stlAV8R
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Can B6 Be The AS Of The East For AA?

Sun Oct 04, 2015 7:28 pm

NYC is a city like no other when it comes to transportation. As airlines vie for a greater market share of the highly lucrative market, what is the likelihood we see a partnership (again) with AA and B6? When I say partnership I mean something along the lines of AA/DL and AS in SEA with a codeshare or possibly more (if legal). B6 has a strong foothold at JFK with Caribbean markets and larger US cities and AA could use that traffic to expand its transatlantic network. I know PHL is right up the road but NYC is a market within itself and it's no secret AA could use some help. The only other option, which is highly unlikely, is an acquisition of B6 by AA to gain access to more JFK slots and traffic. A side benefit to that would be a greater share of BOS as well as LGB to a lesser extent. Obviously FLL and SJU are not necessary nor desired I would imagine.
 
flyby519
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RE: Can B6 Be The AS Of The East For AA?

Sun Oct 04, 2015 7:59 pm

Pre-AA/US merger I believe AA/B6 were getting very cozy, if not prepping for an AA/B6 merger. When Parker came along with US and wedged himself between the two it shut B6 out of all partnerships. I don't think the new AA will have anything to do with B6.

An interesting codeshare partnership for B6 would be UA. It would fill in some holes for UA and add serious NYC coverage.

[Edited 2015-10-04 13:01:01]
 
stlAV8R
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RE: Can B6 Be The AS Of The East For AA?

Sun Oct 04, 2015 8:30 pm

Quoting flyby519 (Reply 1):
I don't think the new AA will have anything to do with B6.

That's a shame because AA and B6 have a complementary network in JFK even if an agreement is just JFK. They would help each other greatly. Arguably neither need help with their existing route structure but reducing redundancies would help with expansion without added infrastructure (aircraft). I would guess that there is a good revenue potential but if that was the case I'm sure something would already be in the works. Unless there would be issues with the DOJ.
 
HPRamper
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RE: Can B6 Be The AS Of The East For AA?

Sun Oct 04, 2015 8:45 pm

Quoting flyby519 (Reply 1):
An interesting codeshare partnership for B6 would be UA. It would fill in some holes for UA and add serious NYC coverage.

UA already has the most effective hub in the NYC area. I don't think they need more coverage in NYC. They need coverage in the Southeast where they are extremely weak. Could B6 help with that? Maybe but really only in Florida.
 
a380787
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RE: Can B6 Be The AS Of The East For AA?

Sun Oct 04, 2015 9:05 pm

AA has more than they can chew on the eastern time zone already - MIA CLT DCA PHL LGA JFK and a big focus city in BOS. The value B6 can offer is nearly zero at this point.
 
jfk777
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RE: Can B6 Be The AS Of The East For AA?

Sun Oct 04, 2015 10:27 pm

The only reason for AA or DL to merge with JetBlue would be its assets. The JFK and Boston gates and terminals. Maybe FLL. Those A320's are a great way to expand. There will always be some one ready to get New Yorkers to their condos in Boca it does not have to be JB.
 
UA444
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RE: Can B6 Be The AS Of The East For AA?

Sun Oct 04, 2015 11:06 pm

UA should partner with B6 for JFK.
 
stlAV8R
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RE: Can B6 Be The AS Of The East For AA?

Sun Oct 04, 2015 11:19 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 5):
The only reason for AA or DL to merge with JetBlue would be its assets. The JFK and Boston gates and terminals. Maybe FLL. Those A320's are a great way to expand. There will always be some one ready to get New Yorkers to their condos in Boca it does not have to be JB.

This was my first though initially but then at a time when airline profits are soaring I don't see the DOJ being sympathetic to airlines wanting more consolidation. I think the biggest asset would be JFK and the planes. Having the A320s and A321s will help but (maybe) more importantly the E190s would have an accidental upside as to allow AA to grow the regional plane allotment. I'm not 100% sure but I believe the more small planes they have for mainline the more AE can grow.

I just don't know what they would do with FLL with MIA being so close. Do you keep it and dominate the area (with PBI)? Do you eliminate it and focus on MIA allowing someone like UA or VX to come in and replace what B6 left? FLL just seems dangerous to deal with.

BOS OTOH I believe would be a gold mine. Being able to have a true foothold in that market would solidify AA as the airline of the NE. You have dominance in BOS, NYC, PHL, and WAS. What more can you ask for? (Oh and they would gain more slots at LGA which isn't a bad thing)
 
flyby519
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RE: Can B6 Be The AS Of The East For AA?

Sun Oct 04, 2015 11:29 pm

None of the big 4 will be merging with B6. No way.

At best you might see a merge between B6 and one of the smaller carriers, but even that is a long shot.

