

DeltaB717 · Fri Oct 02, 2015 6:00 am

Airlines from most countries other than Japan are restricted to ops between 2200 and 0600, or similar, at HND. I'm not saying it's right or it's wrong, it's just the way it is. NRT has a curfew, so Japan provides night slots at HND instead for foreign carriers. Of course ANA has an easier time with the JCAB, it's a Japanese carrier and so has the relative freedom of choosing nearly any time of day. Other non-Japanese carriers make this situation work, so I guess I'm not really all that clear on what it is AA is looking for.

Speaking of AA... what stopped them making in-principle arrangements so that they didn't miss the timeframes?

FAA is a government agency, obviously, and so should be seen to wield its powers fairly and equitably. IIRC, DL was told to 'use it or lose it'; the same should go for AA or anyone else. In that case, good on DL for holding the FAA to account. If the FAA and AA can prove there are extenuating circumstances, then DL's position should revert to "all good, and thanks for the advice."

FWIW, I don't see it that DL is seeking to have its own rights reinstated as some seem to be suggesting (or maybe I've read that wrongly). I see it more as DL just saying "fair go", and that could benefit literally anyone.

LAX772LR · Fri Oct 02, 2015 6:42 am

Quoting IPFreely (Reply 13):
Our leaders are stupid.

Indeed, they're quite stupid to agree to this farce as "open skies"...

...quite hypocritical; since we declined open skies with the UK three times in a row, over inability of additional US carriers to not only acquire LHR slots, but acquire market-viable slot timings.

jfk777 · Fri Oct 02, 2015 11:54 am

Delta is being a winny child because they lost the slot. IF AA can't make LAX to HND work they will continue to fly to Narita. Haneda with its 2200-0700 restriction is an undesirable proposition from the continental 48, Hawaii works well with the crazy time window.

uberflieger · Fri Oct 02, 2015 12:07 pm

Delta's motion forces American to react and disclose what the hold up is. That's a good thing.

COSPN · Fri Oct 02, 2015 12:43 pm

Guam - HND was the original Airmike route but was forced to move to NRT ... While CI was allowed to stay in HND to operate HNL-HND-TPE ... So juts give back what was taken away in 1979

RyanairGuru · Fri Oct 02, 2015 12:44 pm

Quoting IPFreely (Reply 13):

FAA doesn't issue slots, and JFK is the only slot constrained NH and JL fly to anyway.

enilria · Fri Oct 02, 2015 12:52 pm

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 16):

Quoting IPFreely (Reply 13):
Our leaders are stupid.

Indeed, they're quite stupid to agree to this farce as "open skies"...

True. All these horribly timed slots are going to end up in Hawaii.

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 17):
Delta is being a winny child because they lost the slot.

Quoting uberflieger (Reply 18):
Delta's motion forces American to react and disclose what the hold up is. That's a good thing.

I think they have a right to hold AA to the same standard they were held to, although I supported it being reallocated to AA.

If AA doesn't have a doctor's note their pay should be docked.

cosyr · Fri Oct 02, 2015 1:05 pm

Are there really any more routes that can be profitably operated with these slot times? Every airline seems to be fighting for something it can't really use, I assume on the hope that they'll be able to move the route authority to a better time somewhere in the future. I'm glad that HA is making good use of their routes, but if HND is so important, it needs to be connected to the biggest and most important financial markets in the US...not a vacation spot.

uberflieger · Fri Oct 02, 2015 1:15 pm

Quoting enilria (Reply 21):
If AA doesn't have a doctor's note their pay should be docked

We may be hearing something as early as today, if AA is serious about this route, which I believe they are.

fodar · Fri Oct 02, 2015 1:48 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 17):
Haneda with its 2200-0700 restriction is an undesirable proposition from the continental 48

Quoting enilria (Reply 21):
All these horribly timed slots are going to end up in Hawaii.

Quoting cosyr (Reply 22):
Are there really any more routes that can be profitably operated with these slot times?