For B6 to be an AS-type carrier they need to have close (but not too close!) partnerships with some of the Big 4.
 
ty97
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RE: Can B6 Be The AS Of The East For AA?

Sun Oct 04, 2015 11:34 pm

Quoting stlAV8R (Reply 2):
That's a shame because AA and B6 have a complementary network in JFK even if an agreement is just JFK. They would help each other greatly. Arguably neither need help with their existing route structure but reducing redundancies would help with expansion without added infrastructure (aircraft). I would guess that there is a good revenue potential but if that was the case I'm sure something would already be in the works. Unless there would be issues with the DOJ.

When the partnership existed, I believe it was limited to earning miles (non-elite qualifying) on select routes out of JFK and BOS where AA and B6 did not compete directly. Even if that relationship was restarted (which seems doubtful) it would not give the two competitors the right to collude on schedules/destinations I'm pretty sure.

Quoting UA444 (Reply 6):
UA should partner with B6 for JFK.

UA is pulling out of JFK completely in a few weeks. A parter there doesn't help UA because there is no UA presence to feed from/to. (Some Star Alliance members at JFK may very well want to look at partnering with B6 at JFK for feed now that UA's minimal presence will be completely gone)
 
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RE: Can B6 Be The AS Of The East For AA?

Mon Oct 05, 2015 2:35 am

Quoting flyby519 (Reply 1):
An interesting codeshare partnership for B6 would be UA. It would fill in some holes for UA and add serious NYC coverage.

[Edited 2015-10-04 13:01:01]

What do you have against EWR? UA's network there is much more "serious" than that of any individual carrier hubbed at JFK.
 
ORDTLV2414
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RE: Can B6 Be The AS Of The East For AA?

Mon Oct 05, 2015 2:52 am

AA and B6 did interline for a little while on non competition routes for a while before the merger. The big benefit to AA would be some cooperation on Latin American routes, which AA has been top dog for a longtime. I imagine AA is very threatened by B6 in Latin America. Not sure why B6 would want to partcipate.
 
nyc2theworld
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RE: Can B6 Be The AS Of The East For AA?

Mon Oct 05, 2015 3:16 am

Quoting ty97 (Reply 9):
UA is pulling out of JFK completely in a few weeks. A parter there doesn't help UA because there is no UA presence to feed from/to. (Some Star Alliance members at JFK may very well want to look at partnering with B6 at JFK for feed now that UA's minimal presence will be completely gone)

Besides LH and B6 partnering up there's very little need for *A carriers to connect passengers at JFK. The only airline *A airline that only serves JFK is MS. All the others serve UA hubs that are better suited for connections.
Always wonderers if this "last and final boarding call" is in fact THE last and final boarding call.
 
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DolphinAir747
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RE: Can B6 Be The AS Of The East For AA?

Mon Oct 05, 2015 3:16 am

Quoting ORDTLV2414 (Reply 11):
I imagine AA is very threatened by B6 in Latin America. Not sure why B6 would want to partcipate.

That's a bit exaggerated, much of AA's flying is to deep South America where B6's 320 fleet cannot reach so calling B6 a threat is a bit far off.
 
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RE: Can B6 Be The AS Of The East For AA?

Mon Oct 05, 2015 3:29 am

Quoting DolphinAir747 (Reply 13):
That's a bit exaggerated, much of AA's flying is to deep South America where B6's 320 fleet cannot reach so calling B6 a threat is a bit far off.

AA has practically been strong from NYC to Puerto Rico and Dominican. B6 infringes on this.
 
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RE: Can B6 Be The AS Of The East For AA?

Mon Oct 05, 2015 3:54 am

Quoting UA444 (Reply 6):
UA should partner with B6 for JFK.

I'd argue B6's value to UA would be greater from their DCA presence as well as the aforementioned Florida (though again it does little to address the Southeast writ large outside of FL). The point about DCA would be if UA thought that would help keep around some people who would appreciate more options to NY, plus BOS, FL, and the assorted other places B6 flies ex-DCA. Not saying it would actually be the case that people would buy it, but it would be an interesting approach if focus groups reflected that kind of desire.
 
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RE: Can B6 Be The AS Of The East For AA?

Mon Oct 05, 2015 3:55 am

Quoting flyby519 (Reply 1):
An interesting codeshare partnership for B6 would be UA. It would fill in some holes for UA and add serious NYC coverage.

What holes would it fill, and what NYC coverage is UA lacking?
 
lhcvg
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RE: Can B6 Be The AS Of The East For AA?

Mon Oct 05, 2015 4:23 am

Quoting catiii (Reply 16):
What holes would it fill, and what NYC coverage is UA lacking?

In absolute terms, I bet there would be sizable overlap between the two, BUT what would be interesting is the combination of Mint JFK-LAX/SFO plus UA's PS offering (such as it is and will evolve over time) EWR-LAX/SFO. That could be a true transcon powerhouse insofar as the codeshare would capture JFK-loyal transcon J pax who plan to defect after UA ditches JFK purely for that reason alone.