The time restriction works just fine for an airline with a base in HND. Look at NH's timings from/to LAX:

- Westbound: leave LAX around 1am, arrive HND around 5am (I have several colleagues who love this flight, allows them to complete their work day in the US and arrive early enough in Tokyo to get to whatever meeting they have scheduled, including attending kids' events on week-end in a couple of instances)

- Eastbound: leave HND just past midnight, arrive LAX around 6pm (and the plane only sits at LAX for 7 hours, not too bad).

The timing restrictions do not work as well for US-based airlines, as their plane has to spend at least 16 unproductive hours on the ground in HND.

What seems even more biased is the fact that AC is able to operate without these artificial time restrictions, and get by with very workable timings and very little unproductive time on the ground (dep YYZ 13:40 arr HND 15:35, then dep HND 17:40 arr YYZ 16:45).

HPRamper · Fri Oct 02, 2015 1:53 pm

Quoting cosyr (Reply 22):
I'm glad that HA is making good use of their routes, but if HND is so important, it needs to be connected to the biggest and most important financial markets in the US...not a vacation spot.

HA's argument is that tourism IS the financial economy of Hawaii. The DOT agreed with you, however. Will be interesting to see now if AA can produce something to retain the rights, or if they effectively did this all just to spite DL.

a380787 · Fri Oct 02, 2015 2:00 pm

Quoting fodar (Reply 24):

What seems even more biased is the fact that AC is able to operate without these artificial time restrictions, and get by with very workable timings and very little unproductive time on the ground (dep YYZ 13:40 arr HND 15:35, then dep HND 17:40 arr YYZ 16:45).

It's not a "bias" in that sense of the word. Canada and Japan negotiated day time HND slots, but Japan/US failed to reach the proper agreement (i have my own theories as to why that's the case but won't stir the pot for now)

The recent upgauge of ANA to 77W is very likely a pre-emptive action to discourage AA from launching their own and making an already thin route into a 3-way fare war.

commavia · Fri Oct 02, 2015 2:23 pm

Quoting fodar (Reply 24):
The time restriction works just fine for an airline with a base in HND.

Yes - critical point. All else equal, and with the possible exception of Hawaii (for which O&D is so huge and leisure-oriented that timings are relatively less important), the HND slot limitations for U.S. flights heavily favor Japanese carriers because of the interaction between time zones, stage lengths, aircraft utilization and Japan domestic connectivity.

[Edited 2015-10-02 07:32:00]

jbs2886 · Fri Oct 02, 2015 2:52 pm

Delta used the buzzwords, and from a more legal perspective, I think they are correct:

"American’s backup award, as detailed above, was expressly conditioned on its ability to meet the Department’s accelerated 60-day startup condition. Given the strict conditions imposed on Delta, it would be unfair, arbitrary and capricious to allow American to violate the terms of its backup award and retain slots for Los Angeles-Haneda service that it has no intention of operating within the next 60 days. The slots should be immediately returned to the unallocated pool forthwith."

http://www.regulations.gov/#!documentDetail;D=DOT-OST-2010-0018-0491

DeltaB717 · Fri Oct 02, 2015 3:03 pm

I wouldn't say those are buzz words, just a company calling it how it is. They are absolutely right that, if they were told to use it or lose it and were held to that, then AA should equally be held to the conditions on its authority. Ball is now in AA's court to show cause why the condition should be relaxed.

That said, I completely agree it was less than brilliant of many governments to sign up to 'open skies' with such restrictions. Japan has done a great job of locking up Tokyo at night to foreign carriers, at least for USA & Australia...

jbs2886 · Fri Oct 02, 2015 3:30 pm

Quoting DeltaB717 (Reply 29):
I wouldn't say those are buzz words, just a company calling it how it is.

As an attorney dealing with administrative agency review, the legal buzzwords are in there.

AMALH747430 · Fri Oct 02, 2015 4:05 pm

Good for Delta! They were told "use it or loose it." If American can't use it, they need to loose it. Delta should have been allowed to operate the route on a seasonal/less than weekly basis from SEA if that is what the market dictated. American has a joint venture with Japan Air Lines they can piggy back off of. Delta doesn't have the same luxury. I am glad to see Delta stand up and fight.