You'd be targeting the same general demo that AS's codeshare with AA and DL captures among otherwise loyal AA or DL flyers with their DCA-LAX service.
 
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RE: Can B6 Be The AS Of The East For AA?

Mon Oct 05, 2015 8:08 am

Quoting nyc2theworld (Reply 12):
The only airline *A airline that only serves JFK is MS.

That is incorrect. Already I could think of CA, OZ, NH and SQ
 
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RE: Can B6 Be The AS Of The East For AA?

Mon Oct 05, 2015 9:30 am

Quoting ORDTLV2414 (Reply 14):

Dude read the news, with B6 and DL being so strong down to the DR, AA pulled all ops down there, AA only has seasonal service to punta cana and thats the only route to DR out of jfk for AA and SJU is jetblue city, specially after american eagle closed their base down there
 
nyc2theworld
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RE: Can B6 Be The AS Of The East For AA?

Mon Oct 05, 2015 12:18 pm

Quoting jacobchoi (Reply 18):
That is incorrect. Already I could think of CA, OZ, NH and SQ

Every last one of these airlines serves SFO and/or LAX which are much better connecting hubs for them than anything in NYC.

NH also serves ORD and CA also serves IAH.
Always wonderers if this "last and final boarding call" is in fact THE last and final boarding call.
 
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RE: Can B6 Be The AS Of The East For AA?

Mon Oct 05, 2015 12:23 pm

Quoting stlAV8R (Reply 7):
I just don't know what they would do with FLL with MIA being so close. Do you keep it and dominate the area (with PBI)? Do you eliminate it and focus on MIA allowing someone like UA or VX to come in and replace what B6 left? FLL just seems dangerous to deal with.

The southern anchor of JetBlue is FLL, the way BOS & JFK are the north anchors. TO close FLL is just to gut the airline. Maybe JB should by Spirit and consolidate their FLL position since Southwest is building up to launch Latin America from there.
 
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RE: Can B6 Be The AS Of The East For AA?

Mon Oct 05, 2015 1:17 pm

Quoting DolphinAir747 (Reply 10):
What do you have against EWR? UA's network there is much more "serious" than that of any individual carrier hubbed at JFK.

I have nothing against UA EWR operation, but not everyone flies from EWR:

http://www.panynj.gov/airports/pdf-traffic/DEC2014_REG.pdf

As said in the other posts, a B6/UA codeshare could help those estranged JFK PS travelers and other UA-ers who might find JFK convienient.

Additionally, the DCA presence could help replace the US codeshare they used to have. FLL/MCO would be a nice addition to the network as well, particularly as B6 grows to S.America.
 
DiscoverCSG
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RE: Can B6 Be The AS Of The East For AA?

Mon Oct 05, 2015 1:27 pm

Quoting jacobchoi (Reply 18):

Quoting nyc2theworld (Reply 12):
The only airline *A airline that only serves JFK is MS.

That is incorrect. Already I could think of CA, OZ, NH and SQ

I think nyc2theworld meant that most *A carriers serve other UA hubs, and that MS is the only *A carrier that doesn't.

And let's face it: between the delays AND terminal changes, plus the fact that NYC has so much O+D, wouldn't carriers want to build connecting operations anyplace EXCEPT JFK/EWR?
 
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RE: Can B6 Be The AS Of The East For AA?

Mon Oct 05, 2015 2:05 pm

Quoting stlAV8R (Reply 7):
I just don't know what they would do with FLL with MIA being so close. Do you keep it and dominate the area (with PBI)? Do you eliminate it and focus on MIA allowing someone like UA or VX to come in and replace what B6 left? FLL just seems dangerous to deal with.
Quoting jfk777 (Reply 21):
The southern anchor of JetBlue is FLL, the way BOS & JFK are the north anchors. TO close FLL is just to gut the airline. Maybe JB should by Spirit and consolidate their FLL position since Southwest is building up to launch Latin America from there.

  
B6 is the largest carrier at FLL. There's no way they should leave that and try competing head on with AA in Miami. Additionally, contrary to popular belief on a.net, not everyone wants to fly from Miami. They might be only 30 miles apart on paper but for a large number of people FLL is much more convenient.
 
stlAV8R
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RE: Can B6 Be The AS Of The East For AA?

Mon Oct 05, 2015 2:14 pm

Honestly I think UA is out of the picture as far as B6 helping them in the NYC area. It just doesn't make sense. B6 can just as easily codeshare with *A carriers and leave UA out of the loop. There's just not much of an advantage.

Quoting nyc2theworld (Reply 12):
Besides LH and B6 partnering up there's very little need for *A carriers to connect passengers at JFK. The only airline *A airline that only serves JFK is MS. All the others serve UA hubs that are better suited for connections.

I wouldn't fully agree with this. Obviously O&D traffic or traffic with the fewest stops (in the case of transatlantic ops in the case of JFK) bring in the highest margins. The fewer carriers you compete with to provide the most direct service, the better. However, there is a need to fill the plane and having more options is better so B6 + foreign carriers is not a bad deal for either party.

Quoting ORDTLV2414 (Reply 14):
Quoting DolphinAir747 (Reply 13):
That's a bit exaggerated, much of AA's flying is to deep South America where B6's 320 fleet cannot reach so calling B6 a threat is a bit far off.

AA has practically been strong from NYC to Puerto Rico and Dominican. B6 infringes on this.

B6 currently can't fully infringe on AA deep South America yes, but that's not the entire market. There is a mutual benefit from each other here as from NYC, both are stronger in particular markets that are important to NYC travelers.

Quoting sparrow787 (Reply 19):
Quoting ORDTLV2414 (Reply 14):

Dude read the news, with B6 and DL being so strong down to the DR, AA pulled all ops down there, AA only has seasonal service to punta cana and thats the only route to DR out of jfk for AA and SJU is jetblue city, specially after american eagle closed their base down there

This is exactly why AA could use B6. It needs to regrow in a market it once dominated.

Quoting DiscoverCSG (Reply 23):
And let's face it: between the delays AND terminal changes, plus the fact that NYC has so much O+D, wouldn't carriers want to build connecting operations anyplace EXCEPT JFK/EWR?

I think you're looking at the NYC market wrong. NYC does serve as a de facto hub for several carriers, however, O&D is what is important here. Example, DL flies once a day from a lot of markets to JFK to support its JFK hub on mostly RJ equipment. Once in the morning to JFK and once at night from JFK. Not much of a connecting hub BUT does provide connections so basically a different purpose.
 
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N62NA
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RE: Can B6 Be The AS Of The East For AA?

Mon Oct 05, 2015 2:26 pm

Quoting catiii (Reply 16):
what NYC coverage is UA lacking?

Aside from ORD / DEN / IAH / CLE (all hub cities BTW) out of LGA, UA will soon offer next to nothing for those travellers east of the Hudson river.
 
a380787
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RE: Can B6 Be The AS Of The East For AA?

Mon Oct 05, 2015 2:40 pm

Quoting N62NA (Reply 26):

Aside from ORD / DEN / IAH / CLE (all hub cities BTW) out of LGA, UA will soon offer next to nothing for those travellers east of the Hudson river.

Please rephrase your fantasy fabrication. It's east of the East River (QNS, BKN, LI), not east of the Hudson, which includes Manhattan. Passengers to/from Manhattan has plenty of flights to pick from at EWR.

We're mostly discussing B6 and JFK here, so I have no idea why LGA is of any relevance. B6 offers only Florida service out of LGA.

Using trailing 12 months data PANYNJ as of July 2015, B6 is all the way down to #4 out of NYC if you treat AA and US as one entity. Other than select beach destinations in the Caribbean, B6 offers virtually nothing for UA or AA for that matter.

www.panynj.gov/airports/pdf-traffic/JUL2015_REG.pdf

And guess which airline carries the most NY region passengers in that report? Hint, it's not DL B6 or AA.
 
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N62NA
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RE: Can B6 Be The AS Of The East For AA?

Mon Oct 05, 2015 2:42 pm

Quoting a380787 (Reply 27):
Please rephrase your fantasy fabrication.

Please stop stalking and attacking me every time I post anything about EWR.

Thanks.
 
a380787
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RE: Can B6 Be The AS Of The East For AA?

Mon Oct 05, 2015 2:48 pm

Quoting N62NA (Reply 28):
Please stop stalking and attacking me every time I post anything about EWR.

No one is stalking you, but since your posts contain a lot of misinformation, you will be called out for that.

You are entitled to your opinion, but not entitled to mis-representing facts to suit the axe you're trying to grind.

You say UA offers nearly nothing east of Hudson, implying the Manhattan based passenger only has the 4 nonstop destinations out of LGA, which is blatantly untrue.

[Edited 2015-10-05 07:50:08]
 
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N62NA
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RE: Can B6 Be The AS Of The East For AA?

Mon Oct 05, 2015 4:06 pm

Quoting a380787 (Reply 29):
No one is stalking you, but since your posts contain a lot of misinformation, you will be called out for that.

I'll say it again: Every time I post something about EWR, you're right there calling me names and making up stuff about me. That's stalking.

Quoting a380787 (Reply 29):
You are entitled to your opinion, but not entitled to mis-representing facts to suit the axe you're trying to grind.

I haven't misrepresented any facts.

I have no axe to grind.