IPFreely · Fri Oct 02, 2015 4:14 pm

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 20):
FAA doesn't issue slots

JCAB issues slots designed to keep American carriers out of Japan. FAA welcomes Japanese carriers to America anytime they want. JCAB and ANA are laughing at our leaders.

32andBelow · Fri Oct 02, 2015 4:37 pm

Quoting IPFreely (Reply 32):
JCAB issues slots designed to keep American carriers out of Japan. FAA welcomes Japanese carriers to America anytime they want. JCAB and ANA are laughing at our leaders.

Almost 0 airports in the US are slot controlled.

MAH4546 · Fri Oct 02, 2015 5:25 pm

Quoting DeltaB717 (Reply 29):
They are absolutely right that, if they were told to use it or lose it and were held to that, then AA should equally be held to the conditions on its authority.

No. Delta had strict conditions because of it's previous abuse of the slot. Those punishments don't apply to AA, which wants to start Haneda service but has been unable to secure slots.

airliner371 · Fri Oct 02, 2015 5:26 pm

Delta likes to complain a lot... First DAL, now HND. Geez

Sooner787 · Fri Oct 02, 2015 5:36 pm

Quoting airliner371 (Reply 35):
Delta likes to complain a lot... First DAL, now HND. Geez

DL's legal department seems to rather busy these days

mattnrsa · Fri Oct 02, 2015 6:29 pm

Isn't the slot that DL used from SEA available? Or is AA planning on significantly different timings?

rta · Fri Oct 02, 2015 6:47 pm

Quoting AMALH747430 (Reply 31):
Delta should have been allowed to operate the route on a seasonal/less than weekly basis from SEA if that is what the market dictated. American has a joint venture with Japan Air Lines they can piggy back off of. Delta doesn't have the same luxury. I am glad to see Delta stand up and fight.

Are you joking? The slots should go to whomever will maximize their use and thus benefit consumers. Delta was not maximizing it by running it less than daily, that too, on a 763. Also, there's never going to be a 1:1 comparison but FYI, Delta already has an HND slot for their LAX flight. And Delta also has unrestricted access at NRT, which allows them to fly routes like Tokyo-Bangkok/Hong Kong//Manila/Osaka/Saipan/Singapore/Taipei/Shanghai. There is no way that Delta is the victim in this. Yes, AA does have JL but they only fly to HNL and SFO from HND, and AA can't fly anywhere except the USA to/from NRT.

[Edited 2015-10-02 11:47:49]

a380787 · Fri Oct 02, 2015 6:50 pm

Quoting AMALH747430 (Reply 31):

Good for Delta! They were told "use it or loose it." If American can't use it, they need to loose it. Delta should have been allowed to operate the route on a seasonal/less than weekly basis from SEA if that is what the market dictated. American has a joint venture with Japan Air Lines they can piggy back off of. Delta doesn't have the same luxury. I am glad to see Delta stand up and fight.

That's not even what the market indicated. It's just the way to skirt the dormancy rule and minimize their losses, which bears little resemblance to what year-round market demand is.

mark2fly1034 · Fri Oct 02, 2015 7:05 pm

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 34):
No. Delta had strict conditions because of it's previous abuse of the slot. Those punishments don't apply to AA, which wants to start Haneda service but has been unable to secure slots.

Delta never abused it they flowed the rules it stated it had to be flown once every 30 days or something an they did that during the winter when travel was low.

n7371f · Fri Oct 02, 2015 7:22 pm

AA knows it's a money loser.

FSDan · Fri Oct 02, 2015 7:23 pm

Quoting rta (Reply 39):
AA can't fly anywhere except the USA to/from NRT.

And they don't need to fly anywhere other than the USA from NRT because they are partners with JAL...
Of AA/JL, UA/NH, and DL at NRT, I'm pretty sure DL is the smallest.

a380787 · Fri Oct 02, 2015 7:29 pm

Quoting FSDan (Reply 43):
Of AA/JL, UA/NH, and DL at NRT, I'm pretty sure DL is the smallest.

And I think UA/NH is the largest, and they offer side-by-side flying at many hubs - SFO LAX ORD IAD (NYC is the marginal case whether you can consider that side-by-side or not)

rta · Fri Oct 02, 2015 7:36 pm

Quoting FSDan (Reply 43):
And they don't need to fly anywhere other than the USA from NRT because they are partners with JAL...
Of AA/JL, UA/NH, and DL at NRT, I'm pretty sure DL is the smallest.