Quoting a380787 (Reply 29):
You say UA offers nearly nothing east of Hudson, implying the Manhattan based passenger only has the 4 nonstop destinations out of LGA, which is blatantly untrue.

Yeah, I left out UA's nonstops from LGA to:

ATL
DFW
DTW
BOS
DCA
MCO
MIA
FLL
CLT
RDU
BUF
ALB
MSP
CMH
CVG
STL
PIT
BNA
MEM

You caught me. I was trying to "imply" that there will only be UA nonstops from LGA/JFK to their 4 hub cities when clearly that isn't the case, as you've stated.. AND, I might add, you also caught me in that I didn't mention their 2 flights a day to LGA-IAD.

You're a regular Lieutenant Colombo, you are. Nobody has a chance going up against you.  
 
ec99
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RE: Can B6 Be The AS Of The East For AA?

Mon Oct 05, 2015 4:41 pm

Quoting N62NA (Reply 30):
You're a regular Lieutenant Colombo, you are. Nobody has a chance going up against you.

What is happening here? You two seem to have some real JFK/LGA verus EWR thing going on.

Of course, both of your points have some validity. For the East River/Hudson river question, for people on the West side, EWR is often going to be better than LGA/JFK. Trying to get across town is often a nightmare and I would definitely prefer to go to EWR then JFK if I was leaving from Hell’s Kitchen or Hudson Yards. The flip side of course is that if you are in the East Village, alphabet city or Upper East Side, JFK/LGA is much better since you have the same cross town traffic to contend with.

As you both agree I believe, EWR has real problems for people east of the East River. It has not been discussed but EWR also is horrible for people in Fairfield County. It is only a million people but it’s a million people in a very affluent county. When I was working there, the drive to Hartford was almost always quicker than the drive to Newark despite being 3X the distance.

Ultimately, I come down on the JFK side due to numbers. JFK is just more convenient for more people (CT, Westchester, all of NYC with the exception of parts of Manhattan and Staten Island, long Island). Newark only has Staten Island, a part of Manhattan and the north half of NJ.
 
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Polot
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RE: Can B6 Be The AS Of The East For AA?

Mon Oct 05, 2015 4:56 pm

Quoting EC99 (Reply 32):
Ultimately, I come down on the JFK side due to numbers. JFK is just more convenient for more people (CT, Westchester, all of NYC with the exception of parts of Manhattan and Staten Island, long Island). Newark only has Staten Island, a part of Manhattan and the north half of NJ.

You are really underselling northern NJ there. North NJ has about the same number of people as the entire state of CT and also contains several affluent counties as well such as Morris, Somerset, and Hunterdon counties (although with that last one PHL starts to also be a very viable option).

That is why nobody really talks about JFK being far more convenient to CT...it is basically equalized by the fact that EWR is far more convenient to North Jersey.
 
stlAV8R
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RE: Can B6 Be The AS Of The East For AA?

Mon Oct 05, 2015 5:05 pm

UA is in a unique position because they pretty much have an airport all to themselves that allows them to not have a split operation between LGA and JFK, however, that comes with a side effect of convenience to some NYC, NJ, and CT passengers. These are all great points about EWR vs JFK but this is about whether or not B6 can help a trailing AA in NYC. I don't see how AA will be able to maintain a viable presence in NYC without some type of change. Sure, they have loyal passengers and there of course is oneworld and how could I forget LON traffic but without some type of help, NYC will merely become a focus city. The new AA I feel is very smart about not running money loosing operations. I'm not suggesting that it will be DL in DFW sans 2005 but something to a lesser degree if things don't change.
 
ec99
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RE: Can B6 Be The AS Of The East For AA?

Mon Oct 05, 2015 5:21 pm

Quoting Polot (Reply 33):
That is why nobody really talks about JFK being far more convenient to CT...it is basically equalized by the fact that EWR is far more convenient to North Jersey.

You have a valid point that the CT traffic is fairly small piece of the puzzle. Further, the NYC Metro has a huge population and can easily support two large intentional airports plus LGA. There is no debating that EWR is the best option for many, IMO many = 7-8 million people.

Ultimately, I still think JFK is the better option for more people. Brooklyn, Queens and the Bronx have about 6.4 million people, Long Island has about 2.8 million, Fairfield county has just over 900K. Admittedly, it is a close call and Newark is not a clear loser in terms of the populations served.
 
roseflyer
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RE: Can B6 Be The AS Of The East For AA?

Mon Oct 05, 2015 5:29 pm

I don't really think that JetBlue and American complement each other. They really compete against each other. Other than smaller airports in New York State, most of the JetBlue and American route networks overlap from JFK/LGA and MIA/FLL. There are very few routes that the two do not directly compete.