Thats besides the point. Why does UA fly intra Asia routes if NH can just pick them up? Regardless, it doesn't make it permissible for Delta to sit on slots and use them at the bare minimum so no one else can.

a380787 · Fri Oct 02, 2015 7:41 pm

Quoting rta (Reply 45):

Thats besides the point. Why does UA fly intra Asia routes if NH can just pick them up? Regardless, it doesn't make it permissible for Delta to sit on slots and use them at the bare minimum so no one else can.

The only true duplicate left with ANA is NRT-SIN. HKG/TPE/PVG/PEK are all nonstops now, sometimes from multiple hubs. BKK was handed over to ANA about 2 years (?) back.

ANA has moved all TYO-SEL flights over to HND-GMP, so UA is forced to continue flying NRT-ICN just to maintain connectivity to Seoul.

GUM / Micronesia is a different animal since UA actually hubs at GUM (a legacy from PMCO), so they have a legit reason to continue flying GUM-Japan themselves.

LAXtoATL · Fri Oct 02, 2015 8:43 pm

Quoting rta (Reply 45):
Regardless, it doesn't make it permissible for Delta to sit on slots and use them at the bare minimum so no one else can.

I think the point that Delta is making is that AA complained that DL was setting on the route authority and fully using it during the slow demand winter period and now AA is apparently sitting on the award and not starting operations during the slow demand winter period. I have no idea what the availability of slots are at HND and if AA is willfully slowing playing the process or if they legitimately cannot get a slot (considering JL is their partner I assume if they really wanted a slot they could get it) but if a slot is available (whether they like the timing or not) based on their submissions to DOT that challenged DL's route authority they should be held strictly to the guidelines.

Remember DL was operating the route under in accordance with the DOT guidelines, it was AA that challenged DL's lack of use. So that did not enter this with clean hands. They knew the situation and claimed they could operate the route daily and start service within 60 days - using their own words if they can't they should give it back (I'm sure HA would be gladly to start service next week).

* I have not been following HND developments very closely but I know there was talk of the potential of daytime slots being made available to US carriers (and Japanese carriers as well). It wouldn't surprise me if AA's plan was to wait for new slot timings or at least delay until Spring when demand was better. I will be interested to see what AA's response to this will be.

LAXintl · Fri Oct 02, 2015 9:05 pm

AA spokesman say carrier is committed to launching a daily LAX-HND service, but are still working on obtaining the landing slot in Japan and cannot begin marketing the service until such time.
They will inform the DOT accordingly.

http://aviationblog.dallasnews.com/2...es-new-la-tokyo-haneda-route.html/

=

Polot · Fri Oct 02, 2015 9:13 pm

Quoting Mark2fly1034 (Reply 41):
Delta never abused it they flowed the rules it stated it had to be flown once every 30 days or something an they did that during the winter when travel was low.

Its less that Delta was abusing the slot and more that the DOT was fed up with DL's antics with the slot. Remember first it was for DTW. Then DL wanted to move it to SEA and after a re-competition the DOT let them. Then DL started running the bare minimum legally allowed while other airlines (HA and AA) wanted the slot. The only reason DL got such harsh restrictions is because the DOT wanted to strip the slot from DL but legally had no argument for doing so, since DL was technically following the outlined requirements.

LAXintl · Fri Oct 02, 2015 9:23 pm

Just as background why AA is having trouble obtaining slots, below is the IATA timeline for W15 allocations.

For reference AA accepted the DOT authority on June 19, 2015, two days after Delta returned the slot.

Apr 27 - Historical slot list issued
May 14 - Historic slots accepted
May 21 - New initial slot submission deadline
Jun 23 - Slot conference (where new slots are allocated)
Aug 15 - Unused slot return deadline
Oct 25 - Start of W15

By June 19th, AA had already missed the W16 winter slot submission deadline by a month with the scheduled allocation conference only days away.

[Edited 2015-10-02 15:13:00]

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