American has an alliance with AS because they don't have a strong presence in SEA or markets that AS serves. The relationship is beneficial for both since AS is smaller in areas where AA is strong. Traditionally until the DL/AS war started in SEA, the same was true for AS and DL.

Airlines don't start alliances with their biggest competitors. Airlines start alliances with airlines that serve areas where they don't have good coverage. Neither AA nor B6 increase their route network by codesharing or having an alliance. They would end up competing more fiercely because frequent flyer programs would not build loyalty to their own brand. The frequent flyer program would encourage people to choose whichever airline is cheaper and still earn miles. This completely defeats the purpose of a frequent flyer program.

I do imagine that UA and B6 could create an alliance. UA is very small in Florida and JFK/LGA/BOS. The B6 network complements them well.
If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
 
a380787
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RE: Can B6 Be The AS Of The East For AA?

Mon Oct 05, 2015 5:33 pm

Quoting EC99 (Reply 35):

You also have to look at wealth distribution not just population. Large parts of Bronx are ... well, impoverished. Only tiny pockets here and there have any discretionary spending power.
 
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N62NA
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RE: Can B6 Be The AS Of The East For AA?

Mon Oct 05, 2015 5:35 pm

Quoting a380787 (Reply 31):
Your assertion is that Manhattan based pax must use LGA/JFK

"Must" use LGA/JFK? I wrote no such thing, nor did I "imply" any such thing. And with that, I'm done dealing with you here.

Quoting EC99 (Reply 32):

As you both agree I believe, EWR has real problems for people east of the East River.

We went through this a few years ago when the PANYNJ finally released stats about people originating their travel in the NYC area and the airports they use. The report stated that a very low percentage of people east of the Hudson river cross the Hudson river to use EWR.

I encourage everyone to use the excellent a.net search feature and you can read the entire topic.
 
a380787
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RE: Can B6 Be The AS Of The East For AA?

Mon Oct 05, 2015 5:50 pm

Quoting N62NA (Reply 38):
"Must" use LGA/JFK? I wrote no such thing, nor did I "imply" any such thing. And with that, I'm done dealing with you here.

Here's your exact wording :

Quoting N62NA (Reply 26):

Aside from ORD / DEN / IAH / CLE (all hub cities BTW) out of LGA, UA will soon offer next to nothing for those travellers east of the Hudson river.

So I guess the 400+ flights to 150+ destinations at EWR is "next to nothing" in your book. I'd love to meet your political science professor to understand how he taught you to spin so well.

And I'm done with people who can't afford to live in Manhattan and yet think they know what Manhattan people want.

Quoting N62NA (Reply 38):
The report stated that a very low percentage of people east of the Hudson river cross the Hudson river to use EWR.

This is the single worst spin I've ever heard. "East of Hudson" is everything from West Side Highway to Montauk, a span of 100+ miles .... such a nice way to stretch the definition of things just to suit some agenda.

Please don't lump Manhattan with the rest of the boroughs. The distribution of wealth and discretionary spending power isn't even remotely comparable.
 
catiii
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RE: Can B6 Be The AS Of The East For AA?

Mon Oct 05, 2015 5:56 pm

Quoting N62NA (Reply 26):
Aside from ORD / DEN / IAH / CLE (all hub cities BTW) out of LGA, UA will soon offer next to nothing for those travellers east of the Hudson river.

And DL/AA etc offers next to nothing for travelers west of the Hudson by that rationale. And anyone who works in the industry knows that Manhattan is up for grabs. 25% of the traffic comes from NYC.
 
roseflyer
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RE: Can B6 Be The AS Of The East For AA?

Mon Oct 05, 2015 6:10 pm

Quoting a380787 (Reply 39):

Quoting N62NA (Reply 26):

Aside from ORD / DEN / IAH / CLE (all hub cities BTW) out of LGA, UA will soon offer next to nothing for those travellers east of the Hudson river.

So I guess the 400+ flights to 150+ destinations at EWR is "next to nothing" in your book. I'd love to meet your political science professor to understand how he taught you to spin so well.

And I'm done with people who can't afford to live in Manhattan and yet think they know what Manhattan people want.

Quoting N62NA (Reply 38):
The report stated that a very low percentage of people east of the Hudson river cross the Hudson river to use EWR.

This is the single worst spin I've ever heard. "East of Hudson" is everything from West Side Highway to Montauk, a span of 100+ miles .... such a nice way to stretch the definition of things just to suit some agenda.

Please don't lump Manhattan with the rest of the boroughs. The distribution of wealth and discretionary spending power isn't even remotely comparable.

I think it is pretty clear that if you don't live within convenient travel distance to EWR and if you prefer to fly out of LGA/JFK/HPN/ISP, then you aren't flying United unless you find a cheap bargain fare. United does not advertise much or try to attract people who live in Bronx, Queens, Brooklyn, Nassau or Westchester counties compared to Manhattan and New Jersey.

United primarily serves LGA for all the people who travel to New York from other cities. There are thousands of people who live in Chicago, Houston, Denver, etc and need to go to New York. United recognizes that only flying to EWR is not as convenient for many as LGA. LGA serves a very important city for United. However, United is not trying hard to get people who live in New York to fly out of LGA. Some will choose United, but the high spending frequent flyers have much better options. UA served JFK for years for its loyal travelers in SFO and LAX after they gave up on the local market 10 years ago. 5 years after the merger, United had convinced SFO and LAX travelers that EWR was a reasonable alternative to JFK. EWR is not always as good of an alternative to LGA.

B6, AA and DL are going after New Yorkers who like flying out of LGA and JFK. I don't think any of these three airlines particularly want to get in alliances with each other. There will always be crossover between the three airports in New York. UA and B6 are the most different. I don't think AA and B6 will get in an alliance.
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stlAV8R
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RE: Can B6 Be The AS Of The East For AA?

Mon Oct 05, 2015 6:15 pm

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 36):
most of the JetBlue and American route networks overlap from JFK/LGA

At JFK, I count (and I could be off) only 22 overlapping routes (2 because of LGA). I count 32 unique routes for AA and 51 (49 if you consider JAX and PBI for AA at LGA) for B6.

Routes served by both AA and B6:
ANU / AUS / BDA / BOS / CLT / CUN / HAV / JAX (AA at LGA only) / LAS / LAX / MCO / ORD / PAP / PBI (AA at LGA only) / PHX / PUJ / RDU / SAN / SEA / SFO / SJU / SXM

Routes unique to AA:
BCN / BHX / BNA / BWI / CCS / CDG / CLE / CMH / CVG / DCA / DFW / DUB / EDI / EGE / EZE / FCO / GIG / GRU / IND / LHR / MAD / MAN / MIA / MXP / ORF / PIT / SJO / SKB / STT / YUL / YYZ / ZRH

Routes unique to B6:
ABQ / ACK / AUA / AZS / BGI / BQN / BTV / BUF / BUR / CHS / CTG / CUR / DAB / DEN / FLL / GCM / GND / HOU / HYA / IAD / KIN / LGB / LIR / LRM / MBJ / MSY / MVY / NAS / OAK / PDX / PLS / POP / POS / PSE / PSP / PWM / RNO / ROC / RSW / SAV / SDQ / SJC / SLC / SMF / SRQ / STI / SYR / TPA / UVF

Point is, there is not a ton of overlap and this would give them a solid piece of the NYC market against DL and UA. This list doesn't even include the many cities severed by AA at LGA not served by B6. With this few overlap, I could see this as a win-win for both parties as there's about 50 cities each partner would gain between JFK and LGA.

[Edited 2015-10-05 11:58:25]
 
a380787
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RE: Can B6 Be The AS Of The East For AA?

Mon Oct 05, 2015 6:21 pm

Quoting catiii (Reply 40):

And DL/AA etc offers next to nothing for travelers west of the Hudson by that rationale. And anyone who works in the industry knows that Manhattan is up for grabs. 25% of the traffic comes from NYC.

It's way more than that. According to this official PANYNJ report, Manhattan alone accounts for nearly 37% :

www.panynj.gov/airports/pdf-traffic/JUL2015_REG.pdf (latest month published)

I don't know what's missing in that report since their pax original figures only add up to 81%. No idea what the remaining 19% is supposed to be. But if those figures are accurate, Bronx + Staten Island only provide 4.9% of pax, which is minuscule when Queens alone provide 9.5%.

Regarding the whole CT thing, the most convenient airport should actually be HPN, BDL, or PVD, depending on which part of the state. For those hedge fund folks in Southeast CT, HPN is literally right next door.

Road distances from Greenwich CT :

HPN 7mi
LGA 26mi
JFK 36mi
EWR 47mi

Road distances from NYSE Wall Street Manhattan :

LGA 13-15mi
EWR 13-15mi
JFK 20mi
 
rtalk25
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RE: Can B6 Be The AS Of The East For AA?

Mon Oct 05, 2015 6:44 pm

The only way I see AA and B6 code-sharing is if AA moved several of the PHL Europe flights up to BOS or JFK. I believe BOS might be more worthwhile, since JFK has even more competition with DL and likely any foreign competitor, and JFK has slot issues.

At BOS there is some foreign competitors on some routes, but not all, and there might be more local market than from PHL; AA might do better at BOS on O&D and have the benefit that BOS would be a shorter flight. Another important benefit is it would free AA up from using LGA/EWR/DCA slots on PHL flights.

e.g. The PHL-BRU flight becomes a BOS-BRU flight, and AA could use the help of B6 to carry pax from domestic markets like CLE, RDU and SFO, where AA might not have a domestic nonstop from BOS, to help feed AA's BOS-BRU flight.

However, with PHL in the picture and AA able to attain high fares on short-haul domestic PHL routes that have limited direct competition (e.g. PIT-PHL), AA might want to go in that direction of sabotaging that role of PHL. It could certainly keep PHL as a domestic NE hub with some Carribean and a few popular European routes, thus still being even bigger than WN at BWI, but largely domestic like WN at BWI.

What concerns me is PHL's lack of high yielding traffic, and EWR and surrounding airport proximity, in order for AA to even maintain AUS service. If AUS can't be year round, likely, the only reason these special European cities have that PHL flight is because AA lacks a true hub that is anymore Northeast.
 
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N62NA
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RE: Can B6 Be The AS Of The East For AA?

Mon Oct 05, 2015 7:34 pm

Quoting catiii (Reply 40):

And DL/AA etc offers next to nothing for travelers west of the Hudson by that rationale.

Correct. Wanna fly nonstop on DL/AA from EWR? Then your only choice is one of their hubs.

Quoting catiii (Reply 40):
And anyone who works in the industry knows that Manhattan is up for grabs. 25% of the traffic comes from NYC.
Quoting a380787 (Reply 43):
It's way more than that. According to this official PANYNJ report, Manhattan alone accounts for nearly 37% :

www.panynj.gov/airports/pdf-traffic/JUL2015_REG.pdf (latest month published)

Does the word REGION mean anything to you? Take another look at the link you provided. It is for the REGION, not EWR.

Again, for those who still have this notion that a significant amount of travellers originating their trip in Manhattan use EWR, I beg you to use the a.net search and read the topic where the actual, miniscule numbers cited in the PANYNJ survey was discussed.
 
a380787
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RE: Can B6 Be The AS Of The East For AA?

Mon Oct 05, 2015 8:06 pm

Quoting N62NA (Reply 45):
Does the word REGION mean anything to you? Take another look at the link you provided. It is for the REGION, not EWR.

??? There was no confusion. We appreciate it if you don't type in all cap, which is rude troll yelling.

We all know the search function is rather dysfunctional. If you wanna bring up some ancient data for discussoin, paste the link yourself.

[Edited 2015-10-05 13:09:04]
 
a380787
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RE: Can B6 Be The AS Of The East For AA?

Mon Oct 05, 2015 8:27 pm

Here are the real facts, using updated 2014 data, not ancient studies :

44.5% of LGA's 26.95M pax are Manhattan O&D = 11.99M

19.2% of EWR's 35.61M pax are Manhattan O&D = 6.84M

The pie split is 36/64, not the "minuscule numbers" fantasy some like to portray. For Manhattan below 14th St, it's LGA 8.00M vs. EWR 5.59M, or a slightly more balanced 41/59 split.

But of course, the impoverished parts of Manhattan above 96th St largely favors LGA/JFK over EWR.

source : PANYNJ ATR 2014 report
 
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N62NA
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RE: Can B6 Be The AS Of The East For AA?

Mon Oct 05, 2015 8:54 pm

Quoting a380787 (Reply 43):
Manhattan alone accounts for nearly 37% :
Quoting a380787 (Reply 47):
19.2% of EWR's 35.61M pax are Manhattan O&D = 6.84M

So in reply 43, it was 37%.

Now in reply 47, it is 19.2%.

Methinks you're confused.
 
a380787
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RE: Can B6 Be The AS Of The East For AA?

Mon Oct 05, 2015 9:03 pm

Quoting N62NA (Reply 48):
So in reply 43, it was 37%.

Now in reply 47, it is 19.2%.

Methinks you're confused.

I'm sorry if you can't read simple plain english correctly. 37% is Manhattan origin pax out of all NY airports. 19.2% is the O&D % of EWR alone to/from Manhattan. Those are 2 completely different metrics.

Should I rephrase that in even simpler english for you ? Stats 101, Comprehension 101, and Geography 101 are really tough courses for some.

[Edited 2015-10-05 14:06:58]
 
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N62NA
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RE: Can B6 Be The AS Of The East For AA?

Mon Oct 05, 2015 11:17 pm

Quoting a380787 (Reply 49):
I'm sorry if you can't read simple plain english correctly. 37% is Manhattan origin pax out of all NY airports. 19.2% is the O&D % of EWR alone to/from Manhattan. Those are 2 completely different metrics.

I was speaking about EWR when you then posted that 37% of the traffic from Manhattan goes to EWR. So why did you post that number in a discussion about the percentage of pax from Manhattan going to EWR?

Quoting a380787 (Reply 49):
Should I rephrase that in even simpler english for you ? Stats 101, Comprehension 101, and Geography 101 are really tough courses for some.

And of course, there you go again with the personal attacks.

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